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Space Forum / Shuttle / March 2007Nowak is out of Astronaut Corps
It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 Danny Deger > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. > > http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 > > Danny Deger NASA fires astronaut Lisa Nowak Nowak arrested last month after driving 900 miles to confront rival MSNBC staff and news service reports Updated: 12:56 p.m. PT March 7, 2007 Astronaut Lisa Nowak was fired by NASA on Wednesday, a month after she was arrested for attempted kidnapping in Florida, the space agency said. Nowak, 43, was arrested Feb. 5 after police said she drove 900 miles from Houston to Orlando wearing an adult diaper in order to avoid stops so that she could confront a romantic rival. Police say Nowak, a mother of three, donned a wig and followed Colleen Shipman from an airport terminal to her car to confront her, then pepper sprayed her through a cracked window when Shipman wouldnt unlock the door. Police who arrested Nowak and searched her car reported finding a BB gun, a new steel mallet, knife and rubber tubing. Nowak was charged with attempted kidnapping and burglary with assault. Nowak pleaded not guilty to attempted kidnapping and burglary with assault and was released on bond with an ankle monitoring device. NASA officials say the decision is no reflection on Nowaks possible guilt or innocence. Instead, the agency says it doesnt have an administrative system in place to handle the allegations. If Nowak were a civil servant, NASA would have the choice of placing her on administrative leave, leave without pay or indefinite suspension until the charges are resolved, said NASA spokesman James Hartsfield in Houston. But because she is an officer, those options are not available. Nowak, a captain in the Navy, instead will return to the military. Because Nowak is a naval officer on assignment to NASA, rather than a NASA civil servant, she is not subject to administrative action by NASA, agency officials said in a statement. Chief astronaut Steve Lindsey notified Nowak late last month that she was to be fired from the astronaut corps. Her dimissal marked the first time NASA has publicly fired an astronaut, according to space historian Roger Launius of the Smithsonian Institution. She is also the first active astronaut to be charged with a felony, he said. Nowaks frantic road trip to confront Shipman may have been sparked after she uncovered steamy e-mails Shipman sent to shuttle pilot Navy Cmdr. William Oefelein, including one he received during his mission aboard the shuttle Discovery in December, according to documents released Monday. Police found a letter in Nowaks car that indicated how much Mrs. Nowak loved Mr. Oefelein, the arrest affidavit said. And Nowak had copies of e-mails between Shipman and Oefelein. Since her arrest, Nowak, has told police that her relationship with Oefelein was more than a working relationship but less than a romantic one. But Oefelein, 41, told investigators they had been romantically involved since 2004. This report contains information from The Associated Press. © 2007 MSNBC Interactive URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17502655/ >> It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. >> >> http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 >> >> Danny Deger Thanks for reposting the copyrighted material from MSNBC. > © 2007 MSNBC Interactive > > URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17502655/  SignatureGreg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com > > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > NASA fires astronaut Lisa Nowak Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? Rusty On 7 Mar 2007 15:53:05 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Rusty" <reuben_barton@yahoo.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: >> > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? According to the news reports, it's a precedent. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, of course... >>Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? > >According to the news reports, it's a precedent. Doesn't mean it >hasn't happened, of course... I don't believe it has ever happened *publicly* before. There have been a few occasions when an astronaut was *privately* ordered to submit his resignation at once, and a number of occasions when an astronaut was quietly told that he could stick around as long as he wanted but he'd never fly again, but no public dismissals. I would speculate that Nowak was asked to resign quietly but refused. Signaturespsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | henry@spsystems.net > I would speculate that Nowak was asked to resign quietly but refused. Has she quietly resigned, how would this have impacted the process to send her back to the military ? I get the impression that NASA decided it was in the best PR interest to publically fire her and not appear to try to protect her. Letting her resign might have been seen as being too soft and tolerant of her type of behaviour. >> I would speculate that Nowak was asked to resign quietly but refused. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > resign might have been seen as being too soft and tolerant of her type of > behaviour. Keep in mind that she was and is employed by the Navy. NASA asked the Navy to cancel her detail to NASA and reassign her. The Navy did this. She was not "fired". She still gets a paycheck. Danny Deger >From Danny Deger: > Keep in mind that she was and is employed by the Navy. NASA asked the Navy > to cancel her detail to NASA and reassign her. The Navy did this. She was > not "fired". She still gets a paycheck. Dude, she was forced to turn in her NASA badge. If that's not getting fired, then I don't know what is. ...now since the Navy paid her salary prior to coming to NASA and the Navy continued to pay her salary during her stay at NASA, your line of reasoning would say that NASA never hired her in the first place! ~ CT > >From Danny Deger: >> Keep in mind that she was and is employed by the Navy. NASA asked the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Navy continued to pay her salary during her stay at NASA, your line of > reasoning would say that NASA never hired her in the first place! I just wanted to make sure people knew what was happening. I have no problem using the word "fired" as long as it doesn't misinform people hearing the word. The difference is HUGE to Nowak. She is continuing to get a paycheck. Typically when a person is fired, they loose a paycheck. Danny Deger >From Danny Deger: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > hearing the word. The difference is HUGE to Nowak. She is continuing to > get a paycheck. Typically when a person is fired, they loose a paycheck. Not quite as extreme as when those CEOs get fired and are "forced" to take their multimillion dollar severance package. Ha! ~ CT > > >From Danny Deger: > >> Keep in mind that she was and is employed by the Navy. NASA asked the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > hearing the word. The difference is HUGE to Nowak. She is continuing to > get a paycheck. Typically when a person is fired, they loose a paycheck. Carrying on arguments with Stuf4 is pointless. >From Barbara Needham: > > > >From Danny Deger: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Carrying on arguments with Stuf4 is pointless. I prefer the attitude of synergy. Like in this one instance, DannyDot pipes in with important points about Nowak's paycheck never missing a beat. I reply with a check toward what it means to be fired. Everyone can contribute valuable stuff, and we can all be enriched from the experience. ...not that I expect you to agree with that statement. Heh! ~ CT >From Henry Spencer: > I would speculate that Nowak > was asked to resign quietly but refused. I totally disagree with that. A hugely public spectacle is not something that NASA would have a passive response to. The scenario I imagine here is that even if Nowak *had* submitted her resignation, she would have been told, "We're not going to accept that. We are going to fire you. And we're going to communicate to the world why we're firing you." ~ CT > I would speculate that Nowak > was asked to resign quietly but refused. She did some serious things that were probably in violation of NASA policy, namely breaking into Oefelin computer and downloading his emails, and probably lied about needing to take some time off to do her dirty deed for Chapman. NASA has no reason to be lenient with her, they have probably helped her out with during her 30 day leave. I think there is probably enough material that are not connected to the Criminal Charges against her that would be deemed job terminating offenses by NASA. If Harris County wanted to charge her for breaking and entering of Oefelein's apartment, they probably have enough material to charge her. It will be interesting now what the US Navy is going to do with her. >It will be interesting now what the US Navy is going to do with her. Probably they'll follow standard procedure - which is to cooperate with local authorities. Depending on how things play out, she'll probably be relieved of her commission rather than cashiered. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL > Probably they'll follow standard procedure - which is to cooperate > with local authorities. Depending on how things play out, she'll > probably be relieved of her commission rather than cashiered. > "Decommissioned and scuttled to create artificial reef." Pat > > Probably they'll follow standard procedure - which is to cooperate > > with local authorities. Depending on how things play out, she'll [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Pat You know, NASA trains astronauts to be in confined spaces for long periods of time. They just never thought the training would apply to prison cells. ;-) Rusty > >It will be interesting now what the US Navy is going to do with her. . If (and I think this is likely) Nowak's next uniform is FLorida Prison Orange then the next step by the Navy will be a Courts Martial to charge her with (by definition) conduct unbecoming...that will be the end of all "benys" in terms of retirement. Being convicted by civilian court of a criminal charge (particularly a felony) is by defintion "conduct unbecoming" and that would make the matter of a "trial" somewhat less "JAG" like. The reason she has been assigned to Corpus is to put her within jurisdiction of a commanding officer who will be able to "prefer" charges. The trial should boost the ratings of Court TV. Robert > The reason she has been assigned to Corpus is to put her within > jurisdiction of a commanding officer who will be able to "prefer" > charges. Not necessarily. Note that there is a large naval hospital co-located at NAS Corpus Christi. On the web page for their mental health clinic, under "Services Offered" the first item listed is, "Critical Incident Stress Management." I suspect it was more a case of finding a fairly plausible spot to station her--she's a USN NFO so a Navair training command makes sense--with the best facilities for keeping what will essentially be a protracted suicide watch on her. Thing is, a big training base like that still leaves lots plausible ways to "have an accident" as a cover for suicide--"stumble" into a revving tail rotor, walk in front of a jet intake, etc. My view is that the LAST thing the USN is worried about is Nowak offing herself. According to some people back home who know her well, her ongoing theory right now is that she will beat the charges in FL. Suspects like "her" get this way. IE people who think of themselves as law abiding citizens roll into a sort of internal self justification of what they did, and then easily start assuming that the Jury (since it will be made up of people like them) will easily see what to them is already obvious; that they are not guilty of a crime, just bad judgment in carrying out nromal "things". This goes along quite well with Lisa saying "that was dumb" when confronted with why she had fired off the pepper spray. To her it was "just dumb" and she is pretty convinced that there are logical explanations that a jury will buy as well. She (Nowak) doesnt have the balls to off herself. Much less the desperation to do it. When desperation will set in is if (And I believe when ) she is convicted. Then there might be some danger of "flipping out". It is my experience with this type of suspect that it all comes crashing down in just a few minutes about that time. Wanda Holloway (Pom Pom Mom...the one who tried to have her cheerleader daughters rival Mom offed) was so confident that she wore a particularly "scanty" dress to court hoping to make a fairly impressive TV appearance. I am sure that Lisa has competent representation...it is really going to be hard to spin this one as anything that it isnt. As for Lisa and airplanes. Where she is going to be stationed the closest she will get to airplanes and Helo's is watching them fly overhead. Robert > My view is that the LAST thing the USN is worried about is Nowak > offing herself. Uh huh. Two words in re. the USN's expectations for Nowak's short-term mental health: Jeremy Boorda. And others. Look, one of my best buddies from high school was in the same Academy class as her. So clean-cut and wholesome it made ya' sick. Incredibly smart guy. He went boats instead of Pensacola, but he could easily have gone the other way and ended up an astronaut. I could never imagine him offing himself, but then I could never imagine him doing something as nuts as Nowak, his classmate, did. If he had, though, would I worry about how he'd handle it? Yeah, I would. I don't know Nowak's mom, but I knew _his_ mom. I can't imagine what it would be like to face his mom with the knowledge that I'd horribly screwed up my whole adult life--and the lives of three of her grandchildren in the balance. Looking for some bleak, horrible but quick and final way out might seem easier. (I know that Boorda was a mustang and that Nowak is a ringknocker. But in a way, isn't that fact as likely proof in support as a datum against? They're both true-blue USN elite. Granted, others of that ilk have handled public criticism differently--I'm thinking of the skippers of the Greeneville and Vincennes--but there's always that weight of holding up the pride of the service, even if you're not in a direct command role when you falter.) > According to some people back home who know her well, > her ongoing theory right now is that she will beat the charges in FL. I cannot begin to express the depth my doubt that you have any personal insight into her current mindset. Now that she's had a month to get over the shock, consult with competent counsel and register the consequences of NASA dumping her, I highly doubt that she believes she's going to "beat the rap". Look, she's confessed to doing multiple aggravated felonies involving premeditation, with solid physical evidence and eyewitness testimony from LEO's to back up her confessions...in a state with notoriously Draconian criminal justice laws and procedures. By now her attorney has had initial negotiations with the Orange Co. DA's office. It's starting to sink in that, though she's still living a modicum of a normal life--albeit ostracized from NASA--she's looking at a minimum of 2-3 years of incarceration, a BCD cashiering from the Navy and losing custody of her kids. That is a scarily desperate future for someone like her to contemplate, even with the love and support of family and friends supporting her. > As for Lisa and airplanes. Where she is going to be stationed the > closest she will get to airplanes and Helo's is watching them fly > overhead. Oh look, you're kind of right about something...sorta. Yes, I imagine that there will be a concerted effort to keep her away from the flightline and other obvious risk areas. But still, she's stationed on a freakin' Navair training base. She could wander into the wrong area of a paint shop, well away from the flightline, at the wrong time and end up "accidentally asphyxiated." 'Nuff said. I wouldn't want to be the one, on the incredible off chance she read this, to put ideas in her head. Bill. Clear Lake City Texas is a small shop. The aviator community in Clear Lake City is an even smaller one. The fast jet community in Clear Lake City is even smaller still. When I am at home...I do my third mile right around where Rich and Lisa Nowak live. Or use to...she is moving out (word is from the neighbors that they are just about split)... RingKnockers...this years graduation will add two more to the family. That is 5 in the last four years...and then we go to the brothers and sisters in law. When I was dating my late wife...one of the questions she asked me on our first date was "OK what do you not like about the Navy". My answer was to beat up on Ringknockers...then I saw hers... I havent made the mistake with the current "One and Only". take care. off to fly. Robert > Bill. > > Clear Lake City Texas is a small shop. The aviator community in Clear > Lake City is an even smaller one. The fast jet community in Clear > Lake City is even smaller still. [More telling details snipped] OK, I'll grant that you're actually that close to the situation down there (or else you're really dang good at faking it). I withdraw, conditionally, my doubts about your insights in re. her current mindset. But you can understand why I wrote what I did. Canoe U aside, she's a full freakin' captain! The Navy has a looong tradition of how they handle captains who screw up, even if they aren't in a command role at the time. She wouldn't be the first captain to, y'know, "go down with the ship." If she thinks she's gonna beat the felony charges, well, maybe that's a good thing. If she doesn't then she'll deal with the shock of impending incarceration when she's stronger, mentally. Regardless, I hope she salvages as much of her life as she can, eventually, so as to be a good mother to her kids in the long run. (That shot of her and her daughter with the stuffed dog really got under my skin. I don't know why. Well, I do but....) Hello Bill. It is truly a tragic situation. One of the things I have adopted in my life is a view of white collar crime that was first broached to me when I was in school at Glynco GA by an instructor from the US Secret Service. She had done a LOT of counterfiet investigation (mostly currency but a lot of credit card) and her view of white collar crime was that it really wasnt a specific type of crime committed by individuals (such as say embezzlement instead of theft) rather it was crime committed by people who 1) didnt fit the standard definition of society of those who routinly do serious crime and 2) who in their own sub consciousness did not really believe that they were committing crimes. I really sort of didnt buy that "anti" textbook explanation of the phrase, until I spent sometime in federal law enforcement (narcotics interdiction on the US Southern border) and I was truly amazed about how accurate the statement was. Nowak fits precisly that definition. >From every statement I have read or heard that someone has made who has (or claims to have and who I believe...and this includes some mutual friends and others) she really doesnt believe that she did anything more then "something that was dumb"....this is pretty typical of "white collar" crooks. Kenny boy Lay and I shared little incommon except we both belonged to the same Yacht Club and I have talked with him over some years...and in not intimate but certianly private conversations he would relay with some angst the fact that he really thought he was being unfairly attacked for doing things which were really no more then just "Marginal and common business operations". this culture is prevelant in the US in terms of people who run afoul of the law but who do not fall into typical "law breaker" classes. As is a sort of "sentiment" to feel quite anquished over what these people have done by those who either know them or who have some view of these people "as people like us". To put it bluntly (grin) had Nowak's actions been done by "a person from Pasadena" many would have an easier time seeing them as outright violations of the law....instead with Nowak..."there must be something mentally (or insert problem here) that caused her to do it". My argument is that the reality is that both "people" have fallen for the same problems...ie they are common criminals. I think that Lisa would have had these problems if she had been assigned to some fleet unit and everything else been the same...but the problem is accelerated at NASA (and to some extent in the NASA "community") by how they are in general. NASA has played the "space is special" gig for so long that it really believes it. Outside safety experts during the CAIB would roll their eyes over many of the things practiced at NASA that lead to Columbia going TU and yet the folks at NASA would respond just as matter of factly when questioned about methods and structures that were long ago abandoned at almost everyother technical endeavor in the US "space is special". The op ed that I wrote that the Houston Chronicle published on Nowak more or less tried to make the point that Nowak had a problem because of flaws in her personal character that would have surfaced in any reasonably difficult profession...and I truly believe that. two final (sorry so long) points..the military officers at NASA are mostly that in name only. A few like Susan Helms and Charlie Bolden retain a "officer first astronaut second" but most dont. They become "astro's uberallis"...and if she goes (as I suspect she will) to prison Nowak will do poorly. She will renter the real world going to NAS Corpus and "land hard" when she descends to an organziation "prison" where she is at the bottome of the feeding chain, instead of being on a semi pedestal as she (and astronauts in general) are at NASA. Being the "bitch" to Bertha is going to be the least of her worries. Robert >From Rand: > "Rusty": [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > According to the news reports, it's a precedent. Doesn't mean it > hasn't happened, of course... The standard route for "firing" astronauts is permanently grounding them, and then they quit. There has been precedent for astronauts getting fired outright, but this is the first case I'm aware of that went with a press release offering an official explanation for NASA's action. One fairly recent case of an astronaut getting fired was for misconduct regarding T-38 operations. Another recent action involved sending an astronaut away on a penalty, but that was a recoverable mistake that enabled reassignment to a shuttle flight. ~ CT > According to the news reports, it's a precedent. Doesn't mean it > hasn't happened, of course... > Carpenter pretty much got tossed out on his rear, although not fired. Pat >> According to the news reports, it's a precedent. Doesn't mean it >> hasn't happened, of course... >> >Carpenter pretty much got tossed out on his rear, although not fired. Who the guy whose wife divorced him & immediately got dumped? SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >Who the guy whose wife divorced him & immediately got dumped? Graveline....that's it... SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? > Not going to touch that line with a ten foot pole. =-O Pat >>> It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? Virgil "Gus" Ivan Grissom Edward Higgins White Roger Bruce Chaffee SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >From Shanghai Lil: > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? > > Virgil "Gus" Ivan Grissom > Edward Higgins White > Roger Bruce Chaffee <crickets> > >From Shanghai Lil: > > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > <crickets> Screeching Car tyres and a crash of glass....Frrrunnkiiisssss John John >> >From Shanghai Lil: >> > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John John Yup! >> >From Shanghai Lil: >> > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John John What happened to my post? "I don't think the human race will survive the next thousand years, unless we spread into space. There are too many accidents that can befall life on a single planet. But I'm an optimist. We will reach out to the stars." Stephen Hawking, interview with Daily Telegraph, 2001 The Wharf Rat >> Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Roger Bruce Chaffee > That's why I didn't touch that line... Pat >> Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? > > Virgil "Gus" Ivan Grissom > Edward Higgins White > Roger Bruce Chaffee Dude, you suck. Jeff Signature"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919) >>> It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. >>> http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 >>> Danny Deger >> NASA fires astronaut Lisa Nowak > > Has NASA publicly fired any astronauts in the past? Not that I know of. But the Soviets did fire a couple of their cosmonauts for bad behavior. Back in those days, that meant you were quietly eased out of the picture--literally. Even the news photos of the cosmonaut corps were retouched to erase them from the picture. SignatureSteven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > But the Soviets did fire a couple of their cosmonauts for bad behavior. Don't ever, ever, come back from leave drunk and take a swing at one of the military policemen. > Back in those days, that meant you were quietly eased out of the > picture--literally. Even the news photos of the cosmonaut corps were > retouched to erase them from the picture. One guy erased himself; he actually _did_ get sent to Siberia, and one day decided to step in front of a train. http://www.astronautix.com/astros/nelyubov.htm Pat The state legislature of New Mexico could always reinstate her to the astronaut corps. They seem to have little else to do. Better yet- they could rename "Pluto" as "Nowak". Let them take the fall together, as it's maybe a cooler name... Dale Bill Richardson should make these issues central to his Presidential campaign. How could one not vote for this guy? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bill_Richardson%2C_official_DOE_photo.png> >>>> It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. >>>> http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > picture--literally. Even the news photos of the cosmonaut corps were > retouched to erase them from the picture. This probably doesn't count on a technicality, but Dave Scott (and, I believe) Al Worden were re-assigned to desk jobs after an unauthorized stamps-for-sale deal they carried out during Apollo 15. Jim Irwin had already left the program when this was uncovered; Worden left not long after, and IIRC, Scott was sent to Dryden for a while. > If Nowak were a civil servant, NASA would have the choice of > placing her on administrative leave, leave without pay or > indefinite suspension until the charges are resolved, said NASA > spokesman James Hartsfield in Houston. But because she is an > officer, those options are not available. I think NASA has found a great way out of this. A good logical exit that is devoid of emotions. Big question: in the unlikely event that this Nowak lady is not found guilty, would she have any recourse to be re-instated in her former job ? > > If Nowak were a civil servant, NASA would have the choice of > > placing her on administrative leave, leave without pay or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Big question: in the unlikely event that this Nowak lady is not found guilty, > would she have any recourse to be re-instated in her former job ? Astronauts have been fired for a heck of a lot less than multiple felony charges. In short, no way. (And there is also a sure bet on the future of Billy-O's career with NASA.) ~ CT >Big question: in the unlikely event that this Nowak lady is not found guilty, >would she have any recourse to be re-instated in her former job ? There's obviously no precedent for this. If, by some chance, it was discovered that the charges were without any merit whatsoever, and a grave injustice had been done to her, then perhaps she might be able to be reinstated. In this case, however, that seems pretty unlikely. While I've managed to avoid going totally whacko, I've been through this sort of thing. It tends to impair one's judgement. She's probably not a nutcase, but rather a very smart and talented person who lost it. I just hope she can get her life back together- that's a tall order, let alone aspiring to return to being an astronaut. If she can simply do that, it's as happy an ending as we could hope for. I can't imagine going from the high of a shuttle mission to the low of where she is now, in such a short time. For me, I'm not sure that would be survivable. It kinda sucks that humans seem to have an almost biological need to be "in love". Just being horny all the time without any prejudices would seem to suffice in a Darwinian sense :) Dale >From Dale Carlson: > >Big question: in the unlikely event that this Nowak lady is not found guilty, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be able to be reinstated. In this case, however, that seems pretty > unlikely. I cannot stretch my imagination far enough to see ANY scenario that ends in reinstatement. No astronaut has any entitlement whatsoever to fly in space. And contrary to popular belief, astronauts are not hired to fly in space. They are hired to do PR. Flying in space is just their additional duty. In some unforseen turn of events where she is exonerated from every single accusation, she STILL stands as the antithesis of the ideal astronaut considering all of the negativity that has been generated. Ok, on second thought, I've now stretched my imagination a bit farther. There is that one point of view that: "All press is good press." There may be some parallel universe where the current NASA Administrator gets replaced by someone who ascribes to this philosophy (and the current president gets replaced by someone with a similar attitude) ... Uh, no. Not happening. Back to reality. Even assigning *Billy-O* to another flight invites regashing into the scar tissue from this event. (That's assuming this will actually heal sometime in the future.) > While I've managed to avoid going totally whacko, I've been through > this sort of thing. It tends to impair one's judgement. She's probably [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of where she is now, in such a short time. For me, I'm not sure that > would be survivable. The low I see stretches a lot further back then that. There are all the conscious decisions that were made in breaking commitments to spouses and intentionally convoluting the lives of children as well as adults. > It kinda sucks that humans seem to have an almost biological > need to be "in love". Just being horny all the time without any > prejudices would seem to suffice in a Darwinian sense :) I am a huge advocate of the concept of personal accountability. Many negative consequences can be avoided with a healthy dose of self- control. Those who submit to their biological urges reduce themselves to the state of animals. ~ CT > In some unforseen turn of events where she is exonerated from every > single accusation, she STILL stands as the antithesis of the ideal > astronaut considering all of the negativity that has been generated. *If* the court fully clears her or any charges, then wouldn't she be able to sue NASA for wrongful dismissal ? Or is that simply not possible since she wasn't technically a NASA employee on NASA payroll to begin with ? While it is fairly obvious that she is no longer a desirable employee, aren't there laws/rules that protect employees from wrongful dismissal ? "We don't really like what you did outside of working hours" is not a solid ground for dismissal , is it ? (working on the unlikely assumption that she did nothing illegal). In the end, I think it is obvious that she will be charged with something, and that will be enough to support her dismissal. I suspect NASA realised the odds of her being cleared of any/all charges are next to 0 and confidently proceeded to dismiss her. Big question is whether NASA will institute some "anti fraternisation" rules which would be tantamount to Hollywood preventing Brad Pitt from going out with an actress. Seems to me that astronauts have certain characteristics, and when both male and female astronauts exist, they are bound to find a certain affinity to each other. Ahhh, those pesky human emotions that get in the way. NASA is perhaps going to pursue projects to communicate with Vulcan quicker than history recalls, and will want the Vulcans to teach the astronaut corps to contorol their emotions and only have sex once every 7 years :-) >> In some unforseen turn of events where she is exonerated from every >> single accusation, she STILL stands as the antithesis of the ideal >> astronaut considering all of the negativity that has been generated. > > *If* the court fully clears her or any charges, then wouldn't she be able > to sue NASA for wrongful dismissal ? A) NASA may have sovereign immunity. B) On what grounds? Depending on the state, it may be "at will" which means an employer can let you go for any reason. C) Technically she was no longer detached from the Navy to NASA. So that's not the same as a straight firing. > Or is that simply not possible since she wasn't technically a NASA > employee on NASA payroll to begin with ? > > While it is fairly obvious that she is no longer a desirable employee, > aren't there laws/rules that protect employees from wrongful dismissal ? Not necessarily. And if as you say, "no longer a desirable employee" in itself is often grounds for dismissal. > "We don't really like what you did outside of working hours" is not a > solid ground for dismissal , is it ? > > (working on the unlikely assumption that she did nothing illegal). In many cases it is. In my previous job there were a number of things, some stated, some unstated that could have gotten me fired. > In the end, I think it is obvious that she will be charged with something, > and that will be enough to support her dismissal. I suspect NASA realised [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > recalls, and will want the Vulcans to teach the astronaut corps to > contorol their emotions and only have sex once every 7 years :-) SignatureGreg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com >> In some unforseen turn of events where she is exonerated from every >> single accusation, she STILL stands as the antithesis of the ideal >> astronaut considering all of the negativity that has been generated. > >*If* the court fully clears her or any charges, then wouldn't she be able to sue >NASA for wrongful dismissal ? If all charges are dropped (which seems spectacularly unlikely) perhaps. More likely, some charges will be dropped or reduced (as attempted murder already has been) and she would get off with only a fine or community service. In that case, she would almost certainly be court-martialed by the Navy for Conduct Unbecoming an Officer, and that would be NASA's out. Brian > In that case, she would almost certainly be > court-martialed by the Navy for Conduct Unbecoming an Officer > Article 1 - Diapers secured by tape tabs, not regulation 13 buttons. Article 2 - Rubber tubing not properly stowed. Article 3 - Use of steel mallet rather than belaying pin. Article 4 - Wig was a non-regulation hair style. Article 5 - Did not address intended victim as a fellow officer before attacking. Article 6 - Approached intended victim from starboard, not port, side as is required by right of way. Article 7 - Failure to display proper signal lights on her person at night. Article 8 - Attempted to enter intended victim's car without requesting permission to come aboard. Article 9 - Failure to first send intended victim a warning in the form of signal flags hanging over her desk, reading: "Permission To Lay Alongside Is Not Granted". Article 10 - Lack of professionalism in addressing intended victim as "Warthog Girl", "Aardvark a.s", "Farting Falcon", "Skirt Lifter", and "Big Ugly Face f.cker". Judgment of the court: Guilty on all counts except Article 10, in that the intended victim was indeed all of those things, and it is up to the United States Navy to fire a shot across the Air Force's scurvy bow whenever possible. Sentence: To be transfered to NAS Pensacola, reduced to the rank of bartender, and instruct our new pilots in how to really get under the flyboy's skin on a regular basis through imaginative insults. :-) Pat snip > Judgment of the court: > Guilty on all counts except Article 10, in that the intended victim was > indeed all of those things, and it is up to the United States Navy to fire > a shot across the Air Force's scurvy bow whenever possible. As a former Air Force pilot I want you to know I never got scurvy. I had the bartender at the O'Club put a lemon twist in my martinee to keep my vitamun C level up to standards. Danny Deger >> In some unforseen turn of events where she is exonerated from every >> single accusation, she STILL stands as the antithesis of the ideal >> astronaut considering all of the negativity that has been generated. > > *If* the court fully clears her or any charges, then wouldn't she be > able to sue NASA for wrongful dismissal ? No. > Or is that simply not possible since she wasn't technically a NASA > employee on NASA payroll to begin with ? Yes. All astronauts who are active-duty military officers remain employed by their home service. They are merely "detailed" to NASA. If NASA requests that the detail be terminated, their home service takes them back and reassigns them. Military officers have zero standing to sue if they don't like their assignment, and military astronauts are no different. SignatureJRF Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail, check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and think one step ahead of IBM. >Military officers have zero standing to sue if they don't >like their assignment, and military astronauts are no different. Not quite true. They can file IG or MEO (military equal opportunity) complaints if the feel they have been discriminated against. If the IG finds that the assignment or demotion (or lack of assignment or promotion) was given based on false information (officer subsequently found not-guilty), those orders can be rescinded, or promotions granted with pay back-dated to the time he/she should have been promoted, etc. Brian > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. > > http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 > > Danny Deger Next she will have to resign from the Navy (probably as part of the plea deal she will eventually make). She will probably receive an honorable (or at worst administrative) discharge On Mar 7, 6:56 pm, "alana7...@aol.com" <alana7...@aol.com> wrote: > > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > plea deal she will eventually make). She will probably receive an > honorable (or at worst administrative) discharge Does she have her 20 years in? -A.L. > On Mar 7, 6:56 pm, "alana7...@aol.com" <alana7...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -A.L. According to her bio she was commissioned in 1985 so the answer is yes >> On Mar 7, 6:56 pm, "alana7...@aol.com" <alana7...@aol.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >According to her bio she was commissioned in 1985 so the answer is yes Doesn't matter. A military pension is not automatic - one can have ones benefits stripped. D. SignatureTouch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL Look no further than sci.space.news actually. It does seem a little terse, I thought. However, given the very public circumstances, this is one case where you cannot really be innocent until proven guilty really. Kind of shot herself in the foot rather. I just hope she gets the support to get some form of life back, for her family's sake at least. Brian SignatureBrian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > It is official. Nowak is no longer an astronaut. > > http://www.knx1070.com/pages/290591.php?contentType=4&contentId=364665 > > Danny Deger |
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