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Space Forum / Shuttle / July 2006after the next accident...
Manned space will likely be gutted from NASA. That leaves pads 39 A & B with no futher use. I think they should be made into nice permanent exhibits. Return 39B to the appearance of the apollo era, and stack a full model of a saturn 5 in launch configuration. Build large plexiglass bubble over entire structure, and do the same for the other pad stacking a left over tank, solids less ful and enterprise. both vehicles can be left straing to go somewhere Open both pads for tours, something thats never been available to the general public. Turn the VAB into a museum too, and while there at it build a memorial to Apoolo one at the pad and return the capsule to its post fire condition and exhibit it in a small proper way. this would help the local economy thru tourism,. the government should offere big bucks for other private companies space operations >Manned space will likely be gutted from NASA. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >the government should offere big bucks for other private companies >space operations that would make a nice exhibit, but let's hope it doesn't happen right away. <Haller chicken little nonsense snipped> > that would make a nice exhibit, but let's hope it doesn't happen right > away. Please don't feed Bob. He's killfiled around here for a reason by nearly everyone. For the last 7+ years this is all he does is whine and cry about the shuttle. Before Columbia he would whine that each and every mission was going to be the one to blow up. He's like an insane man at your local airport screaming at you to not get on a plane because this'll be the *one* to crash for *sure*! Eventually when the shuttle is retired, he'll just latch onto CEV or Dreamchaser or whatever else replaces it. When one of those vehicles suffers a catastrophic accident, he'll cry about how he was the only one who knew all along that it was going to happen. -Mike > <Haller chicken little nonsense snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > all along that it was going to happen. > -Mike Bob - I swear son, if you had one tenth of the concern for the crews and their families that you claim to, you would tone down the rhetoric just before the launch. I am the first to admit that there is no . . . none at all . . . scientific basis for my statement. Like many of yours, it's an emotional statement. But crimeny, listen to yourself, you are sounding ghoulish. Just give it a partial break until after the launch, and then you can, if you want, in accordance with your right of free speech, ramp it right back up. May God speed the crew of Discovery. To you and all the others on the group, have a good evening. John > He's like an insane >man at your local airport screaming at you to not get on a plane [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >catastrophic accident, he'll cry about how he was the only one who knew >all along that it was going to happen. So he's really a modern pop culture "psychic", the kind who get feature spots on Coast To Coast AM. He should at least be making a living at this, he just needs to reach an audience that actually wants to hear him. And nothing builds up a fan base like a sandwich board & cardboard megaphone. My concerns are for the CREW and more impoortandly the familys they may well leave behind... Overriding the engineers, with that management hat, got us 7 dead astronauts and one lost vehicle. Awhile ago someone posted its not like they are ignoring the engineers none have quit, and neither have any astronauts. So engineer stands up for what he believes and is ignored... Just one question if we are depending on atlantis for a rescue mission about a month from now, how does atlantis fly with a know waterlogged tank? schedule again driving flying, cause of both accidents and 14 dead crew. I feel like I am at a accident scenne just before it occurs, can see it coming but unable to warn anyone...... Dont get me wrong I want a nice safe flight just like you do. But this clearly isnt worth the risks! > My concerns are for the CREW and more impoortandly the familys they may > well leave behind... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Dont get me wrong I want a nice safe flight just like you do. But this > clearly isnt worth the risks! Not your call. You're a sick man, Bob...sick, sick, sick. You say this days before a launch? Do you know that families of the astronauts might read this? You couldn't care less about the crew and their families, Bob. You're a drama queen, and you only care about the attention you draw to youself. You are shameful. > You are shameful. Correction... Shameless!!!  SignatureGareth I feel like I did BEFORE columbia:( I certinally HOPE everything goes fine.... But really believe this is all schedule driven... Water runs out of atlantis tank the one for the supposed rescue shuttle and it wouldnt effect current launch:( In the event a rescue shuttle is needed, just what tank will be used? the one thats waterlogged? >> You are shameful. > Correction... Shameless!!! I decided to stop by to see how things are here pre-launch, and this is what I was met with--more screeching from Bbo Hlaler. I can't believe it anyone still replies to him. I just can't. I came to the conclusion long ago that it isn't he fears another accident, but that he lives for the day there is an accident. Hope the rest of you are well. Godspeed, Discovery. rl SignatureRhonda Lea Kirk Insisting on perfect safety is for people without the balls to live in the real world. Mary Shafer Iliff Well we have Griffin openly admitting....... "You're not gonna like this, and I'm sure I'm not going to like how it sounds in print, but we are playing the odds," NASA Administrator Mike Griffin said. " from florida today....... with griffin playing the odds oys very possible we will have another disaster. at that point Griffin can watch as manned space gets gutted from the agency he was supposed to care for. Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say launch anyway lets play the odds.......... > Well we have Griffin openly admitting....... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > launch anyway lets play the odds.......... Rhonda. . . you are right . . . this started as a reply to Bob . . . but then as I wrote it . . .I realized (again) . . . that it was a waste . . . Go Discovery John <snipped> > Rhonda. . . you are right . . . this started as a reply to Bob . . . > but then as I wrote it . . .I realized (again) . . . that it was a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John John, hallerb drones. That's all he does. If everyone had killfiled him years ago, it would have saved a lot of trouble. If he had a single insight or even one redeeming virture, it would be one thing, but he's just a never-was who puffs himself up by drooling all over sci.space. He lives for the attention, nothing more. He doesn't give a sh.t about the space program or anything else but himself. rl SignatureRhonda Lea Kirk Insisting on perfect safety is for people without the balls to live in the real world. Mary Shafer Iliff ><snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >rl FWIW, I maintain a large book site (Mysteries/SFF/etc author info and almost 9000 reviews) and emailed him a few years ago to ask if he was the same Bob Haller who writes mysteries (he wasn't). We weren't discussing NASA, but he seemed a nice person in the few emails where we chatted back then. I don't agree with his "gloom and doom" stance on launching the shuttle, but I don't killfile him or hate him because of it. BTW, who was the guy who used to post so much weird stuff about Challenger and had written a book about it. For some reason, I was reminded of him when they talked about RCS heater problems today, but I can't remember his name and I never really understood what his theory was. IIRC, he was always arguing about whether the SRBs on Challenger crossed or not and I seem to remember that there was an accidental RCS firing in the theory somewhere. Getting back to the subject of Bob, it sure would be great to be a fly on the wall and hear a discussion of what test flying means between Bob and Chuck Yeager :-) Personally, I think it's time to fly, if the weather will just cooperate. -- David (not an aerospace engineer or NASA/Contractor employee) > Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say > launch anyway lets play the odds.......... Why are the engineers the experts? They are not any more educated. George Evans :> Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say :> launch anyway lets play the odds.......... : :Why are the engineers the experts? They are not any more educated. But they are *differently* educated. Who are you going to believe about the risks of a complex system; folks whose training and expertise is in building and analyzing complex systems or folks whose training and expertise is in managing large organizations? Having said that, the final call belongs to the manager because he's the one who's going to have to go to that uncomfortable meeting to explain any incorrect decision, whether it is a decision to delay or a decision to launch. The job of the engineers is to make sure the manager understands both the upside and downside risks. Signature"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden > :> Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say > :> launch anyway lets play the odds.......... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The job of the engineers is to make sure the manager understands both the > upside and downside risks. Engineers are better at seeing trees than forests. I want both kinds of people in the room together. Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I don't think that's the best answer. George Evans :> :> Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say :> :> launch anyway lets play the odds.......... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :Engineers are better at seeing trees than forests. I want both kinds of :people in the room together. Varies by engineer. But what managers see is generally neither the trees nor the forest. They're not even on the same continent. They're sitting there reading a description of the forest provided by some engineer. :Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was :wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I :don't think that's the best answer. Neither do I (and I don't need to ask an engineer). Getting a failure doesn't mean that making the attempt was wrong. It may just mean that the odds crapped on you that day. Now if you go back and do a root cause analysis on the failure and find that the fault was one you hadn't considered or it was one that you grossly misestimated the odds of occurrence on then you arrive at "the decision to fly MAY have been wrong". Real engineers aren't the 'black and white' people that most seem to think they are. Signature"We come into the world and take our chances. Fate is just the weight of circumstances. That's the way that Lady Luck dances. Roll the bones...." -- "Roll The Bones", Rush > :Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was > :wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of occurrence on then you arrive at "the decision to fly MAY have been > wrong". Why would the decision be wrong even then? Is the role of test flying that unimportant? George Evans :> :Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was :> :wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : :Why would the decision be wrong even then? Because you made it based on bad information and one makes these decisions based on a level of acceptable risk. If you underestimate the risk in the course of making the decision, that decision may well be 'wrong'. :Is the role of test flying that :unimportant? I won't even hazard a guess as to what you think you're asking here. Signature"Oooo, scary! Y'know, there are a lot scarier things in the world than you ... and I'm one of them." -- Buffy the vampire > :> :Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was > :> :wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I won't even hazard a guess as to what you think you're asking here. I'm questioning your willingness to participate in the destructive process of second guessing. At some point you have to put the pencil down and see what happens. If you find out you misunderestimated something then the test has netted you some information. You seen to be thinking that a perfect engineer can predict perfectly, barring luck, which I don't think engineers believe in; in which case test flights are unnecessary. We just need to find perfect engineers. Contrarily, I think the hypothetical decision to go fly was not wrong even if you find out a failure was due to a faulty analysis as long as your actions were in good faith, i.e. you didn't know the analysis was faulty before flight. George Evans :> :> :Ask an engineer if a system failure means that the decision to fly was :> :> :wrong. I'm guessing most would think the answer is obviously yes. But I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] :I'm questioning your willingness to participate in the destructive process :of second guessing. Uh, no better. Still won't hazard a guess. :At some point you have to put the pencil down and see :what happens. True, but that point does not amount to "Gee, it might blow up, Joe, so go ahead and fly." :If you find out you misunderestimated something then the test :has netted you some information. True, but one tries real hard not to do this in a test program, particularly in a manned program. There are a lot of dead test pilots resulting from your side of this discussion. :You seen to be thinking that a perfect :engineer can predict perfectly,... Sorry, but I don't feel particularly responsible for how things "seem" to you and I'm sure reality cares about it as little as I do and simply refuses to reconfigure. You'd be surprised how much better things can be predicted these days. That's why we no longer kill half a dozen test pilots a year. :barring luck, which I don't think engineers :believe in; Of course they do. They just don't plan tests that rely for success on it. Hint: In a test program you try to gradually approach the boundaries from the 'safe' side. You kill a lot fewer pilots that way. :in which case test flights are unnecessary. We just need to find :perfect engineers. I already have a job, thanks. :Contrarily, I think the hypothetical decision to go fly was not wrong even :if you find out a failure was due to a faulty analysis as long as your :actions were in good faith, i.e. you didn't know the analysis was faulty :before flight. Garbage in, garbage out. If you make a decision based on faulty data and flawed assumptions and something bad happens, then that decision was WRONG. This is called being responsible. Grown-ups do it. Signature"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden >:> Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say >:> launch anyway lets play the odds.......... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >expertise is in building and analyzing complex systems or folks whose >training and expertise is in managing large organizations? Hmmm. These guys look suspiciously like engineers to me - see experts from their NASA biographies below: Hale earned a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Rice University in 1976, and a Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Purdue University in 1978. Hale began his career with NASA in 1978 as a propulsion officer in the Propulsion Systems Section, Flight Control Division of Flight Operations at the Johnson Space Center. Hale served as a flight director in Mission Control for 41 Space Shuttle missions. Griffin received a bachelor's degree in Physics from Johns Hopkins University; a master's degree in aerospace science from Catholic University of America; a Ph.D. in aerospace engineering from the University of Maryland; a master's degree in electrical engineering from the University of Southern California; a master's degree in applied physics from Johns Hopkins University A registered professional engineer in Maryland and California, Griffin is a member of the National Academy of Engineering and the International Academy of Astronautics, an honorary fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), a fellow of the American Astronautical Society, and a member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers.. Earlier in his career, Griffin served as chief engineer and as associate administrator for Exploration at NASA SignatureBrian Heil (319) 335-0675 | Stay Alert! | Technology Services Systems Administrator/Programmer | Trust No One! | University of Iowa brian-heil@uiowa.edu | Keep Your Laser Handy | College of Business >> :> Griffin is the first admin to over rule the experts and say >> :> launch anyway lets play the odds.......... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Earlier in his career, Griffin served as chief engineer and as associate > administrator for Exploration at NASA But everyone knows that when you put on that "administrator's hat" all your brains leak out. :-) George Evans :But everyone knows that when you put on that "administrator's hat" all your :brains leak out. :-) Nah, it's the lobotomy they make you get so that that 'manager hat' will fit. Easier to resize your head than resize the hat. :-) On a somewhat more serious note, the real problem is still communication. It doesn't matter if the manager used to be a working engineer if the folks under them doing the work don't adequately communicate the risks. The guy at the top doesn't have time to follow every little detail - that's why he has people under him. Signature"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden |
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