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Don't Desert Hubble

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Scott M. Kozel - 13 Feb 2004 03:39 GMT
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040211-093526-3983r.htm

Don't desert Hubble
By Robert Zubrin
February 12, 2004

   On Jan. 16, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe announced his decision
to cancel all future space shuttle missions to the Hubble Space
Telescope, including SM4, the nearly ready-to-go flight that would have
installed the new Cosmic Origins Spectrograph and Wide Field Camera 3
instruments. This decision came atop an overall policy shift by the Bush
administration to phase out the Shuttle and International Space Station
(ISS) commitments by 2010, thereby clearing the way to redeploy their
budgets toward supporting human exploration of the moon and Mars. While
the redirection of NASA's human spaceflight program from Earth orbital
activities toward planetary exploration was a valuable step, canceling
the Hubble upgrade mission was a huge mistake.
   The Hubble Space Telescope has been the most scientifically
productive spacecraft in history. Through Hubble, we have observed
directlytheplanetary cometary impacts that drive the evolution of life,
witnessed the birth of stars that make all life possible and measured
the size and age of the universe itself. The astronaut missions that
have made this possible stand as epic achievements in the chronicles of
humanity's search for truth. How can the decision to abort such a
program be justified?
   Certainly not on the basis of cost. Given the commitment to continue
flying the shuttle program through 2010, adding the two shuttle flights
required to upgrade Hubble and then reboost it to make it operational
through 2015 would only add about $200 million to the shuttle program's
$24 billion cost, while increasing its science return by several orders
of magnitude.
   Safety arguments won't wash either. It is true that when flying to
the ISS, the crew has a safe-haven on orbit, which is not available to
Hubble flights. However, Hubble missions leave the Cape flying
east-southeast, while launches to ISS go northeast. Thus, in the event
of a launch abort, Hubble missions can ditch in warm tropical waters,
while ISS flights must come down in the frigid North Atlantic, where the
crew's chances for survival would be much less.
   Furthermore, because ISS flights take off with much heavier payloads
than Hubble flights, they require full functionality of all three
engines for nearly 100 seconds longer than Hubble missions if they are
to perform an abort-to-orbit. This makes landing in the drink on ISS
missions considerably more likely. In addition, NASA calculations show
that the danger of fatal impacts by micrometeors and orbital debris
(MMOD) to be over 60 percent greater on ISS missions than Hubble
missions. For example, on STS 113, the last shuttle station flight, the
calculated probability of loss of vehicle and crew by MMOD was 1/250. In
contrast, the last Hubble servicing mission (STS-109) had a much lower
calculated MMOD probability of 1/414. If we put this information
together with the fact that only two shuttle missions are needed to make
Hubble operational for another decade, while more than 20 are needed to
complete the ISS, it is apparent that Mr. O'Keefe's assessment that the
Hubbleprogramposes greater risk than the ISS program is nonsense.
   The decision to flee the Hubble program will cause harm far beyond
the damage it does to astronomy. In fact, it completely undermines
thepresident'scallfor human planetary exploration. Unless we are willing
to accept risks equal to, and in fact significantly greater than, those
required to upgrade the space telescope, human explorers are not going
to the moon, Mars, or anywhere else. And if we are not going to engage
in humaninterplanetary travel, then the primary rationale for the Space
Station program — learning about the effects of long-duration
spaceflight on human physiology — falls apart as well.
   The point is not that we should be blase about risk. The point is
that there are certain things that require accepting risk to achieve and
are worth the price that such a course will entail. The search for
truth, carried forward by necessarily perilous human activities in space
— whether at Hubble or on Mars — is one of them.
   In the face of massive public outrage about his decision, Mr.
O'Keefe has agreed to allow it to be reviewed by Columbia Accident
Investigation Board ChairmanAdm.Hal Gehman. Hopefully, Mr. Gehman will
rectify the situation. But if he does not, then Congress will have to
act. Lawmakers will have to take action, because ultimately the question
of whether we do what it takes to keep our eyes open upon the heavens is
not one of the technicalities of shuttle flight safety, but of societal
values.
   The desertion of Hubble is an offense against science and
civilization. It represents a departure from the pioneer spirit, and its
ratification as policy would preclude any possibility of a human future
in space. It is an inexcusable decision, and it needs to be reversed.
   
   Robert Zubrin is president of the Mars Society and author of the
books "The Case for Mars," "Entering Space" and "Mars on Earth."

[end of article]

--
Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com
Brian Gaff - 13 Feb 2004 08:46 GMT
Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for the
cancellations yet. Lots of words, but no arguable reason for it.

so, what is the reason?

I imagine that if, and I hope when you get a new President, things will be
sorted out.

I also think that Nasa will be ill advised to spend too much money on the
Shrubs plans, as if a new broom gets in, things may change.... yet again...
sigh....

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
____________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________
JimO - 13 Feb 2004 14:28 GMT
> I also think that Nasa will be ill advised to spend too much money on the
> Shrubs plans, as if a new broom gets in, things may change.... yet again...
> sigh....

Brian, thanks for characterizing yourself so clearly by your contemptuous
language.
Brett Buck - 13 Feb 2004 18:08 GMT
> Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for the
> cancellations yet. Lots of words, but no arguable reason for it.
>
> so, what is the reason?

   Seems perfectly simple and well-defined to me. No on-orbit repair
capability because it's too expensive, no ready rescue flight because
it's too expensive, so all shuttle flight go to ISS as a safe haven.

   What's so hard to understand about that?

   Brett
Chosp - 13 Feb 2004 22:12 GMT
> > Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for the
> > cancellations yet. Lots of words, but no arguable reason for it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>     What's so hard to understand about that?

A whole lot - because it is false.

The CAIB report REQUIRES on-orbit repair capability even on trips
to the ISS (because of the possibility of abort-to-orbit scenarios
which cannot reach the ISS. Therefore it is NOT too expensive -
because they are doing it anyway.

It has not been demonstrated that the ISS is any real "safe haven".
There are questions about the Russians ability to make Soyuz capsules
fast enough to offload enough stranded astronauts if something goes
wrong with the ISS.  Problems with the systems aboard the ISS (in its
current configuration) will greatly increase as they are overdriven by
having nine astronauts aboard.  If an approaching Progress supply craft
goes bump in the night - there is no place left to go.

Flights to the ISS are more stressful to the Shuttle than would be a
flight to Hubble. The payloads are heavier; the inclination requires
more fuel and a longer burn time - all of which add more risk
to such a mission than to a mission to Hubble.

Before the Shuttle launches again it will have a boom extension for
its arm (which was already being developed by Canadarm for
the ISS to enable it to reach all the expected additional components);
some form of repair capability and the means to reach anywhere
on the Shuttle.  This will be the case whether it goes to the ISS or
not.
Charles Buckley - 13 Feb 2004 22:15 GMT
>>>Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> which cannot reach the ISS. Therefore it is NOT too expensive -
> because they are doing it anyway.

  The CAIB does state that the repair kit can be positioned at
ISS..

  Big difference there..

> It has not been demonstrated that the ISS is any real "safe haven".
> There are questions about the Russians ability to make Soyuz capsules
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> on the Shuttle.  This will be the case whether it goes to the ISS or
> not.
Brian Thorn - 13 Feb 2004 22:25 GMT
>    Seems perfectly simple and well-defined to me. No on-orbit repair
>capability because it's too expensive, no ready rescue flight because
>it's too expensive, so all shuttle flight go to ISS as a safe haven.
>
>    What's so hard to understand about that?

The "no ready rescue flight because it's too expensive" part. It would
be inconvenient (to ISS) but not particularly expensive.

Brian
Brett Buck - 13 Feb 2004 23:28 GMT
>>   Seems perfectly simple and well-defined to me. No on-orbit repair
>>capability because it's too expensive, no ready rescue flight because
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The "no ready rescue flight because it's too expensive" part. It would
> be inconvenient (to ISS) but not particularly expensive.

   Pretty expensive for a mission that was going to end relatively soon
in any case.

     Brett
Brian Thorn - 14 Feb 2004 03:25 GMT
>>>   What's so hard to understand about that?

>> The "no ready rescue flight because it's too expensive" part. It would
>> be inconvenient (to ISS) but not particularly expensive.

>    Pretty expensive for a mission that was going to end relatively soon
>in any case.

I don't follow... we've already spent a small fortune on SM-4, and the
replacement equipment already exists. So SM-4 by itself doesn't
present a particularly great cost to NASA. The big costs will be the
RCC repair technology, and NASA has essentially said SM-4 isn't worth
that cost. That puts the ball in Congress' court: they either have to
tell NASA to waive the CAIB recommendation or cough up the funding for
the repairs.

The rescue Shuttle would simply be the next scheduled Shuttle launch,
with some preparation to allow quick offloading of the ISS hardware
and loading of Shuttle/Shuttle rendezvous software. NASA holds the
SM-4 Shuttle until the ISS Shuttle is on the other pad a week or two
away from launch.

This is a scheduling inconvenience to be sure, but the history of the
Shuttle is replete with scheduling problems. What's one more?

Brian
Charles Buckley - 14 Feb 2004 15:11 GMT
>>>>  What's so hard to understand about that?
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> tell NASA to waive the CAIB recommendation or cough up the funding for
> the repairs.

  The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
for Hubble. Throw in all the associated non-recoverable launch
costs and an additional 2-3 months of Shuttle workforce and their
associated salaries..  If they don't fly SM-4, they can close
shop on the entire Shuttle infrastructure 2-3 months earlier than
otherwise. You are seriously looking at a mission that represents
potentially billions of dollars when you look at it as extending
the life of a program beyond a certain date. If they can close shop
on Dec 31 2009 without flying SM-4, but Mar 31 2010 with SM-4, what
are the associated costs of SM-4? It's about 1 billion dollars.

  The last sentence you stated is the important one. This is a
political,not technical decision and NASA is putting it back onto
Congress to be *consistant*. NASA just got crucified  for not following
basic safety requirements and now they are getting flamed for
not waiving those requirements when something "important" comes
along.

> The rescue Shuttle would simply be the next scheduled Shuttle launch,
> with some preparation to allow quick offloading of the ISS hardware
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This is a scheduling inconvenience to be sure, but the history of the
> Shuttle is replete with scheduling problems. What's one more?

  The drop-dead date for Shuttle is 2010. They don't really have
any room for slippage.
Jorge R. Frank - 14 Feb 2004 18:17 GMT
>    The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
> for Hubble.

Hmm? I'd sure like to see some sources for that. I've seen quotes of $200
million for the instruments alone on SM-4, let alone the gyros. That's at
least three ETs right there. And most of that $200 million has *already*
been spent.

>    The last sentence you stated is the important one. This is a
> political,not technical decision and NASA is putting it back onto
> Congress to be *consistant*.

You might want to tell O'Keefe that. He's certainly painting this as a
technical (specifically, crew safety) decision. Congress has every right to
override a political decision, but they would be understandably reluctant
to override a technical decision.

> NASA just got crucified  for not following
> basic safety requirements and now they are getting flamed for
> not waiving those requirements when something "important" comes
> along.

No waiving of requirements is necessary. The CAIB certainly had no
intention of painting NASA into a corner such that they couldn't service
HST. Dr. Osheroff has already spoken up on that particular issue.

(Hint: Read chapter 10 of the CAIB report. There is *no* requirement for
ISS safe haven, nor a rescue shuttle for non-ISS missions.)

>    The drop-dead date for Shuttle is 2010. They don't really have
> any room for slippage.

They have about 18 months, actually, based on the last manifest published
before the new space policy was announced.
Signature

JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

Charles Buckley - 14 Feb 2004 19:32 GMT
>>   The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
>>for Hubble.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> override a political decision, but they would be understandably reluctant
> to override a technical decision.

  All of that comes from the CAIB. The CAIB is a political document.
The reality of the situation is simple: If there was no huge backlog
of ISS components, Shuttle would be grounded today. The decision to
fly this this at all is a political decision. The crew safety issue
is equally valid for both ISS and Hubble, but what most people keep
missing is that applying the same standard to both ISS and non-ISS
flights would more likely result in no flights to either than flights
to both.

  He has a clear mandate to override the core safety requirements
for ISS. Not Hubble.

>>NASA just got crucified  for not following
>>basic safety requirements and now they are getting flamed for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (Hint: Read chapter 10 of the CAIB report. There is *no* requirement for
> ISS safe haven, nor a rescue shuttle for non-ISS missions.)

  There are other clauses though that do factor in. The requirement is
for a risk assessment to be done which would meet certain requirements.
Simply put: with a 98% safety record, they can't meet the limits.
In Chapter 10  2.5.4.1 and 2.5.4.2. The specific numbers associated
with the standards set really require outside capability - ie rescue
or repair - to accomplish.

  If NASA were to slap down a 99% success rate for continued flights,
how will they go about it?

>>   The drop-dead date for Shuttle is 2010. They don't really have
>>any room for slippage.
>
> They have about 18 months, actually, based on the last manifest published
> before the new space policy was announced.

http://www.caib.us/news/report/pdf/vol1/chapters/chapter6.pdf

Start with findings F6.2-1 through F6.2-7 and the recommendation
that follows. They are extremely critical of NASA's scheduling

18 months is a grand total of what? 5 or 6 launches? Assuming no
slippage of any kind on anything in the pipeline. Figure on that
4-5 launch a year schedule for 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009.
20-25 remaining launches.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/future/

It shows 25 remaining ISS flights.

Then, go to recommendation R6.4-1. That is the killer. That is the
item that would have to be waivered for a Shuttle flight. The
immediate goal of on-orbit inspection can be met, but they specifically
include ISS assets in meeting those goals while non-ISS missions
have to have independant capability. The ultimate goal portion
is waiverable on ISS missions because they can use ISS assets near
term and they are not going to be flying this beyond a short time
related to finishing ISS construction.  But, NASA isn't going to
waiver that for flights that are not going to go to ISS since there
is no way to fudge the numbers by applying ISS capabilities to the
safety rating for the mission.

The devil is in the details here.  NASA has a very short critical time
frame to accomplish it's primary mission with Shuttle. It has
a pretty specific requirement in terms of repair capability and
safety rating. It has a CAIB very critical of a schedule with no room
for slippage. NASA has a very clear mandate from it's boss to
complete ISS. It has nothing for Hubble. With the political fallout
from Columbia, there is no chance they are going to stick their
necks out on Hubble without the decision being imposed from the outside.
O'Keefe is hitting the technical details and that is going to be
his tack. If Congress or the President directs NASA to go thru
with the Hubble recovery, then they have assumed the liability for
it.
Brian Thorn - 15 Feb 2004 01:10 GMT
>18 months is a grand total of what? 5 or 6 launches? Assuming no
>slippage of any kind on anything in the pipeline. Figure on that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>It shows 25 remaining ISS flights.

You forgot 2010 itself. 4-5 more launches, or almost a year of backup
time. I don't think 2005 will get 5 launches though. 3-4 at best,
since RTF is likely now in March, 2005.

Brian
Jorge R. Frank - 15 Feb 2004 05:00 GMT
>>>   The last sentence you stated is the important one. This is a
>>>political,not technical decision and NASA is putting it back onto
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>    He has a clear mandate to override the core safety requirements
> for ISS. Not Hubble.

A clear mandate from the *president*. But the president does not have sole
responsibility for policy decisions. Congress, via its power of the purse,
shares this responsibility. Painting this as purely a technical decision
rather than a policy decision would be a good way to make Congress
reluctant to step in and exercise their policy oversight responsibilities.

>>>NASA just got crucified  for not following
>>>basic safety requirements and now they are getting flamed for
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> for a risk assessment to be done which would meet certain
> requirements. Simply put: with a 98% safety record,

98% only if you include 51L. The particular failure mode in that accident
has since been designed out.

> they can't meet
> the limits. In Chapter 10  2.5.4.1 and 2.5.4.2. The specific numbers
> associated with the standards set really require outside capability -
> ie rescue or repair - to accomplish.

Or standalone repair (see below).

>    If NASA were to slap down a 99% success rate for continued flights,
> how will they go about it?

Simply solving the ET foam-shedding problem should be sufficient, and is
something they are already required to do prior to return-to-flight (R3.2-
1).

> Then, go to recommendation R6.4-1. That is the killer. That is the
> item that would have to be waivered for a Shuttle flight. The
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> near term and they are not going to be flying this beyond a short time
> related to finishing ISS construction.

That was not the CAIB's intent. If NASA thinks that cancelling non-ISS
flights will let them wriggle out of the standalone repair requirement,
they are in for a confrontation with the CAIB. If NASA intends to fulfill
every CAIB recommendation - as they have publicly pledged to do - then they
will have to develop standalone repair capability anyway.

(And as it turns out, NASA's solution for ISS-based repair will only work
up to flight ISS-1J, and the most promising solution for ISS flights
*after* 1J will also work for *standalone* repair. So the argument is moot
- if NASA wants to complete ISS beyond 1J, they will be developing
standalone repair anyway.)

If there's *any* wriggle room for waiving a CAIB recommendation, in fact,
it's probably with R9.2-1, the recertification requirement that resulted in
the 2010 retirement date for the fleet. If NASA starts running into
schedule pressure to complete ISS by the end of 2010, the CAIB would much
rather let NASA waive R9.2-1 and let some flights slip into 2011, than rush
the schedule at the end and raise the risk of an accident, or waste
billions on a recertification that will only apply to a handful of flights.

Or to put it more simply, if R9.2-1 and R6.2-1 collide, R6.2-1 will win.

> With the political fallout
> from Columbia, there is no chance they are going to stick their
> necks out on Hubble without the decision being imposed from the
> outside. O'Keefe is hitting the technical details and that is going to
> be his tack.

Wouldn't that be deceptive? This is a policy decision about risk-vs-reward,
not a technical decision about risk alone. The latter is entirely within
O'Keefe's authority while the former belongs jointly to the president and
Congress.

> If Congress or the President directs NASA to go thru
> with the Hubble recovery, then they have assumed the liability for
> it.

Congress directed NASA to go thru with STS-107 in the first place (see CAIB
vol. 1 p. 27) and yet practically no one has suggested they assume
liability for it.  Missions to ISS, missions to HST, missions to the moon,
missions to Mars - all carry risks and rewards. Lunar and Mars missions are
both far riskier than a mission to HST. A mission to HST may be marginally
riskier than a mission to ISS.

The reward... well, suffice to say that's a matter of perception, and
O'Keefe's perception is not the only one that matters.

Signature

JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

Chosp - 15 Feb 2004 10:23 GMT
>    The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
> for Hubble.

References, please?
Karl Hallowell - 15 Feb 2004 18:05 GMT
> >    The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
> > for Hubble.
>
> References, please?

Funny about that. I've heard that the ET *and reburshing solid
boosters* cost $114 or so million in 1997.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cost+ET+%22solid+rocket+boosters%22&hl=en&lr=&
ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=5rej3f%24ot6%40usenet78.supernews.com&rnum=1


Meanwhile as Chosp mentions in this post, there is $180 million cost
with the replacement equipment for the Hubble telescope.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=c582c1e3.040
1311024.3efcdcc%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dhallowell%2Bhubbl
e%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dc582c1e3.0401311024.3efcd
cc%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1


Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
reference old USENET posts.

Karl Hallowell
khallow@hotmail.com
Jorge R. Frank - 15 Feb 2004 18:17 GMT
> Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> reference old USENET posts.

http://www.makeashorterlink.com/
http://tinyurl.com/

Signature

JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

Bootstrap Bill - 15 Feb 2004 18:47 GMT
> > Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> > reference old USENET posts.
>
> http://www.makeashorterlink.com/
> http://tinyurl.com/

One problem. The Google archives may last for centuries, if not longer. Will
tinyurl.com or makeashorterlink.com last as long? I recommend using both,
just in case these services go under.
Scott M. Kozel - 15 Feb 2004 19:36 GMT
> > > Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> > > reference old USENET posts.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> tinyurl.com or makeashorterlink.com last as long? I recommend using both,
> just in case these services go under.

TinyURL claims that they are permanent.
Bootstrap Bill - 15 Feb 2004 20:18 GMT
> > > > Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> > > > reference old USENET posts.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> TinyURL claims that they are permanent.

So they say, but what will happen to their database if/when they go
bankrupt? Their income seems to be coming from advertising links on thier
web site. What happens when the next Internet depression hits?
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 15 Feb 2004 20:30 GMT
> > > > Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> > > > reference old USENET posts.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> TinyURL claims that they are permanent.

Ayup.  And I know one company we wanted to continue renting rack space from
didn't want our business because they wanted a more established company like
Enron.  Hmm... last I checked, we're still paying our bills on time with
that company's competition.  I don't think Enron still is.

Permanent is as long as the money doesn't run out.
Scott M. Kozel - 15 Feb 2004 23:30 GMT
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:

> > "Bootstrap Bill" <wrcousert@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Permanent is as long as the money doesn't run out.

Very long URLs are usually associated with newspaper articles and Google
archive posts, neither which is by any means permanent (Deja News was
bought by Google several years ago, and someone else may eventually buy
the Google archive).  

In a Usenet discussion, TinyURL does fine, IMO, as far as any realistic
definition of "permanent" goes with respect to URLs changing or being
deleted.
Sander Vesik - 16 Feb 2004 14:26 GMT
In sci.space.policy "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:

> Permanent is as long as the money doesn't run out.

But this equally applies to tinyurl and google.

Signature

    Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Paul Blay - 16 Feb 2004 15:15 GMT
> In sci.space.policy "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
> >
> > Permanent is as long as the money doesn't run out.
>
> But this equally applies to tinyurl and google.

That applies _unequally_ to tinyurl and google.

Let's put a little (fictional) money on it to make this more interesting.

Suppose both you and I inherit 10,000 pounds from an eccentric gambler.
These ammounts of money are placed into separate numbered bank accounts
and the solicitor Mr. Google is given the account information to both to hand
over to the relevant party when contacted.

I'm told how to find Mr. Google, but you're only given Mr TinyUrl's
contact details.  Don't worry though because he can put you in contact with
Mr. Google.

However there's a catch - when contacted by either me or you both
Mr. Google and Mr TinyUrl have been instructed to roll a fair six sided
die.  If they get a 1 they have been instructed to refuse to divulge
their information to that particular person contacting them. Then, and
thereafter.

Which of us got the better deal?
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 17 Feb 2004 00:24 GMT
> In sci.space.policy "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
> >
> > Permanent is as long as the money doesn't run out.
>
> But this equally applies to tinyurl and google.

Yes, but now you're entering a second failure point.  In any case I was just
commenting on the use of the word permanent.

Nothing truly is and in the dotcom world even less so.
Andrew Gray - 15 Feb 2004 18:46 GMT
> Funny about that. I've heard that the ET *and reburshing solid
> boosters* cost $114 or so million in 1997.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> reference old USENET posts.

Message-IDs.

Your post, if you look in the headers, had
 Message-ID: <c582c1e3.0402151005.142e52d@posting.google.com>
- this is a unique identifier, and wll pick that post out of a
database. Handily, it's also what Google uses as its reference method..
if you look at a Google Groups search, try to pick out the string
starting "selm=..." - the ... is the message-ID.

So, your first link... let's look at it.

> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cost+ET+%22solid+rocket+boosters%22
> &hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=5rej3f%24ot6%40usenet78.supernews.
> com&rnum=1

[& seperates strings]

http://groups.google.com/groups? - is fairly critical :-)

q=cost+ET+%22solid+rocket+boosters%22 - is your search string - we've
got a result, but it keeps the search string so it can highlight the
words you're looking for. It can go. (%22 = ", I assume)

hl=en - in English, but this is the default...
lr= - dunno, but it's not even set to anything
ie=UTF-8
oe=UTF-8 - not sure what either of these do; character-set? Both are on
defaults, anyway...

selm=5rej3f%24ot6%40usenet78.supernews.com - this is it! This string
uniquely identifies the post you're quoting... the %40 is an @ sign.

rnum=1 - I never did work out what this one does.

So, your first link condenses down to

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5rej3f%24ot6%40usenet78.supernews.com

(If you really want, you can shave a few more characters by cutting
//groups.google.com/ to //google.com/, but...)

Simple, really... thanks for the data, BTW ;-)

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Gary W. Swearingen - 16 Feb 2004 07:23 GMT
>> >    The ET tanks alone costs more than the replacement equipment
>> > for Hubble.
>>
>> References, please?

[snip]
> Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> reference old USENET posts.

All articles should have "Message-ID" header with an ID with which
newsreaders should be able to grab the article, until your news
server drops it, after which you can get it using the "Message ID"
field of "http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search".

This article has two IDs in the quote and one in the header.

It's probably not quite as reliable as the long Google URL, because
it's subject to duplication, but it's sure a lot shorter.
Paul Blay - 16 Feb 2004 10:17 GMT
> Meanwhile as Chosp mentions in this post, there is $180 million cost
> with the replacement equipment for the Hubble telescope.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=c582c1e3.040
1311024.3efcdcc%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dhallowell%2Bhubbl
e%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dc582c1e3.0401311024.3efcd
cc%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D1


> Sorry about the long Google links. But don't know of a better way to
> reference old USENET posts.

Don't be sorry, learn to trim.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=kTHSb.33560%24F15.19732%40fed1read06

Who needs a tiny url?  That should be one line on practically anybody's newsreader.
Explorer8939 - 14 Feb 2004 00:14 GMT
I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the
ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is stranded at
ISS, and something goes wrong with the next Progress that is required
to keep the 10 person crew going? Is the ISS safe haven truly 2 fault
tolerant?

> > Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for the
> > cancellations yet. Lots of words, but no arguable reason for it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     Brett
Charles Buckley - 14 Feb 2004 00:35 GMT
> I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the
> ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is stranded at
> ISS, and something goes wrong with the next Progress that is required
> to keep the 10 person crew going? Is the ISS safe haven truly 2 fault
> tolerant?

  Because, the 3 remaining shuttles are all going to be in
rotation and an accelarated launch would have the next shuttle
going up within a few weeks..

  And, ATV and Progress gives 2 resupply vehicles possible.

>>>Hmm, I have not seen anywhere any detailed, data supported reasons for the
>>>cancellations yet. Lots of words, but no arguable reason for it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>>    Brett
Jorge R. Frank - 14 Feb 2004 00:54 GMT
> I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the
> ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is stranded at
> ISS, and something goes wrong with the next Progress that is required
> to keep the 10 person crew going? Is the ISS safe haven truly 2 fault
> tolerant?

I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the LM
lifeboat concept for Apollo. What if the Service Module suffers a massive
systems failure, and something goes wrong with the LM that is required to
land on the moon?  Is Apollo truly 2 fault tolerant?

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Scott M. Kozel - 14 Feb 2004 03:20 GMT
> > I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the
> > ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is stranded at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> systems failure, and something goes wrong with the LM that is required to
> land on the moon?  Is Apollo truly 2 fault tolerant?

The Apollo CSM/LM last flew over 30 years ago.  How is that system
relevant to today?

--
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Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
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Jorge R. Frank - 14 Feb 2004 03:41 GMT
>> > I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking
>> > the ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The Apollo CSM/LM last flew over 30 years ago.  How is that system
> relevant to today?

Because no manned spacecraft, past or present, is fully two fault tolerant.
Oh sure, they may be two fault tolerant in some systems, but not in all.
It's simply impractical. I believe no manned spacecraft will be *fully* two
fault tolerant in my lifetime. If Explorer8939 wishes to see a fully two
fault tolerant spacecraft, I suggest he take some sleeping pills, lie down,
and dream about them. That's the only place he'll see them in *his*
lifetime, either.

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George William Herbert - 14 Feb 2004 09:39 GMT
>The Apollo CSM/LM last flew over 30 years ago.  How is that system
>relevant to today?

No currently flying system is going to evolve into the future
US manned spaceflight system.  As such, the age of anything
is irrelevant to the discussion.

Any feature from any past vehicle which appears to support
the new mission requirements is valid for consideration.
As are unflown but previously or newly proposed features.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Explorer8939 - 14 Feb 2004 15:16 GMT
There is no question that the NASA of today is less risk tolerant than
the NASA of the Apollo era.

> > I have to say that I am surprised how lightly everyone is taking the
> > ISS safe haven concept for Shuttle. What if a Shuttle is stranded at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> systems failure, and something goes wrong with the LM that is required to
> land on the moon?  Is Apollo truly 2 fault tolerant?
Jorge R. Frank - 14 Feb 2004 18:01 GMT
> There is no question that the NASA of today is less risk tolerant than
> the NASA of the Apollo era.

As is the rest of the country. A disease we will have to get over if we are
ever to go beyond LEO again.

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jeff findley - 16 Feb 2004 16:15 GMT
> > There is no question that the NASA of today is less risk tolerant than
> > the NASA of the Apollo era.
>
> As is the rest of the country. A disease we will have to get over if we are
> ever to go beyond LEO again.

One only has to examine something like cars to see that this is true.
Look at the availability and cost of "safety" equipment on cars in
the 60's and compare that to the availability and cost of "safety"
equipment today.  In that time span we've even passed laws *requiring*
the use of seat belts.

The law making US public is very risk averse.

Jeff
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dave schneider - 17 Feb 2004 06:01 GMT
[...]
> One only has to examine something like cars to see that this is true.
> Look at the availability and cost of "safety" equipment on cars in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jeff

And one only has to note that more people die in automobiles than in
planes, that more people are maimed in automobiles than in combat,
that many of the victims are small children, and that driving
conditions are often worse than they were in the 1960's (higher
traffic density, longer commutes, more construction projects and more
worn out infrastructure), and I'm really amazed at the bravery of
people who take classic cars onto the freeway.

/dps
Ool - 17 Feb 2004 12:31 GMT
> And one only has to note that more people die in automobiles than in
> planes, that more people are maimed in automobiles than in combat,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> worn out infrastructure), and I'm really amazed at the bravery of
> people who take classic cars onto the freeway.

They do it because it's their patriotic duty to put their lives on the
line for the good and the wealth of the nation.  But I don't expect
the likes of *you* to understand!

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jeff findley - 17 Feb 2004 15:08 GMT
> And one only has to note that more people die in automobiles than in
> planes, that more people are maimed in automobiles than in combat,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> worn out infrastructure), and I'm really amazed at the bravery of
> people who take classic cars onto the freeway.

In addition to seat belts, they also tend to lack collapsible steering
columns and padded instrument panels.  Not only were you not
restrained in even a minor crash, but you would slam into the hard
dash or steering column.

Safety in automobiles didn't become a real priority until well after
the Apollo program was underway.  See Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at Any
Speed", originally published in 1965.  Action came in 1966 with the
passing of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966
and the Highway Safety Act of 1966.  The Apollo 1 fire was in January
of 1967.  Subsequent investigations found many safety issues in the
Block 1 Apollos that needed to be fixed.

Jeff
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Paul Blay - 17 Feb 2004 15:32 GMT
> In addition to seat belts, they also tend to lack collapsible steering
> columns and padded instrument panels.  Not only were you not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> passing of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966
> and the Highway Safety Act of 1966.

I understand that the US car safety developments went along a rather
different path to the UK.  For example wearing seatbelts is the law
in the UK - air bags are primarily designed to provide additional
protection for someone wearing a seatbelt.

In contrast (OSIMVR) US airbags are 'overpowered' to better
protect people _not_ wearing seatbelts and have been associated
with injuries such as damage to hearing.
jeff findley - 17 Feb 2004 16:01 GMT
> I understand that the US car safety developments went along a rather
> different path to the UK.  For example wearing seatbelts is the law
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> protect people _not_ wearing seatbelts and have been associated
> with injuries such as damage to hearing.

While this was true in the past, it's largely changed now.  All states
in the US have seat belt laws (details and enforcement rules vary
state to state) and newer airbags are either "depowered" or have more
than one firing strength for different situations.

Jeff
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Paul Blay - 17 Feb 2004 16:18 GMT
> > In contrast (OSIMVR) US airbags are 'overpowered' to better
> > protect people _not_ wearing seatbelts and have been associated
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> state to state) and newer airbags are either "depowered" or have more
> than one firing strength for different situations.

Hmm, interesting.

How are you doing on bull bars (cow catchers) over there?  

These charming devices are typically fitted to four wheel cars that never
see a hint of countryside so they a) look nice and b) can fatally mow
down pedestrians without getting the headlights or bumpers damaged.

I think the current state is that if they are already banned for sale fitted
on new cars - but I'm not sure as to whether it is legal to fit them after
car purchase or not.

A randomme google search found a fascinating glimpse into the workings
of the House of Lords on this subject here
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199596/ldhansrd/vo960117/
text/60117-08.htm

jeff findley - 17 Feb 2004 16:39 GMT
> > > In contrast (OSIMVR) US airbags are 'overpowered' to better
> > > protect people _not_ wearing seatbelts and have been associated
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> How are you doing on bull bars (cow catchers) over there?

I've no idea, but I see quite a few of them.  They're among one of the
many, largely useless, "mods" done by owners of SUV's in the US.
Leave it to Americans to take a largely useless vehicle (most SUV's
*never* see off-road use in the US) and make it heavier, less
efficient, and more dangerous to pedestrians.

Of course, I drive around in an old, full size '93 Chevy G20 (3/4 ton)
conversion van.  It's got a 33 gallon gas tank and gets 14mpg in mixed
city/highway driving.  It's big enough for my family of five to take
"anywhere".  Our other car is a much more sensible 2004 Pontiac Vibe
(a twin of the Toyota Corolla Matrix), but it's just not big enough
even for trips to the hardware store with the wife and three kids, so
the "big Van" gets driven quite a bit.

Jeff
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Herb Schaltegger - 17 Feb 2004 17:33 GMT
> How are you doing on bull bars (cow catchers) over there?

Here they're typically called "brush guards."

> These charming devices are typically fitted to four wheel cars that never
> see a hint of countryside so they a) look nice and b) can fatally mow
> down pedestrians without getting the headlights or bumpers damaged.

a) Correct

b) Umm . . . no, they're usually much more aesthetic than functional
(although there are exceptions, of course) and,due to the way most of them
mount to the frame or worse, bumper, anything striking them much higher
than the mounting points will bend them back quite easily, often damaging
the car quite sufficiently in the process.  Hence the term "brush guards"
because anything much more sturdy than a very young sapling will ruin most
of them.

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Paul Blay - 18 Feb 2004 09:33 GMT
> > How are you doing on bull bars (cow catchers) over there?
>
> Here they're typically called "brush guards."

There they are, from the following description, apparently completely different
devices.

> > These charming devices are typically fitted to four wheel cars that never
> > see a hint of countryside so they a) look nice and b) can fatally mow
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> because anything much more sturdy than a very young sapling will ruin most
> of them.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199596/ldhansrd/vo960117/
text/60117-08.htm


"The TRL* has publicly stated that its best estimate is that something like 35 deaths
per year and 350 serious injuries are caused directly by bull bars."

"Studies in Germany indicate that whereas most children would survive an
impact with a vehicle at 20 miles an hour, life threatening injuries are sustained
at just 12 miles an hour when bull bars are fitted."

* Transport Research Laboratory
Jonathan Silverlight - 18 Feb 2004 19:36 GMT
>> > How are you doing on bull bars (cow catchers) over there?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>are sustained
>at just 12 miles an hour when bull bars are fitted."

I should know more about what happens in "my" country, but did they ever
get around to banning them, or did they cave in to the road lobby as
usual?
I'm not hopeful, because killing a child apparently isn't a crime if
you're a motorist.
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Andrew Gray - 19 Feb 2004 00:34 GMT
> I should know more about what happens in "my" country, but did they ever
> get around to banning them, or did they cave in to the road lobby as
> usual?
> I'm not hopeful, because killing a child apparently isn't a crime if
> you're a motorist.

You can, as an optomistic journalist points out every now and again, be
tried for murder in a motoring fatality; it's be a rather cunning weapon
to use, otherwise ;-)

I used to walk past Range Rovers and the like with large shiny bars on
the front (outside a school, on a road thronged with pedestrians, to go
two miles...) in the past couple of years; if memory served, they banned
the more excessive versions (the heavier-mounted ones, AIUI), on the
grounds that this would at least increase survivability. I don't know
people silly enough to own these things, though [1], so I never actually
enquired...

[1] well, plenty of people who own big rusting Land Rovers &c, but
that's Different...

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Jonathan Silverlight - 19 Feb 2004 08:20 GMT
>> I should know more about what happens in "my" country, but did they ever
>> get around to banning them, or did they cave in to the road lobby as
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>tried for murder in a motoring fatality; it's be a rather cunning weapon
>to use, otherwise ;-)

ISTR a senior policeman saying that he was sure it _had_ been used more
than once. Has anyone ever been tried in such a case? It's like the
other possible offence of "motor manslaughter" (and why the distinction
?)
As we leaned in another case, if you kill ten people and smash two
trains from pure negligence, without any remorse, you _still_ don't get
the maximum sentence (which isn't life)
Sorry, but this is my favourite rant :-)
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Mark - 19 Feb 2004 14:58 GMT
> I'm not hopeful, because killing a child apparently isn't a crime if
> you're a motorist.

Well, it's one way to clear out the gene pool...

I can't speak for anyone else, but certainly when I was a kid I met
one guy at my school who got his kicks from lying in the road right
after a blind corner where  a car rounding the corner could hardly
avoid killing him if he was there, and one who used to enjoy running
across a busy four-lane highway. If parents let their kids do things
like that, they can hardly expect them to live long: no idea whether
either of them made it to their teens.

   Mark
Andrew Gray - 19 Feb 2004 00:25 GMT
>> These charming devices are typically fitted to four wheel cars that never
>> see a hint of countryside so they a) look nice and b) can fatally mow
>> down pedestrians without getting the headlights or bumpers damaged.
>
> a) Correct

I am reminded of the story of the first cow catcher... on a very early
steam locomotive, built by a US blacksmith from parts shipped across the
Atlantic. Whilst he had perfectly good instructions, he'd never actually
seen one, and was moved to add a few improvements of his own... among
them, a grille at the front.

The validity of this is debatable, of course, but it seems quite
plausible (and they've been around long enough!)

> b) Umm . . . no, they're usually much more aesthetic than functional
> (although there are exceptions, of course) and,due to the way most of them
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> because anything much more sturdy than a very young sapling will ruin most
> of them.

Oh, no doubt they will be ruined. If one hits me, though, I'm going to
be a deal more ruined. ("so, you can take the impact distributed over
about a foot of the lower abdomen, or you can take it on three single
points..."). I have a vested interest in making sure that these idiots
[1] given the keys to quarter-tons of speeding metal don't provide
themselves with cosmetic - or un-necessary - "safety equipment" that has
limited use to them but less limited detriments to the rest of us. One
of those summing-effects-over-the-population thing.

(I've seen analyses that suggest they're a greater hazard to cyclists,
as well; the sizing is about right to "entangle" a bike if it hits at
the wrong angle, which is thoroughly bad for all participants - the
bike, the rider, the car. All this is reading and so forth; I've never
heavily studied the issue, and IANA engineer or trauma medico...)

[1] I use the term advisedly; the three times I've almost been seriously
injured by near-misses that stick in my mind involved, respectively, a
driver failing to be able to differentiate between a pedestrian crossing
signal and a traffic light; a driver *overtaking, round a blind corner,
on a hill*; and the inspired gentleman who blazed through a traffic
crossing, came within a pace of me in the middle of the road, and failed
all the time to notice the nice clearly marked poliscar on the facing
side paying somewhat interested attention... lights change, hang a
u-turn, pull up beside him (now stopped in traffic further down)... ah,
a sweet moment. Um. This turned into a rant, didn't it? Sorry. I'm happy
with the good drivers, but sadly the rest still drive...

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Mary Shafer - 22 Feb 2004 06:30 GMT
> Oh, no doubt they will be ruined. If one hits me, though, I'm going to
> be a deal more ruined. ("so, you can take the impact distributed over
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> limited use to them but less limited detriments to the rest of us. One
> of those summing-effects-over-the-population thing.

Quarter-ton?  You're talking about a motorcycle?  

An SUV weighs something like 1.5-2 tons.  Easily.  My '70 GTO weighed
3,000 lb, after all.

Mary

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Ad absurdum per aspera - 05 Mar 2004 16:38 GMT
> An SUV weighs something like 1.5-2 tons.  Easily.  

Or more.

A loose definition of classes may be found at
http://www.vehicle-injuries.com/nhtsa_faq.htm#iq5

Even what is considered a subcompact in the US is going to scare the
heck out of one ton by the time some options, a tank of gas, and the
people are put in.  Three thousand is, I'd guess, pretty mainstream
for the curb weight of a US passenger car these days (it was fairly
light for the early 70s, by which time the GTO was based on an
intermediate again after a few years as a pretty big car).

Four thousand is to be expected of a luxury car today... or of some
surprisingly small SUVs that are robustly built (and have the weight
penalty of the 4WD equipment).

The most extreme SUVs weigh a lot more -- says here that the Hummer H2
has a curb weight of 6400 pounds, the Ford Excursion around 7000.
Though of course they're often bought simply because it's the fad to
drive one, some people really use 'em for work or play at least some
of the time, in which case you might add as much as another ton for
payload.

Cheers,
--Joe
Explorer8939 - 17 Feb 2004 14:08 GMT
> The law making US public is very risk averse.

Actually, its *lawyers* who are making us more risk averse. The
underlying supposition within NASA is that our advanced technology
will make exploration easier, but I believe that the advanced number
of lawyers will make it more difficult.

For proof, simply read about the obstacles that X Prize teams face.
Brian Thorn - 13 Feb 2004 22:23 GMT
>    In the face of massive public outrage about his decision, M

"Massive public outrage?" Get real.

Brian
 
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