Launch platform - horizontal vs vertical vehicle
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Aaron Lawrence - 21 May 2006 10:58 GMT Hi all,
A few questions regarding launch platforms. I've read the basics I can find about STS MLP (vertical) and the Buran-Energia platform (horizontal), but I wonder if people could expand.
Basically I can't really see WHY the US always seems to have chosen vertically mounted launch platforms, while the Russians/USSR often seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they both got used to?
So far I've found the following possible reasons for a horizontal mount platform:
- vehicle is more stable in transit. Perhaps a benefit in rough weather of Kazakhstan?
- can be moved more quickly. But is this significant? Whether 1 hour or 8 hours, does it really matter?
- more complexity and weight in elevating part of platform. This probably makes the platform roughly twice as complex, but I guess the launch platform is quite a small part of overall cost.
- for some things, easier access for assembly - but equally, for some things it's harder. Could be a wash.
- Have to build vehicle to accept stress at 90 degrees to thrust. How significant is this?
- The vehicle assembly area can be lower, more like a conventional building, though still very large - actually the surface area might be larger which might actually be more difficult to build.
Also, the STS uses tracks on a hardened road while Buran-Energia used twin railway tracks. It seems like the railway is the more sensible solution (known for heavy load bearing) and also allows using conventional railway engines for propulsion. I guess there is some hypothetical flexibility to go different places with a tracked vehicle, but in practice it can only go on the hardened track that's pre-built. So why ?
Thanks.
 Signature aaronl at consultant dot com For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Bob Haller - 21 May 2006 13:17 GMT largely because of the terrible weather at the russian site. little time at outdoor pad. any problems just bring it back on the rails and repair/
probably a better system than the us with shuttles sitting outdoors for much of their life waiting to launch.
this has caused corrosion that likely wouldnt of occured with the vehicle in a clean room.
much nicer for workers no mosquitoes:)_
plus is a launch pad accident takes out the pad theres less to lose since a lot more equiptement is back at the VAB equivalent.
Aaron Lawrence - 22 May 2006 11:46 GMT On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the name of Bob Haller exclaimed:
> probably a better system than the us with shuttles sitting outdoors for > much of their life waiting to launch. Yes, it seems that way to me ...
Inertia seems like a poor excuse. But I guess they were trying to save money where they could ...
 Signature aaronl at consultant dot com For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Graypearl - 21 May 2006 20:21 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they > both got used to? <snip>
> Also, the STS uses tracks on a hardened road while Buran-Energia used > twin railway tracks. It seems like the railway is the more sensible [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but in practice it can only go on the hardened track that's pre-built. > So why ? I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff ... but I can offer a few suggestions ...
First, the current setup for assembly of the STS is left over from the assembly of the Saturn V. That involved the assembly of a 363-foot high monster. Also, they decided to not build a gantry for the vehicles at pads 39A and 39B, but to carry the gantry along with the Saturn V on the mobile launch platform out to the pad. I don't think they pursued a "horizontal transport/elevate to vertical at the pad" option for very long, if at all.
Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile launch platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option that they could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but I'd say a couple of meters or so, at least). So I'm guessing that the most stable option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle.
I daresay that others with more knowledge than I about this will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is where the rationale came from. When STS came along, it was cheaper to modify the existing infrastructure than to build an all new setup (or at least that was how it was sold).
See if you can track down a copy of the Murray and Cox book (http://www.apollostory.com/) if you'd like some background into where the idea for the VAB/transport system originated.
Hope this helps.
James
Bob Haller - 22 May 2006 03:14 GMT i believe the crushed rock lays on a asphalt base, because KSC sits basically in a swamp
Dale - 22 May 2006 13:42 GMT On Mon, 22 May 2006 22:48:27 +1200, Aaron Lawrence <aaronlNOSPAM@NOSPAMconsultant.com> wrote:
>On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the >name of Graypearl exclaimed:
>> So I'm guessing that the most stable >> option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle. > >I would have thought railway tracks would be better, since they provide >additional stiffening and smoothing of small lumps. But a vertically transported vehicle has a smaller footprint than a horizontal one. Perhaps using tracks is an easier way to distribute the more concentrated load over a wider area than lots of rails and wheels.
Dale
John Doe - 23 May 2006 06:16 GMT Carrying a small Soyuz rocket horizontally is fairly trivial because the support structure is not overly complex.
Carrying the shuttle stack horizontally would require some interesting support structures. Such a structure would not only have to support the tank,srb,shuttle, but also be usable to lift the stack vertically AND be able to retract from it easily.
The problem I have is the RSS being use to complete the work on the PAD, instead of using the VAB to fully outfit the shuttle before it is moved to the pad.
I have a question about MPLM:
I assume that it must enter the launch pad with high precision in its alignment in order to deposit the launch platform onto the pad. Looking at the traction mechanisms , it doesn't appear that it has a high degree of directional manoeuvrability. How far from the pad must the MPLM start to make final direction corrections in order to arrive at the pad in the exact right direction and alignment ? (I assume they use lasers for alignment ?) Or is there a dotted white line along the way and the driver of the MPLM just aligns himself with that white line ?
Aaron Lawrence - 22 May 2006 11:48 GMT On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the name of Graypearl exclaimed:
> First, the current setup for assembly of the STS is left over from the > assembly of the Saturn V. That involved the assembly of a 363-foot high > monster. I see ....
> Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved > sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile launch > platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option that they > could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but I'd say a > couple of meters or so, at least). This is what I meant :)
> So I'm guessing that the most stable > option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle. I would have thought railway tracks would be better, since they provide additional stiffening and smoothing of small lumps.
Thanks for your help.
 Signature aaronl at consultant dot com For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Jeff Findley - 22 May 2006 16:20 GMT > Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved > sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile > launch platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option > that they could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but > I'd say a couple of meters or so, at least). So I'm guessing that the most > stable option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle. Actually, I thought that the rocks used were smooth river rock. They do get crushed a bit by the crawler's movement, which is expected.
Here's an Apollo 11 documnet that talks about the crawlerway (see page 66 in the PDF, which is actually page 166 in the scanned document. http://www-lib.ksc.nasa.gov/lib/archives/apollo/pk/APOLLO11pt2.PDF
It seems the smooth river rock layer is only the top layer and is six to eight inches deep, depending on whether you're on a curve or straight section of the crawlerway. Below that relatively thin layer you have other layers that a civil engineer would be able to deciper better than this computer programmer with an aerospace engineering degree. ;-)
Jeff
 Signature "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)
ed kyle - 22 May 2006 17:38 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they > both got used to? Early U.S. missiles like Redstone, Atlas, Thor, and Jupiter were, just like the USSR's R-7, designed to be transported and stored horizontally
and erected to vertical shortly before launch. When upper stages were first added to the U.S. missiles, most systems were designed for vertical erection of the upper stage on top of the already-erected missile-based lower stage or stages (the first Thor-Agenas being one exception). It could be that such an approach allowed the missile portion of the launch vehicle to be erected and checked out, more or less unchanged from before as if it were still a missile, independently
of the upper stage. It might be that the U.S. had so many available launch pads at Canaveral and Vandenberg while the Soviets had fewer, larger, more-costly pads that had to be used more efficiently. It could be that the Soviets initially began performing space launches from an active ICBM launch pad, which drove them to use the more mobile, rapid response systems already in place, while the U.S. only performed space launches from modified missile *test* pads that had never been designed to handle the deployed missile erection systems. The Russian wedding of its rail-system to missile transport, compared to the U.S. use of trailered road-based transport systems, may have had an effect. Launch site weather may have played a role.
Another possibility is that while the U.S. got many of the V-2 structures, propulsion, and guidance experts out of Germany at the end of World War 2, Russia got most of the people who were best at field deployment systems, etc. V-2 missiles were exceptionally mobile for their time.
Once the U.S. started adding solid rocket motors to the launch vehicles, the vertical integration method became the preferred approach because of vehicle mass. Russian rockets are transported and erected unfueled.
U.S. solid rocket motors are, in effect, fully fueled and weigh more. An erector capable of handling a space shuttle stack, for example, would have to be as massive as the structural framing of a skyscraper.
- Ed Kyle
ed kyle - 23 May 2006 04:35 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they > both got used to? The "Moonport" history provides some details of the horizontal versus vertical decision for Saturn.
Studies showed that for low launch rates, the existing fixed pad integration methods offered the lowest cost solution. For higher launch rates, horizontal integration and transport provided the lowest cost.
"http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch4-5.html"
So, of course, NASA went with vertical integration and transport!
"http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch4-9.html"
The primary reasoning against horizontal integration seemed to be that it made it more likely that workers could damage the launch vehicle (recent shuttle orbiter processing accidents seems an example of what the they were thinking). The real reason might have been simply that NASA (especially MSFC) knew, from experience, that vertical processing worked.
- Ed Kyle
Aaron Lawrence - 23 May 2006 15:20 GMT On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the name of ed kyle exclaimed:
> The "Moonport" history provides some details of the horizontal > versus vertical decision for Saturn. Very interesting, thanks.
> So, of course, NASA went with vertical integration and transport!
:/ Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous scale with grandiose plans - to their cost.
I think your point about the solid rockets being effectively already fuelled is probably one of the biggest problems, at least for the shuttle. Another minor point in favour of liquid boosters.
Thanks Ed.
 Signature aaronl at consultant dot com For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
hop - 23 May 2006 23:53 GMT > Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous > scale with grandiose plans - to their cost. Buran re-used the transporter hardware of the N1 (much as the shuttle did with the Saturn 5)
The Buran transporter/erector is an impressive thing as is, imagine how much more so it would be had they used solid boosters.
Aaron Lawrence - 24 May 2006 16:46 GMT On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the name of hop exclaimed:
> The Buran transporter/erector is an impressive thing as is, imagine how > much more so it would be had they used solid boosters. That's the thing that really bothers me though - the Buran transport looks way cooler than the STS!
 Signature aaronl at consultant dot com For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Neil Gerace - 25 May 2006 03:55 GMT > Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous > scale with grandiose plans - to their cost. I think NASA was too, in the beginning ...
|
|
|