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Project 0: A summary of four projects in design study for a space     rescue craft.

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David E. Powell - 07 Mar 2009 05:50 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen, some time back I posted a question in the thread
regarding two engines being researched for the F-35 program,
mentioning the possibility of a space rescue craft for emergency use,
if something went wrong with a spacecraft in orbit.

Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
some time, and had actually been thinking of how I would present it.
My first concept is similar to what I had been thinking of. I thank
Mr. Tucker for mentioning the Dyna-Soar program, because that is quite
similar to the type of craft I was considering.

Thinking it over, I tried to come up with designs for such a craft. I
came to the conclusion rather quickly that such a craft would need a
combination of several factors to be successful. It would need to be
able to prepare for a launch quickly, because a time window might be
very short in space. It would need to be based as much as possible in
existing technologies and equipment, to speed design and production as
well as keep costs manageable. While the life of a single human being
is without question beyond man’s ability to judge, the facts of
procurement being what they are, a lower budget would make for a
better chance of acceptance and development. It would also need a
capacity for at least seven or eight rescued passengers.

I also came to the conclusion that there would be two major branches
of rescue craft design that I could explore. The first would be an
unmanned craft, which would launch unmanned and be guided to the
stricken craft by remote control. The second would involve manned
spacecraft. Each type of craft had their own unique benefits and
concerns.

For an unmanned craft, there were several advantages. First, as an
unmanned craft, the G-loading and stresses of the launch phase could
be greater, without concern for human passengers. The design limits
for the craft in the launch phase could be pushed some. Second, the
craft could be smaller, with room for the rescued crew only on board.
Also, supplies aboard would necessarily take up less space and weight
than if there were a rescue crew aboard along with the rescued crew.
Finally, the unmanned craft would not put any additional personnel at
risk. They would go up, the crew would board, and then they would go
home.

There were also advantages that a manned craft had that an unmanned
one lacked. First, the human input during the launch phase would allow
for response to an emergency or problem, and increased chance of
mission success. Also, the presence of a human crew in space would
mean that the rescue crew could be an active part of the rescue,
assisting the marooned crew in clearing debris that might block their
escape, assessing the damage to their craft, helping to evacuate
injured crew members, and providing medical attention. These are all
invaluable functions that an unmanned craft would be less capable of
providing than a manned craft. As always, there are things that humans
can do in space than no machine can do, but the risk of exploration is
always present when humans go into space. As it has been since
Gagarin, so it is now.

This may bring the question of why I want a capacity of seven or eight
for my projected rescue vehicle. I will explain. The higher capacity
might be fitting for shuttle missions, and the shuttle is due to
retire eventually, but then again one cannot know the future. Perhaps
a problem would happen on the ISS that would render the Soyuz escape
capsule inaccessible. Perhaps the shuttle may continue flying into the
time where my rescue vehicle enters service. Perhaps a foreign craft
might get in trouble with more than three people needing a rescue. Or,
perhaps there might be future craft with more people we have not yet
envisioned. I look to my rescue ship project as something to be
developed and kept in service into the future, with a long service
life, able to be used with future craft as well as those of the
present. Updated, as the Atlas series of rockets have been, and
available into the future. This will provide a new era in space
travel, a space Coast Guard of sorts, and keep development costs down
in the future, as an existing system would be available for decades to
come.

This is a list of concepts for a rescue ship that can be used as soon
as she enters service and can continue in service in case of orbital
emergency for the next twenty years or more. I intend all of the
listed designs to fill that need, so that a crew in a damaged
spacecraft need not be “lost in space” in the future.

They Are: The Rescue Boats.

1. The Lead Sled
2. The Stacker II
3. The Flying Squirrel (The Dip-Chick)
4. The Bruce Willis Special

The first concept is the Lead Sled. This is the one I was thinking of
when I conceived this thread. It is a Dyna-Soar like craft, launched
on the proven ATLAS V – CENTAUR rocket. It was conceived originally as
a craft that would be launched unmanned and flown to a stricken
spacecraft by remote control. The Lead Sled, as its name would imply,
is a spaceplane, much like the Dyna-Soar, and will land as a glider on
a runway, most likely landing at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Of course,
any runway capable of handling a shuttle landing would be a suitable
backup location.

The second idea I had, I have dubbed the Stacker II. It is a space
capsule, with space for seven or eight people. The space is cleared by
stripping science gear from a capsule built using knowledge from the
ARES program. The name refers to the likelihood that there would need
to be two levels for rescued crew members put in to allow for a larger
crew capacity. Like the Lead Sled, she would launch atop an ATLAS V –
CENTAUR rocket combination. Also like the Sled, the Stacker II was
conceived as a spacecraft which would be launched unmanned. Unlike the
Sled, the Stacker II would re-enter much as an ARES or Apollo capsule,
using the method used since the Mercury program. The Stacker II
capsule would parachute to a landing at sea after re-entry.

Up third is “The Flying Squirrel.” I based the Squirrel on a concept I
had seen a while back during the X-Prize competitions. A quick look
around turned up some NASA data on similar experiments. This would be
a towed craft, which would be towed to a high altitude by a
conventional aircraft before releasing and launching herself into
orbit under rocket power. The tow plane or mother plane that I chose
was the Boeing 747 SP. As the aircraft are available for a reasonable
price, capable of relatively high altitude, and lighter in body weight
than a standard 747, I believe that they offer excellent potential as
tow planes for the Flying Squirrel. The towed craft would go into
orbit, meet up with the ship in distress, and there she would be to
pick up the crew. Unlike the first two, the Flying Squirrel was
conceived from the start as a manned spacecraft. Her crew, trained in
spaceflight and equipped with an array of tools in case of difficulty,
would actively assist in the rescue as well as flying the Squirrel up
into orbit and flying her back home once the pickup of the crew in
distress was complete. Like the Lead Sled, the Flying Squirrel would
land as a glider, most likely doing so at Vandenberg Air Force Base,
though any shuttle capable runway would be a capable backup location.

My final design concept is the Bruce Willis Special. This is a fully
functional spaceplane, with dual turbojet and rocket propulsion
systems. She is intended to fly to the limit of her jet engine
performance, mainly depending on fuel carried in external tanks, and
then discard them. At that point she will zoom climb to a transition
point where the jet engines will shut down and rocket propulsion
systems on board the Special will take over for the final push into
orbit. She will be, as her name suggests, fitting of the plane you
call on when things need repairing in space. The Special will have the
means to dock with a stricken craft and pick up survivors, as well as
a crew trained in rescue techniques and equipped with tools to help
clear obstructions that might be preventing them from exiting their
vehicle. The Bruce Willis Special is intended to land by reentering
the atmosphere on a shallow glide path, gliding to lower altitude, and
finally either landing as a glider or possibly using a small amount of
remaining jet fuel to make a powered landing, or as insurance in case
a go-around is needed at the airfield. Like the Lead Sled and the
Flying Squirrel, the Bruce Willis Special would be able to use any
runway capable of handling the Space Shuttle as a backup landing
location.

So there are my capsule reviews (wink wink, nudge nudge) of my four
designs. More detailed looks at each will be posted here for comment.
They will also be cross-posted to the sci.space.shuttle newsgroup. In
conclusion, I will share some final thoughts that came to me while
looking over these four concepts in particular as well as the concept
of a space rescue vehicle in particular.

The closest parallels I can see to such craft are in the rescue craft
designed over the years for submarine rescue around the world. The
Stacker II may be seen as a diving bell of sorts, returning a crew
from outer space instead of the deep sea, in a single rush, taking
them back to the surface of the sea. However, for all four designs,
and for any future rescue craft, the greatest parallel is with the
United States Navy’s Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle, or DSRV.

Among the lessons of such craft that can be applied in space are the
following: First, the craft must be conceived with the possibility
that she may have to dock with foreign craft in a rescue attempt or
dock with future craft yet to be designed or known. As such, any
docking or rescue equipment must allow for some variety of hatches or
craft profile. There must also be backups to the main system allowing
transfer even if the two craft cannot dock flush to one another. One
method which also has a history in sea rescues is the system of
sending lines or cables across the gap between the two vessels. This
could be a simple yet effective backup if direct docking is not
possible. There are various methods of accomplishing this, which I go
into further detail with in the individual design concept reviews.
Variations on gas-powered line cannon and small maneuvering thruster
units which could tow a line from one ship to another via remote
control are both possibilities.

The most important element will of course be crew training. This has
been demonstrated time and again by the United States Coast Guard and
by lifesaving services throughout the world. In the crews being
rescued, their level of training will be important. For crews on a
rescue craft, they will be important as well. This is one key
advantage that a manned rescue craft will have. The crews of a manned
rescue craft must be part aerospace mechanic, part astronaut, and part
Para rescue jumper.

Anyway, the reasons for such a craft are obvious. I have tried to vary
them in type but stick as close as possible to things already known
and items which could be bought off the shelf. Perhaps the last
design, the Bruce Willis Special, requires the most in new design.
However, it also has the quickest time window from receiving word of a
problem until launch. This is a key factor which I look at in all of
my design studies, as it would by of great importance if there was a
time critical situation in space. Also, all of the designs requiring a
runway landing could use the existing network of Space Shuttle runways
to land.

The Space Rescue Program gives NASA a chance to give a last chance to
astronauts in distress, or to crews of other nations’ space programs
who find themselves stranded in space. It gives NASA a chance, however
slim, to change a potential disaster into a triumph. It will give new
purpose and energy to the space program, and a new shot of power to
the image of space flight. Finally, it will usher in a new era of
space flight, an era of rescue crews and vessels standing ready to
help crews in distress regardless of nationality or circumstance. It
will be a renewal of the brotherhood between all humanity in space,
and a sign of it on earth.

With so much development work already done on each of the concepts I
have outlined, and the likelihood that a manned spaceflight presence
in orbital space will continue for the next few decades, I would also
conclude that there is no reason not to do it. This is an idea that
must be a part of future spaceflight. The moderate expense and long-
term utility make it worthwhile in budget terms, and the nature of the
mission makes it a natural extension of the American manned space
program in human terms.

What will follow this post will be four capsule studies of the Rescue
Boat concepts that I have mentioned above. I would like follow-ups and
discussion of these concepts, as well as the concept of a space rescue
craft in general, to be in this thread.

If there are replies to the four following threads, I would prefer
them to be specific to those designs. Replies to the idea of rescue
craft in general, etc. can be posted in response to this post. This
will keep there from being a giant crossover between the threads that
could make it hard to keep track.

Thank you very much for your patience in reading.

David Powell in New Jersey
Julian Bordas - 07 Mar 2009 08:23 GMT
If we, or the Americans :-) could build something like the first three.
Why would they bother with Orion?

The Lead Sled or a stretch dynasoar sounds good, so why does NASA ignore it?

The dynasoar reminds me of the earth re entry craft from "UFO"

> Ladies and Gentlemen, some time back I posted a question in the thread
> regarding two engines being researched for the F-35 program,
> mentioning the possibility of a space rescue craft for emergency use,
> if something went wrong with a spacecraft in orbit.
John Doe - 07 Mar 2009 13:17 GMT
> Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
> this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
> some time, and had actually been thinking of how I would present it.
> My first concept is similar to what I had been thinking of. I thank
> Mr. Tucker for mentioning the Dyna-Soar program, because that is quite
> similar to the type of craft I was considering.

One first needs to study the various scenarios that would require such a
launch.

Some of those scenarios might favour landing ANYWHERE ASAP. (massive sun
storm or meteor shower). Some would favour landing ASAP but within reach
of a hospital. If you land in middle of australia ASAP but it takes 3
hours to get you to a hospital by helicopter, you be better off to delay
de-orbit by 30 minutes and land somewhere in north ameirca where it
would take only 2 hours to get you to hospital.

If you have a shuttle (or whatever) crew with cabin depressurized and
they are living off launch/re-entry suits, then you want a vehicle that
can not only be readied fast, but also has sinificant cross range during
ascent so that it doesn't need to wait up to 23 hours for the orbital
planes to be aligned. The ability to lauch north-east AND south-east
would give you 2 launch windows per day.

You also want a vehicle that can launch in any weather. Ideally, the
"Virgin Galactic" concept helps with that because a plane can fly you
away from or above thunderstorms and you can then launch. If you are
stuck at a pad and there are thunderstorms coming your way, they may
inhibit launch during your valuable launch window.
teuton263@aol.com - 07 Mar 2009 13:32 GMT
> > Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
> > this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> stuck at a pad and there are thunderstorms coming your way, they may
> inhibit launch during your valuable launch window.

Been studied before:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/nasaacrv.htm

Rob
bob haller - 07 Mar 2009 15:22 GMT
On Mar 7, 8:32�am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:

> > > Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
> > > this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

MOOSE is a far better idea. onboard for immediate use, in a true
emergency that can save lives.

not dependent on anything but the crew onboard.....

but honestly a rescue craft should be built. we need multiple
redundant safety rescue crafts.

how about some long life ones that hang out in orbit waiting for
emergencies and activation?

we kept ICBMs ready to go at the push of a button, we should have some
silos  for rescue or emergency supply crafts
David E. Powell - 07 Mar 2009 21:55 GMT
> On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> we kept ICBMs ready to go at the push of a button, we should have some
> silos  for rescue or emergency supply crafts

Or combine the two.... put a rescue craft on top of a modified surplus
Minuteman booster. If it is unmanned it could be launched on short
notice.
Jack Linthicum - 07 Mar 2009 22:04 GMT
> > On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> Minuteman booster. If it is unmanned it could be launched on short
> notice.

How independent is this rescue craft? The Minuteman is solid
propellant and doesn't do maneuvers except in targeting. Your rescue
craft would need total ability to change plane and altitude, plus
start stop. It would make launch and calculations easier if the launch
point for the rescue operation was the same as the rescuees.
David E. Powell - 08 Mar 2009 06:14 GMT
> > > On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> start stop. It would make launch and calculations easier if the launch
> point for the rescue operation was the same as the rescuees.

True. My apologies. I was thinking of a quick method, while the solids
have reaction time and the Minuteman is already out there, I didn't
think that one through.

I'll have to stick with my other designs, which were envisioned to be
more maneuver capable.

As another poster said, the trick is funding, but given that it is an
all out rescue craft for one and that it is planned for a long service
life, the cost is moderated some. In truth, one successful mission
will more than justify the cost.

NASA being able to turn a crisis in space into a positive would be
huge.
Ken S. Tucker - 08 Mar 2009 06:49 GMT
> > > > On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> NASA being able to turn a crisis in space into a positive would be
> huge.

These ARES look like an excellent concept,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Size_Comparison2.png
I suppose an ARES 1 could be kept on standby for a
rescue mode, but in what scenario(s) would it be used and
what are the chances of those scenarios occuring, and is it
worth it? It's like buying insurance for an airplane hitting
your house.
Ken
David E. Powell - 08 Mar 2009 07:10 GMT
> > > > > On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> your house.
> Ken

I like your idea for the ARES 1. It is a slim chance on every launch,
but with all the launches they have, the odds grow that there might be
a problem. I was thinkig of scenarios where a craft could not de-
orbit, due to a fear of heat shield damage, or loss of thruster
capability. Something like a fear of a Columbia situation, or the
worry people had on an early Mercury flight when there was a question
o fhow a heat shield was doing in orbit. Or a situation where a
craft's de-orbit thrusters failed or some other damage occured.

Mainly I was worried about "whatever might go wrong" which would
entail a lot of thought into a design, depending whether it was a
simple rescue ship or capsule or whether it was an all up amnned
rescue ship with a crew capable of actively working to free a trapped
crew.
Ken S. Tucker - 08 Mar 2009 20:23 GMT
On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
wrote:

> > > > > > On Mar 7, 8:32 am, teuton...@aol.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> rescue ship with a crew capable of actively working to free a trapped
> crew.

Weird economics follows: Where Columbia is concerned,
the foam problem was known, now NASA could have
scaled down the quantity of Shuttles flights, and use the
money saved to fix the foam problem, where $ are able to
flow from Quantity to Quality.
If OTOH, NASA tried to solve the problem by building an
entirely independant rescue system to account for that,
$ would have been removed from the Quantity & Quality
of the Shuttle program.

Of course such a system would have no effect on the
Challenger disaster, which in hind-sight should have
been solved on the ground too.

De-orbiting thruster failure, AFIAK hasn't happened.

Severe micro-meteor strike hasn't happened, though if it
did, that would be messy.
Ken
David E. Powell - 08 Mar 2009 23:58 GMT
> On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>
> De-orbiting thruster failure, AFIAK hasn't happened.

I remember one of the 1960s missions had a problem with thruster
failure, but that was the other kid - a thruster wouldn't shut off and
they ended up spinning for a while.

> Severe micro-meteor strike hasn't happened, though if it
> did, that would be messy.

I agree. I guess I was thinking on a catch-all basis, about all the
things that could go wrong. Given the "what if" I just feel it would
be a nice option to have a rescue vehicle. Also, it could stay in use
for years which would mean a good long term payoff for the design
work.

> Ken
Ken S. Tucker - 09 Mar 2009 07:58 GMT
> > On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> failure, but that was the other kid - a thruster wouldn't shut off and
> they ended up spinning for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_8

> > Severe micro-meteor strike hasn't happened, though if it
> > did, that would be messy.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for years which would mean a good long term payoff for the design
> work.

Ken
bob haller - 09 Mar 2009 13:26 GMT
a severe micro meteroid impact will likely depress and kill the crew
quickly.

and turning whatever they were in ...............

into a space junk impactor

given the littering of LEO its highly possible it will becme unusable
in the future:(
frank - 10 Mar 2009 07:27 GMT
> On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> did, that would be messy.
> Ken

One of the Shuttle flights had a speck of paint hit the Shuttle
windshield, there was a pretty spectacular ding in it. I don't know if
the photo is online, but made the rounds when it landed. Way back on
one of the 80s flights, so you have to be really old to remember it.
At the time, I forgot how thick and how many layers the shuttle
windshield was made of. Because of that was one of the reasons.
Sometimes engineers get is right, sort of. It was one of those small
pieces of stuff that's out in low earth orbit.

then again, 17000 MPH provides quite an impulse to anything when it
hits.

I don't recall any other orbital damage. Though talking to some of the
satellite designers way back when, there was enough crap in LEO that
most of the degradation of the solar panels was due to debris that was
man made. Deeper space orbits, it was mostly natural stuff.

Part of the workaround was designing solar panels that would degrade
over a period of time to keep the satellites working through their
lifespan.

Of course people to talk to about this would be Russians as they used
more stuff in LEO that US did, but had shorter mission times. Maybe
that was their tradeoff, but never heard that discussed.
Ken S. Tucker - 10 Mar 2009 09:24 GMT
> > On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
> the photo is online, but made the rounds when it landed. Way back on
> one of the 80s flights, so you have to be really old to remember it.

LOL, I membered this one,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(satellite)

> At the time, I forgot how thick and how many layers the shuttle
> windshield was made of. Because of that was one of the reasons.
> Sometimes engineers get is right, sort of. It was one of those small
> pieces of stuff that's out in low earth orbit.

Yup, I recall that, found this ref,
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-73/sts-73-day-08-highlights.html

"Shuttle windows encounter dings from orbital debris or natural
material such as meteoroids from time to time. The dings are analyzed
by scientists after the shuttle has landed to determine size and
material source. JSC debris scientists said the largest ding returned
on a shuttle window thus far occurred on STS-59 in April 1994. The
ding measured one-half an inch in diameter and was caused by an
orbiting paint chip. Based on what they saw in the downlinked video,
scientists estimated the Columbia's ding was most likely no larger
than about one-eighth of an inch across, but said exact measurements
and a determination of the source material would have to await the
shuttle's return to Earth. "

> then again, 17000 MPH provides quite an impulse to anything when it
> hits.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> more stuff in LEO that US did, but had shorter mission times. Maybe
> that was their tradeoff, but never heard that discussed.

LEO has the advantage of a wisp of atmosphere that can
break the orbit to decay for small bit's fairly quickly.
Ken
PS: I suspect the Apollo's were placed in very low orbits
so if a de-orbiting thruster failed the crew would break to
earth.
bob haller - 10 Mar 2009 15:30 GMT
> > > On Mar 7, 10:10 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 168 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

my recollection is after landing they traced to source of the paint
chip, might have been russian.

on apollo a booster remained in orbit for years.

orbits were low enough to use either the re entry pack or manuvering
engines as a back up
bob haller - 10 Mar 2009 15:32 GMT
if the paint chip had hit during re entry wonder if it would of caused
loss of poressure?
Joseph Nebus - 12 Mar 2009 15:57 GMT
>LEO has the advantage of a wisp of atmosphere that can
>break the orbit to decay for small bit's fairly quickly.
>Ken
>PS: I suspect the Apollo's were placed in very low orbits
>so if a de-orbiting thruster failed the crew would break to
>earth.

    Or because transferring to a higher orbit, like one that gets to
the Moon, is best done when the spacecraft is moving as fast as possible,
that is to say, when its orbit is as low as can get; and in as short a
burn as possible, that is, without the parking orbit ever getting too
high.  

Signature

                                Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David E. Powell - 12 Mar 2009 20:18 GMT
> >LEO has the advantage of a wisp of atmosphere that can
> >break the orbit to decay for small bit's fairly quickly.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> burn as possible, that is, without the parking orbit ever getting too
> high.  

True that. The other benefits would all add in. But it was a pretty
neat way for it to add up.

By the way, another argument for a space rescue craft today:

(The Astronauts were evacuated to the ISS' Soyuz Lifeboat just in
case.)

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D96SK9083&show_article=1

> --
>                                                                 Joseph Nebus
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---
Ken S. Tucker - 12 Mar 2009 22:30 GMT
Hi Joseph.

> >LEO has the advantage of a wisp of atmosphere that can
> >break the orbit to decay for small bit's fairly quickly.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> burn as possible, that is, without the parking orbit ever getting too
> high.

I've written numerous n-body gravitation simulations,
and regard myself as mediocre, so I need to study
that more too.
Thanks
Ken
Andrew Swallow - 08 Mar 2009 23:45 GMT
[snip]

>> As another poster said, the trick is funding, but given that it is an
>> all out rescue craft for one and that it is planned for a long service
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> your house.
> Ken

Only under very optomistic conditions can the Ares I even lift its
Orion capsule so you can forget that as an emergency launch vehicle.
The Ares V is too expensive even for moon trips so it is unlikely
to even be completed.
So you will have to invent a special rocket, use an existing design
or pre-place the rescue in orbit and give it a large fuel tank.

Andrew Swallow
Keith Willshaw - 07 Mar 2009 22:32 GMT
On Mar 7, 10:22 am, bob haller <hall...@aol.com> wrote:

> how about some long life ones that hang out in orbit waiting for
> emergencies and activation?
>
>> we kept ICBMs ready to go at the push of a button, we should have some
>> silos for rescue or emergency supply crafts

> Or combine the two.... put a rescue craft on top of a modified surplus
> Minuteman booster. If it is unmanned it could be launched on short
> notice.

The minor problem with that idea is the Minuteman doesnt develop
enough delta V to put anything in orbit.

There really is no need to develop a new booster for a rescue system.
The Russians build a nice cheap and reliable system using the Soyuz.

The Russian Proton boosters can put quite heavy packages in LEO as can
the Americans with the Delta system and  ESA with Ariane 5. There is
also the new Ares system being developed for Orion.

The real problem is getting someone to pay for it.

Keith
David E. Powell - 07 Mar 2009 15:16 GMT
> > Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
> > this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> de-orbit by 30 minutes and land somewhere in north ameirca where it
> would take only 2 hours to get you to hospital.

That's one of the reasons I like the glider landing profile. Besides
the backup shuttle runways, it might be able to use SAC style runways
around the world.

The one that lands in water (The Stacker II) could have several
potential landing areas too. (I prefer glider landing over that
though.)

> If you have a shuttle (or whatever) crew with cabin depressurized and
> they are living off launch/re-entry suits, then you want a vehicle that
> can not only be readied fast, but also has sinificant cross range during
> ascent so that it doesn't need to wait up to 23 hours for the orbital
> planes to be aligned. The ability to lauch north-east AND south-east
> would give you 2 launch windows per day.

Good points.

> You also want a vehicle that can launch in any weather. Ideally, the
> "Virgin Galactic" concept helps with that because a plane can fly you
> away from or above thunderstorms and you can then launch. If you are
> stuck at a pad and there are thunderstorms coming your way, they may
> inhibit launch during your valuable launch window.

Very true.
Ken S. Tucker - 07 Mar 2009 19:05 GMT
> > Mr. Ken S. Tucker asked if I would start a separate thread regarding
> > this concept, and expand upon it. It is an area I had considered for
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> stuck at a pad and there are thunderstorms coming your way, they may
> inhibit launch during your valuable launch window.

We have experience with operating crews in very isolated and
quite hazardous conditions here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen-Scott_South_Pole_Station
Note:In 1999 the Dr. developed breast cancer, and was eventually
evacuated.
The ISS has redundant support modules and an emergency
lifeboat reentry vehicle.

An example to learn from is Apollo 13 were the LM was used
efffectively as an emergency module. It might be a good idea
to have a pair of interlocked but independantly life supported
modules on manned lunar ferry missions.
Ken
 
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