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Space Forum / Shuttle / December 2008Shuttle piggyback question...
How much extra security is the shuttle afforded when piggybacking from CA. to FLA? Chase planes etc? These 747s are now quite old also of course, Lets hope they don't accidentally drop it. Brian  SignatureBrian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff' in the display name may be lost. Blind user, so no pictures please! > How much extra security is the shuttle afforded when piggybacking from CA. > to FLA? > > Chase planes etc? > These 747s are now quite old also of course, Lets hope they don't > accidentally drop it. > > Brian Extremely unlikely. I mean you don't hear too many 747s simply falling out of the sky lately. SignatureGreg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. No you don't, but many are not as old as these are. Werid weather you folks been having, I mean 82 degrees this time of year in Florida and Snow in Houston? Hmm. Brian SignatureBrian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ >> These 747s are now quite old also of course, Lets hope they don't >> accidentally drop it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Extremely unlikely. I mean you don't hear too many 747s simply falling > out of the sky lately. >No you don't, but many are not as old as these are. But very well maintained and much lower mileage than most other 747's their age. >Werid weather you folks been having, I mean 82 degrees this time of year in >Florida and Snow in Houston? Only the "snow in Houston" part is weird. Brian > Only the "snow in Houston" part is weird. > > Brian hey, now snow here in the houston area is not THAT unheard of. it used to snow here every few years when i was a kid. Signatureif at first you don't succeed..... slit your throat and watch it bleed. l. niel smith nagasaki vector > These 747s are now quite old also of course, Lets hope they don't > accidentally drop it. > > Brian that nearly occured when shuttle wasnt bolted properly to 747, it nearly fell off:( some years ago it was on the news talk about a PR disaster, espically if it had hit a school mor something:( On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > > These 747s are now quite old also of course, Lets hope they don't > > accidentally drop it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > talk about a PR disaster, espically if it had hit a school mor > something:( more Haller unsubstantiated BS On Dec 11, 12:29�pm, charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Dec 11, 8:39�am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > more Haller unsubstantiated BS goggle it it was a close thing, and actually happened. if there had been more wind, ooops we lost a shuttle it fell onto whatever.......... > On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > more Haller unsubstantiated BS Charlie, Mr. Haller knows what he is talking about. From a 1997 Reuters article: "The space shuttle Atlantis was not properly anchored to its carrier aircraft for a piggyback ride across the country last week, and was at risk of a catastrophic fall, NASA officials said Tuesday." http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9711/18/space.bolts.reut/ > charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9711/18/space.bolts.reut/ for many years there was only one ferry aircraft. are these aircraft used for anything else when not ferrying shuttles? On Dec 14, 3:51 pm, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > > charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > for many years there was only one ferry aircraft. are these aircraft > used for anything else when not ferrying shuttles? no, they have no other use > On Dec 14, 3:51 pm, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> > wrote: > > for many years there was only one ferry aircraft. are these aircraft > > used for anything else when not ferrying shuttles? > > no, they have no other use They're also flown for aircrew currency. Of course, the aircrew wouldn't need to be current if they weren't ferrying Orbiters. Mary "Still, it's not the same." SignatureMary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it. reunite.gondwana@gmail.com or miliff@qnet.com Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/ In sci.space.shuttle message <re7mk4deulnhms3b397vshmupkievalsm8@4ax.com >, Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:08:28, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" <reunite.gondwana@gmail.com> posted: >> On Dec 14, 3:51 pm, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >They're also flown for aircrew currency. Of course, the aircrew >wouldn't need to be current if they weren't ferrying Orbiters. That seems a bit wasteful of resources. Does an SCA, without Orbiter, fly more-or-less normally? If so, it could be used for other tasks. How much of a Falcon 9 could be transported in and on an SCA? Signature(c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME. Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links; Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc. No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News. Het is zò dat Dr J R Stockton formuleerde : > In sci.space.shuttle message <re7mk4deulnhms3b397vshmupkievalsm8@4ax.com >> , Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:08:28, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > How much of a Falcon 9 could be transported in and on an SCA? A SCA (A.F.A.I.K.) can not be used fot other tasks but the transport of a shuttle. The reason is all the un-needed stuff is stripped out a SCA to make it as light as possible. If I recall correctly, there is not even a toilet for the flight-crew aboard the SCA. > In sci.space.shuttle message <re7mk4deulnhms3b397vshmupkieval...@4ax.com>, Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:08:28, "Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)" > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > How much of a Falcon 9 could be transported in and on an SCA? none. It is not a 747 freighter > charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9711/18/space.bolts.reut/ That was just hype. It wasn't going to fall off "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" in spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " >> charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: >>> On Dec 11, 8:39 am, bob haller safety advocate <hall...@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" in > spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " Can you clarify who actually said that, or was it just some unnamed "sources" in the article? The Senior shuttle manager at Kennedy, Donald McMonagle, said otherwise at the time. I'll take his information over unnamed sources. He certainly wouldn't have any motivation to hype. "It could have been very potentially serious," said Donald McMonagle, a senior shuttle manager at the Kennedy Space Center. It was a very lucky day. > charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> charliexmur...@yahoo.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - many here try to minimize even the appearance of problems, which sadly leads to bad events. its a agency problem. nasa should always track the incidence rate of near accidents, and if it spikes stand down till the causes are found. the flying catch rates got me to predict a disaster before the columbia loss, it would be simple for nasa to track rates like flying catches to prevent future disasters > "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" in > spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " At normal airspeed and altitude used to ferry the shuttle, if the shuttle were to "cleanly" detach from the 747, would it have the ability to glide with with controllability and land assuming there was a runway nearby ? Or would it drop like a brick ? When they did the original drop tests with the Enterprise, how fast/high was the 747 going, and by the time the shuttle was near the ground, had it reached roughly the same speed that a real shuttle has just before landing ? (Did the Enterprise have ay dead weight to get it to same weight as a real shuttle (engines + cargo) ? >> "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" in >> spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to glide with with controllability and land assuming there was a runway >nearby ? Or would it drop like a brick ? The lack of crew on the shuttle would be a bit of a problem :) -- >> "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" in >> spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to glide with with controllability and land assuming there was a runway > nearby ? Or would it drop like a brick ? Note the keyword is "cleanly" detach. The nose bracket is shorter for ferry flights than it was for the ATL flights. The lost ALT flight altitude was at 19,000 feet. Landing was 2 mins, 1 sec later. > When they did the original drop tests with the Enterprise, how fast/high > was the 747 going, and by the time the shuttle was near the ground, had > it reached roughly the same speed that a real shuttle has just before > landing ? (Did the Enterprise have ay dead weight to get it to same > weight as a real shuttle (engines + cargo) ? The engines were dummy, but I think they massed the same. SignatureGreg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote in news:bcudnQlEptsp7NXUnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@earthlink.com: >>> "Space agency sources said the shuttle "was not about to fall off" >>> in spite of the damage to the bolts discovered at Palmdale. " [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The lost ALT flight altitude was at 19,000 feet. Landing was 2 mins, > 1 sec later. All beside the point. The orbiter is unpowered during ferry flight. If it detaches for whatever reason, it will be an uncontrolled flight, and it will tumble and crash. > "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote in > news:bcudnQlEptsp7NXUnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@earthlink.com: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The orbiter is unpowered during ferry flight. If it detaches for whatever > reason, it will be an uncontrolled flight, and it will tumble and crash. Well, that and lack of crew on-board. I was sort of ignoring those little details :-) SignatureGreg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. >> "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote in >> news:bcudnQlEptsp7NXUnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@earthlink.com: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Well, that and lack of crew on-board. I was sort of ignoring those little > details :-) It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. It would stick out as silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. Jeff Signature"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today. My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson > It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. It would stick out as > silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. I'll rephrase the question to avoid such silly interpreetations: If the shuttle were dropped from the 747 at a speed and altitude normally used for ferry ops, would it have enough altitude and airspeed to be manoeuvrable. And the answer seemed to be "yes". > > It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. �It would stick out as > > silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > normally used for ferry ops, would it have enough altitude and airspeed > to be manoeuvrable. And the answer seemed to be "yes". yeah but its transported with no power, no one onboard and likely not in range of a landing strip. but geez would this be big news:( >> It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. It would stick out as >> silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > normally used for ferry ops, would it have enough altitude and airspeed > to be manoeuvrable. And the answer seemed to be "yes". Unless the shuttle was released at just the right profile (airspeed and angle of attack), the shuttle would collide with the vertical stabilizer of the 747, spelling doom for both aircraft regardless of altitude. Calculating this profile was critical to the approach and landing tests and the margin of error was rather slim. > >> It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. �It would stick out as > >> silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Calculating this profile was critical to the approach and landing tests > and the margin of error was rather slim. someone should write a sci fi book, the day they stole the shuttle..... where somone sneaks onboard the ferry aircraft, and stels the shuttle.... It could be a movie too:( >>>> It's a silly theoretical question to begin with. �It would stick out as >>>> silly even in a very bad sci-fi novel. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > It could be a movie too:( As the plot unwinds, it turns out that NASA was trying to induce the shuttle's theft in the hopes of bankrupting the thief's fiscal budget for decades to come.... > someone should write a sci fi book, the day they stole the > shuttle..... It's been done already. http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0079574/ --> Moonraker. James Bond investigates the mid-air theft of a space shuttle and discovers a plot to commit global genocide From the trivia section: # It was the first movie to feature the modern space shuttle in a motion picture. The film's release was suppose to coincide with the first ever launch of the space shuttle, but this unfortunately didn't occur until 12 April 1981, just before the release of the next James Bond movie, For Your Eyes Only (1981), and exactly twenty years after Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space (12 April 1961). > How much extra security is the shuttle afforded when piggybacking from CA. > to FLA? > > Chase planes etc? I expect NASA won't make the same mistake as Drax Industries, and transport it with a full tank. SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% >> How much extra security is the shuttle afforded when piggybacking from >> CA. to FLA? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I expect NASA won't make the same mistake as Drax Industries, and > transport it with a full tank. Well somehow Drax Industries figured out a way to have the fuel internal to the orbiter. Very impressive. Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. |
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