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Space Forum / Shuttle / December 2007ET LH2 sensor culprit is found
ET LH2 sensor culprit is found http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/NEWS02/712190330/1007 From above: A connector that passes electrical wires through the wall of Atlantis' external tank caused several sensor failures during a tanking test Tuesday. "We know exactly what we've got to work on now," shuttle program manager Wayne Hale said during a press briefing. Hale said the problem might not be fixed before the scheduled Jan. 10 launch date. Atlantis will launch "as soon as practical," he said. ... During the test, some 500,000 gallons of cryogenic fuel filled the external tank. The connector failed only when cooled to 423 degrees below zero. The connector, from a batch made ten years ago, has pins running through a plate in the external tank wall. Electric plugs are attached to both sides, carrying wires to the sensors and to the shuttle. "The sensors themselves are exonerated," Hale said. "We are still in the midst of troubleshooting. Part of this may be an installation problem." So there you go. Not sure how they're going to handle this one. Jeff  SignatureA clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein Hale said the problem might not be fixed before the > scheduled Jan. 10 launch date. Atlantis will launch > "as soon as practical," he said. yep put on that manager hat and fly, after all we have never needed those sensors in flight:( hey the foam loss is just a maintence issue:( The O ring erosion is no big deal:( On Dec 19, 10:02 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > Hale said the problem might not be fixed before the > > > scheduled Jan. 10 launch date. Atlantis will launch > > "as soon as practical," he said. Another post that shows your stupidity. He not saying it won't be fixed. He is saying that the fix might not be ready to allow for a launch on Jan 10. The launch will happen "as soon as practical" meaning the fix will be done before launch On Dec 19, 10:23�am, behlin...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Dec 19, 10:02 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > be ready to allow for a launch on Jan 10. �The launch will happen "as > soon as practical" meaning the fix will be done before launch lets hope your right. with the 2010 date i think its clear the iSS wouldnt be anywhere near finished. all it takes are troubles like this it appears the tank will have to be opened, how long did it take the last time when they were replacing sensors? that might be a ballpark for this On Dec 19, 8:50 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > lets hope your right. with the 2010 date i think its clear the iSS > wouldnt be anywhere near finished. Wrong again. It is not "clear" that it won't be finished. There are two "extra" flights that are not assembly flights. You are just prepositioning yourself so you can say "I told you so" without regard for knowing the real issues. You will point out every issue and say NASA is going to ignore it and still fly. You are just a broken record. > On Dec 19, 8:50 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > issue and say NASA is going to ignore it and still fly. You are just > a broken record. That's why many of us have killfiled Bob Haller. He's saying the same things year after year just waiting for something to go wrong so he can say "I told you so". Jeff SignatureA clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein > <behlin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > A clever person solves a problem. > A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. you can either fly safely, or meet the schedule. but its like better faster cheaper pick two. anyone have a schedule slip chart for RTF after coulmbia till today? certinally its not improving and all it will take is one major necessary standown to trash it completely. I would rather see them fly safely taking till 2014, than push the envelope and kill another crew. the 2010 date was just pulled out of a hat, as a goal and somehow became much more > you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. > > you can either fly safely, or meet the schedule. Um... are you under the impression that it's actually possible to fly to space "safely"? sh.t, none of us can even fly commercially to the next state 100% safely. Risk will always be in a large tradeoff equation against schedule and available budget. If you don't have the stomach for some risk in order to get something done on a reasonable timeline you've picked an unfortuante avocation here in following spaceflight. -- Todd H. http://toddh.net/ > "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> writes: > > you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sh.t, none of us can even fly commercially to the next state 100% > safely. well the shuttle death rate is worse than a airforce pilot in combat, commercial airliners are rock sloid safe by comparison. as i asked before anyone tracking the near constant schedule slips? 2010 is a pipe dream > "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> writes: > > you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sh.t, none of us can even fly commercially to the next state 100% > safely. >well the shuttle death rate is worse than a airforce pilot in combat, >commercial airliners are rock sloid safe by comparison. But is better than the first years of european exploration ships in the 15th century. And the europeans did not stopped the expeditions with the first ship sunked by a storm. And a lot of vessels sunk that years, the coast of Florida is full of european sunked ships. > <hall...@aol.com> escribi� en el mensajenews:d671f93a-fa14-4722-836d-8850b3522166@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > ship sunked by a storm. And a lot of vessels sunk that years, the coast of > Florida is full of european sunked ships. well lets hope safety has advanced a little bit in 300 years... plus we have been flying the shuttle a long time, and if it werent for schedule pressures 14 crew probably wouldnt be dead > 2010 is a pipe dream Wrong. There is pad in the schedule and the ability to remove flights On Dec 21, 8:20�am, behlin...@gmail.com wrote: > > 2010 is a pipe dream > > Wrong. �There is pad in the schedule and the ability to remove flights I would make a bet its not finished with all flights flown by the end date. all it takes is another stand down. lets say a new or old safety trouble will require a year to fix, old troubles tend to reoccur:( at this point stand down for a year? or scrap the program cause it cant be finished by 2010? just say we quit station never complete........ or extend the schedule? >> 2010 is a pipe dream > > Wrong. There is pad in the schedule and the ability to remove flights The padding can be destroyed by one or two flights being late. And consider that as you near the end, spare parts may become an issue and they'll have to spend more time fixing/debugging instead of replacing. Or they may have to "handcraft" parts because there are no spares left. Also consider constraints such as Progress/Soyuz schedules, and sun beta angle periods where no launches are possible/recommended. The biggest irony is that NASA may finally have a good handle on the shuttle maintenance by the time the last flight is done. > Or they may have to "handcraft" parts because there are no spares left. Incorrect, there are sufficient spares to last the programs >> you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. >> >> you can either fly safely, or meet the schedule. >Um... are you under the impression that it's actually possible to fly >to space "safely"? No. Mr Haller is under the impression that NASA is eager to fly the shuttle unsafely, and therefore watches very closely for any and all news of the shuttle being readied to fly, flying, landing, or being refurbished. With this information he may point out, again, how the Schedule Pressure and Thinking Like A Manager is being used to browbeat shuttle workers into making sure that whatever happens no reasonable care will be taken to minimize avoidable and unnecessary risks. Thus, stopping a launch because of a sensor malfunction shows how Launch Fever and Thinking Like A Manager has so infected shuttle workers that they can't even stop a launch because of a sensor malfunction. Taking time to track down the cause of the malfunction shows how Launch Fever and Thinking Like A Manager has kept shuttle workers from being able to take time to track down the cause of the malfunction. And repairing the malfunction ahead of launching shows how Launch Fever and Thinking Like A Manager will keep shuttle workers from being able to repair the malfunction ahead of launching. All this will result in the loss of another shuttle, unless they stop flying, so it is necessary to stop flying, but also to delay the planned retirement date so the shuttle can keep flying. SignatureJoseph Nebus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >"hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> writes: > >> you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � Joseph Nebus > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------�--- my point is at this time, schedule pressure may win out over safety. the astronaut office appears to have stopped this flight demanding all sensors were working properly during tanking. good move, with that bad connector we could of seen a in flight engine shutdown and possible ocean ditch, who knows the outcome of that. my fear is the fly till 2010 a intended safety move might cause the next accident. might be better to fly till 2011 safely than push 2010 and kill a crew >> you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > order to get something done on a reasonable timeline you've picked an > unfortuante avocation here in following spaceflight. Bob's been told this many times. He's been spewing the same stuff for years. I've personally killfiled him. Jeff SignatureA clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein <hallerb@aol.com> writes: >> you can killfile me if you want but that doesnt change whats going on. >> >> you can either fly safely, or meet the schedule. > Todd H. > http://toddh.net/ wtites: > Um... are you under the impression that it's actually possible to fly > to space "safely"? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Todd H. > http://toddh.net/ Well said Todd Mark > > <behlin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > the 2010 date was just pulled out of a hat, as a goal and somehow > became much more Where you are getting this BS? Nothing is "going on". A problem has been found and they are delaying the launch to fix it. So what if there is a major standdown, the schedule will be adjusted (extended). Like I said, 2 flights can be eliminated from the end of the manifest. The station is complete before those two flights. Hmm, well, if this is the cause, it might be aging as I thought in my last message with corrosion being enough to stop the very low currents necessary in a volatile situation. I've already said what I'd try, trouble is, can you get to the other side? Brian SignatureBrian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff' in the display name may be lost. Blind user, so no pictures please! > ET LH2 sensor culprit is found > http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/NEWS02/712190330/1007 [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Jeff >ET LH2 sensor culprit is found >http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/NEWS02/712190330/1007 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wall. Electric plugs are attached to both sides, > carrying wires to the sensors and to the shuttle. Connector problems are a stone cold bitch to troubleshoot in normal circumstances - add in old connectors, extreme environments, and great difficulty in access.... Let's just say each additional factor cubes the difficulty. Ok, that's exaggerating - but only a little bit. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL > >ET LH2 sensor culprit is found > >http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/NEWS0... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. > Oct 5th, 2004 JDL A number of the actually respected folks have suggested aging as an issue, and I am a little unclear on this. Although the design may be old, aren't each of the sets of sensors new, since the ET is a single- use item? If the devices are no longer being made (a good possibility), could aging while being stored on the shelf before installation into an ET be part of the problem? Take care . . . John >A number of the actually respected folks have suggested aging as an >issue, and I am a little unclear on this. Although the design may be >old, aren't each of the sets of sensors new, since the ET is a single- >use item? If the devices are no longer being made (a good >possibility), could aging while being stored on the shelf before >installation into an ET be part of the problem? Yes, these items were manufactured some time ago (ten years IIRC), and items can age on the shelf. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL > > >ET LH2 sensor culprit is found > > >http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/NEWS0... [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - parts age even sitting on a shelf and many shuttle parts are past their rated life expectancy and are no longer made, even the manufacturers are out of business. nasa has canibalized museum displays and the enterprise for parts. nasa buys ground support equiptement from e bay. imagine that. as for shuttle maintence anyone with a old car knows things are more likely to fail , and the shuttles trouble is it requires too much service. bet the engineers designing it would of never dreamed it would still be flying this long........... On Dec 19, 6:26 am, "Jeff Findley" <jeff.find...@ugs.nojunk.com> wrote: > During the test, some 500,000 gallons of cryogenic > fuel filled the external tank. The connector failed > only when cooled to 423 degrees below zero. The other day (the 17th or 18th or both), on <http://www.nasa.gov/ mission_pages/shuttle/main/> there was a picture of setting up test equipment, and I meant to click to the hi-res today, but I hit refresh instead, so now all I can get is the guys pointing to the foam on the ET. Trying to use the directory for *that* hi-res gets me an error page. Google Images either hasn't picked it up yet or has some reason for hiding it way down the list. Anyone have the link handy? Oh, never mind, just rechecked the KSC gallery, and found it at <http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/detail.cfm? mediaid=34664> There's a bunch in the same series, too, giving multiple angle views. Tnx anyway, enjoy your Winter Revels! /dps > The connector, from a batch made ten years ago, has > pins running through a plate in the external tank > wall. Electric plugs are attached to both sides, > carrying wires to the sensors and to the shuttle. Sometimes when faced with flaky connectors on something that is to see a single use, I'd just get out the soldering iron and solder the sensor wires to the pins directly, and forget about the plugs. Of course I haven't dealt with cryogenic liquids and I don't know if the pins are solderable metal, but the point is to avoid the connector contact points. And it's probably not easy to get inside the tanks right now... ===================================================================== What did Santa Claus say at the house of ill repute? "Ho ho ho!" > Sometimes when faced with flaky connectors on something that is to see a > single use, I'd just get out the soldering iron and solder the sensor > wires to the pins directly, and forget about the plugs. Of course I > haven't dealt with cryogenic liquids and I don't know if the pins are > solderable metal, but the point is to avoid the connector contact > points. And it's probably not easy to get inside the tanks right now... How about filling each female connector with some sort of conducting paste so that when the male pin is inserted, any gap is filled with that conducting paste and thus there would be no air to freeze in there. (Perhaps the paste could be mercury which would probably solidify once that cold but still form a good bridge between the male pin and the female cyclinder. > > Sometimes when faced with flaky connectors on something that is to see a > > single use, I'd just get out the soldering iron and solder the sensor [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that cold but still form a good bridge between the male pin and the > female cyclinder. lets hope the lessons of the past have been noticed so whatever system finally replaces shuttle has a minimum of these pesky problems. I seriously doubt the current replacement will ever fly, new president and congress will call for a re design. its too costly, too large a capsule and rather than being a affordable replacement its a pork piggie payoff. with funding as is we just cant afford a bloated piggie squealing on the pad >How about filling each female connector with some sort of conducting >paste so that when the male pin is inserted, any gap is filled with that >conducting paste and thus there would be no air to freeze in there. That works the first time you mate the connector - but becomes a real problem once you try and remate. >(Perhaps the paste could be mercury which would probably solidify once >that cold but still form a good bridge between the male pin and the >female cyclinder. Oh yeah - a portable toxic waste dump is _exactly_ what you need to add when you want to limit your costs. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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