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RTLS Story

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Danny Deger - 13 May 2007 02:45 GMT
Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.

His name is Curt Brown.  He is one of the most arrogant and difficult to get
along astronauts in the program.  Unfortunately, I didn't know this during
my first training session with him as a student.  The training team planed
for a Return To Launch Site, RTLS, abort by killing an engine shortly after
lift off.  As expected, there would not be enough power left in the
remaining two engines to make it to an abort orbit, or even to get across
the Atlantic and land in Europe or Africa.

I have decided to attempt to train a Flight Rule I had recently read.  That
is if control is shortly after the main engines are turned off on an RTLS
abort, the crew will command a fast separation.  I was new to the field of
training astronauts, so I thought they would know to do this task.  I could
not have been more wrong.

The rule was written because on an RTLS abort, the shuttle is in significant
atmosphere at the time the engines are turned off.  It turns out the shuttle
with the tank on is unstable, but in trim if the attitude is kept close to
the desired zero sideslip angle and -4 degrees angle of attack.  The only
devices maintaining control are the small Reaction Control System, RCS,
jets.  If the shuttle moves very far from its trim attitude, the air loads
will overwhelm the control available and the stack will tumble.  If this
process starts, the best avenue is to get of the external tank ASAP.  After
separation, the orbiter by itself is stable and the flight control surfaces
become active.

The problem I had was to do something to cause the combined orbiter and tank
to go out of control right after main engine cut off.  I used some time in
the simulator by myself to come up with a way to do this.  I came up with
the amount of force to apply, the direction to apply it, and the duration to
apply it.  It worked in the simulator by myself.  If I applied the force as
soon as the engines turned off, the stack would go out of control, but after
the separation, the shuttle would regain control.

I briefed this to my team lead and got permission to try it in the training
session.  I kill the engine shortly after lift off and the crew goes RTLS at
the correct time.  The powered flight portion of the RTLS is flown without
incident.  As soon as the main engines are turned off, I put the force in.
It did not work as planned.  Control was lost as I expected, but rather that
perform the fast separation as called in the flight rules, the crew engaged
the Backup Flight System, BFS.  To make matters worse, there is known bug in
the BFS that if it is engaged in this time frame, it gets lost on what mode
it is in and it will not separate from the tank.  Needless to say, entering
the atmosphere while still on the tank is a disaster.  The rest of the
training simulation was a disaster.  The shuttle tumbled and tumbled.  We
finally declared the crew dead and stopped the simulation.

Curt Brown was furious.  In the debrief I showed him the flight rule that
says the crew should perform a fast separation in that phase if control is
lost.  Curt had never heard of this.   I thought it strange that a flown
crew member would never have been trained on such an important rule.  The
next day I asked Andy Foster, the lead instructor on ascent abort, about
this rule.  Andy informed me this was a bad rule and it should not be
trained.  I was stunned.  How can we have an official policy to not train a
flight rule?  The flight rules are the bible of operating the shuttle - for
both the crew and the flight controllers.  I also argued that BFS should
certainly not be an option in this phase if it is known to be catastrophic
to engage.

My complaints fell on deaf ears.  Everyone more senior than me was
comfortable having a rule on the books that "everyone" knows we should not
follow.  Everyone was also comfortable not training the crew engaging the
backup flight system in this phase - even though it is know to cause certain
loss of orbiter and crew if they do engage.
Derek Lyons - 13 May 2007 07:00 GMT
>Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.

*yawn*

More 'poor pitiful mistreated me' hogwash from Danny.

D.
Signature

Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

David G. - 13 May 2007 19:08 GMT
>>Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.
>
> *yawn*
>
> More 'poor pitiful mistreated me' hogwash from Danny.

I didn't read any mistreated me in the story.  I liked it and learned a lot
about RTLS from it.
Justa Lurker - 13 May 2007 19:32 GMT
>> Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> D.

That's not how I read it.

He raised some important issues.

I enjoyed reading his account of what happened.

Seems to me to be more a case of sour grapes on your part because you
don't like having the newsgroup spotlight directed away from your OT
submarine stories to something space-shuttle-related.
Derek Lyons - 15 May 2007 19:05 GMT
>>> Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>He raised some important issues.

Assuming he's telling the truth - an assumption I do not make.

>I enjoyed reading his account of what happened.

Assuming it's an account - and not fictional.

>Seems to me to be more a case of sour grapes on your part because you
>don't like having the newsgroup spotlight directed away from your OT
>submarine stories to something space-shuttle-related.

No, it's a case of being tired of Danny's stories of how poorly he was
treated was by NASA, how he is utterly without sin or error, and all
his problems are the fault of a complex conspiracy by NASA managment.

D.
Signature

Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Herb Schaltegger - 15 May 2007 19:27 GMT
> No, it's a case of being tired of Danny's stories of how poorly he was
> treated was by NASA, how he is utterly without sin or error, and all
> his problems are the fault of a complex conspiracy by NASA managment.
>
> D.

To be fair, D., I don't think that's what he's ever said  - only that the
internal NASA culture is much like any other and that it tends to gang up on
those considered difficult or trouble-makers.  All of which is quite probably
true.

Now, be that as it may, I would very much like to hear Jorge's take on this.

Signature

Fear is the path to the dark side...
Fear leads to anger...
Anger leads to hate...
Hate leads to banjos...
Banjos lead to suffering!

Danny Deger - 15 May 2007 20:11 GMT
>> No, it's a case of being tired of Danny's stories of how poorly he was
>> treated was by NASA, how he is utterly without sin or error, and all
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> probably
> true.

And yes I was a trouble maker for NASA management.  NASA management didn't
like statements like "Do you know what a room full of NASA managers is? --  
It is a bunch of people in a room lying to each other"  This is only a
example of statements I routinely made on how poorly I thought NASA was run
at the time.

I do think there is hope though.  The current adminstrator is a straight
shooter as is the JCS director and his staff.  I am still in contact with a
high level JSC manager and I have been told NASA is looking long and hard at
its actions that might have caused emotional and mental stress in the recent
shooting.  It is my opinion that past JSC directors would have made every
effort to hide any actions that might have agrevated the shooter.  Another
good sign is NASA allowed decenting opinion on the shuttle return to flight
to be published.  Not too long ago the decenting opinion was strongly
quashed.

Danny Deger
Danny Deger - 15 May 2007 19:52 GMT
snip

> No, it's a case of being tired of Danny's stories of how poorly he was
> treated was by NASA, how he is utterly without sin or error, and all
> his problems are the fault of a complex conspiracy by NASA managment.

In my story I was not mistreated and didn't say I was mistreated.  I simply
was surprised that NASA was OK with a flight rule that "everyone" knew we
didn't train to.  Up to that point, I was told the flight rules were sacred.

There was no complex conspiracy by NASA management, and I never said there
was.  Please do not put words in my mouth.  My problem at NASA was a simple
case of work place bullying.  Anyone at NASA can tell you about NASA
managers throwing coke cans, throwing trash cans, screaming out of control
using the "f" word, etc.  Bullies do not need a conspiracy to operate in.
They just need an environment that tolerates their actions, and NASA
provides this environment for them.  It is my belief that work place
bullying is the culture problem discussed in NASA's two accident
investigation.  It other words, as NASA engineers fear being bullied in the
future, they sit quietly when they have a safety concern that is not
supported by NASA management.  Read the two accident reports and it is clear
there is something going on at NASA that is not healthy.

On doubting my truthfulness and accuracy here is a copy of the rule I was
attempting to train:  I got it from
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr
_2002/janqtr/pdf/14cfr91.126.pdf


Now, are you going to claim I hacked into a data base and inserted this rule
that I made up so I could write a story about it?  Maybe you think I am part
of a conspiracy to attack NASA.

A8-13 RTLS ET SEPARATION

FOR RTLS ET SEPARATION, CREW ACTION SHALL BE AS FOLLOWS:

A. DURING MATED COAST, COMMAND A FAST SEPARATION IF ALPHA
? -4 ± 2 DEGREES AND DIVERGING OR BETA ? 0 ± 2 DEGREES
AND DIVERGING.

During RTLS mated coast, MM 601, G/C steer is commanding attitude hold in
all axes in either CSS
(while the RHC is in detent) or auto flight control mode. Due to the time
limitations of performing RTLS
ET separation, a fast separation should be commanded anytime the vehicle
attitude is diverging from the
RTLS ET separation structural release constraints. All of the RTLS ET
separation design staging
conditions are documented in JSC-07700, volume X, figure 3.2.1.1.10.4.

Danny Deger
Danny Deger - 15 May 2007 19:58 GMT
snip

> On doubting my truthfulness and accuracy here is a copy of the rule I was
> attempting to train:  I got it from
> http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr
_2002/janqtr/pdf/14cfr91.126.pdf

This is the wrong link.  It is to a Federal Aviation Reg I was looking into.
Here is the link to the flight rules.  Sorry for any confusion this might
have caused.

www.jsc.nasa.gov/news/columbia/fr_generic.pdf
Bill Baker - 16 May 2007 05:45 GMT
>> He raised some important issues.
>
> Assuming he's telling the truth - an assumption I do not make.

Derek, I have read from respected sources here (and elsewhere) that
NASA has had on the books RTLS flight rules that it knew were not
actually survivable since early in the shuttle program.  I think you're
the one that's out of line here, frankly.
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 18 May 2007 10:35 GMT
>>>> Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like
>>>> it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Assuming he's telling the truth - an assumption I do not make.

Fai enough.  Though I think you're wrong here.

>>I enjoyed reading his account of what happened.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> treated was by NASA, how he is utterly without sin or error, and all
> his problems are the fault of a complex conspiracy by NASA managment.

Again, you're read on this, not others.

However, I find it ironic that you lambast others who seem to put blind
faith in NASA and yet when presented with a case that is most likely,
despite your doubts, a perfect example of NASA ignoring its own rules, etc.
you want to shoot the messenger.

Quite frankly, I thought better of you.

> D.

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Jeff Findley - 18 May 2007 22:01 GMT
>>>Seems to me to be more a case of sour grapes on your part because you
>>>don't like having the newsgroup spotlight directed away from your OT
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Quite frankly, I thought better of you.

I agree!  Come on Derek, stop thinking for yourself!  All the world is black
or white.  There is no gray area in-between.  ;-)

Seriously, considering Danny's history, you have to take any story he writes
with a huge block of salt.  On top of being a seriously disgruntled former
NASA employee, his has an admitted history of mental illness during the time
he was employed at NASA.  His is hardly an unbiased opinion when it comes to
NASA.

Jeff
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Brian Gaff - 13 May 2007 10:59 GMT
This is just an extreme example of what I think many of us have come across
in documentation. Its seems to be nobody's job to sort these things out,
they get passed on by word of mouth and little sticky labels.

I worked in QA and we had a word or two for these. We called them local
adaptations.  :-)

Brian

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> Here is a true story on me training RTLS's as NASA.  I hope you like it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> backup flight system in this phase - even though it is know to cause
> certain loss of orbiter and crew if they do engage.
Danny Deger - 13 May 2007 18:31 GMT
> This is just an extreme example of what I think many of us have come
> across in documentation. Its seems to be nobody's job to sort these things
> out, they get passed on by word of mouth and little sticky labels.
>
> I worked in QA and we had a word or two for these. We called them local
> adaptations.  :-)

I like this phrase, "local adaptations"  This was by far and away the worst
I found in the flight rules.  The Flight Data File on the other hand was
chock full of "local adaptation" with no system put in place to ever get rid
of them.

Danny Deger

> Brian
>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>> the backup flight system in this phase - even though it is know to cause
>> certain loss of orbiter and crew if they do engage.
Jim Oberg - 14 May 2007 06:04 GMT
This a a good story about a valid safety theme.

A 'local adaptation' nearly killed the ASTP-Apollo
crew during parachute descent -- the hydrazine
ingestion -- and specialists on duty tell me NASA
white-washed the investigation to deflect blame from the
mission commander.

(to be continued -- but not immediately)

>> This is just an extreme example of what I think many of us have come
>> across in documentation. Its seems to be nobody's job to sort these
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>>> engaging the backup flight system in this phase - even though it is know
>>> to cause certain loss of orbiter and crew if they do engage.
Danny Deger - 14 May 2007 15:46 GMT
> This a a good story about a valid safety theme.

Thanks, I have more.  I am writing an autobiography.  Not only lots of
stories about NASA, lots of good stories about flying the F-4E.  I have
posted two in the aviation groups and people like them.  I am close to
actively trying to get an agent.

> A 'local adaptation' nearly killed the ASTP-Apollo
> crew during parachute descent -- the hydrazine
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> (to be continued -- but not immediately)

I can't wait for more.

Danny Deger
 
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