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Reusable engines by Boing?

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Brian Gaff - 10 Dec 2003 17:39 GMT
Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could
some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the
way the world were going, and cannot quite see how these are supposed to be
better.

Not an expert...

Brian

--
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graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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Richard Cochran - 11 Dec 2003 00:41 GMT
> Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could
> some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the
> way the world were going, and cannot quite see how these are supposed to be
> better.

Fuel handling, for one.  There's a whole sequence of tradeoffs, and
I'll defer to those more knowledgeable on which is "better" for a
particular application, but one advantage of kerosene is that it's
a fairly dense noncorrosive liquid at standard temperature and
pressure.  The fact that it's liquid at STP means it doesn't need
pressurized or insulated tanks.  Its density means the tankage can
be smaller than the tankage required for a similar weight of
liquid hydrogen.  Since a most of a launch vehicle is
propellant/oxidizer tankage and propellant itself, it makes
sense to pay attention to the structural mass required in the
tanks.  For some applications, the easier ground handling of
kerosene versus LH2 is very important.

However, liquid hydrogen has a significantly higher specific
impulse, meaning less fuel mass is required.

See
http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/propel.htm
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/conghand/propelnt.htm

--Rich
rschmitt23 - 11 Dec 2003 01:20 GMT
I assume that you're referring to Rocketdyne's work on the RS-84
LOX/kerosene engine.  That engine uses staged combustion similar to the SSME
and to the Russian RD-180 which powers Lockheed Martin's Atlas V.  IMHO,
Rocketdyne is playing catchup with the Russians and is using the RS-84 to
become competitive in  staged combustion LOX/kerosene engine technology in
case that's the way the LV market swings.

Rocktdyne touts the RS-84 as a "reusable" engine. But with 2800 psi chamber
pressure (in the same ballpark with the SSME 3000 psi chamber pressure), I
don't know how reusable that engine will be. It took Rocketdyne nearly 14
years (1971-85) to qualify the SSME for 20 reuses. (The original SSME spec
called for 7.5 hours of operation, equivalent to about 55 shuttle flights,
before major maintenance). Of course, NASA wouldn't think of flying a SSME
20 times in succession without major maintenance at frequent intervals.
Prior to the Challenger disaster of Jan 1986, the SSME turbopumps were being
removed after each flight, disassembled, inspected and refurbished before
returning to the flight-ready inventory. From 1988-2000 NASA spent nearly
$2B (current dollars) developing the Pratt & Whitney turbopumps to replace
the original Rocketdyne pumps used on the SSME. I recall seeing a blurb
recently that now NASA removes the P&W turbopumps after 5 or 6 flights for
major maintence, repair and overhaul (MRO). But this is still a long way
from 55 reuses before major maintenance, which is how the SSME was
originally hyped when the shuttle program was being sold to Congress.

The big advantage of kerosene is that it's high density (similar to that of
LOX) makes it a lot easier to pump than low density liquid hydrogen (LH2).
The SSME LH2 high pressure hydrogen turbopump spins at nearly 30,000 rpm in
order to supply LH2 at the specified flow rate. By comparison, the LOX and
kerosene turbopumps of the F-1 engine that powered the first stage of von
Braun's Saturn V moon rocket spun at only 5500 rpm.

In fact, the F-1 engine was quite reusable, even though it's considered a
single-use expendable engine. On the test stand one of the qualification
engines was restarted 20 times and operated for a total of 2250 seconds
without major maintenance. The operating time was equivalent to 14 Saturn V
launches. This was accomplished in the mid-1960s. One of the reasons that
the F-1 had this level of reusability was it's conservative design. It
generated 1.5 million pounds of sealevel thrust with only 1100 psi chamber
pressure and used a simple once-through gas-generator cycle. A later upgrade
of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel thrust
in the late 1960s, which is still the world record for a single nozzle
liquid-fuel rocket engine.

Later
Ray Schmitt

> Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could
> some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>  graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
> Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk

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Julian Bordas - 11 Dec 2003 11:33 GMT
> I assume that you're referring to Rocketdyne's work on the RS-84
> LOX/kerosene engine.  That engine uses staged combustion similar to the SSME
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> generated 1.5 million pounds of sealevel thrust with only 1100 psi chamber
> pressure

With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a
pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about.

Julian
Kaido Kert - 11 Dec 2003 20:57 GMT
> With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a
> pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about.
>
> Julian

How about this boy, instead of pressure-fed:
http://www.rocketfuelpump.com/
No turbo pumps to worry about.

-kert
Julian Bordas - 15 Dec 2003 00:30 GMT
>>With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a
>>pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about.
>>
>>Julian
>
> How about this boy,

Boy? Should I be amused or insulted?

instead of pressure-fed:
> http://www.rocketfuelpump.com/
> No turbo pumps to worry about.

Thinks, very interesting
Terrence Daniels - 11 Dec 2003 21:21 GMT
A later upgrade
> of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel thrust
> in the late 1960s, which is still the world record for a single nozzle
> liquid-fuel rocket engine.

Hypothetically then, a Saturn first stage with F-1As would generate a third
again as much thrust as the Shuttle stack at liftoff. Why aren't we making
use of this? Surely we could find something to do with all that power? :)

If only...
Damon Hill - 12 Dec 2003 00:23 GMT
>  A later upgrade
>> of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> we making use of this? Surely we could find something to do with all
> that power? :)

A large liquid booster, flyback or not, was proposed initially for the
Shuttle, but Congress wouldn't allocate the money.

There are very few missions otherwise that need such a large first
stage, especially if it's not recoverable.

Would have been nice to have, if there had been a real follow-on program
for a lunar base, Mars missions.

Something will be built, but it won't be Saturn and it won't use F-1s.

--Damon
Terrence Daniels - 12 Dec 2003 04:19 GMT
> "Terrence Daniels" <daniels369@SPAMMERSSHOULDBEShotmail.com> wrote in

> There are very few missions otherwise that need such a large first
> stage, especially if it's not recoverable.

Now see, I've been thinking, in a sketch-in-the-notebook-during-class kinda
way, what about a recoverable first stage? Maybe not "fly back", but would
there ever be a way to recover, say, the engines as a single block? I'm sure
the engineers have sketched everything I could ever think of in *their*
notebooks already, but I'm wondering about the feasability of such a thing.

Ah who am I kidding, I just want to see a honking big badass booster fly.
Use? Ha! Art for art's sake, says I...
starman - 12 Dec 2003 08:52 GMT
> > "Terrence Daniels" <daniels369@SPAMMERSSHOULDBEShotmail.com> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Ah who am I kidding, I just want to see a honking big badass booster fly.
> Use? Ha! Art for art's sake, says I...

There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V
during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the 'Big
Dumb Booster' concept. They went for the Shuttle instead.
BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but
it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.
Herb Schaltegger - 12 Dec 2003 12:57 GMT
> BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but
> it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.

SIC was the designation of the Saturn V first stage, was it not?  SII was
the second stage and SIVB was the third stage.

Signature

Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
Remove invalid nonsense for email.

Andrew Gray - 12 Dec 2003 13:35 GMT
>> BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but
>> it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.
>
> SIC was the designation of the Saturn V first stage, was it not?  SII was
> the second stage and SIVB was the third stage.

It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the
Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the
C-5 was because they'd put a fifth F-1 engine in the first stage...

(it had previously been the C-4, you see; they froze the design in late
1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first
stage)

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-Andrew Gray
shimgray@bigfoot.com

Herb Schaltegger - 12 Dec 2003 13:48 GMT
> It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the
> Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first
> stage)

I knew that, Andrew although I'm sure there are those who didn't.  I only
responded because his statement was a bit misleading (albeit
unintentionally).  I think he might have been a bit more accurate to say
something like "'Saturn V' was a designation applied to the launch vehicle
due to its use of five clustered F1 engines in the first stage."  He didn't
say it that way (of course, neither did I, now that I think about it . . .
;-)

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Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
Remove invalid nonsense for email.

Brian Gaff - 12 Dec 2003 15:52 GMT
Avoiding the nit picking on designations etc then...

The Saturn V seemed underpowered from the point of view that it seemed a lot
slower off the pad than, say, a Shuttle. It got me thinking about the reason
for this, given the discussion in this thread about the thrust and the
apparent slow = reliable turbopumps etc.

Is it true that over a certain  size, you run into the huge problem of the
fuel you need to lift to get the thing off the ground in the first place?

Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get
off the ground!

Brian

--
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graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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LooseChanj - 12 Dec 2003 19:51 GMT
> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
> under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get
> off the ground!

IIRC, the Saturn V ended up even bigger than the Nova was to have been.
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Brian Thorn - 13 Dec 2003 04:18 GMT
>> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
>> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
>> under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get
>> off the ground!
>
>IIRC, the Saturn V ended up even bigger than the Nova was to have been.

Nova was to have eight F1 engines, so no.

Brian
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 13 Dec 2003 04:57 GMT
> >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
> >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nova was to have eight F1 engines, so no.

Well, "sorta"

There was never a definitive Nova design.  So, if you look around you'll see
a slew of designs that might be classified as Nova.

There was a sketched out Saturn V derivative (taller and with 120" diameter
(I think) SRBs on the side) that was more powerful than almost all the Nova
designs though.

> Brian
Brian Gaff - 13 Dec 2003 08:46 GMT
Well with the  scale they put on the illustration, Nova was huge compared
with the Saturn V.

Seems to me that the law of diminishing returns applies to  launchers as it
does to many other things.

Brian

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Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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__________________________________

| >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
| >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Brian
starman - 13 Dec 2003 10:01 GMT
> >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
> >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Brian

Why did the Russians (USSR) take the approach of using clusters of
relatively low power engines on their larger boosters instead of a
lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of
reliability?
JazzMan - 13 Dec 2003 15:41 GMT
> > >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout
> > >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of
> reliability?

Probably more a question of technology and manufacturing infrastructure,
or lack thereof.

JazzMan
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Jorge R. Frank - 13 Dec 2003 16:17 GMT
> Why did the Russians (USSR) take the approach of using clusters of
> relatively low power engines on their larger boosters instead of a
> lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of
> reliability?

More a matter of not having developed a higher power engine, and since they
were playing catch-up with the US, they didn't have time to develop one.

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Andrew Gray - 13 Dec 2003 02:04 GMT
>> It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the
>> Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I knew that, Andrew although I'm sure there are those who didn't.

But Herb, dear boy, how can I pass up an opportunity to pretend I know
something? ;-)

> I only responded because his statement was a bit misleading (albeit
> unintentionally).  I think he might have been a bit more accurate to say
> something like "'Saturn V' was a designation applied to the launch vehicle
> due to its use of five clustered F1 engines in the first stage."  He didn't
> say it that way (of course, neither did I, now that I think about it . . .

Yeah, but the C-5 was named so because of the first stage. Except now
someone's posted to say that's coincidence. Damn. Time to actually
/read/ Stages To Saturn...

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-Andrew Gray
shimgray@bigfoot.com

ed kyle - 12 Dec 2003 23:11 GMT
> ... the reason the C-5 was called the
> C-5 was because they'd put a fifth F-1 engine in the first stage...
>
> (it had previously been the C-4, you see; they froze the design in late
> 1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first
> stage)

The "C" stood for "Concept" and the "5" meant that it
was the 5th Saturn concept to be seriously studied.  
It was a coincidence that C-5 had five F-1s and that
C-4 had four.  Saturn C-3 only had two F-1 engines,
for example.  Saturn C-1 had eight H-1 engines.  
Saturn C-2 had either eight beefed up H-1 engines or
four steerable H-1s and one fixed, center-mounted F-1.
At one point, the C-4 design had a fifth F-1 engine.

- Ed Kyle
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 12 Dec 2003 16:54 GMT
> There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V
> during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the 'Big
> Dumb Booster' concept. They went for the Shuttle instead.
> BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but
> it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.

Sorry, the Saturn V was in no way ever thought of as a Big Dumb Booster.  It
was far too complex for that.

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Hallerb - 12 Dec 2003 20:55 GMT
>> There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V
>> during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the

They considered making it reusable but opted for the less expensive Shuttle
instead:(

Wonder what the cost to orbit for the saturn family would be today if it hadnt
been killed?

Space stations easily launched in big modules etc?
Derek Lyons - 12 Dec 2003 22:40 GMT
>>> There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V
>>> during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the
>
>They considered making it reusable but opted for the less expensive Shuttle
>instead:(

Problem is, it's not certain that in the end it would be any cheaper.

Unless your program is entirely station based, you end up with a
higher program cost because of the almost non-existent cargo return
capability of a Saturn/Apollo derived program.  (Unless you spend the
non-trivial amounts of money needed to develop such capability, which
means you end up developing the Shuttle anyhow.)  Another issue is
that you need to develop an automated cargo vessel (Progress/ATV/HTV)
to support a significant station program.

>Wonder what the cost to orbit for the saturn family would be today if it hadnt
>been killed?

Probably somewhere between that of Shuttle and the Saturn's 70's era
cost corrected for inflation.  Even with a recoverable first stage,
you still need to refurbish that stage, and build the stages that are
tossed with each launch, as well as the spacecraft.  The other option
is to spend a goodly amount of money on a 'new' orbital capsule that
is at least partially re-useable.

It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as
most people think.  Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited
performance it supplied.  To gain the capabilities needed for a full
program, substantial additional funds will be needed.

D.
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Ian Woollard - 22 Dec 2003 16:51 GMT
> It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as
> most people think.  Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited
> performance it supplied.

You've got this backwards.

It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the
Shuttle, adjusted for inflation. In addition, it was capable of
launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't.

> D.
Bootstrap Bill - 22 Dec 2003 21:25 GMT
> > It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as
> > most people think.  Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Shuttle, adjusted for inflation. In addition, it was capable of
> launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't.

What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the
Saturn V to operate?

Do you have any idea what it might cost to update the design and get it back
into production?
Derek Lyons - 23 Dec 2003 02:52 GMT
>What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the
>Saturn V to operate?

The SV only costs half as much if you use very optimistic SV numbers
and very pessimistic Shuttle numbers.  (Among other things you'd need
to develop a cargo vehicle, and a return capacity, and a few other
things.)

D.
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Corrections, comments, and additions should be
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Ian Woollard - 23 Dec 2003 23:32 GMT
> What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the
> Saturn V to operate?

In the sense you mean: none

Of course, the Shuttle (mostly) works, and with average reliability for
manned space vehicles.

> Do you have any idea what it might cost to update the design and get it back
> into production?

I do not especially care what that would cost. The question is only:
what is the best launcher for today's and future markets?

It seems crystal clear to me that at this point in time, neither the
Shuttle, nor Saturn V is remotely appropriate. Saturn V is too expensive
to bring back (although throwing it away was a desperately bad move);
and the Shuttle is much too expensive for today's market.

Indeed, there is a huge question mark against NASA's manned spaceflight,
as to whether it is in any way relevant. For it to achieve bigger goals
it would need to grow, but NASA cannot (and from a public policy point
of view should not) grow.

The future of manned spaceflight *has* to be commercially based. NASA
cannot address these markets.
starman - 24 Dec 2003 06:16 GMT
> > What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the
> > Saturn V to operate?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> to bring back (although throwing it away was a desperately bad move);
> and the Shuttle is much too expensive for today's market.

snipped

I recently heard about a proposal for building a new fleet of modified
Shuttles to be used as 'expendable' cargo vehicles. The design would
consist of the fuselage (cargo bay) and main engines without the wings
or tail. Of course there would be no landing gear either. The cockpit
would contain only the necessary controls and instrumentation for
docking with the ISS or other orbital vehicles. The crews would go up in
a separate reentry vehicle, probably a capsule, which I suppose could be
a Soyuz if NASA doesn't want to get back into the capsule business for
now. The crew would transfer to the cargo Shuttle cockpit and perform
the docking and cargo unloading. However I don't see why this couldn't
be done with remote control too, which would save even more on the cost
of having to make the cockpit suitable for humans. The idea of this
project is to buy some time during the coming years until a new
generation of cargo carrying reusable space plane can be made.

FWIW- I think the concept has merit.
Jorge R. Frank - 22 Dec 2003 23:34 GMT
>> It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as
>> most people think.  Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the
> Shuttle, adjusted for inflation.

That very much depends on which numbers you use.

> In addition, it was capable of
> launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't.

The project managers of Magellan, Galileo, and Ulysses would be very
surprised to hear this.

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Jon Berndt - 23 Dec 2003 00:30 GMT
"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message

> Ian Woollard <junkmail@wolfkeeper.plus.com> wrote in

> > It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the
> > Shuttle, adjusted for inflation.

> That very much depends on which numbers you use.

That's what I was thinking.  The STS lofts what, about 250K into LEO?
Roughly? Now, that includes the orbiter and deployable payload, of course,
but it's still that much to orbit. A hypothetical Shuttle-C would be about
the same? No?

If I am not mistaken, the Saturn V third stage for Apollo was roughly about
that much, too, wasn't it?

The preferred approach (of the two) I would think would be to develop
Shuttle-C instead of returning to Saturn V, no?

Jon
Brian Gaff - 23 Dec 2003 10:40 GMT
Well, if nobody can agree on the costs of the  two systems, it is really no
wonder the Shuttle was over hyped at the start, is it? The ability to cost
things seems to not be the strong areas of project development OR even post
use committees.

So, first define what you really want, then design the  devices to do that.
Don't invoke systems that may be possible soon, use tried and tested
designs.

Then compare the designs for the tasks and only make compromises where one
approach will suit more than one task without severe compromise.

Then build your systems, and remember, if you change what you want  before
the things  are  built and working, its just tough!

Oh, and only let the bean counters loose when you have a working prototype.

:-)

Brian

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Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
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| "Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
Jorge R. Frank - 23 Dec 2003 16:23 GMT
> Well, if nobody can agree on the costs of the  two systems, it is
> really no wonder the Shuttle was over hyped at the start, is it? The
> ability to cost things seems to not be the strong areas of project
> development OR even post use committees.

The ability to cost things is not a strong point of NASA in general.

http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2003/1222/web-nasa-12-22-03.asp

http://www.spaceref.com/docs/NASA/ISS/imce.pdf

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Russ Moerland - 24 Dec 2003 01:09 GMT
> The project managers of Magellan, Galileo, and Ulysses would be very
> surprised to hear this.

If I'm not mistaken, all three of these used IUS to achieve ev...

Russ
ed kyle - 12 Dec 2003 18:14 GMT
> BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but
> it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.

Saturn V (originally Saturn C-5) refered to the entire launch
vehicle, which on all but one occasion consisted of the S-IC
first stage, the S-II second stage, the S-IVB third stage,
and the Instrument Unit (IU).  The one occasion was SA-513,
which used only two live stages to orbit a Saturn IB S-IVB
that had been converted into the Skylab I orbiting workshop.  
You can still see the third stage originally built for SA-513,
rotting away on display at JSC in Houston.

- Ed Kyle
 
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