Reusable engines by Boing?
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Brian Gaff - 10 Dec 2003 17:39 GMT Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the way the world were going, and cannot quite see how these are supposed to be better.
Not an expert...
Brian
-- Brian Gaff.... graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________
Richard Cochran - 11 Dec 2003 00:41 GMT > Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could > some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the > way the world were going, and cannot quite see how these are supposed to be > better. Fuel handling, for one. There's a whole sequence of tradeoffs, and I'll defer to those more knowledgeable on which is "better" for a particular application, but one advantage of kerosene is that it's a fairly dense noncorrosive liquid at standard temperature and pressure. The fact that it's liquid at STP means it doesn't need pressurized or insulated tanks. Its density means the tankage can be smaller than the tankage required for a similar weight of liquid hydrogen. Since a most of a launch vehicle is propellant/oxidizer tankage and propellant itself, it makes sense to pay attention to the structural mass required in the tanks. For some applications, the easier ground handling of kerosene versus LH2 is very important.
However, liquid hydrogen has a significantly higher specific impulse, meaning less fuel mass is required.
See http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/propel.htm http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/conghand/propelnt.htm
--Rich
rschmitt23 - 11 Dec 2003 01:20 GMT I assume that you're referring to Rocketdyne's work on the RS-84 LOX/kerosene engine. That engine uses staged combustion similar to the SSME and to the Russian RD-180 which powers Lockheed Martin's Atlas V. IMHO, Rocketdyne is playing catchup with the Russians and is using the RS-84 to become competitive in staged combustion LOX/kerosene engine technology in case that's the way the LV market swings.
Rocktdyne touts the RS-84 as a "reusable" engine. But with 2800 psi chamber pressure (in the same ballpark with the SSME 3000 psi chamber pressure), I don't know how reusable that engine will be. It took Rocketdyne nearly 14 years (1971-85) to qualify the SSME for 20 reuses. (The original SSME spec called for 7.5 hours of operation, equivalent to about 55 shuttle flights, before major maintenance). Of course, NASA wouldn't think of flying a SSME 20 times in succession without major maintenance at frequent intervals. Prior to the Challenger disaster of Jan 1986, the SSME turbopumps were being removed after each flight, disassembled, inspected and refurbished before returning to the flight-ready inventory. From 1988-2000 NASA spent nearly $2B (current dollars) developing the Pratt & Whitney turbopumps to replace the original Rocketdyne pumps used on the SSME. I recall seeing a blurb recently that now NASA removes the P&W turbopumps after 5 or 6 flights for major maintence, repair and overhaul (MRO). But this is still a long way from 55 reuses before major maintenance, which is how the SSME was originally hyped when the shuttle program was being sold to Congress.
The big advantage of kerosene is that it's high density (similar to that of LOX) makes it a lot easier to pump than low density liquid hydrogen (LH2). The SSME LH2 high pressure hydrogen turbopump spins at nearly 30,000 rpm in order to supply LH2 at the specified flow rate. By comparison, the LOX and kerosene turbopumps of the F-1 engine that powered the first stage of von Braun's Saturn V moon rocket spun at only 5500 rpm.
In fact, the F-1 engine was quite reusable, even though it's considered a single-use expendable engine. On the test stand one of the qualification engines was restarted 20 times and operated for a total of 2250 seconds without major maintenance. The operating time was equivalent to 14 Saturn V launches. This was accomplished in the mid-1960s. One of the reasons that the F-1 had this level of reusability was it's conservative design. It generated 1.5 million pounds of sealevel thrust with only 1100 psi chamber pressure and used a simple once-through gas-generator cycle. A later upgrade of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel thrust in the late 1960s, which is still the world record for a single nozzle liquid-fuel rocket engine.
Later Ray Schmitt
> Noting recent reports, it seems everyone wants Kerosene engines now. Could > some kind person explain why these are better? I thought hydrogen was the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them > Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________________
> __________________________________ > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free, so there! > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 05/12/03 Julian Bordas - 11 Dec 2003 11:33 GMT > I assume that you're referring to Rocketdyne's work on the RS-84 > LOX/kerosene engine. That engine uses staged combustion similar to the SSME [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > generated 1.5 million pounds of sealevel thrust with only 1100 psi chamber > pressure With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about.
Julian
Kaido Kert - 11 Dec 2003 20:57 GMT > With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a > pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about. > > Julian How about this boy, instead of pressure-fed: http://www.rocketfuelpump.com/ No turbo pumps to worry about.
-kert
Julian Bordas - 15 Dec 2003 00:30 GMT >>With such a relatively low chamber pressure it seemslikely that a >>pressure fed system could be developed, no turbo pumps to worry about. >> >>Julian > > How about this boy, Boy? Should I be amused or insulted?
instead of pressure-fed:
> http://www.rocketfuelpump.com/ > No turbo pumps to worry about. Thinks, very interesting
Terrence Daniels - 11 Dec 2003 21:21 GMT A later upgrade
> of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel thrust > in the late 1960s, which is still the world record for a single nozzle > liquid-fuel rocket engine. Hypothetically then, a Saturn first stage with F-1As would generate a third again as much thrust as the Shuttle stack at liftoff. Why aren't we making use of this? Surely we could find something to do with all that power? :)
If only...
Damon Hill - 12 Dec 2003 00:23 GMT > A later upgrade >> of the F-1, called the F-1A, generated 1.8 million pounds of sealevel [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > we making use of this? Surely we could find something to do with all > that power? :) A large liquid booster, flyback or not, was proposed initially for the Shuttle, but Congress wouldn't allocate the money.
There are very few missions otherwise that need such a large first stage, especially if it's not recoverable.
Would have been nice to have, if there had been a real follow-on program for a lunar base, Mars missions.
Something will be built, but it won't be Saturn and it won't use F-1s.
--Damon
Terrence Daniels - 12 Dec 2003 04:19 GMT > "Terrence Daniels" <daniels369@SPAMMERSSHOULDBEShotmail.com> wrote in
> There are very few missions otherwise that need such a large first > stage, especially if it's not recoverable. Now see, I've been thinking, in a sketch-in-the-notebook-during-class kinda way, what about a recoverable first stage? Maybe not "fly back", but would there ever be a way to recover, say, the engines as a single block? I'm sure the engineers have sketched everything I could ever think of in *their* notebooks already, but I'm wondering about the feasability of such a thing.
Ah who am I kidding, I just want to see a honking big badass booster fly. Use? Ha! Art for art's sake, says I...
starman - 12 Dec 2003 08:52 GMT > > "Terrence Daniels" <daniels369@SPAMMERSSHOULDBEShotmail.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ah who am I kidding, I just want to see a honking big badass booster fly. > Use? Ha! Art for art's sake, says I... There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the 'Big Dumb Booster' concept. They went for the Shuttle instead. BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but it came to mean the whole rocket assembly.
Herb Schaltegger - 12 Dec 2003 12:57 GMT > BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but > it came to mean the whole rocket assembly. SIC was the designation of the Saturn V first stage, was it not? SII was the second stage and SIVB was the third stage.
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Andrew Gray - 12 Dec 2003 13:35 GMT >> BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but >> it came to mean the whole rocket assembly. > > SIC was the designation of the Saturn V first stage, was it not? SII was > the second stage and SIVB was the third stage. It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the C-5 was because they'd put a fifth F-1 engine in the first stage...
(it had previously been the C-4, you see; they froze the design in late 1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first stage)
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Herb Schaltegger - 12 Dec 2003 13:48 GMT > It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the > Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first > stage) I knew that, Andrew although I'm sure there are those who didn't. I only responded because his statement was a bit misleading (albeit unintentionally). I think he might have been a bit more accurate to say something like "'Saturn V' was a designation applied to the launch vehicle due to its use of five clustered F1 engines in the first stage." He didn't say it that way (of course, neither did I, now that I think about it . . . ;-)
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Brian Gaff - 12 Dec 2003 15:52 GMT Avoiding the nit picking on designations etc then...
The Saturn V seemed underpowered from the point of view that it seemed a lot slower off the pad than, say, a Shuttle. It got me thinking about the reason for this, given the discussion in this thread about the thrust and the apparent slow = reliable turbopumps etc.
Is it true that over a certain size, you run into the huge problem of the fuel you need to lift to get the thing off the ground in the first place?
Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get off the ground!
Brian
-- Brian Gaff.... graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________
LooseChanj - 12 Dec 2003 19:51 GMT > Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout > when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse > under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get > off the ground! IIRC, the Saturn V ended up even bigger than the Nova was to have been.
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Brian Thorn - 13 Dec 2003 04:18 GMT >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse >> under its own weight, or if strong enough to hold all that fuel, never get >> off the ground! > >IIRC, the Saturn V ended up even bigger than the Nova was to have been. Nova was to have eight F1 engines, so no.
Brian
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 13 Dec 2003 04:57 GMT > >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout > >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nova was to have eight F1 engines, so no. Well, "sorta"
There was never a definitive Nova design. So, if you look around you'll see a slew of designs that might be classified as Nova.
There was a sketched out Saturn V derivative (taller and with 120" diameter (I think) SRBs on the side) that was more powerful than almost all the Nova designs though.
> Brian Brian Gaff - 13 Dec 2003 08:46 GMT Well with the scale they put on the illustration, Nova was huge compared with the Saturn V.
Seems to me that the law of diminishing returns applies to launchers as it does to many other things.
Brian
-- Brian Gaff.... graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________
| >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout | >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Brian starman - 13 Dec 2003 10:01 GMT > >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout > >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Brian Why did the Russians (USSR) take the approach of using clusters of relatively low power engines on their larger boosters instead of a lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of reliability?
JazzMan - 13 Dec 2003 15:41 GMT > > >> Does anyone recall the proposed Nova? i saw an illustration in a US handout > > >> when I were a kid, My feelings even then were that it might just collapse [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of > reliability? Probably more a question of technology and manufacturing infrastructure, or lack thereof.
JazzMan
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Jorge R. Frank - 13 Dec 2003 16:17 GMT > Why did the Russians (USSR) take the approach of using clusters of > relatively low power engines on their larger boosters instead of a > lesser number of higher power engines? Was it mainly a matter of > reliability? More a matter of not having developed a higher power engine, and since they were playing catch-up with the US, they didn't have time to develop one.
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Andrew Gray - 13 Dec 2003 02:04 GMT >> It a way he's right, although it's a confusing statement - remember the >> Saturn V was originally the C-5, and the reason the C-5 was called the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I knew that, Andrew although I'm sure there are those who didn't. But Herb, dear boy, how can I pass up an opportunity to pretend I know something? ;-)
> I only responded because his statement was a bit misleading (albeit > unintentionally). I think he might have been a bit more accurate to say > something like "'Saturn V' was a designation applied to the launch vehicle > due to its use of five clustered F1 engines in the first stage." He didn't > say it that way (of course, neither did I, now that I think about it . . . Yeah, but the C-5 was named so because of the first stage. Except now someone's posted to say that's coincidence. Damn. Time to actually /read/ Stages To Saturn...
 Signature -Andrew Gray shimgray@bigfoot.com
ed kyle - 12 Dec 2003 23:11 GMT > ... the reason the C-5 was called the > C-5 was because they'd put a fifth F-1 engine in the first stage... > > (it had previously been the C-4, you see; they froze the design in late > 1961, and in the process someone got an extra engine added to the first > stage) The "C" stood for "Concept" and the "5" meant that it was the 5th Saturn concept to be seriously studied. It was a coincidence that C-5 had five F-1s and that C-4 had four. Saturn C-3 only had two F-1 engines, for example. Saturn C-1 had eight H-1 engines. Saturn C-2 had either eight beefed up H-1 engines or four steerable H-1s and one fixed, center-mounted F-1. At one point, the C-4 design had a fifth F-1 engine.
- Ed Kyle
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 12 Dec 2003 16:54 GMT > There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V > during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the 'Big > Dumb Booster' concept. They went for the Shuttle instead. > BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but > it came to mean the whole rocket assembly. Sorry, the Saturn V was in no way ever thought of as a Big Dumb Booster. It was far too complex for that.
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- Hallerb - 12 Dec 2003 20:55 GMT >> There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V >> during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the They considered making it reusable but opted for the less expensive Shuttle instead:(
Wonder what the cost to orbit for the saturn family would be today if it hadnt been killed?
Space stations easily launched in big modules etc?
Derek Lyons - 12 Dec 2003 22:40 GMT >>> There was some serious thought about putting wings on the Saturn-V >>> during the waning years of the Apollo program. It was called the > >They considered making it reusable but opted for the less expensive Shuttle >instead:( Problem is, it's not certain that in the end it would be any cheaper.
Unless your program is entirely station based, you end up with a higher program cost because of the almost non-existent cargo return capability of a Saturn/Apollo derived program. (Unless you spend the non-trivial amounts of money needed to develop such capability, which means you end up developing the Shuttle anyhow.) Another issue is that you need to develop an automated cargo vessel (Progress/ATV/HTV) to support a significant station program.
>Wonder what the cost to orbit for the saturn family would be today if it hadnt >been killed? Probably somewhere between that of Shuttle and the Saturn's 70's era cost corrected for inflation. Even with a recoverable first stage, you still need to refurbish that stage, and build the stages that are tossed with each launch, as well as the spacecraft. The other option is to spend a goodly amount of money on a 'new' orbital capsule that is at least partially re-useable.
It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as most people think. Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited performance it supplied. To gain the capabilities needed for a full program, substantial additional funds will be needed.
D.
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Ian Woollard - 22 Dec 2003 16:51 GMT > It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as > most people think. Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited > performance it supplied. You've got this backwards.
It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the Shuttle, adjusted for inflation. In addition, it was capable of launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't.
> D. Bootstrap Bill - 22 Dec 2003 21:25 GMT > > It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as > > most people think. Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Shuttle, adjusted for inflation. In addition, it was capable of > launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't. What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the Saturn V to operate?
Do you have any idea what it might cost to update the design and get it back into production?
Derek Lyons - 23 Dec 2003 02:52 GMT >What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the >Saturn V to operate? The SV only costs half as much if you use very optimistic SV numbers and very pessimistic Shuttle numbers. (Among other things you'd need to develop a cargo vehicle, and a return capacity, and a few other things.)
D.
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Ian Woollard - 23 Dec 2003 23:32 GMT > What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the > Saturn V to operate? In the sense you mean: none
Of course, the Shuttle (mostly) works, and with average reliability for manned space vehicles.
> Do you have any idea what it might cost to update the design and get it back > into production? I do not especially care what that would cost. The question is only: what is the best launcher for today's and future markets?
It seems crystal clear to me that at this point in time, neither the Shuttle, nor Saturn V is remotely appropriate. Saturn V is too expensive to bring back (although throwing it away was a desperately bad move); and the Shuttle is much too expensive for today's market.
Indeed, there is a huge question mark against NASA's manned spaceflight, as to whether it is in any way relevant. For it to achieve bigger goals it would need to grow, but NASA cannot (and from a public policy point of view should not) grow.
The future of manned spaceflight *has* to be commercially based. NASA cannot address these markets.
starman - 24 Dec 2003 06:16 GMT > > What's the point of a reusable shuttle if it costs twice as much as the > > Saturn V to operate? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to bring back (although throwing it away was a desperately bad move); > and the Shuttle is much too expensive for today's market. snipped
I recently heard about a proposal for building a new fleet of modified Shuttles to be used as 'expendable' cargo vehicles. The design would consist of the fuselage (cargo bay) and main engines without the wings or tail. Of course there would be no landing gear either. The cockpit would contain only the necessary controls and instrumentation for docking with the ISS or other orbital vehicles. The crews would go up in a separate reentry vehicle, probably a capsule, which I suppose could be a Soyuz if NASA doesn't want to get back into the capsule business for now. The crew would transfer to the cargo Shuttle cockpit and perform the docking and cargo unloading. However I don't see why this couldn't be done with remote control too, which would save even more on the cost of having to make the cockpit suitable for humans. The idea of this project is to buy some time during the coming years until a new generation of cargo carrying reusable space plane can be made.
FWIW- I think the concept has merit.
Jorge R. Frank - 22 Dec 2003 23:34 GMT >> It's inescapable that a Saturn derived program won't be as cheap as >> most people think. Saturn/Apollo was not cheap for the rather limited [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the > Shuttle, adjusted for inflation. That very much depends on which numbers you use.
> In addition, it was capable of > launching payload to escape velocity, which the Shuttle can't. The project managers of Magellan, Galileo, and Ulysses would be very surprised to hear this.
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Jon Berndt - 23 Dec 2003 00:30 GMT "Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
> Ian Woollard <junkmail@wolfkeeper.plus.com> wrote in
> > It had 3-4x the payload of the Shuttle, at half the cost per kg of the > > Shuttle, adjusted for inflation.
> That very much depends on which numbers you use. That's what I was thinking. The STS lofts what, about 250K into LEO? Roughly? Now, that includes the orbiter and deployable payload, of course, but it's still that much to orbit. A hypothetical Shuttle-C would be about the same? No?
If I am not mistaken, the Saturn V third stage for Apollo was roughly about that much, too, wasn't it?
The preferred approach (of the two) I would think would be to develop Shuttle-C instead of returning to Saturn V, no?
Jon
Brian Gaff - 23 Dec 2003 10:40 GMT Well, if nobody can agree on the costs of the two systems, it is really no wonder the Shuttle was over hyped at the start, is it? The ability to cost things seems to not be the strong areas of project development OR even post use committees.
So, first define what you really want, then design the devices to do that. Don't invoke systems that may be possible soon, use tried and tested designs.
Then compare the designs for the tasks and only make compromises where one approach will suit more than one task without severe compromise.
Then build your systems, and remember, if you change what you want before the things are built and working, its just tough!
Oh, and only let the bean counters loose when you have a working prototype.
:-) Brian
-- Brian Gaff.... graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________
| "Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message Jorge R. Frank - 23 Dec 2003 16:23 GMT > Well, if nobody can agree on the costs of the two systems, it is > really no wonder the Shuttle was over hyped at the start, is it? The > ability to cost things seems to not be the strong areas of project > development OR even post use committees. The ability to cost things is not a strong point of NASA in general.
http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2003/1222/web-nasa-12-22-03.asp
http://www.spaceref.com/docs/NASA/ISS/imce.pdf
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Russ Moerland - 24 Dec 2003 01:09 GMT > The project managers of Magellan, Galileo, and Ulysses would be very > surprised to hear this. If I'm not mistaken, all three of these used IUS to achieve ev...
Russ
ed kyle - 12 Dec 2003 18:14 GMT > BTW- The term 'Saturn-V' correctly applies only to the first stage but > it came to mean the whole rocket assembly. Saturn V (originally Saturn C-5) refered to the entire launch vehicle, which on all but one occasion consisted of the S-IC first stage, the S-II second stage, the S-IVB third stage, and the Instrument Unit (IU). The one occasion was SA-513, which used only two live stages to orbit a Saturn IB S-IVB that had been converted into the Skylab I orbiting workshop. You can still see the third stage originally built for SA-513, rotting away on display at JSC in Houston.
- Ed Kyle
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