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Space Forum / Shuttle / April 2008How can Boeing and LockMart compete with SpaceX?
Price for an LEO launch of the Falcon Heavy (29+ tonne payload) is just $94.5 million - Delta IV Heavy is currently $250 million + with a smaller payload. http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php also quotes a price for "TLI missions" - why do I get the feeling that Elon Musk want's to be the 13th person on the Moon... The F9H would get a 3-3.5 tonne payload onto the surface. That brings up the possibility of something like the Langley Lander/ Langley Lander Light and a modified Gemini-sized spacecraft. Interesting stuff! I've heard mention of a much larger engine for the Falcon series - F-1 power levels - if this is done, then my Delta V might be better named Falcon Extra Heavy or similar. > Price for an LEO launch of the Falcon Heavy (29+ tonne payload) is just > $94.5 million - Delta IV Heavy is currently $250 million + with a smaller [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > levels - if this is done, then my Delta V might be better named Falcon Extra > Heavy or similar. They can compete easily. Spacex's prices are just like the initial shuttle flight rate projections, not based on any real world experience. >Price for an LEO launch of the Falcon Heavy (29+ tonne payload) is just >$94.5 million - Delta IV Heavy is currently $250 million + with a smaller >payload. NASA was quoted well over $400 million for a Delta IV-H. (So much for cost savings versus Titan IV...) >http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php also quotes a price for "TLI >missions" - why do I get the feeling that Elon Musk want's to be the 13th >person on the Moon... The F9H would get a 3-3.5 tonne payload onto the >surface. He has to make a rocket that works first. Any rocket. Just get one into orbit, and no song-and-dance about how *almost* working is cause for celebration. Brian > NASA was quoted well over $400 million for a Delta IV-H. (So much for > cost savings versus Titan IV...) That was before or after the DIV-H was taken off the commercial market? > >http://www.spacex.com/falcon9_heavy.php also quotes a price for "TLI > >missions" - why do I get the feeling that Elon Musk want's to be the 13th [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > into orbit, and no song-and-dance about how *almost* working is cause > for celebration. True; but the systems are in place. Remember that Apollo 8 went to the Moon instead of being just another LEO test after Von Braun said "there's very little difference between Lunar orbit and Earth orbit". Once the systems have been checked out, there's very little difference. Falcon 1s first stage uses the same engine as the Falcon 9/F9H. "Mr Hughes, this will fly". >> NASA was quoted well over $400 million for a Delta IV-H. (So much for >> cost savings versus Titan IV...) > >That was before or after the DIV-H was taken off the commercial market? Delta IV-Heavy wasn't marketed commercially as far as I know. Boeing's marketing was of the Medium variants. The $400+ million is what NASA was quoted for purchasing launches of planetary missions. They went to Atlas V instead. Brian > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:07:14 GMT, "Alan Erskine" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Brian all the atlas and deltas had their beginings as ICBMs...... and designed for optimum operation as a missle, then were changed a bit for space launches. once one works, launch industry will be turned on its head........ > all the atlas and deltas had their beginings as ICBMs. Actually, Thor was an IRBM, not an ICBM.  SignatureDave Michelson davem@ece.ubc.ca >"Brian Thorn" <bthorn64@suddenlink.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >True; but the systems are in place. Brian specified 'no song-and-dance'. >Remember that Apollo 8 went to the Moon instead of being just another LEO test >after Von Braun said "there's very little difference between Lunar orbit and >Earth orbit". In that, Von Braun is quite wrong - the thermal environment is different, the radiation environment is different, the communications and operations enviroment, ditto... The difference may not have mattered much for Von Braun's boosters, but it make a heck of a lot of difference for the payload. >Once the systems have been checked out, there's very little difference. Falcon 1s >first stage uses the same engine as the Falcon 9/F9H. More 'song-and-dance'. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL > More 'song-and-dance'. I like the dance and the music is beautiful. >> More 'song-and-dance'. > > I like the dance and the music is beautiful. The Kool-Aid is also tasty, no? > >> More 'song-and-dance'. > > > > I like the dance and the music is beautiful. > > The Kool-Aid is also tasty, no? Ummm. Ok, you lost me on that one - I gather it's an American-specific reference? A certain (former) politician here in Australia would ask you to "Please explain". >> >> More 'song-and-dance'. >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to > "Please explain". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#.22Drinking_the_Kool-Aid.22 From above: Currently the term is mostly associated with the 1978 cult suicide in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones, the leader of the Peoples Temple, convinced his followers to move to Jonestown. Late in the year, he then ordered his flock to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Flavor Aid laced with potassium cyanide. In what is now commonly called the "Jonestown Massacre", a large majority of the 913 people later found dead drank the brew. (The discrepancy between the idiom and the actual occurrence is likely due to Flavor Aid's relative obscurity, compared to the easily recognizable Kool-Aid.) The precise expression can be attested in usage at least as early as 1987[1]. The saying "Don't drink the Kool-Aid" now commonly refers to the Jonestown tragedy, meaning "Don't trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side," or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly."[2] Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly is famous for using the term in this manner. [3] So, if someone says something like "The Kool-Aid is also tasty", they're saying that you're buying into what one of these "kooky" groups is saying. In other words, you're believing what they say without question or reason. Jeff SignatureA clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein >>>>> More 'song-and-dance'. >>>> I like the dance and the music is beautiful. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > saying that you're buying into what one of these "kooky" groups is saying. > In other words, you're believing what they say without question or reason. And to tie it back, someone who enjoys the "song and dance" is also likely to enjoy "drinking the Kool-Aid." >>Remember that Apollo 8 went to the Moon instead of being just another LEO test >>after Von Braun said "there's very little difference between Lunar orbit and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >mattered much for Von Braun's boosters, but it make a heck of a lot of >difference for the payload. I don't think von Braun actually said that anyway. He said something to the affect of "once you decide to put men on it [Saturn V], it doesn't matter where it goes." Brian >>>Remember that Apollo 8 went to the Moon instead of being just another LEO test >>>after Von Braun said "there's very little difference between Lunar orbit and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to the affect of "once you decide to put men on it [Saturn V], it >doesn't matter where it goes." Which is true - because the Saturn never really leaves LEO (as an operational enviroment). D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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