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Chinese test Anti-Satellite weapon

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David E. Powell - 18 Jan 2007 16:30 GMT
Thought folks might want to know about this one.

<http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1188>

Chinese Test Anti-Satellite Weapon
By Craig Covault, Aviation Week & Space Technology, Cape Canaveral
Wednesday, January 17, 2007

Courtesy of Aviation Week & Space Technology and Aviationnow.com

U. S. intelligence agencies believe China performed a successful
anti-satellite (asat) weapons test at more than 500 mi. altitude Jan.
11 destroying an aging Chinese weather satellite target with a kinetic
kill vehicle launched on board a ballistic missile.

The Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the
Defense Intelligence Agency, NASA  and other government organizations
have a full court press underway to obtain data on the alleged test,
Aviation Week & Space Technology reports on its web site
Aviationnow.com.

If the test is verified it will signify a major new Chinese military
capability.

Neither the Office of the U. S. Secretary of Defense nor Air Force
Space Command would comment on the attack, which followed by several
months the alleged illumination of a U. S. military spacecraft by a
Chinese ground based laser.

China's growing military space capability is one major reason the Bush
Administration last year formed the nation's first new National Space
Policy in ten years,  Aviation Week will report in its Jan. 22 issue.

"The policy is designed to ensure that our space capabilities are
protected in a time of increasing challenges and threats," says Robert
G. Joseph, Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security
at the U. S. State Dept.

"This is imperative because space capabilities are vital to our
national security and to our economic well being," Joseph said in an
address on the new space policy at the National Press Club in
Washington D. C.

Details emerging from space sources indicate that the Chinese Feng Yun
1C (FY-1C) polar orbit weather satellite launched in 1999 was attacked
by an asat system launched from or near the Xichang Space Center.

The attack is believed to have occurred  as the weather satellite flew
at 530 mi. altitude 4 deg. west of Xichang located in Sichuan province.
Xichang is a major Chinese space launch center.

Although intelligence agencies must complete confirmation of the test,
the attack is believed to have occurred at about 5:28 p.m. EST  Jan.
11. U. S. intelligence agencies had been expecting some sort of test
that day, sources said.

U. S. Air Force Defense Support Program missile warning satellites in
geosynchronous orbit would have detected the Xichang launch of the asat
kill vehicle and U. S. Air Force Space Command monitored the FY-1C
orbit both before and after the exercise.

The test, if it occurred as envisioned by intelligence source, could
also have left considerable space debris in an orbit used by many
different satellites.

USAF radar reports on the Chinese FY-1C spacecraft have been posted
once or twice daily for years, but those reports jumped to about 4
times per day just before the alleged test.

The USAF radar reports then ceased Jan. 11,  but then appeared for a
day showing "signs of orbital distress". The reports were then halted
again.  The Air Force radars may well be busy cataloging many pieces of
debris, sources said.

Although more of a "policy weapon" at this time, the test shows that
the Chinese military can threaten the imaging reconnaissance satellites
operated by the U. S., Japan, Russia, Israel and Europe.

The Republic of China also operates a small imaging spacecraft that can
photograph  objects as small as about 10 ft. in size, a capability good
enough to count cruise missiles pointed at Taiwan from the Chinese
mainland. The Taiwanese in the past have also leased capability on an
Israeli reconnaissance satellite
john - 19 Jan 2007 00:31 GMT
> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Wednesday, January 17, 2007
>snip

Shouldn't be a problem since Globalist George and his Buds said we can
do business with them.
Americans are paying for the Communist Chinese advances in Military
capabilities.
I wonder if they will demand we turn over America to them to redeem all
those Dollars they hold or if they will demand the surrender of America
for the Communist cause?
George - 19 Jan 2007 07:00 GMT
>> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> those Dollars they hold or if they will demand the surrender of America
> for the Communist cause?

Not to worry.  Since they've tied their economy to our markets (yes, they
are still our markets), the first time they take out one of our staellites,
their economy will go belly up.  And I don't think the Chinese are that
stupid.

George
Gernot Hassenpflug - 19 Jan 2007 08:20 GMT
>>> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> their economy will go belly up.  And I don't think the Chinese are that
> stupid.

Certainly they are not stupid, Asian civilizations have a long culture
of valuing education and learning from the past. However, I don't
think your comment about "belly up" is valid. There are too many
parameters involved in turning an economy belly-up. And since China's
economy is still *not* an export-reliant industry, like for example
Japan's, export restrictions will probably not have terrible effects
(just my opinion too, BTW, not criticizing your view as wrong, I just
don't give it the same probability). Model results would help I
suppose. Another thing is that China holds a vast stock of US treasury
bills, much as does Japan. That's "tying" the US economy to China and
Japan, as much as US markets tie their conomies to the US.
Signature

BOFH excuse #51:

Cosmic ray particles crashed through the hard disk platter

George - 19 Jan 2007 13:03 GMT
>>>> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> bills, much as does Japan. That's "tying" the US economy to China and
> Japan, as much as US markets tie their conomies to the US.

Oh I agree completely with that assessment.  But China now has something it
has wanted for a very long time - a western-style economy.  Too many have
made too much money from it to want to see it rolled back, in IMHO.  I just
don't see them using this new weapon in any meaningful way in the near
future, least of all against the U.S.  I do see them saber-rattling at
Taiwan, and I think that that is where the threat truly lies, if there is
one.

George
Revision - 23 Jan 2007 07:11 GMT
> >. And since China's
>> economy is still *not* an export-reliant industry, like for example
>> Japan's, export restrictions will probably not have terrible effects

I wonder how this statement was arrived at.  China has large numbers of
agricultural and subsistence farmers.  Their kids go to the city to build
coffee pots and radios and so on.  I tend to think that if the US marekt
was closed that the economic impact would be enormous.  Of course, the
1.077 trillion that China holds in US Treasury debt would last for a
while.

>.  But China now has something it has wanted for a very long time - a
>western-style economy.

Perhaps.  But the foundation it is built on is a third-world country.
The major problem is water.  90% of the rivers in China are too toxic to
touch.  Wastewater treatment seems to be more difficult that letting all
of the stuff just flow into rivers.  Not to mention almost unregulated
dumping of mercury, arsenic, acids, etc.

Hundreds of millions of Chinese are illiterate peasants living in crude
mud houses.  The whole country is a ramshackle mess except for a few
percent of the economic elite, who put their money in Switzerland with
the hope of retiring somewhere other than China.  I am unimpressed by
China on multiple levels.  Local police are used as the personal
enforcers for local Pary bosses to whip any political opposition into
submission.  Any sort of widespread social disruption would quickly lead
to a mass holocaust as the prevailing psychology of the population lacks
any really valid social contract, to say nothing of morality or what
civilized people regard as common decency.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Andrew Swallow - 23 Jan 2007 18:30 GMT
>>> . And since China's
>>> economy is still *not* an export-reliant industry, like for example
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 1.077 trillion that China holds in US Treasury debt would last for a
> while.

Risky.  The value of the bonds is the interest the US Government pays.
The USA could copy a lot of third world governments and refuse to pay.

>> .  But China now has something it has wanted for a very long time - a
>> western-style economy.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> any really valid social contract, to say nothing of morality or what
> civilized people regard as common decency.

The Chinese industrial expansion is based on converting peasants into
factory workers.  In about 15 years time they are going to run out of
peasants.  This will cause a major dislocation.  The shortage of women
will cause problems too.

Andrew Swallow
Kerryn Offord - 24 Jan 2007 01:53 GMT
>>>> . And since China's
>>>> economy is still *not* an export-reliant industry, like for example
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Risky.  The value of the bonds is the interest the US Government pays.
> The USA could copy a lot of third world governments and refuse to pay.
<SNIP>

Just refuse to repay the Chinese, Or refuse to pay interest to everyone?

I can see defaulting on the interest resulting in the US having
difficulty borrowing overseas... And interest rates going up (The dollar
would attract junk bond interest rates because of the risk of default...)

If they just refuse to pay the Chinese.. They can sell the dollars for
Euros etc.. The dollar will fall... (Supply and demand)
Gernot Hassenpflug - 23 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT
>> >. And since China's
>>> economy is still *not* an export-reliant industry, like for example
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 1.077 trillion that China holds in US Treasury debt would last for a
> while.

I did not mean that export is not important, it is important for the
US also. But the internal market is huge.

Signature

BOFH excuse #137:

User was distributing pornography on server; system seized by FBI.

D - 21 Jan 2007 06:21 GMT
>>> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> staellites, their economy will go belly up.  And I don't think the Chinese
> are that stupid.

With the cessation of trade between our two countries, Wal-Mart goes belly
up.
Good bye small town America  :-/

> George
Tankfixer - 22 Jan 2007 02:18 GMT
In article <9tKdnTVxgafQmy7YnZ2dnUVZ_tCtnZ2d@comcast.com>, "D"
<anytown.usa> mumbled

> >>> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> With the cessation of trade between our two countries, Wal-Mart goes belly
> up.

Actually Wal Mart just goes to another source
kenb - 22 Jan 2007 02:48 GMT
"Tankfixer"  wrote in message:
>> With the cessation of trade between our two countries, Wal-Mart goes
>> belly
>> up.
>
> Actually Wal Mart just goes to another source

   I've heard that they do that every so often anyhow, once the villagers
start getting bolder and asking for raises and improved working conditions
and such.  Once that happens, they just shut it down and relocate somewhere
else where the people are hungrier and less likely to complain about details
like this.

Cheers,
kenb
Tankfixer - 22 Jan 2007 03:24 GMT
In article <hCVsh.16544$Ah.2635@read2.cgocable.net>, kenwho?@cogeco.ca
mumbled

> "Tankfixer"  wrote in message:
> >> With the cessation of trade between our two countries, Wal-Mart goes
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> else where the people are hungrier and less likely to complain about details
> like this.

Hate to burst your bubble but Walmart doesn't own the factories in
China.
Dave Kearton - 22 Jan 2007 03:31 GMT
> In article <hCVsh.16544$Ah.2635@read2.cgocable.net>, kenwho?@cogeco.ca
> mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Hate to burst your bubble but Walmart doesn't own the factories in
> China.

Walmart has 60+ stores there though.        I guess they're not too
competitive on price, coming up against the existing stores and street
markets.

They _do_ have the edge on customer service.      As of 2000/01 when I was
there last,  most of their department stores & retail outlets were based on
the old, archaic Soviet model.

Bizarre with a capital F.

Signature

Cheers

Dave Kearton

buff82driver - 22 Jan 2007 06:32 GMT
> With the cessation of trade between our two countries, Wal-Mart goes belly
> up.
> Good bye small town America  :-/
HAH! More like hello small town america being Wal-Mart is driving all
the mom and pop stores under. Wal-mart is evil and those that work for
higher mangement are traitors and the truckers and clerks etc. are
being exploited and used as a tool against their own country. Wal-mart
may have started noble but what China has maniuplated it into as its
personal direct crap goods pipeline into the USA its truly sad.

> > George
wattman5619 - 19 Jan 2007 14:44 GMT
This is why we need to continue are start wars program. We most likely
helped in this technology as we had it in 1985 when an F-15
successfully downed a satelite over northern Canada. The Chinese are
working on this tech, and I suppose the Russians too. But it can be a
good thing as more and more kooks try to get their own nukes, ie North
Korea and Iran. If Iran gets nukes and launches one into Isreal, what
do you think will happen.
buff82driver - 19 Jan 2007 20:52 GMT
> This is why we need to continue are start wars program. We most likely
> helped in this technology as we had it in 1985 when an F-15
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Korea and Iran. If Iran gets nukes and launches one into Isreal, what
> do you think will happen.
The way to negate the threat is to target the launch facility or better
yet just the pad used as to lessen the aftershock after a B-2 attack.
Just make sure to use a bomber and not a conventional tipped ICBM as it
could make China very nervous and wonder about it being a MIRV and
lauch their nukes on a raid warning. Does anyone know if China has a
credible satellite missile launch warning system? They might have spies
based around our ICBM missile fields to call home if we launch but if a
boomer opens up on them from the Pacific are they going to see the
missiles comming before its to late to return fire? We could probably
arrange an attack in such a way to ensure that a boomer is to far away
from the sea lanes for anyone to see the rocket plume as it goes up.
Just so the Russians don't warn China which they might not as China
might figure what the hell if we are getting nuked anyway we should
ensure that Russia doesn't come in after we have been crippled and nuke
the ones who warned them too.
Jack Linthicum - 19 Jan 2007 15:07 GMT
> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> mainland. The Taiwanese in the past have also leased capability on an
> Israeli reconnaissance satellite

Analogy: The Chinese take a shot gun to a sleeping rabbit, the FY-1C
weighs in at 950 kg and was in a sun synchronous orbit, ie an easy
target. The KH-11 is the weight of a school bus and changes its orbital
inclination and its altiutude from 150 nm to 600nm, it is designed to
avoid anti-satellite missiles, as is its brother the KH-12.

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/satellites.cfm
Jack Linthicum - 19 Jan 2007 15:35 GMT
> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> mainland. The Taiwanese in the past have also leased capability on an
> Israeli reconnaissance satellite

The working relationships that this administration seems to have with
its "enemies" is really remarkable. If we say al Qaeda is the major
threat to the world, bin Laden drops a video saying just the same
thing; if we rip Iran for their once and future nuke, they come back
with a nyah-nyah we're going to bomb you. Now the Chinese are building
up their really awful satellite intercept so the administration can
pump for a giant laser.

January 19, 2007
Flexing Muscle, China Destroys Satellite in Test
By WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID E. SANGER

China successfully carried out its first test of an antisatellite
weapon last week, signaling its resolve to play a major role in
military space activities and bringing expressions of concern from
Washington and other capitals, the Bush administration said yesterday.

Only two nations - the Soviet Union and the United States - have
previously destroyed spacecraft in antisatellite tests, most recently
the United States in the mid-1980s.

Arms control experts called the test, in which the weapon destroyed an
aging Chinese weather satellite, a troubling development that could
foreshadow an antisatellite arms race. Alternatively, however, some
experts speculated that it could precede a diplomatic effort by China
to prod the Bush administration into negotiations on a weapons ban.

White House officials said the United States and other nations, which
they did not identify, had "expressed our concern regarding this
action to the Chinese." Despite its protest, the Bush administration
has long resisted a global treaty banning such tests because it says it
needs freedom of action in space.

The weather satellite hit by the weapon had circled the globe at an
altitude of roughly 500 miles. In theory, the test means that China can
now hit American spy satellites, which orbit closer to Earth. The
satellites presumably in range of the Chinese missile include most of
the imagery satellites used for basic military reconnaissance, which
are essentially the eyes of the American intelligence community for
military movements, potential nuclear tests and even some
counterterrorism, and commercial satellites.

Experts said the weather satellite's speeding remnants could pose a
threat to other satellites for years or even decades.

In late August, President Bush authorized a new national space policy
that ignored calls for a global prohibition on such tests. The policy
said the United States would "preserve its rights, capabilities, and
freedom of action in space" and "dissuade or deter others from
either impeding those rights or developing capabilities intended to do
so." It declared the United States would "deny, if necessary,
adversaries the use of space capabilities hostile to U.S. national
interests."

The Chinese test "could be a shot across the bow," said Theresa
Hitchens, director of the Center for Defense Information, a private
group in Washington that tracks military programs. "For several
years, the Russians and Chinese have been trying to push a treaty to
ban space weapons. The concept of exhibiting a hard-power capability to
bring somebody to the negotiating table is a classic cold war
technique."

The White House statement, issued by the National Security Council,
said China's "development and testing of such weapons is
inconsistent with the spirit of cooperation that both countries aspire
to in the civil space area."

An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
China's test said the launching was detected by the United States in
the early evening of Jan. 11, which would have been early morning on
Jan. 12 in China. American satellites tracked the launching of the
medium-range ballistic missile, and later space radars saw the debris.

The antisatellite test was first reported late Wednesday on the Web
site of Aviation Week and Space Technology, an industry magazine. It
said intelligence agencies had yet to "complete confirmation of the
test."

The test, the magazine said, appeared to employ a ground-based
interceptor that used the sheer force of impact rather than an
exploding warhead to shatter the satellite.

The Bush administration has conducted research that critics say could
produce a powerful ground-based laser weapon that would be used against
enemy satellites.

The largely secret project, parts of which were made public through Air
Force budget documents submitted to Congress last year, appears to be
part of a wide-ranging administration effort to develop space weapons,
both defensive and offensive.

The administration's laser research is far more ambitious than a
previous effort by the Clinton administration to develop an
antisatellite laser, though the administration denies that it is an
attempt to build a laser weapon.

"There's nothing subtle about this," he said. "They've
created a huge debris cloud that will last a quarter century or more.
It's at a higher elevation than the test we did in 1985, and for that
one the last trackable debris took 17 years to clear out."

Mr. Krepon added that the administration had long argued that the world
needed no space-weapons treaty because no such arms existed and because
the last tests were two decades ago. "It seems," he said, "that
argument is no longer operative."
T3 - 19 Jan 2007 17:55 GMT
> The working relationships that this administration seems to have with
> its "enemies" is really remarkable. If we say al Qaeda is the major
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> up their really awful satellite intercept so the administration can
> pump for a giant laser.

The biggest fallout(pun intended) might well be from the junk in left in
LEO, though I'm beginning to wonder why we've lost contact with our lastest
KeyHole...
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jan 2007 09:51 GMT
...
> An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
> China's test said the launching was detected by the United States in
> the early evening of Jan. 11, which would have been early morning on
> Jan. 12 in China. American satellites tracked the launching of the
> medium-range ballistic missile, and later space radars saw the debris.

Could it be possible China remotely detonated
that old satellite? Only a few ounzes of TNT
would be necessary. Haven't quite read of a
precise radar confirmation of an interception.
A direct hit is an awesome achievement, I
doubt China can do it.
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 11:37 GMT
> ...
> > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> doubt China can do it.
> Ken

We apparently tracked the launch, thank someone for that. A direct hit
by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
significant pieces is hardly a direct hit. The Chinese have created a
lot of ill will by polluting an orbital area with this debris.

The Chinese offered to duplicate the "no weapons in space" treaty and
the U.S. was the only nation to vote against it. We have been
supporting the military-industrial complex and their search for new
markets for new products by taking stances like that.
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jan 2007 12:24 GMT
> > ...
> > > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
> significant pieces is hardly a direct hit.

As opposed to a "near miss"?
Really it's the old hitting a bullet with a bullet
problem that the most advanced US ABM
systems have problems with.

> The Chinese have created a
> lot of ill will by polluting an orbital area with this debris.

It'll be ironic if the next space-walking chinkonaut
gets a piece of space debris stuck in his bum, ouch!

> The Chinese offered to duplicate the "no weapons in space" treaty and
> the U.S. was the only nation to vote against it. We have been
> supporting the military-industrial complex and their search for new
> markets for new products by taking stances like that.

It's not that simple.
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 12:54 GMT
> > > ...
> > > > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> It's not that simple.
> Ken

More like taking a scatter gun to a radio or TV. A stray piece of lead
will do the same damage as total distruction. Most of the kinetic
warheads are just that, a shotgun, since hit-to-kill requires either
target cooperation or a very controlled situation not much different
from target cooperation.

Some of the earliest Chinese MRBMs carried warheads 2.5 times the mass
of this satellite, the occurence of significant debris suggests that
the hit was not direct.
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jan 2007 13:41 GMT
> > > > ...
> > > > > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> More like taking a scatter gun to a radio or TV. A stray piece of lead
> will do the same damage as total distruction.

Hmm, I understand the BB thing would go right
threw the sat, recall ~ 16,000 mph. Ever shoot
a can with a .22? Damn thing justs sits there,
even when the bullet goes through it.

> Most of the kinetic
> warheads are just that, a shotgun, since hit-to-kill requires either
> target cooperation or a very controlled situation not much different
> from target cooperation.

Sure, that will disable a warhead if something
vital is damaged, but it won't blow it up, unless
a fuel tank or some pressurized system is hit,
but an old weather sat is a dead tin can.

> Some of the earliest Chinese MRBMs carried warheads 2.5 times the mass
> of this satellite, the occurence of significant debris suggests that
> the hit was not direct.

I'm guessing your theory is the MRBM put a *cloud*
of shot on a ballistic trajectory for the sat to fly into,
(I shouldn't have to guess, you can explain you idea
better than I can!), and that shredded the tin can sat.
But even so, that requires extremely fine high speed
split second guidance, recall there's no air to fin with,
all final manuevers need to be done with thrusters.

The 16 variables are, sats: x,y,z,t ,dx,dy,dz (dv) and
MRBM's X,Y,Z,T, dX,dY,dZ (dV).

To intercept requires, xyzt = XYZT , by processing the
relative dV - dv in 3D. The Rusky's are 10-15 years
ahead of the US, and it's on the edge of their ability.
It's possible the interceptor stage was Rusky, but
no way they'd sell it and I don't see a motive from
an expansive demo.
 
Smell's fishy to me.
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 13:54 GMT
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> Smell's fishy to me.
> Ken

I would guess it missed by 10 miles or less, warhead a sort of super
Claymore, at a range of 540 nm up, say 1000 mile flight path, miss is
about what a MRBM of the Soviet vintage might do (SS-4) in a similar
path. Not really accurate, again, shooting a radio with a shot gun from
a range of 50 yards, announce it as a test if it fails. It is a form of
blackmail, like "we have other toys, want to see one in operation?"

http://www.gisdevelopment.net/aars/acrs/1999/ps6/ps6211.asp
T3 - 20 Jan 2007 14:49 GMT
> I would guess it missed by 10 miles or less, warhead a sort of super
> Claymore, at a range of 540 nm up, say 1000 mile flight path, miss is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.gisdevelopment.net/aars/acrs/1999/ps6/ps6211.asp

The big deal was if it (Kill vehicle) used a manuvering type IR seeker, if
so, it was a fairly significant event. If it was a shotgun type thing, not
so much. In any event, they really seemed to have pissed some folks off, how
long all that crap stays in orbit and whether it ends up destroying
something valuable will determine how long they stay po'd...

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China_Anti_Satellite_Test_Sparks_Space_Junk_Outc
ry_999.html


by Richard Ingham
Paris (AFP) Jan 19, 2007
China's test of an anti-satellite weapon triggered charges Friday that it
had caused dangerous debris to scatter into low Earth orbit, posing a
potential threat to commercial, scientific and military satellites of other
nations.
"It looks really terrible. I am shocked," said a space scientist, explaining
that the reported test took place in a region thickly populated by
satellites, including those used for monitoring storms and climate change.

"Space is not a playground for playing games," the scientist, outraged, said
in an interview with AFP. "It's meant for the benefit of mankind."

The website space.com, quoting sources that it did not identify, said the
January 11 strike against the old Chinese weather satellite had caused it to
smash up into "hundreds of hundreds of pieces, fluttering through low Earth
orbit."

"The mess of space junk does put other satellites, including the
International Space Station, at some risk," space.com's Leonard David said,
adding though that the chances of this were "very small."

The main repercussion of Chinese test has been fears of an arms race in
space -- but debris is another big source of concern.

The space age reaches 50 years on October 4 this year -- the anniversary of
the launch of the Soviet satellite Sputnik -- and there are hundreds of
thousands of pieces whirling in orbit, the result mainly of exploded rocket
stages and broken-up satellites.

David Wright, co-director of the Global Security Programme at the Union of
Concerned Scientists (UCS), a US private advocacy group, said the satellite
that was destroyed had a mass of 750 kilos (1,650 pounds) and had been
orbiting at an altitude of 850 kilometers (520 miles).

Many commercial, military and navigational satellites orbit in the region of
900 kilometers (560 miles), he said. The maximum altitude of the
International Space Station is around 450 kilometers (280 miles).

"The collision would be expected to completely fragment the satellite into
millions of pieces of debris -- nearly 800 debris fragments of size 10
centimeters (four inches) or larger, nearly 40,000 debris fragments with
size between one and 10 centimeters (half to four inches) and some two
million fragments of size one millimeter (0.04 inch) or larger," said
Wright.

"At the very high speeds these debris particles would have, particles as
small as one millimeter (0.04 inch) can be very destructive."

Most satellites do not carry sufficient shielding for even tiny particles
like this, and in any case shielding is ineffective against any debris
larger than about one centimetre (half an inch) in size," said Wright in a
statement.

The orbital region "is very heavily used by satellites for both civil and
military uses, which are threatened by the added debris," he warned

Among those who voiced fears was Australia, which said on Friday that, in
addition to worries about the militarisation of space, "we're concerned
about the impact that debris from destroyed satellites could have on other
satellites, which are very expensive pieces of equipment."

The danger from debris comes from the enormous speeds at which they travel,
which means even very small pieces impact with high energy.

In 1996, a French spy satellite, Cerise, was wacked at about 50,000
kilometers (30,000 miles) per hour by a wheeling fragment left from an
exploded Ariane rocket.

In June 1983, the windscreen of the US space shuttle Challenger had to be
replaced after it was chipped by a fleck of paint measuring 0.3mm (0.01 of
an inch), that impacted at four kms (2.5 miles) per second.

The worst debris clouds are in two main areas -- in low Earth orbit (LEO),
which is at an altitude of between 800 and 1,500 kilometers (500 and 950
miles) above the Earth, and in geostationary orbit, about 35,000 kms (22,000
miles) away. In LEO, debris can take a decade or longer before eventually
burning up on contact with Earth's atmosphere.

The Chinese test was first reported by US magazine Aviation Week and Space
Technology and confirmed by the White House.

The only other anti-satellite test that has been carried out was in
September 1985 by the United States. Its method, as China's, was a "kinetic
energy" weapon, essentially slamming a projectile into the target.

Source: Agence France-Presse
Monte Davis - 20 Jan 2007 16:47 GMT
"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote:

>Really it's the old hitting a bullet with a bullet
>problem that the most advanced US ABM
>systems have problems with.

Do you really see no difference between hitting your own weather
satellite, in a well-known orbit, with multiple windows of opportunity
every day and unlimited time to prepare...

And hitting one or more ballistic missiles/warheads on very short
notice -- possibly from many launch pads and/or subs, possibly
stealthed and/or jinking evasively, possibly among many decoys?

It's not silly to describe the former as a first step in the direction
of the latter. It *is* silly to say they're the same thing.


Monte Davis
http://montedavis.livejournal.com
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 21 Jan 2007 03:51 GMT
> As opposed to a "near miss"?
> Really it's the old hitting a bullet with a bullet
> problem that the most advanced US ABM
> systems have problems with.

Other than the "bullet" we're hitting was in a known orbit, tracked for days
if not weeks, had no counter-measures, etc.

It's about on-par with some of our own ABM tests.  Useful, but not
necessarily saying an operational ABM system where the above factors are the
opposite is financially worthwhile.

>> The Chinese have created a
>> lot of ill will by polluting an orbital area with this debris.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> It's not that simple.
> Ken
Tankfixer - 22 Jan 2007 02:21 GMT
In article <1169295867.757957.17720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
dynamics@vianet.on.ca mumbled

> > We apparently tracked the launch, thank someone for that. A direct hit
> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> problem that the most advanced US ABM
> systems have problems with.

Or you put a reciever on the "test" missle and tune it to hone on a
transmission from the "target"
Andrew Swallow - 22 Jan 2007 10:26 GMT
> In article <1169295867.757957.17720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> dynamics@vianet.on.ca mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Or you put a reciever on the "test" missle and tune it to hone on a
> transmission from the "target"

Launching both missiles from the same site and similar amounts of
fuel will tend to get them to orbit at the same height and
inclination.  Give one a speed boost and wait for them to crash.

There is a big difference between a bullet and a satellite, your
interceptor gets another go at the satellite every 100 minutes.

Andrew Swallow
Diamond Jim - 22 Jan 2007 12:39 GMT
>> In article <1169295867.757957.17720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>> dynamics@vianet.on.ca mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Andrew Swallow

"Give one a speed boast........" and the orbit will change! They may never
meet.

Its not simple as changing speed, that's why they call it rocket science.
Jack Linthicum - 22 Jan 2007 12:59 GMT
> >> In article <1169295867.757957.17720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> >> dynamics@vianet.on.ca mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Its not simple as changing speed, that's why they call it rocket science.

Yes the ability to change orbit is one of the great assets of the U.S.
recce program, it is carefully laid out in the descriptions of the
KH-11 and KH-12 improvements.

"The KH-12 can adjust its orbit to provide coverage of areas that are
of particular interest, and can maneuver to avoid anti-satellite
interceptors - powered by a large rocket engine attached to a frame
that also resembles the Hubble Space Telescope."
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/satellites-pr.cfm
Tankfixer - 23 Jan 2007 02:21 GMT
In article <A6GdnSjK-_PaDCnYnZ2dnUVZ8qydnZ2d@bt.com>,
am.swallow@btopenworld.com mumbled
> > In article <1169295867.757957.17720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> > dynamics@vianet.on.ca mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> fuel will tend to get them to orbit at the same height and
> inclination.  Give one a speed boost and wait for them to crash.

I understand the target was a out of service weather satellite.

> There is a big difference between a bullet and a satellite, your
> interceptor gets another go at the satellite every 100 minutes.

I'd wonder if there arn't some "trailers" out there sitting a hundred
miles back and waiting for the "go" signal to boost and catch up.
Andrew Swallow - 23 Jan 2007 18:22 GMT
> In article <A6GdnSjK-_PaDCnYnZ2dnUVZ8qydnZ2d@bt.com>,
> am.swallow@btopenworld.com mumbled
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I understand the target was a out of service weather satellite.

I did not know that at the time.  However the same technique can
be used, just several years apart.

>> There is a big difference between a bullet and a satellite, your
>> interceptor gets another go at the satellite every 100 minutes.
>
> I'd wonder if there arn't some "trailers" out there sitting a hundred
> miles back and waiting for the "go" signal to boost and catch up.

Weather satellites consist of a camera and a powerful transmitter.
The missile may have used radar, ground radar or tracked the
transmitter.  If the missile was in a lower orbit it could simply
have waited until the satellite entered its target area and then
started its rocket engine.

Andrew Swallow
Tex Houston - 20 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT
> A direct hit
> by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
> significant pieces is hardly a direct hit.

Would you please decode the above statement.

Tex
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 16:30 GMT
> > A direct hit
> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Tex

Big thing hit small thing destroy called direct hit. Big thing explode
not hit small thing and not destroy small thing called miss.

The statements made say the 1600 pound satellite was in multiple pieces
in orbit

"The Chinese test, which Beijing has not acknowledged but was tracked
by intelligence agencies, destroyed an aging communications satellite
some 500 miles above the Earth. The missile smashed the satellite into
hundreds of pieces large enough to pose a danger for a decade or more
to spacecraft or satellites that pass through the debris." NYT

DF-2 MEDIUM-RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILE

The DF-2 (NATO code name: CSS-1) is a single-stage, liquid-propellant,
road-mobile, medium-range ballistic missile (MRBM)
Re-entry Vehicle Weight: 1,500kg

DF-3 INTERMEDIATE-RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILE

The DongFeng-3 (DF-3, NATO designation: CSS-2) is a single-warhead,
single-stage, liquid-propellant, intermediate-range ballistic missile
(IRBM).
Re-entry Vehicle Mass: 2,150kg

http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/df2.asp
Tex Houston - 20 Jan 2007 16:55 GMT
>> > A direct hit
>> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> hundreds of pieces large enough to pose a danger for a decade or more
> to spacecraft or satellites that pass through the debris." NYT

Did the missile HIT the satellite or not?  You better read your statement
again.

Tex
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 17:32 GMT
> >> > A direct hit
> >> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Tex

How the hell should I know? If you read my two statements you will see
I did not state one way or other, but implied (heard that word?) that
if the missile had hit the bird there would not have been all those big
pieces around. I estimate closing speed on these two objects to be
around 35,000 miles per hour. Work out how much energy is expended when
two objects collide, one at 4000 pounds and the other at 1600.

Assume the satellite will travel the equivalent of the circumference
of each orbit,  approximately 38,850 miles. in 102 minutes, therefore
speed is something around 22k mph, the missile is at least 10k mph and
possibly more, and is not closing from behind.
La N - 20 Jan 2007 17:35 GMT
>> >> > A direct hit
>> >> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> speed is something around 22k mph, the missile is at least 10k mph and
> possibly more, and is not closing from behind.

Nothing to do with the topic ... but ... since this is being x-posted to the
space shuttle group, Jack, do you have any idea of future shuttle launching
dates?

And could the Chinese shoot down a space shuttle if they wanted? ..%)

- nil
Jack Linthicum - 20 Jan 2007 17:47 GMT
> >> >> > A direct hit
> >> >> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into large
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> - nil

launch dates at
http://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/launches/scheduleStatus.asp
March 16 on this but I heard it may slide up.

Given that the shuttle is at 166 nm, 17k mph and passes over China
several times a day a similar shot is possible. Some of the background
on Gen. Hackett's WWIII books had a 1980s era laser blinding the
shuttle pilots.
La N - 20 Jan 2007 17:54 GMT
>> >> >> > A direct hit
>> >> >> > by an MRBM warhead that splinters a 1600 pound satellite into
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> http://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/launches/scheduleStatus.asp
> March 16 on this but I heard it may slide up.

Hmmm ... it seems that in the past couple of years, shuttle launches have
become more frequent that they are barely newsworthy anymore.

> Given that the shuttle is at 166 nm, 17k mph and passes over China
> several times a day a similar shot is possible. Some of the background
> on Gen. Hackett's WWIII books had a 1980s era laser blinding the
> shuttle pilots.

Yes, a laser would be just as effective, cheaper and more reliable .....

- nilita
Bill Baker - 21 Jan 2007 04:48 GMT
[...]

>> Could it be possible China remotely detonated
>> that old satellite? Only a few ounzes of TNT
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> We apparently tracked the launch, thank someone for that.

But was the US intelligence apparatus alerted with sufficient lead time
to collect a real-time radar track on the ASAT launch and supposed KKV
track conjunction with the satellite?  What about telemetry intercepts
to/from the target satellite?  My impression, from the information
publically disclosed, is the answer to all these questions is no.  We
apparently have enough tracking data from routine orbital monitoring to
make a before-and-after conclusion of a probable ASAT intercept, but I
doubt we have the telemetry intercepts to rule out the scenario that
Ken posits.  It would be one heckuva high-cost, long lead-time feint
for the Chinese to have lofted a boobytrapped weather satellite for
eventual exploitation as an ersatz ASAT target, but it seems that we
didn't collect the ELINT to rule that out.
dott.Piergiorgio - 21 Jan 2007 10:23 GMT
Bill Baker ha scritto:

> But was the US intelligence apparatus alerted with sufficient lead time
> to collect a real-time radar track on the ASAT launch and supposed KKV
> track conjunction with the satellite?

AFAIK there's a treaty whose estabilish prior warning of ICBM tests and
space launches. No one wants to get ballistic (literally!) and start
global nuclear exchange for a mere test of ballistic missiles. Someone
at NORAD or equivalent Russian air defence system need to know that the
launch in date X at hour Y is a mere test and not the start of WW III...

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jan 2007 17:48 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> doubt we have the telemetry intercepts to rule out the scenario that
> Ken posits.

> It would be one heckuva high-cost, long lead-time feint
> for the Chinese to have lofted a boobytrapped weather satellite for
> eventual exploitation as an ersatz ASAT target, but it seems that we
> didn't collect the ELINT to rule that out.

Just a few more points,
It could be SOP to have a self-destruct on
a satellite, in case something goes astray,
a few ounces of TNT is likely plenty.

The Chinese have not yet made a statement
I know of. Typically they'd be inclined to know
what we'd be able to gather, about the test to
learn about our intel.

The so-called "debris field" analysis should
give a really good idea of how the satellite
was fractured. Our intel on that might be
classified. From what I can gather, which
isn't much, the debris is characteristic of a
self-destruct, the signatures are quite different.

Given the current administations perchant to
report worst case scenarios from fuzzy intel,
could be it's an alligator under our bed.

So on the balance of probabilities I figure it's
a hoax as an ASAT kill.
What it does do though is prove China can blow
a BIG PITA FART.
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 21 Jan 2007 18:00 GMT
> > [...]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> a BIG PITA FART.
> Ken

Debris is in a slightly different orbit that what the FY-1C was in.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=spacespace&id=n
ews/CHI01177.xml


USAF radar reports on the Chinese FY-1C spacecraft have been posted
once or twice daily for years, but those reports jumped to about 4
times per day just before the alleged test.

The USAF radar reports then ceased Jan. 11, but then appeared for a day
showing "signs of orbital distress". The reports were then halted
again. The Air Force radars may well be busy cataloging many pieces of
debris, sources said.
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jan 2007 19:19 GMT
> > > [...]
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Debris is in a slightly different orbit that what the FY-1C was in.

I didn't see that in your ref's, but anyway a minor
explosive can produce a "slight" course changing
thrusting impulse.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=spacespace&id=n
ews/CHI01177.xml


>  USAF radar reports on the Chinese FY-1C spacecraft have been posted
> once or twice daily for years, but those reports jumped to about 4
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> again. The Air Force radars may well be busy cataloging many pieces of
> debris, sources said.

Thanks, if you happen on some new data please post.
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 21 Jan 2007 19:43 GMT
> > > > [...]
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> Thanks, if you happen on some new data please post.
> Ken

Sorry, I must have used a different reference.

"Jeffrey Lewis, executive director of Harvard's Managing the Atom
Project was among the first to disclose the incident Jan. 17 in a blog
he writes for the Web site armscontrolwonk.com.

Lewis said in a Jan. 17 telephone interview that an analysis of orbital
data that is gathered by U.S. Air Force space surveillance systems and
posted online at Space-Track.org and Heavens-Above.com indicated that
the Chinese FY-1C weather satellite, which was launched in 1999,
disappeared from view about Jan. 11. In an interview Jan. 18, Lewis
said the satellite reappeared Jan. 12 in a different orbit and in
multiple pieces. Lewis said the orbital tracking data strongly
suggested the satellite was struck by a missile fired from the Chinese
mainland.

"This is an enormous mess they [the Chinese] have created. There is no
excuse for what is a reckless, stupid and self-defeating decision on
their part," Lewis said.

"Space-Track is showing about 40 pieces of debris, which is probably
just the tip of the iceberg," Lewis said. Space-Track.org is the U.S.
Air Force Web site that provides public satellite tracking data"
.http://politics.yahoo.com/s/space/whitehouseconfirmschineseantisatelliteweapontest
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jan 2007 20:22 GMT
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> Air Force Web site that provides public satellite tracking data"
> .http://politics.yahoo.com/s/space/whitehouseconfirmschineseantisatelliteweapontest

Thanks Jack,
I quote "classified briefings" from your link.
Anyway, let me maintain my tact, there is no way
Lewis could have determined that "different orbit"
from a preliminary radar echo from the debris field,
because the echo has no mass data.
Another thing to consider is the analysis of the flight
800 that exploded off Long Island. Now some fellows
did research on the possibility of a meteor hitting the
plane. The effect of very high energy ~ 20,000 mph
bullet is nil, because it has no time to react, so not
much energy is transferred.

Tell ya what, light a candle and pass you finger through
the flame quickly, no time for heating, that's a tripe
example, but close enough.
Thanks again
Ken
Jack Linthicum - 21 Jan 2007 20:46 GMT
> > > > Debris is in a slightly different orbit that what the FY-1C was in.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> from a preliminary radar echo from the debris field,
> because the echo has no mass data.

You were doing pretty well there, too bad. I estimate something like
100 orbits of what remains, there are models for surmising the mass and
tracking to confirm it. I presume the next step is to take that back in
time to do guesstimates of the size and nature of the force used to do
in FY-1C, and from what angle it was used. One item said it was 4
degrees west of a known launch site, but if they used one of the mobile
MRBMs that is just conjecture.
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jan 2007 22:25 GMT
> > > > > Debris is in a slightly different orbit that what the FY-1C was in.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> You were doing pretty well there, too bad.

Well thank you Jack, I pretty much burned through
the public information, as course and ambigous as
it is. Thanks again,
Ken

> I estimate something like
> 100 orbits of what remains, there are models for surmising the mass and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> degrees west of a known launch site, but if they used one of the mobile
> MRBMs that is just conjecture.
buff82driver - 20 Jan 2007 14:22 GMT
> ...
> > An administration official who had reviewed the intelligence about
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> doubt China can do it.
> Ken
The technology to hit a non-manuvuring satellite in low earth orbit is
not as advanced as you think it is. We did it using pre486 and PowerPC
processors in the 80s and could have done it sooner had we used a
shotgun pellet approach in the 70s as opposed to a direct hit. What
killed ABM work for the most part is MIRV technology. A satellite has a
relatively fixed orbit and is extremenly predictable. What would be
impressive is if the satellite was using its thrusters to change orbit
in a unknown way to the missile and it still scored a hit. If that had
been aiming at an american spy satellite I have my doubts of it hitting
it. We would have aggressively had it change orbit and I would not be
suprised if our sats have rocket flares to spoof any IR signature from
solar sat heating and chaff and jammers. At orbital speeds even a
slight change in oribt makes for a huge correction an interceptor must
adjust for which is not easy late in the game b/c of its inertia. Just
like evading a SAM. What the ChiComs did is like shooting down a SR-71
not speeding up or slowing down or turning at all. Its hard but it can
be done.
Jack Linthicum - 22 Jan 2007 11:29 GMT
> Thought folks might want to know about this one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 11 destroying an aging Chinese weather satellite target with a kinetic
> kill vehicle launched on board a ballistic missile.

I saw a Japanese report that some liaison officer with the Chinese
embassy or the foreign office said he hadn't been informed. Some might
see this as a demonstration of the PLA that the "government" isn't the
only force in China. It took a week for the U.S. end of the
intelligence chain to finally get a piece of news out, " protests filed
by the United States, Japan, Canada and Australia, among others, were
met with silence - and quizzical looks from officials in The Chinese
Foreign Ministry, who seemed to be caught unaware."

"In an interview late Friday, Stephen J. Hadley, President Bush's
national security adviser, raised the possibility that China's
leaders might not have fully known what their military was doing."

January 22, 2007
U.S. Tries to Interpret China's Silence Over Test
By DAVID E. SANGER and JOSEPH KAHN

WASHINGTON, Jan. 21 - Bush administration officials said that they
had been unable to get even the most basic diplomatic response from
China after their detection of a successful test to destroy a satellite
10 days ago, and that they were uncertain whether China's top
leaders, including President Hu Jintao, were fully aware of the test or
the reaction it would engender.

In interviews over the past two days, American officials with access to
the intelligence on the test said the United States kept mum about it
in hopes that China would come forth with an explanation.

It was more than a week before the intelligence leaked out: a Chinese
missile had been launched and an aging weather satellite in its path,
more than 500 miles above the earth, had been reduced to rubble. But
protests filed by the United States, Japan, Canada and Australia, among
others, were met with silence - and quizzical looks from officials in
The Chinese Foreign Ministry, who seemed to be caught unaware.

The mysteries surrounding China's silence are reminiscent of the cold
war, when every case of muscle-flexing by competing powers was examined
for evidence of a deeper agenda.

The American officials presume that Mr. Hu was generally aware of the
missile testing program, but speculate that he may not have known the
timing of the test. China's continuing silence would appear to
suggest, at a minimum, that Mr. Hu did not anticipate a strong
international reaction, either because he had not fully prepared for
the possibility that the test would succeed, or because he did not
foresee that American intelligence on it would be shared with allies,
or leaked.

In an interview late Friday, Stephen J. Hadley, President Bush's
national security adviser, raised the possibility that China's
leaders might not have fully known what their military was doing.

"The question on something like this is, at what level in the Chinese
government are people witting, and have they approved?" Mr. Hadley
asked. He suggested that the diplomatic protests were intended, in
part, to force Mr. Hu to give some clue about China's intentions.

"It will ensure that the issue will now get ventilated at the highest
levels in China," he said, "and it will be interesting to see how
it comes out."

The threat to United States interests is clear: the test demonstrated
that China could destroy American spy satellites in low-earth orbit
(the very satellites that picked up the destruction of the Chinese
weather satellite).

Chinese military officials have extensively studied how the United
States has used satellite imagery in the Persian Gulf war, the wars in
Iraq and Afghanistan, and in tracking North Korea's nuclear weapons
program - an area in which there has been some limited
intelligence-sharing between Chinese and American officials. Several
senior administration officials said such studies had included
extensive analysis of how satellite surveillance could be used by the
United States in case of a crisis over Taiwan.

"This is a wake-up call," said Robert Joseph, the under secretary
of state for arms control and international security. "A small number
of states are pursuing capabilities to exploit our vulnerabilities."

As a result, officials said, the Chinese test is likely to prompt an
urgent new effort inside the Bush administration to find ways to
counter China's antisatellite technology. Among the options are
efforts to "harden" vulnerable satellites, improve their
maneuverability so that they can evade crude kinetic weapons like the
one that destroyed the Chinese satellite and develop a backup system of
replacement satellites that could be launched immediately if one in
orbit is destroyed.

American officials noted that the United States and Russia had not
conducted such tests for two decades, and that the international norm
had changed, in part because so many private satellites had been
launched by many nations. "The Chinese seem out of step on this one,
and we don't know why," one official said.

But the more immediate mystery about the destruction of the satellite
revolves around China's prolonged silence - and what it says about
the commitments President Hu and President Bush have made concerning
increasing their communication, and diminishing the secrecy around
China's military buildup.

Chinese leaders often hesitate to engage with foreign officials on
matters of military secrecy. It took days to get the Chinese to respond
in the first foreign policy crisis to confront the Bush administration
- the forcing down, on Chinese territory, of an American spy plane in
2001. Eventually the plane's crew was returned, unharmed, but the
prolonged silence unnerved American officials.

In this case, the communication blackout raised the possibility that
top Chinese officials were either trying to anger the United States or
that the test was conducted without the full involvement of the one
official who has authority to coordinate the military and civilian
bureaucracies: President Hu. American officials said they believed that
the Foreign Ministry - the one department that deals daily with the
rest of the world - was left in the dark.

"What we heard, in essence, was, 'We'll get back to you,' "
said a senior American diplomat. "It was unclear they even knew what
was going on."

Chinese political and military analysts, who would not speak on the
record about an issue the Chinese government still regards as secret,
said they considered it unlikely that the army's Second Artillery
forces, in charge of its ballistic missiles, would conduct a test of a
sophisticated new weapon without approval from the highest levels.

But they suggested that the test might have been approved in principle,
with little advance preparation for the diplomatic fallout in the event
it was successful. That entails not just new military worries; the
destruction of the weather satellite left debris in space that could
damage satellites from other nations.

"It's the kind of silence that makes you wonder what's happening
inside the country," said another senior American official who has
been monitoring the case. "I'm sure the Chinese leadership knew
there were tests under way, in a general sort of way. But they don't
seem to have been prepared for a success, and they clearly had not
thought about what they would say to the world."

The timing is significant. Chinese officials have hinted in recent
months that they are prepared to grant an American request to establish
a military-to-military hot line that may be used to enhance
communication. But China has moved slowly to establish the link, which
is based on the cold war hot line to Moscow, and there is little
evidence that Chinese military officers would have offered an
explanation for the antisatellite test if it had been set up.

President Bush and Mr. Hu hold regular phone conversations about
continuing issues, including how to manage North Korea's nuclear
program. But Mr. Hu and Mr. Bush never developed the kind of close ties
that Mr. Bush's aides forecast once the pragmatic-sounding Mr. Hu,
who is close to Mr. Bush's age, took office.

Their relationship suffered during an awkward trip by Mr. Hu to
Washington last spring, when Mr. Bush declined to hold a state dinner
for him - there was a working lunch instead - and the arrival
ceremony was marred by a mistaken announcement that the anthem that
would be played would be for the Republic of China, the formal name for
Taiwan.
Gernot Hassenpflug - 23 Jan 2007 03:02 GMT
Hehe, some funny stuff in that article. I suggest flexing of muscle or
not, one should always be on the lookout for more information about
the deeper agenda, since almost by definition government agendas are
not laid out openly. The gaffe about the national anthem is funny too:
does that reflect on how the US administration feels a real Republic
should be run? :-)
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Brian Gaff - 23 Jan 2007 10:01 GMT
I get the impression that someone in China is in terrible hot water over
this..:-)

Brian

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Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

> Hehe, some funny stuff in that article. I suggest flexing of muscle or
> not, one should always be on the lookout for more information about
> the deeper agenda, since almost by definition government agendas are
> not laid out openly. The gaffe about the national anthem is funny too:
> does that reflect on how the US administration feels a real Republic
> should be run? :-)
Jack Linthicum - 23 Jan 2007 11:09 GMT
> I get the impression that someone in China is in terrible hot water over
> this..:-)
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> > Password is too complex to decrypt

I get the impression that the recent appearance of the Chinese
President in military uniform is a possible sign that he is trying to
place himself in a way that in the event of a military push for more
resources and expansion he can be seen as leading. Much as the old
football coach line about "the trick is to appear to be leading a
parade when you are actually being run out of town".
Jack Linthicum - 23 Jan 2007 11:27 GMT
January 23, 2007
China Confirms Missile Test to Destroy Satellite
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 4:40 a.m. ET

BEIJING (AP) -- China's Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that Beijing had
confirmed its recent missile test to some countries, including the U.S.
and Japan, but that it is against an arms race in space.

Both Washington and Tokyo expressed concern about the Jan. 11 test in
which China used a missile to shoot down one of its old weather
satellites. Both said the anti-satellite test would expand the arms
race to space.

''China has opposed the weaponization of space and any arms race,''
Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a news conference, adding
the test was not targeted toward any country.

Before China's confirmation of the test, the U.S. said it detected the
weapon destroying an old Chinese weather satellite. Aviation Week,
which first reported the test, said the satellite was hit by a kinetic
kill vehicle launched from a ballistic missile.

Analysts said the test represented an indirect threat to U.S. defense
systems by raising the possibility that its spy satellites could be
shot down. The threat wouldn't affect the anti-missile system, which
relies only on ground-based radar.

The U.S. military has had the capability to shoot down satellites since
the 1980s. In October, President Bush signed an order asserting the
United States' right to deny adversaries access to space for hostile
purposes.
 
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