President Ron Paul might let the Space Shuttle flying beyond 2010. :-)
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Craig Fink - 16 Sep 2007 00:24 GMT Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program.
Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on E-Bay would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter.
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Damon Hill - 16 Sep 2007 04:27 GMT > Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle > Program. > > Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on > E-Bay would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. They were probably never installed on Enterprise, since it only flew drop tests.
--Damon
mdicenso@seds.lpl.arizona.edu - 18 Sep 2007 23:40 GMT > > Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle > > Program. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They were probably never installed on Enterprise, since it only > flew drop tests. Enteprise was indeed never equipped with the IPS plumbing that later orbiters were since it was to fly the ALT flights first, and it was not required hardware. However the capacity to install them was retained.
Had things gone as originally planned following the vibration testing at Marshall Spaceflight Center in 1978-79, Enterprise would have been returned to Palmdale Plant No. 42 in California to be retrofitted fully, and would have seen her first flight in 1982.
The expense of dismantling Enterprise, along with upgrading the airframe to meet the new fleet standards was deemed too expensive, and so NASA chose instead to retrofit the STA-099 test article into OV-099 Challenger. -Mike
Derek Lyons - 19 Sep 2007 10:04 GMT >> > Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle >> > Program. >> >> > Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on >> > E-Bay would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. Using magic technology to connect the lines in the Orbiter to the tanks?
>> They were probably never installed on Enterprise, since it only >> flew drop tests. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >not required hardware. However the capacity to install them was >retained. Enterprise was never fitted with many things a flight Orbiter comes standard with - and is also fitted with many things a flight Orbiter doesn't have.
D.
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hallerb@aol.com - 20 Sep 2007 03:12 GMT Its sad a flying enterprise would of been a wonderful boost for NASA, who tossed out a great PR bonanza.
In dreamland enterprise could be refitted for cargo service only. But no money.
Program will end after next accident
Craig Fink - 21 Sep 2007 12:54 GMT There are a lot of things that were never installed on Enterprise. To me that means that there would be a lot of things that don't have to be removed for it to evolve into Orbiter version 1.2
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>> Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle >> Program. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They were probably never installed on Enterprise, since it only > flew drop tests. Brian Gaff - 16 Sep 2007 08:31 GMT Erm, but they have to come out some place and they are rather big and weighty and um cold...
Brian
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> Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program. > > Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on > E-Bay > would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. Craig Fink - 21 Sep 2007 12:54 GMT True, they would have to come out of the Orbiter somewhere. Weight isn't much of an issue, volume might be. Example, the long LOX line is already taken to Orbit. It's just thrown away with the External Tank. Moving it into the Orbiter would allow Version 1.2 Enterprise to keep and use all the excess LOX if the line is in the Orbiter. Connecting to the Tank as close to the nose as possible. The LOX line has just become a large tank after ET separation.
The next question might be, what would I do with all the extra LOX. Well the obvious, get rid of the much more "dangerous" OMS and RCS propellent. Both the LOX line and LH2 line can be thought of as tanks after ET separation, they are now dual use. Replacing the OMS engines and RCS jets with Oxygen/Hydrogen burning engines would simplify operations and increase performance. The Ideal OMS engines would be one that burns both liquids and gaseous propellants. Dual mode RCS jets might also be nice too. Ideally, the engines would have highly variable mixture ratios, so that any excess LOX or excess LH2, can be fed through the engines as propellant. LOX would lower the ISP/increase thrust of these engine, but LH2 would increase the ISP/decrease thrust. At MECO, the ratio of LOX and LH2 is dependant on what happened during ascent, but the excess of LOX or LH2 is still useful mass as propellant. Dual mode, High thrust liquid/Low thrust gaseous, variable mixture ratio. Or, would that be call Tri mode?
The length or volume of the LH2 line is another issue that I think would fit nicely into an evolution of the Shuttle system into a much more useful/cheaper vehicle that Private Enterprise would find profitable.
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> Erm, but they have to come out some place and they are rather big and > weighty and um cold... John Doe - 21 Sep 2007 17:59 GMT > Example, the long LOX line is already > taken to Orbit. It's just thrown away with the External Tank. Moving it > into the Orbiter would allow Version 1.2 Enterprise to keep and use all the > excess LOX if the line is in the Orbiter. Note quite. The ET is not yet in a stable orbit. After the shuttle has ditched the ET, it uses its OMS engines to complete acceleration to a proper orbit (including circularising the orbit).
Moving anything from ET to shuttle would mean that extra fuel is needed to haul that mass between the time ET is shed to final orbit (as well as extra fuel to decelerate shuttle for de-orbit)
The smart thing would have been to put all external protuberances inside the ET tank (even if the ET ends up having a smooth bulge in its shape.).
Or, prior to spraying on the foam, add an aerodynamic carbon fibre fairing over the lines attached to the ET wall. And then spray foam over the ET, including the carbon fairing. (and you could also spray foam inside the fairing to add greater insulation as well as mechanical support of the fairing.).
Another possibility would have been to run the lines on the other side of the ET and *somehow* make then cut across at the point when they need to connect to the shuttle.
Skylon - 16 Sep 2007 20:52 GMT > Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Craig Fink > Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @ WeBeG...@GMail.Com You realize in order to purchase something on Ebay it must first be up for auction on Ebay?
And last I checked, the Smithsonian didn't seem to be in any rush to sell Enterprise.
-A.L.
Craig Fink - 21 Sep 2007 15:11 GMT It is only being stored at the Smithsonian, they would probably want one of the Orbiters that actually flew in space when they are retired in 2010, or possibly 202? if Ron Paul is elected President.
Ron Paul even wants to privatize the Post Office, he truely believes, as I do, that the market place is where efficiency and innovation takes place. A free market as opposed to a highly regulated one. Regulated markets when combined with lobbying yields high profits for those who buy the regulations, in favor of inefficiency, delay or suppressed innovation, limited competition, and of course higher cost to the consumer.
Yes, regulation is supposed to be for "safety" of the consumer, but this isn't what is happening here in the USA. Ron Paul is correct, "safety" issues for consumers would be better and more efficient in the private sector. Look at what the FDA has done to our medical care, dying people cannot take advantage of experimental medical care (if they choose to) that might (or might not) save their lives (or die early). US manufactured drugs cannot be re-imported to the United States, even though these "regulated" companies are willing to sell their product at a much lower price in Canada, for example. The FDA is responsible for much of the high cost of medical care in the US, adding more regulation or government control isn't the solution, it's the problem.
Hillary talks about change, but in reality, not nearly as much change as Ron Paul is talking about. If you really what a change in our government, Ron Paul is the logical choice. Hillary is a war monger compared to Ron Paul. Hillary is an extreme Socialist compared to Ron Paul. Hillary is an extreme flip/flopper compared to Ron Paul.
When elected, President Ron Paul, would want to privatize the Post Office, FDA, ... and likely, most, if not all of NASA. He understands it took US the better part of a century to get to the mess we are in, starting with the Sixteenth Amendment, which he wants to repeal. He understands that a transition doesn't happen overnight.
Transitioning NASA from a Communist economic model to a Capitalist economic model would be good for America, good for innovation, and bring space flight costs down. It would start a much bigger Space revolution than the Internet revolution is. The Internet revolution occurred as fast as it did, not because of regulation, but because it is a "free" market. That is why Ron Paul votes against Internet regulation even if it is called "net neutrality".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c76yeqQY2ms
Join the rEVOLution, http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
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>> Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > And last I checked, the Smithsonian didn't seem to be in any rush to > sell Enterprise. Derek Lyons - 17 Sep 2007 18:55 GMT >Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on E-Bay >would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. And when (are where) will you get the billions to finish Enterprise (it's virtually a mockup and always has been), and build out all the required infrastructure?
D.
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Joseph Nebus - 18 Sep 2007 13:57 GMT >>Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on E-Bay >>would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter.
>And when (are where) will you get the billions to finish Enterprise >(it's virtually a mockup and always has been), and build out all the >required infrastructure? Why, Private Enterprise, of course. He just *said*. There'll be profits flowing like tap water and free lollipops at the price the market will bear for all the good little libertarian spammers too.
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Craig Fink - 11 Oct 2007 13:22 GMT >>>Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on >>>E-Bay would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be profits flowing like tap water and free lollipops at the price the > market will bear for all the good little libertarian spammers too. I think your talking about all the other candidates who like to hand out free stuff.
Ron Paul is all about Freedom, Liberty, the Constitution. Returning to the Rule of Law, instead of the Rule of Man. He may want to eliminate all the un-constitutional Federal agencies and programs. But, he also understand it's taken fifty+ years to get to where we are. That yanking the rug out isn't good for the country. Transitioning NASA from a Communist Economic model to a Capitalist or "Free Market" Economy could actually be good for manned space flight.
How would that be done? Well, Russia seems to be gaining momentum in manned space flight. They privatized their space program, they accept paying customers to ride on their vehicle, prices are actually going up. How do we transition? Russia is poised to be a true powerhouse in space by the time our Communist leaning space program get back to the Moon.
Cracks are beginning to appear in the Main Stream Media's wall of silence about Ron Paul are beginning to appear... http://youtube.com/watch?v=I8PwoV4_Ds0 Carlson Tucker was actually allowed to give a rather good report on Ron Paul, without all the media buzz words, dark horse, cannot win, zero chance, Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Howard Dean, ...
Ron Paul Who? If you really want a nation that follows the Constitution, want your own Representative or Senator to actually read the Constitution and understand it. To make changes to it by Amending it, instead of amending the dictionary, now is your opportunity. Vote now, skip lunch, it'll be good for your health. Vote with your lunch money, it'll be good for the nation. Join the Ron Paul rEVOLution, and feel good about your choices in the next election.
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Privatize the Space Station! :-)
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lab~rat >:-) - 11 Oct 2007 16:07 GMT >How would that be done? Well, Russia seems to be gaining momentum in manned >space flight. They privatized their space program, they accept paying >customers to ride on their vehicle, prices are actually going up. This is great, but the US would have to seriously revamp its litigation crazy mentality before we'd start doing this. Imagine a disaster with a private citizen aboard. Not only would his loved ones sue, but also everyone standing in line to go and those that already went.
I'm thinking Russia doesn't put up with that crap...
-- lab~rat >:-) Stupid humans...
André, PE1PQX - 11 Oct 2007 18:42 GMT lab~rat >:-) gebruikte zijn klavier om te schrijven :
>> How would that be done? Well, Russia seems to be gaining momentum in manned >> space flight. They privatized their space program, they accept paying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm thinking Russia doesn't put up with that crap... I thinkt the russians have somthing in their commercial aggreement a line: "In case of a disater and/or death, we cannot be held responsible" .
André
lab~rat >:-) - 11 Oct 2007 19:12 GMT >lab~rat >:-) gebruikte zijn klavier om te schrijven : >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >line: "In case of a disater and/or death, we cannot be held >responsible" . For the record, that has never stopped anyone from trying to sue in the past. I'm sure that the agreement for space travel has that language, but for some reason folks over here seem to think that kind of legalese is unenforceable. And it's probably because people get paid when they sue...
-- lab~rat >:-) Stupid humans...
André, PE1PQX - 11 Oct 2007 19:29 GMT lab~rat >:-) had uiteengezet :
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:42:22 +0200, AndrŽ, PE1PQX > <pe1pqx_geenviagra@planet.nl> puked: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of legalese is unenforceable. And it's probably because people get > paid when they sue... Conclusion: it's the money....
Derek Lyons - 11 Oct 2007 22:25 GMT >For the record, that has never stopped anyone from trying to sue in >the past. I'm sure that the agreement for space travel has that >language, but for some reason folks over here seem to think that kind >of legalese is unenforceable. And it's probably because people get >paid when they sue... Actually it's because black letter law as well as case law strictly limit the conditions under which, and the extent to which, one can sign one's rights away. Additionally, there is the legal principle (in the Anglo Saxon legal systems) that one is strictly limited to the amount one can bind ones heirs by a current contract.
It's not because 'people get paid', it is also part and parcel of the legal principles that prevent debt bondage as well as natural collary of the principle of "sins of the father are not those of the son".
D.
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Matt - 11 Oct 2007 20:29 GMT Ron Paul has about as much chance of being elected President as Jerry Brown - and Jerry's not even a legal resident of the planet Earth.
Seriously, I prefer to spend time on candidates who are not asterisks in the polls. Paul is running to get a platform for his message, and good for him.
The only serious candidate who's even put out a space policy so far is Senator Clinton, and she was careful to promise something for everyone and not talk budget numbers.
Craig Fink - 12 Oct 2007 11:57 GMT Not quite true, Representative Ron Paul has a space policy statement too. It's twenty years old and Ron Paul had only served in Congress for 10 years. The relevant part of the 1988 statement being "... and the rest of NASA should be sold to private operators." This is when he was the Libertarian candidate for President.
So, if his views haven't changed too much in 20 years as a Republican, the Space Shuttle could very well fly beyond 2010. And the Space Station beyond 2015, most likely with a Space Hotel attached.
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http://www.islandone.org/Politics/LP.space-dom.html SPACE - DOMESTIC POLICY Ron Paul Presidential Campaign Position Paper (1988)
Time after time NASA has developed capabilities at great expense then discarded them: a space station larger than the Soviet MIR, a heavy lift vehicle competitive with the new Soviet Energia, a nuclear engine twice as efficient as the space shuttle main engine and a well tested Earth-Moon transport.
The fate of the Saturn V heavy lift launch vehicle is one of the saddest examples of this folly. Production was intentionally halted and portions of its tooling were "lost". This bridge burning ensured support for the next aerospace welfare program: the space shuttle. Now we have a grounded government shuttle that can lift a third as much as the Saturn V for the same cost per pound. That's progress, government style.
Even worse, this failed state monopoly is now wrecking businesses to avoid well deserved embarrassment. American companies desperately need to get their satellites into space. They have been blocked from using the cheapest, most reliable launcher in the world which unfortunately happens to be the Soviet Proton.
NASA has cost our nation a full twenty years in space development, twenty years that has seen the Soviet Union surpass us to an extent that may well be irreparable. It is inconceivable that a private firm could have committed such follies and survived. NASA deserves no better.
Our only hope now lies in the power of free individuals risking their own resources for their own dreams. We must recognize the government led space program is dead and the corpse must be buried as soon as possible. Any defense functions should be put under the military, and the rest of NASA should be sold to private operators. The receipts would be applied to the national debt. Then, all government roadblocks to commercial development of space must be removed.
It is not the business of the defense department of a free society to veto business decisions of remote sensing or launch companies. The interests of liberty would be well served by a bevy of mediasats that will put any future Iran-Contra affair under the full glare of live television coverage. Maybe, besides competition, that's what our government is afraid of.
There is really only one proper role for the military in space or on Earth: the protection of America. Otherwise, the new frontier of Space should be opened to all. Space pioneers will generate knowledge and wealth that will improve the lot of all people on earth. We should not let government get in their way.
> Ron Paul has about as much chance of being elected President as Jerry > Brown - and Jerry's not even a legal resident of the planet Earth. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Senator Clinton, and she was careful to promise something for everyone > and not talk budget numbers. I don't know what Hillary's space policy is, do you have a link. She sure has been giving away a lot of stuff lately, stuff that doesn't belong to her. If she were Bill Gates, yeah sure, go ahead and give every child born in the US $5000.00. She's not Bill Gates, so she must be a modern day Robin Hood, except she wants to work for the Government, to be Queen Hillary. I guess that would make her equivalent to "John of England", not Robin Hood... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_England ...King John's reign has been traditionally characterised as one of the most disastrous in English history...
She most definitely believes in the Nanny State, that the Government should take care of you from cradle to grave. That's not what freedom and liberty is all about.
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 12 Oct 2007 15:51 GMT In the 20th century money became more important than people. In the 21st century money will become more important than the laws that are passed by elected officials, who owe money for their campaigns to major corporations. Thus big money will put itself in a position of total authority.
The trade agreements that are signed between nations have small print that replace the laws of nations with decisions by international councils in the interest of trade. This is a continuing process and puts major corporations into a position where they don't have to follow the laws of any country or pay money from lawsuits to individuals even when lawsuits are brought prosecuted and won. Transfer pricing and transferring products from one nation to another through tax-havens, allow major corporations to avoid taxes.
This has been used mostly by US firms against supplier nations, but the process is ongoing and will ultimately put all major global firms in absolute control of world affairs.
On September 11, 1973 the democratically elected President of Chile was killed by people hired by the CIA because he promised to raise the salaries of copper miners to a level equal to half that of the US copper miners. A right wing puppet government was installed by the United States after the killing. The torture and murder of so many Chilean people that followed was shameful to the world. But most Americans who never saw the story accurately reported in the US on our television networks, controlled by the corporations who instituted the killing in the first place, are unaware of this and US culpability.
Over the past 20 years, following our military's failure in Vietnam, which was largely blamed on the media by military planners, there has been a concerted effort to change the nature of news reporting in America to bring it under tighter control of the corporations beyond that in 1973. And this effort has succeeded in undermining any critical analysis and often any critical knowledge of what is going on in the world, totally making the stage managed elections an exercise in public entertainment - with the outcome known well in advance, sort of like wrestlemania.
The experts are in charge, and they listen primarily to the experts within corporations. The idea that ordinary untutored citizens could contribute meaningfully to this process is laughable in their view. The only protection offered the average citizen is that afforded by 'tradition' - tradition that is redefined and eroded with each passing generation.
In this environment there is always introduced new scientific and technical information and capabilities.
Rockets are a simpler version of jet engines. But because rockets can orbit the Earth, they can be used to project weapons from any point on the Earth to any other in a matter of minutes. So, rockets, naturally are important strategic weapons. So, missile proliferation is a legitimate government issue. Prohibting and controlling that proliferation of rocket technology is one of the things the US government is committed to. Another is prohibiting and controlling the proliferation of nuclear technology. This means that rockets and especially nuclear rockets are infeasible for anyone to develop. Anyone, anywhere become targets. Because an effective rocket of this type destroys US nuclear and military hegemony.
Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara decided in December 1963 to end serious nuclear rocket programs, also to end the cooperation between the nuclear weapons labs and civilian space labs, and to end serious development of any launchers larger than that and more capable than that needed to get to the moon, and once the moon landing was assured, funding for NASA was dramatically cut.
This was all done for very important national security reasons. To control missile proliferation, and also for political reasons. In the 1960s there was an air of unlimited potential and possibility for the world. Kennedy's vision of the US being first among equals, of converting the cold war to a space race - the same way that Europe avoided wars for centuries by competing on the oceans and in foreign lands - we could compete against one another in the development of the solar system. And the US would curtail intelligence operations and replace them with operations like the Peace Corps to build trust and understanding, and address the issues of disparity of income around the world. This stood in stark contrast to the then secret commitment by the US to maintain and exacerbate disparities of income for the sole purpose of maintaining military and economic dominance.
So, Kennedy was killed by a lone assassin in Dallas in November 1963, and his plans for space and a peaceful coexistence on Earth were undone by December 1963 by LBJ and McNamara.
In today's environment, where the elected President of the US in 2000 receives a Nobel Prize for his work to help the world against corporate excesses, while the son of a former CIA director usurps power from the true winner and leads the country from one disaster to another - it is not an environment where anyone who does not follow the corporate party line will have true power in the world.
Matt - 12 Oct 2007 05:25 GMT I like Paul - he says what he thinks, and he uses the campaign to draw attention to his message. Democracy in action. But I'll spend any time and money concerning the election on a candidate who has a ghost of a chance to win. Paul has as much chance of being President as Jerry Brown (who should be disqualified on the grounds he's not a legal resident of the Earth). The only candidate to say anything about space is Senator Clinton, who said little of substance, but at least she said something. Hopefully others will follow that lead.
David Smith - 18 Sep 2007 05:48 GMT It was 15 Sep 2007, when Craig Fink commented:
> Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program. > > Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on E-Bay > would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. The first thing a privatized space program would do would be to decide there's no immediate profit in it, break it up into smaller pieces, and sell it to other folks who would shortly go out of business.
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Craig Fink - 24 Oct 2007 12:27 GMT > It was 15 Sep 2007, when Craig Fink commented: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > there's no immediate profit in it, break it up into smaller pieces, and > sell it to other folks who would shortly go out of business. Unless they had a generous customer (like NASA) to tide them over until they could make the modification necessary to make the Shuttle operate in an efficient (cost) and reusable manner. NASA has spent billions on the Shuttle to get that extra pound of performance, and very little on get reducing costs. The original concept of what the shuttle was to be, isn't a bad one. It's implementation by NASA was.
A two stage winged reusable vehicle that is able to achieve a once or twice a day (or week) flight rate, would be competitive. Look at the SSMEs, sure they made some improvements, safety wise maybe, but they haven't done the things necessary to make them totally reusable. Doing that would have added weight to the SSMEs, to give them a reasonable flight rate between refurbishment. Removing, refurbishing, and re-installing many things because the objective was payload performance not re-usability or cost. The SSMEs are so bleeding edge, they are bleeding all the way to Orbit, tearing themselves apart.
The first thing would be to fix first stage with liquid flyback booster, using a fully reusable engine. Something like the Russian kerosene/lox engine.
Then a reusable Orbiter, one that incorporates an internal fuel tank and addresses all the other problem areas. NASA has had lots of proposals in the past for all kind of changes to move towards a truely reusable vehicle. None implemented and all changes to squeeze extra pound of payload into the bay. Get rid of the hydrazine, hydraulic fluid, old computer... This gets rid of an army of maintenance. Get rid of the army at the MCC. Get rid of the army of software maintenance. All the cost of the Shuttle really has to do with the army of people. These operating procedures and concepts developed by NASA are pretty much useless for any commercial company.
Looking at where NASA is headed, Apollo II, is going to have the same army working on it. Nothing really reusable, same MCC crew, same maintenance crew, same modifications crew. Even the capsule called reusable but requiring an army to refurbish it. An airline could never operate like this.
Private Enterprise would have worked on cost reduction for the past 30 years of the Shuttle Program, not maintaining a maintenance, operations, and modifications army of people. The difference between Private Enterprise and a relic of the Cold War called NASA. Our very own Communist Space Program, needs to be Privatized.
Vote for Ron Paul in 2008, and we will have Private Enterprise flying in Space, sooner than later.
On the so called scientific Media polls? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9EWDB_zK4 Thank you Luntz, or is it F U Frank!
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Leopold Stotch - 19 Sep 2007 01:34 GMT > Hopefully, President Ron Paul would privatize the Space Shuttle Program. > > Private Enterprise, first thing I'd do after purchasing Enterprise on E-Bay > would be to move the LOX, LH2 lines inside the Orbiter. Ru Paul is more likely to be President than Ron Paul.
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