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Space Forum / Shuttle / October 2003Really, how hard can it be to fix the Shuttle?
Hey folks, I read the article making the rounds about the $.49-at-Home Depot foam paintbrush that it being considered for a tile repair tool. This would be cool, rather than spending time and thousands of $$$ developing some Rube Goldberg patch-squirter. Why can't the same principal be applied to the ET foam problem? Wrap the tank in something simple, like a couple layers of say, chicken wire? I'm not sure of the total ET surface area, nor do I know the going rate for chicken wire, but I'll bet it's cheaper than yet another foam change. Hell, remember what duct tape did for Apollo 13 and the program? I know that NASAs problems in management won't be fixed so easily; ie: when someone tells you you have a problem with O-rings, foam hitting tiles, or whatever, you FIX IT!! I just don't think that standing down for another full year while dithering about is a good idea. Especially not with Shenzhou 5 heading to the pad next week. Cheers, Kodos the Executioner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..warm up the plasma weapons.. >when someone tells you you have a problem with O-rings, foam hitting >tiles, or whatever, you FIX IT!! I just don't think that standing down [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Kodos the Executioner The problem is you say if someone tells you theres a problem FIX IT/ Old management ignored this and now all their old decisions have to be reviewed to minimize the chance of yet another failure > I read the article making the rounds about the $.49-at-Home Depot foam > paintbrush that it being considered for a tile repair tool. This would > be cool, rather than spending time and thousands of $$$ developing > some Rube Goldberg patch-squirter. The foam brush is just an applicator; you still need the "Rube Goldberg patch-squirter" to mix the two components of the material before application. > Why can't the same principal be > applied to the ET foam problem? Wrap the tank in something simple, > like a couple layers of say, chicken wire? I'm not sure of the total > ET surface area, nor do I know the going rate for chicken wire, but > I'll bet it's cheaper than yet another foam change. I'll bet it's a lot heavier, too. ET mass trades almost one-for-one with payload, and the shuttle's payload capacity is going to take enough of a hit as it is. > Hell, remember what duct tape did for Apollo 13 and the program? That was inside the spacecraft. It's a little trickier outside. Note that NASA chose not to try to inspect the CM heat shield on Apollo 13, even though they had reason to believe the SM O2 tank explosion had compromised it. They knew they couldn't repair it with duct tape, or anything else the crew had on hand. > I know that NASAs problems in management won't be fixed so easily; ie: > when someone tells you you have a problem with O-rings, foam hitting > tiles, or whatever, you FIX IT!! I just don't think that standing down > for another full year while dithering about is a good idea. No one is "dithering about". You may or may not be aware that the CAIB issued 13 other return-to-flight recommendations to NASA besides tile repair. Shoot, the foam brush still doesn't completely satisfy the tile repair recommendation; issues of EVA access and worksite stabilization still must be solved, not to mention the fact that the same recommendation asked for RCC repair capability, which the foam brush doesn't address. > Especially not with Shenzhou 5 heading to the pad next week. Why should that make any difference? NASA didn't accelerate the post-51L return-to-flight when the Soviets launched Mir and Energia-Polyus, did they? Why should they accelerate the post-107 return-to-flight just because the Chinese are replicating what the Soviets did with Gherman Titov in 1961, or the US did with Gordon Cooper in 1963?  SignatureJRF Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail, check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and think one step ahead of IBM. Let's not forget the Columbia flew in specs with a substantial hole in its wing. Seems to me, you could stick a fair glob of junk over a hole and it would have flown well enough to get home. Really -- we're talking about a one-shot way to get past an emergency, not a graceful multi-usable redesign. Cheers -- Martha Adams > Let's not forget the Columbia flew in specs with a substantial hole in > its wing. Seems to me, you could stick a fair glob of junk over a > hole and it would have flown well enough to get home. Really -- we're > talking about a one-shot way to get past an emergency, not a graceful > multi-usable redesign. No one's talking about a graceful multi-usable redesign - that's a strawman. It is accepted that the airframe will at least require repair/recertification after landing, and may well need to be written off. The goal is a repair that *will* survive one entry/landing. But even that's a higher bar than a makeshift repair that *might* survive one entry/landing. SignatureJRF Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail, check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and think one step ahead of IBM. [...] > Especially not with Shenzhou 5 heading to the pad next week. What difference does that make? SignatureICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 07092308800 Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> replied to my earlier witticism: > kodostheexecutioner@my-deja.com says... > [...] > > Especially not with Shenzhou 5 heading to the pad next week. > > What difference does that make? A very big difference to me! Now it's happened. We (the USA) have no program beyond LEO. We haven't for 30+ years, but we all know that. The shuttle is grounded again, and any kind of OSP or capsule to supplement/replace the Shuttle is still only on paper. And even that will only keep us doing the same thing; counting laps in the sky. The Communist Chinese have, in one launch, just taken a big step toward parity with us in manned spaceflight capability. I'll bet in some technological aspects, Shenzhou is more advanced than the Shuttle. And they won't have to take the tenative steps towards its space goals that we did (ie; can a human swallow and take a dump in space?). If we don't get a plan in action to establish a lunar base, and outposts at L4/L5, the Red Chinese will. You can bank on it. The Chinese believe they are culturally superior to everyone else, and coupling that with a Communist mind-set means the Dragon will be coming on strong. They will win the high ground and we'll be paying tribute to those bastards, just like in the days of the warlords. We need to get our a.ses (or arses, right Peter?) in gear. NOW. Cheers, Kodos the Executioner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..orbiting in my 50-megaton space platform.. > The Communist Chinese have, in one launch, just taken a big step > toward parity with us in manned spaceflight capability. I'll bet in > some technological aspects, Shenzhou is more advanced than the > Shuttle. And they won't have to take the tenative steps towards its > space goals that we did (ie; can a human swallow and take a dump in > space?). In some technological aspects. Soyuz is more advanced than the shuttle. Hell, in some technological aspects, the car in the driveway outside is probably more advanced than the shuttle. > If we don't get a plan in action to establish a lunar base, and > outposts at L4/L5, the Red Chinese will. Two years ago, when I visited some people in Massachusets, someone I was having a coversation with was wondering why I'd wanted to "go to - China". The pause when she mentally cut the word "red" is about the only thing I remember from that conversation :-) (snip more) One of the things I love about usenet is seeing people make confident, loud predictions about the motives & intents of a group of people about whom, really, they know very little... (I saw someone today, in apparent seriousness, suggesting that China would be on the moon by 2008. Uh... yes.) Signature-Andrew Gray shimgray@bigfoot.com Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk> rose up and declared: Two years ago, when I visited some people in Massachusets, someone I was > having a coversation with was wondering why I'd wanted to "go to - > China". The pause when she mentally cut the word "red" is about the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (I saw someone today, in apparent seriousness, suggesting that China > would be on the moon by 2008. Uh... yes.) I submit: - The Chinese have a history of technical innovation and application, and they were doing it before the British Empire and the United States even existed. - The Chinese have a strong sense of national identity and a marshal philosophy of conquest and control. - The Chinese believe their nation would 'sleep for a thousand years' and then return to a position of dominance. That thousand years is just about up. - If a Communist government wants something done *now*, they do it *now*; they buy 20% less meat, 30% less toilet paper, and to hell with public opinion. - The Chinese know conflict with the United States is inevitable. They are building up their military for that. But, if they can attack on fronts other than military, such as an opponent's pride and national spirit, that opponent is weakened. This is called attacking an opponent's tao, according to Sun Tzu of 'the Art of War'. He may be dated, but Sun Tzu's philosophy is still applicable. I may not have a pipeline into the Chinese Politburo, but I do have a grasp of historical precedant. That is why I believe that we must be ready to meet and surpass the Chinese in the space arena. Cheers, Kodos the Executioner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..warm up the plasma weapons.. > I may not have a pipeline into the Chinese Politburo, but I do have a > grasp of historical precedant. . . . if not a grasp of spelling. SignatureHerb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D. Reformed Aerospace Engineer "Heisenberg might have been here." ~ Anonymous > > I may not have a pipeline into the Chinese Politburo, but I do have a > > grasp of historical precedant. > > . . . if not a grasp of spelling. ARRGH! My kingdom for SpellCheck! That's 'precedent', boys and girls.... Now back to our regularly scheduled debate. Cheers, Kodos ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - The Chinese know conflict with the United States is inevitable. They > are building up their military for that. But, if they can attack on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Kodos the Executioner The Chinese know no such thing. "Inevitable war" is war caused by those who cannot control themselves. If you make such a charge about the Chinese I trust you have some data to support it. > > - The Chinese know conflict with the United States is inevitable. They > > are building up their military for that. But, if they can attack on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > those who cannot control themselves. If you make such a charge about > the Chinese I trust you have some data to support it. I didn't say 'war' as such, Whirl. I said 'conflict'. Expansion of Asian countries into the Pacific Rim, and control of its resources is well documented by history. The Chinese are particularly motivated to do so simply because there are so damn many of them, despite the Communists' population control efforts. I'm sure the Japanese and the Austrialians don't want the Chinese being the biggest kid on the Pacific block. Having a robust space program impresses upon the poor little huddled masses (of all countries) how big and bad you are. Believe me, the Red Chinese know that. Cheers, Kodos ----------------------------------------------------------------- If going to space is just to impress do it on a sound stage. Lot easier and can be impressive. Heck the new Kalif of Calif. impressed the Californians. Nice to see the tech. industry fleeing. > If going to space is just to impress do it on a sound stage. Lot easier and > can be impressive. Heck the new Kalif of Calif. impressed the Californians. > Nice to see the tech. industry fleeing. Hmmm, I musta missed all the moving announcements after the election. Note that business in general, and several tech co's in particular, supported Mr. Ice's campaign. And he's not the Kalif: He's the Action Hero of California! /dps kodostheexecutioner > If we don't get a plan in action to establish a lunar base, and > outposts at L4/L5, the Red Chinese will. You can bank on it. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tribute to those bastards, just like in the days of the warlords. > We need to get our a.ses (or arses, right Peter?) in gear. NOW. BACK to the MOON! That would be fun, Kodos, and more interesting than hearing about shuttling equipment to a not-yet-ready space station (or not hearing about cuz the news doesn't even bother to cover it). However, I don't think you can scare up much enthusiasm for a race against the Communist Chinese. No one cares about fighting Communism anymore. -Ellen > If we don't get a plan in action to establish a lunar base, and > outposts at L4/L5, the Red Chinese will. You can bank on it. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tribute to those bastards, just like in the days of the warlords. > We need to get our a.ses (or arses, right Peter?) in gear. NOW. We defeated the Russians by getting into an arms race with them, until they went bankrupt. It would be so much easier to get into a space race with the Chinese until they collapse into bankrupcy. SignatureCommittees of Correspondence web page; free men own guns - slaves don't <www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/> In message <nhull-830646.17530015102003@corp.supernews.com>, Nick Hull <nhull@access4less.net> writes >> If we don't get a plan in action to establish a lunar base, and >> outposts at L4/L5, the Red Chinese will. You can bank on it. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >they went bankrupt. It would be so much easier to get into a space race >with the Chinese until they collapse into bankrupcy. Unlike military spending or social security, space is a tiny part of a nation's budget, and the money spent is a good investment (again, unlike the first two) Signature"It is written in mathematical language" Remove spam and invalid from address to reply. In article <n61ZNWEscdj$EwKq@merseia.fsnet.co.uk>, Jonathan Silverlight <jsilverlight@spam.merseia.fsnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > In message <nhull-830646.17530015102003@corp.supernews.com>, Nick Hull > <nhull@access4less.net> writes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > nation's budget, and the money spent is a good investment (again, unlike > the first two) Agreed that space is a better investment, and that space is a tiny part of the US budget, but i'd bet it is a much larger part of China's budget - especially Chinas technology budget. Also I believe the space program there is run by the military. SignatureCommittees of Correspondence web page; free men own guns - slaves don't <www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/> |
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