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Launch platform - horizontal vs vertical vehicle

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Aaron Lawrence - 21 May 2006 10:58 GMT
Hi all,

A few questions regarding launch platforms. I've read the basics I can
find about STS MLP (vertical) and the Buran-Energia platform
(horizontal), but I wonder if people could expand.

Basically I can't really see WHY the US always seems to have chosen
vertically mounted launch platforms, while the Russians/USSR often
seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they
both got used to?

So far I've found the following possible reasons for a horizontal mount
platform:

- vehicle is more stable in transit. Perhaps a benefit in rough weather
of Kazakhstan?

- can be moved more quickly. But is this significant? Whether 1 hour or
8 hours, does it really matter?

- more complexity and weight in elevating part of platform. This
probably makes the platform roughly twice as complex, but I guess the
launch platform is quite a small part of overall cost.

- for some things, easier access for assembly - but equally, for some
things it's harder. Could be a wash.

- Have to build vehicle to accept stress at 90 degrees to thrust. How
significant is this?

- The vehicle assembly area can be lower, more like a conventional
building, though still very large - actually the surface area might be
larger which might actually be more difficult to build.

Also, the STS uses tracks on a hardened road while Buran-Energia used
twin railway tracks. It seems like the railway is the more sensible
solution (known for heavy load bearing) and also allows using
conventional railway engines for propulsion. I guess there is some
hypothetical flexibility to go different places with a tracked vehicle,
but in practice it can only go on the hardened track that's pre-built.
So why ?

Thanks.

Signature

aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

Bob Haller - 21 May 2006 13:17 GMT
largely because of the terrible weather at the russian site. little
time at outdoor pad. any problems just bring it back on the rails and
repair/

probably a better system than the us with shuttles sitting outdoors for
much of their life waiting to launch.

this has caused corrosion that likely wouldnt of occured with the
vehicle in a clean room.

much nicer for workers no mosquitoes:)_

plus is a launch pad accident takes out the pad theres less to lose
since a lot more equiptement is back at the VAB equivalent.
Aaron Lawrence - 22 May 2006 11:46 GMT
On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the
name of Bob Haller exclaimed:
> probably a better system than the us with shuttles sitting outdoors for
> much of their life waiting to launch.

Yes, it seems that way to me ...

Inertia seems like a poor excuse. But I guess they were trying to save
money where they could ...

Signature

aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

Graypearl - 21 May 2006 20:21 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they
> both got used to?

<snip>

> Also, the STS uses tracks on a hardened road while Buran-Energia used
> twin railway tracks. It seems like the railway is the more sensible
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but in practice it can only go on the hardened track that's pre-built.
> So why ?

I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff ... but I can offer a few
suggestions ...

First, the current setup for assembly of the STS is left over from the
assembly of the Saturn V. That involved the assembly of a 363-foot high
monster. Also, they decided to not build a gantry for the vehicles at pads
39A and 39B, but to carry the gantry along with the Saturn V on the mobile
launch platform out to the pad. I don't think they pursued a "horizontal
transport/elevate to vertical at the pad" option for very long, if at all.

Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved
sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile launch
platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option that they
could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but I'd say a
couple of meters or so, at least). So I'm guessing that the most stable
option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle.

I daresay that others with more knowledge than I about this will correct me
if I'm wrong, but I think this is where the rationale came from. When STS
came along, it was cheaper to modify the existing infrastructure than to
build an all new setup (or at least that was how it was sold).

See if you can track down a copy of the Murray and Cox book
(http://www.apollostory.com/) if you'd like some background into where the
idea for the VAB/transport system originated.

Hope this helps.

James
Bob Haller - 22 May 2006 03:14 GMT
i believe the crushed rock lays on a asphalt base, because KSC sits
basically in a swamp
Dale - 22 May 2006 13:42 GMT
On Mon, 22 May 2006 22:48:27 +1200, Aaron Lawrence
<aaronlNOSPAM@NOSPAMconsultant.com> wrote:

>On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the
>name of Graypearl exclaimed:

>> So I'm guessing that the most stable
>> option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle.
>
>I would have thought railway tracks would be better, since they provide
>additional stiffening and smoothing of small lumps.

But a vertically transported vehicle has a smaller footprint than a
horizontal one. Perhaps using tracks is an easier way to distribute
the more concentrated load over a wider area than lots of rails and
wheels.

Dale
John Doe - 23 May 2006 06:16 GMT
Carrying a  small Soyuz rocket horizontally is fairly trivial because
the support structure is not overly complex.

Carrying the shuttle stack horizontally would require some interesting
support structures. Such a structure would not only have to support the
tank,srb,shuttle, but also be usable to lift the stack vertically AND be
able to retract from it easily.

The problem I have is the RSS being use to complete the work on the PAD,
instead of using the VAB to fully outfit the shuttle before it is moved
to the pad.

I have a question about MPLMˆ:

I assume that it must enter the launch pad with high precision in its
alignment in order to deposit the launch platform onto the pad. Looking
at the  traction mechanisms , it doesn't appear that it has a high
degree of directional manoeuvrability. How far from the pad must the
MPLM start to make final direction corrections in order to arrive at the
pad in the exact right direction and alignment ? (I assume they use
lasers for alignment ?) Or is there a dotted white line along the way
and the driver of the MPLM just aligns himself with that white line ?
Aaron Lawrence - 22 May 2006 11:48 GMT
On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the
name of Graypearl exclaimed:
> First, the current setup for assembly of the STS is left over from the
> assembly of the Saturn V. That involved the assembly of a 363-foot high
> monster.

I see ....

> Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved
> sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile launch
> platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option that they
> could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but I'd say a
> couple of meters or so, at least).

This is what I meant :)

> So I'm guessing that the most stable
> option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle.

I would have thought railway tracks would be better, since they provide
additional stiffening and smoothing of small lumps.

Thanks for your help.


Signature

aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

Jeff Findley - 22 May 2006 16:20 GMT
> Also, the road from the VAB to the pad is not "hardened," in the paved
> sense. The load of the Saturn V, along with the gantry and the mobile
> launch platform, was too much for a paved road to handle. The only option
> that they could come up with was crushed rock (I'm not sure how thick, but
> I'd say a couple of meters or so, at least). So I'm guessing that the most
> stable option to traverse that would be a tracked vehicle.

Actually, I thought that the rocks used were smooth river rock.  They do get
crushed a bit by the crawler's movement, which is expected.

Here's an Apollo 11 documnet that talks about the crawlerway (see page 66 in
the PDF, which is actually page 166 in the scanned document.
http://www-lib.ksc.nasa.gov/lib/archives/apollo/pk/APOLLO11pt2.PDF

It seems the smooth river rock layer is only the top layer and is six to
eight inches deep, depending on whether you're on a curve or straight
section of the crawlerway.  Below that relatively thin layer you have other
layers that a civil engineer would be able to deciper better than this
computer programmer with an aerospace engineering degree.  ;-)

Jeff
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ed kyle - 22 May 2006 17:38 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they
> both got used to?

Early U.S. missiles like Redstone, Atlas, Thor, and Jupiter were, just
like the USSR's R-7, designed to be transported and stored horizontally

and erected to vertical shortly before launch.  When upper stages were
first added to the U.S. missiles, most systems were designed for
vertical erection of the upper stage on top of the already-erected
missile-based lower stage or stages (the first Thor-Agenas being one
exception).  It could be that such an approach allowed the missile
portion of the launch vehicle to be erected and checked out, more or
less unchanged from before as if it were still a missile, independently

of the upper stage.  It might be that the U.S. had so many available
launch pads at Canaveral and Vandenberg while the Soviets had
fewer, larger, more-costly pads that had to be used more efficiently.
It could be that the Soviets initially began performing space launches
from an active ICBM launch pad, which drove them to use the more
mobile, rapid response systems already in place, while the U.S.
only performed space launches from modified missile *test* pads
that had never been designed to handle the deployed missile erection
systems.  The Russian wedding of its rail-system to missile transport,
compared to the U.S. use of trailered road-based transport systems,
may have had an effect.  Launch site weather may have played a role.

Another possibility is that while the U.S. got many of the V-2
structures, propulsion, and guidance experts out of Germany at the
end of World War 2, Russia got most of the people who were best
at field deployment systems, etc.  V-2 missiles were exceptionally
mobile for their time.

Once the U.S. started adding solid rocket motors to the launch
vehicles,
the vertical integration method became the preferred approach because
of vehicle mass.  Russian rockets are transported and erected unfueled.

U.S. solid rocket motors are, in effect, fully fueled and weigh more.
An erector capable of handling a space shuttle stack, for example,
would have to be as massive as the structural framing of a skyscraper.

- Ed Kyle
ed kyle - 23 May 2006 04:35 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> seemed to choose horizontal mount with elevation. Is it just what they
> both got used to?

The "Moonport" history provides some details of the horizontal
versus vertical decision for Saturn.

Studies showed that for low launch rates, the existing fixed pad
integration methods offered the lowest cost solution.  For higher
launch rates, horizontal integration and transport provided the
lowest cost.

"http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch4-5.html"

So, of course, NASA went with vertical integration and transport!

"http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch4-9.html"

The primary reasoning against horizontal integration seemed to
be that it made it more likely that workers could damage the
launch vehicle (recent shuttle orbiter processing accidents
seems an example of what the they were thinking).  The real
reason might have been simply that NASA (especially MSFC)
knew, from experience, that vertical processing worked.

- Ed Kyle
Aaron Lawrence - 23 May 2006 15:20 GMT
On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the
name of ed kyle exclaimed:
> The "Moonport" history provides some details of the horizontal
> versus vertical decision for Saturn.

Very interesting, thanks.

> So, of course, NASA went with vertical integration and transport!

:/

Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous
scale with grandiose plans - to their cost.

I think your point about the solid rockets being effectively already
fuelled is probably one of the biggest problems, at least for the
shuttle. Another minor point in favour of liquid boosters.

Thanks Ed.

Signature

aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

hop - 23 May 2006 23:53 GMT
> Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous
> scale with grandiose plans - to their cost.

Buran re-used the transporter hardware of the N1 (much as the shuttle
did with the Saturn 5)

The Buran transporter/erector is an impressive thing as is, imagine how
much more so it would be had they used solid boosters.
Aaron Lawrence - 24 May 2006 16:46 GMT
On a pleasant day while strolling in sci.space.shuttle, a person by the
name of hop exclaimed:
> The Buran transporter/erector is an impressive thing as is, imagine how
> much more so it would be had they used solid boosters.

That's the thing that really bothers me though - the Buran transport
looks way cooler than the STS!

Signature

aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

Neil Gerace - 25 May 2006 03:55 GMT
> Yes, whereas I guess with Buran the Soviets were thinking on an enormous
> scale with grandiose plans - to their cost.

I think NASA was too, in the beginning ...
 
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