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Space Forum / Shuttle / July 2009STS 2 through 4 handflown
I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with sideslip in the DAP that was discovered in STS-1. Can anyone confirm this? Danny Deger >I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were > intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with > sideslip in the DAP that was discovered in STS-1. Can anyone confirm > this? > > Danny Deger Yes. Do a search on history of this group, Mary has mentioned it a couple of times. http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.space.history/2009-01/msg00161.html  SignatureGreg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. >I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were > intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with > sideslip in the DAP that was discovered in STS-1. Can anyone confirm > this? Mary has posted this info (perhaps numerous times). Why don't you use Google Groups to search for her post(s) on this topic? Jeff Signature"Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon On Jun 29, 9:13 am, "Jeff Findley" <jeff.find...@ugs.nojunk.com> wrote: > >I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were > > intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National > Lampoon My info was originally a cut and paste from this group from Mary's posts. I have an update from a NASA source that the first non-zero roll command was flown at a reduced roll rate on 2 through 4 to prevent an over shoot and oscillation. Apparently the entire entry was not hand flown. I bet the roll oscillation and sideslip indicator being pegged did get Captain Youngs attention. Mary's description of his reaction was dead on. She really knows her stuff!!! Danny Deger Danny Deger > On Jun 29, 9:13 am, "Jeff Findley" <jeff.find...@ugs.nojunk.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > being pegged did get Captain Youngs attention. Mary's description of > his reaction was dead on. She really knows her stuff!!! An interesting paragraph from the book : The DFI recorder in the payload bay was to remain there for one more flight, because most of the DFI data had been lost on STS-1 and STS-4. This was a change in plans, but it could be accommodated. We had by then expanded the allowable flight center-of-gravity positions by several inches fore and aft as well as half an inch or so left and right of the centerline. This was important for the operational phase of the vehicle, although it was more of a bureaucratic definition for starting to fly useful payloads in the Shuttle. Those of us trying to understand the Shuttle's aerodynamic, aerothermodynamic, performance, and structural characteristics continued to work for varying lengths of time. The stability-and-control analysis was going to continue for 15 more years over more than 80 flights. This supports the assertion that the shuttle was much more a research vehicle than an operational vehicle (STS-5 being called the first "operational" flight by NASA). Jeff Signature"Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon snip > An interesting paragraph from the book : > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Jeff I trained the autopilot to the astronauts from 1990 to 1995. We were still working hard on updates to the autopilot and c.g. expansion even then. Danny Deger >snip > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I trained the autopilot to the astronauts from 1990 to 1995. We were still >working hard on updates to the autopilot and c.g. expansion even then. So? When I was on the '655 boat in the mid 80's, we were still tuning a wide variety of operational techniques. Some class specific (even though the class was approaching twenty years old) some more general (even though we had been submarining for most of a century). Boeing is still doing the same for each of it's models still in service. That NASA was doing so with the Shuttle seems to me to be weak support for the assertion at best. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL >>snip >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > That NASA was doing so with the Shuttle seems to me to be weak support > for the assertion at best. I strongly disagree with this statement. The shuttle ALT tests gave NASA good data for subsonic flight only. At the time, CFD was still in its infancy and supersonic wind tunnels were not only few and far between, but had problems of their own (very small size, run time limited to seconds, and etc.). In the 70's, we simply did not have a good handle on the aerodynamics of *any* winged vehicle traveling at hypersonic speeds. That's one of the reasons why there was a problem with the flight control system on STS-1 which resulted in a very frightening maneuver which briefly took the stagnation point off the RCC nose cap. This is precisely why STS-2 through STS-4 were handflown (the very subject of this thread). In other words, read the Space Shuttle chapters of this book: From Runway to Orbit: Reflections of a NASA Engineer http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media.php?id=4666 As someone with an aerospace engineering degree, I found it extremely enlightening. From an aerodynamics, flight dynamics, thermodynamics, and etc. point of view, the shuttle program was very much a research program over *much* more than STS-1 through STS-4 which was NASA's official orbital flight test program. In fact, data recorder failures were rampant on those early flights, so the team didn't even get much good data from those early "test flights". Jeff Signature"Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon >>>snip >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I strongly disagree with this statement. Drawing a curve through a point and repeating oneself isn't much of a disagreement. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL > I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were > intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with > sideslip in the DAP that was discovered in STS-1. Can anyone confirm > this? Sure. I can. It's even explicitly mentioned in a couple of reports about the Orbiter's stability and control derivatives. Go to the Dryden tech report server and look for Iliff. Mary "Or Iliff and Shafer" SignatureMary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it. reunite.gondwana@gmail.com or miliff@qnet.com Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/ On Jun 29, 8:37 pm, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" <reunite.gondw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I just read at a different site that STS-2 through 4 were > > intentionally hand flown all the way down to mitigate a problem with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > reunite.gondw...@gmail.com or mil...@qnet.com > Visit my blog athttp://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/ Mary, I loved your answer and immediately went looking. With tremendous respect for you however, I hated the result. I tried searchs on two unrelated subjects and got abstracts with links to the document in PDF format. Clicked on the PDF link and got this reply: To obtain additional information or request a copy of this report please write to: NASA Center for AeroSpace Information (CASI) 7115 Standard Drive Hanover, MD 21076-1320 Perhaps there is a good reason, but it seems to defeat the purpose for having a publically-available tech report server. Take care . . . John > On Jun 29, 8:37 pm, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" > <reunite.gondw...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 7115 Standard Drive > Hanover, MD 21076-1320 You're not trying very hard. I searched for the title of the book (the first hit when you search for Iliff on the Dryden Tech Report Server) and got this: http://www.amazon.com/runway-orbit-Reflections-engineer-history/dp/B0006S8PGW You can get a used copy for $39.60 + $3.99 shipping, which isn't bad for a book that appears to be out of print. But, since you're looking for the "easy" way to get this book, scrolling down the Google search result page, I spotted "free" and clicked on the link to find that if you want a free PDF, you can find it here: From Runway to Orbit: Reflections of a NASA Engineer http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media.php?id=4666 > Perhaps there is a good reason, but it seems to defeat the purpose for > having a publically-available tech report server. Part of this is the government's fault. That said, I think you gave up far too easily. Remember, Google is your friend! Jeff Signature"Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon On Jun 30, 3:24 pm, "Jeff Findley" <jeff.find...@ugs.nojunk.com> wrote: > You're not trying very hard. . . >That said, I think you gave up far too easily. > > Remember, Google is your friend! > > Jeff > -- Jeff . . . I cannot argue the results I got several days ago, because today, as you described, it was the first hit. I perhaps I was the victim of my own input error . . . or the lesser diety overwatching the internet was not happy with me. Nonetheless, my report of my first results was accurate. That said, I acknoledge that Google is my friend and that I am certainly not its Master. LOL A good weekend to you and everyone else . . . John > On Jun 29, 8:37 pm, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" > <reunite.gondw...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Perhaps there is a good reason, but it seems to defeat the purpose for > having a publically-available tech report server. Was that the book? "Runway to Orbit"? That wasn't what I meant, because it's an actual hardbound book, not a report.. Try searching the archive for Iliff and Shafer sometime in the early '90s. You're looking for a paper, which is small enough to put out from that site, not a book. I believe you can buy the book used on Amazon. Or you can go to work at Dryden and then go ask nicely in the History Office and get a free copy. If you do get a copy, I can get the first author to sign it for you if you pay the shipping. The second author will probably sign, too, but I don't have quite the same access to him, so I can't make the same guarantee. Mary "And you can look me up in the index." SignatureMary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it. reunite.gondwana@gmail.com or miliff@qnet.com Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/ |
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