When We Finally Step Foot on Mars!
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jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 03:37 GMT What will we find? Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence The explanations for our minds? Will we find 'the riches' That save all of mankind? These secrets and these riches We cannot find them here Either with our hands or minds So they must be over there Distance is the secret to these discoveries Farthest from Earth is hiding All these mysteries If only the universe had an end And we could stand there, looking back Then God would reveal his plan to us And Earth would be perfect again If distance equals wisdom Then maybe we should run Away from Earth with all due haste Never looking back
Jonathan
s
Brian Gaff - 20 Nov 2005 11:24 GMT Got any of whatever you just took, left at all?
Brian
 Signature Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> What will we find? > Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > s Bob Haller - 20 Nov 2005 12:35 GMT many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before someone actually stands on the planet.
I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be lucky if they are involved at all...:(
JazzMan - 20 Nov 2005 14:44 GMT > many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before > someone actually stands on the planet. > > I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be > lucky if they are involved at all...:( We can always be a subcontractor for the Chinese, maybe they'll throw us a bone and all. Maybe they'll even let one of our astronauts tag along on a trip or two.
JazzMan
 Signature ********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry **********************************************************
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 16:33 GMT > many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before > someone actually stands on the planet. Quite right I believe. In fact I feel that Opportunity has already made the big discovery. Those spheres on Mars are the answer to our existence. A entity that is exactly equal measures of geology and life. The chemical structure is all geology, and the self-similar physical structure is all life.
It's no wonder the debate rages on between the two camps. It's because both have equally good arguments for their side. Just like Viking and the meteorite ahl840001, another tie between the two camps. One tie after another.
That is a clue.
A clue that this is more than just life, but the very first transition from geology to life.
First Life.
And we can't see it, because the qualities of First Life are a maximum level of uncertainty. Where proof is not to be found by either side. It's in this most dramatic of all discoveries where our testable, rigorous science fails us.
We have only our eyes and minds....logical methods ...left.
We seem to think these grand answers can only be found by traveling, the farther away the more likely they'll be found. If distance equals wisdom, what name should we call Earth? Should ignorance be her new name, or is that name reserved for us?
Jonathan
"The going from a world we know To one a wonder still Is like the child's adversity Whose vista is a hill, Behind the hill is sorcery And everything unknown, But will the secret compensate For climbing it alone?"
By E Dickinson
The consensus is quickly growing that the blueberries are life.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/183/1P144429148EFF3370P2542L5M1.JPG
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005) PROCESSES OF FORMATION OF SPHEROIDAL CONCRETIONS AND INFERENCES FOR "BLUEBERRIES" IN MERIDIANI PLANUM SEDIMENTS.
"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps or bands of cement not spheroids. Spheroidal nodular concretions on Earth result from spherical diffusion of products of diagenetic reactions involving organic" http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf
DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS?
.Second Conference on Early Mars (2004) 8063.pdf
2) One of the more intriguing terrestrial analogues which may follow the creation of such organo-metallic entities is the possibility that the blueberries found by the Mars Rover team are similar to terrestrial concretions which are almost all nucleated around an organic/biological residue core. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdf
The Stromatolites of Stella Maris, Bahamas http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html
EnduranceCrater http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/111/1N138039382EFF2600P1986R0M1.HTML http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/104/tn/1P137418221EFF2208P2360L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j pg.html
Opportunity micro images http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m014.html http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/105/1M137503553EFF2208P2956M2M1.HTML
Compare the delicate erosion shown in the ..../shadows/...of each This dates water flow on Mars are recent, meaning ongoing to this day.
Yellowstone mudpot. http://www.nps.gov/yell/slidefile/thermalfeatures/mudpots/midwaylower/Images/054 02.jpg
Endurance mudpot http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2004-07-16/1P143185259EFF322 1P2397R1M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/171/1N143374382EFF3300P1921L0M1.JPG
Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures
Conclusion: "Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/171/1N143374382EFF3300P1921L0M1.JPG
"It is this common association of microbes and iron deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host for microorganisms that might have been associated with their formation [8]." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf
Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars
"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures (Christensen et al., 2000)." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf
NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!
"To make a long story short (I shall over-simplify for sake of brevity), there is increasing evidence of the function of bacteria in rock-forming and even in some sand-forming processes (wherein bacteria serve to nucleate the growth of small silicate crystals). On Earth, in formation of spherical concretions, bacterial colonies and/or other organic matter infused with bacteria nucleate crystalline silica growth. I suspect it would likewise be the case where Mars was wet over extended periods."
"In the wet, mushy or 'muddy' environment, the resulting micro- concretion slowly grows (sometimes incorporating or encapsulating adjacent grains of silt or sand, sometimes simply by crystalline growth from colloidally suspended silica crystallizing and pushing adjacent silt ahead of its growth, sometimes by a combination of the two processes), increasing its diameter spherically across time. If conditions for the bacterial colony's growth are episodic, one can sometimes see (upon slicing the concretion) rather distinct concentric layers of growth that formed the concretion, but where conditions for growth are constant, the concretion may show a crystalline pattern with virtually no concentric layering." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m03-035.shtml
Notice the concentric layering of the sphere in the lower left http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/106/1M137593860EFF2208P2956M2M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130762321EFF0454P2953M2M1.JPG http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/086/1M135817872EFF1407P2936M2M1.JPG http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130760017EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML
And peruse the titles of the papers presented in the last astrobiology conference. I'm in the process of reviewing them all, so far I've found .....only one...that says the blueberries can be explained by non-living processes. And guess who authored that paper???? Steve Squyres the head of the Rover science team....a geologist.
The only person that still clings to the notion the spheres are not life is the guy in charge. A geologist that would have to pass the brass ring elsewhere if they ...are life.
A serious conflict of interest. Are there no investigative journalists left in science? Hell will freeze over before Nasa gives us the true picture.
Monday, March 14, 2005 ASTROBIOLOGY I: MARS, METHANE, MINERALS, AND MISSIONS Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005) sess02.pdf http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/sess02.pdf
Tuesday, March 15, 2005 ASTROBIOLOGY II: MICROBES, MISSIONS, AND EARLY TERRESTRIAL LIFE 8:30 a.m. Salon C http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/sess13.pdf
PROGRAM 36th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference March 14-18, 2005 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/program.pdf
s
> I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be > lucky if they are involved at all...:( George - 20 Nov 2005 18:41 GMT >> many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before >> someone actually stands on the planet. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > geology and life. The chemical structure is all geology, and > the self-similar physical structure is all life. Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny. It is making you delusional.
<snip>
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 20:38 GMT > Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny. It is making you delusional. Well then the folks at Cal Tech and JPL are delusional too when they wrote this about the spheres....
"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps or bands of cement not spheroids Spheroidal nodular concretions on Earth result from spherical diffusion of products of diagenetic reactions involving organics" http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf
You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released. And the whole sponge gemmule thingy, well, I'm not embarrassed by that mistake, quite the opposite. A sponge gemmule is the reproductive pod of the very first and simplest two celled metazoan. Such a reproductive pod should take on the form of the life from which it evolved. Which would be bacteria. A bacterial concretion and a sponge gemmule should be quite alike. In fact I believe the two are just one tick from each other on the evolutionary path. Which means a gemmule would be as close to correct as possible, without being correct.
Missed by ...that much. (holding fingers closely together)
Sphere http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130671782EFF0454P2953M2M1.HTML Gemmule http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plfeb96.htm#gemmules
Here's a post of mine below from a year and a half ago. It's pretty much the same one I'm posting now, except now I can include recent research that supports the same conclusions. You just can't believe someone without a clue about geology, chemistry or biology can figure it out it faster then the pros. But I had the advantage on them, complexity science, it's that good. It teaches you how to figure things out quickly, and across all disciplines.
Dynamics of complex systems, full online text. http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/ ...................................................................................... ............
Friday, June 04, 2004
The Stromatalites of Stella Maris, Bahamas http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html
Endurance Crater http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/111/1N138039382EFF2600P1986R0M1.HTML http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG
Microbolites in the Geologic Record
"Whereas internal morphology indicates the accretionary nature of stromatolite growth,the external morphology of stromatolites can be used to infer hydrological conditions in the environment in which the stromatolites grew. For instance, in still-water environments, stromatolites will approximate a flat sheet, while in more turbulent environments the stromatolites will consist of interlinked domes or columns, with flat, linking mats between them." http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/newstrom.htm
Introduction
"At all scales of observation, problems often arise when trying to distinguish between biological and inorganic features in the ancient rock record. Stromatolites, defined as laminated biosedimentary fabrics formed by the trapping and binding of sediments and/or precipitation of minerals by microorganisms (Walter 1977), are sometimes impossible to distinguish from finely laminated sediments formed by inorganic processes" http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/taphon.pdf
Endurance finely layered rock http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/123/1P139114820EFF2815P2532R1M1.JPG
Opportunity microscopic images http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/105/1M137503553EFF2208P2956M2M1.HTML http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/106/1M137593860EFF2208P2956M2M1.JPG
Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan biosystems from inert structures
"Conclusion: Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and biological/biogeochemical principles." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf
Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars
"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures (Christensen et al., 2000)." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf
Hydrothermal Systems: Doorways to Early Biosphere Evolution
ABSTRACT "Hydrothermal systems may have provided favorable environments for the prebiotic synthesis of organic compounds necessary for life and may also have been a site for life's origin . They could also have provided a refuge for thermophilic (heat-loving) microorganisms during late, giant-impact events. Phylogenetic information encoded in the genomes of extant thermophiles provides important clues about this early period of biosphere development that are broadly consistent with geological evidence for Archean environments . Hydrothermal environments often exhibit high rates of mineralization, which favors microbial fossilization." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/gsa.pdf
The State and Future of Mars Polar Science and Exploration
"The recent identification of putative shorelines in the northern plains suggests that the water from these events may have contributed to one or more ice-covered lakes or seas that may have collectively covered as much as a third of the planet . These, and other lines of evidence, suggest that Mars is water-rich and may store the equivalent of a global ocean of water » 0.5-1 km deep as ground ice and groundwater within its crust (Carr 1987)."
"Whether the early climate was warm or cold, the presence of abundant water on the surface has profound implications for the development of life. Indeed, given the intense impact and volcanic activity that characterized the planet at this time, the development of long-lived hydrothermal systems was likely widespread- duplicating many of the important conditions that are thought to have given rise to life on Earth (Farmer 1996)." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/marspolarsci.pdf
Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars
"In microbial communities, organisms exist in a common EPS ("slime") matrix. These materials hold great taphonomic importance because they can control aspects of the chemical microenvironments that promote early diagenetic mineralization, a key factor in microbial fossilization (Farmer, 1999). EPS is known to bind a wide variety of metals in- cluding Pb, Sr, Zn, Cd, Co, Cu, Mn, Mg, Fe, Ag, and Ni (Decho, 1990, and references therein)."
"The concentration of these metals above background levels presents an interesting possibility for the detection of organisms even after organic mate- rials have been degraded (Farmer, 1999; Conrad and Nealson, 2001)." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf
TAPHONOMIC MODES IN MICROBIAL FOSSILIZATION
"In conjunction with other types of chemofossil evidence (e.g., isotopes and organic biomarker compounds), spatial distributions of trace metals that are comparable in pattern and scale to microbial cells and biofilms may provide additional evidence for biogenicity . And through an improved understanding of the varied role(s) played by trase elements in modern microbial processes, we may eventually be able to extract paleobiological information from rocks even where primary organic materials have been completely degraded and lost."
A Mossbauer investigation of iron-rich terrestrial hydrothermal vent systems: Lessons for Mars exploration
"While a high-temperature origin for terrestrial life is still debatable, the high biological productivity and rapid mineralization that are typical of thermal spring environments make them particularly favorable places for the preservation of a microbial fossil record. For this reason, hydrothermal deposits are regarded as important targets in the exploration for fossil evidence of ancient Martian life"
"Among the stated capabilities of the Mossbauer instrument is the ability to detect "nanophase and amorphous hydrothermal Fe minerals that could preserve biological materials" (S.W. Squyres, http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/athena/mossbauer.html, 1998a). Terrestrial hydrothermal springs, including deep-sea vents, harbor complex ecosystems that have evolved based on nutri- ents and energy supplied by the vent effluent. Importantly, land-based spring systems also include photosynthetic (cya- nobacterial) species. Previously, we reported results of a Mossbauer investigation of samples (collected by J. C. Alt) from submarine hydrothermal vents ("black smokers") in an area of the East Pacific Rise [Agresti et al., 19941. The iron- rich minerals were shown by scanning electron microscopy (SEM) to be associated with bacterial filaments [Alt, 19881." http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/mossbauer.pdf
4. Siderite as a Component of an Ancient Stromatolite
"Mossbauer spectra at two temperatures of a freshly slabbed portion of a 2.09 Ga (Early Proterozoic) hematic chert stro- matolite from the Gunflint Iron Formation (PPRG 2443) are shown in Figure 26. The high-velocity ferrous peak migrates from its position at 100 K to overlap the fifth peak of hematite at 19 K. This behavior and the agreement of the splitting pa- rameters with those of siderite argue that this sample contains a small fraction of siderite. (dominant siderite peak at -1090 cm-I). The sample investigated was freshly slabbed for the Mossbauer transmission measurement, so the iron carbonate is interior to the native stromatolite rock. Its occurrence in this 2.09 Ga old rock in- dicates that long (billion-year) survival times for siderite are possible when preserved in silica."
(Fig 26 page 15, please compare with blueberry bowl chart for siderite signature) http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/mossbauer.pdf
A Bowl of Hematite-Rich 'Berries' Mar 18, 2004
"This graph shows two spectra of outcrop regions near the Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity's landing site. The blue line shows data for a region dubbed "Berry Bowl," which contains a handful of the sphere-like grains dubbed "blueberries."
Blueberry chart http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/mar-18-2004/captions/image-19.html
GROUNDWATER-FED IRON-RICH MICROBIAL MATS IN A FRESHWATER CREEK: GROWTH CYCLES AND FOSSILIZATION POTENTIAL OF MICROBIAL FEATURES.
"It is this common association of microbes and iron deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host for microorganisms that might have been associated with their formation [8]." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf
NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!
"To make a long story short (I shall over-simplify for sake of brevity), there is increasing evidence of the function of bacteria in rock-forming and even in some sand-forming processes (wherein bacteria serve to nucleate the growth of small silicate crystals). On Earth, in formation of spherical concretions, bacterial colonies and/or other organic matter infused with bacteria nucleate crystalline silica growth. I suspect it would likewise be the case where Mars was wet over extended periods."
"In the wet, mushy or 'muddy' environment, the resulting micro- concretion slowly grows (sometimes incorporating or encapsulating adjacent grains of silt or sand, sometimes simply by crystalline growth from colloidally suspended silica crystallizing and pushing adjacent silt ahead of its growth, sometimes by a combination of the two processes), increasing its diameter spherically across time. If conditions for the bacterial colony's growth are episodic, one can sometimes see (upon slicing the concretion) rather distinct concentric layers of growth that formed the concretion, but where conditions for growth are constant, the concretion may show a crystalline pattern with virtually no concentric layering." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m03-035.shtml
..................................
There are abundant locations on Mars to search for water, but hematite further reduces the search to areas likely to have underground water or hot springs. And to areas showing ideal conditions for life and fossil preservation.
They have found everything they could have expected at Meridiani. The Big Clue is that the hematite is concentrated in the spheres, yet little is in the soil.
The question now is whether Nasa is simply being conservative by dramatically downplaying the capabilities and discoveries of this mission. Or if they are willing to let the mission end as is as a hedge to insure the coveted sample return mission.
For Nasa to hide the discovery of extraterrestrial life would be the 'Biggest Lie' in the history of science! Galileo v. The Holy Inquisition would be a minor travesty in comparison. Such infamous history should not be allowed to repeat itself.
Nasa should not be allowed to have a Vatican-like grip on such ...universal... Discovery.
Contrary to popular opinion, we still live in the Dark Ages.
Jonathan
s
> <snip> George - 21 Nov 2005 04:14 GMT >> Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny. It is making you delusional. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions > since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released. No, actually I think you are nuts because you insist that the Spehrules on Mars (the so-called blueberries) are Martian "sponges".
But your insanity aside, the above paper states very clearly:
"The most relevant to this discussion are ferric iron reduction and sulphate reduction, both of which are significant in forming concretions on earth and may have been relevant on Mars (but may not have been microbial)." Organics can mean anything, Johnny. For instance, volcanically derived methane is organic. On earth, there is clearly an association with many types of concretion and some form of microbiological activity. There are also many concretions that are not associated with microbiological activity with regard to their diagenesis. There is no reason to assume that concretions formed from diagenetic reactions involving microbes occurred on Mars when there is no independant evidence to support such a contention, and when an abiotic solution works just as well in explaining their origin.
Referring to the paper, above, it concludes:
"If organic matter had been present in the acidic and oxydized sediment then it could have acted as a focus for a redox reaction that could have produced a reduced Iron mineral phase, for example an iron sulphide, or carbonate. This does not imply a microbial process, but such reactions are very much slower in the absence of microbial mediation."
Umm, first of all, the blueberries are composed of hematite, not iron sulphide (pyrite or marcasite). So why they go off on this tangent about pyrite formation is a mystery. Secondly. there is no evidence for carbonates in association with the blueberries. Third, since the blueberries are hematite and not carbonate or iron sulphide, this entire argument is quite beside the point. Fourth, even if these nodules were composed of pyrite and not hematite, their comparison with Jurassic pyrite-rimmed carbonate nodules is poor. The Jurassic nodule is orders of magnitude larger than the blueberries on Mars, is composed of carbonate (which hasn't been detected at Eridiani nor at the Spirit site), and has a notable pyrite reaction rim around it that is absent with the Martian blueberries. In fact, I've yet to see one single reaction rim around any Martian blueberry. They make the point that without microbial mediation, "such reactions are much slower". It is significant to note that no organics have been either directly or indirectly identified associated with the Martian blueberries. The Jurassic carbonate nodule with the pyrite reaction rim is rather large, and may have been the result of iron reduction in association with microbial action in a carbonate-rich solution. In that case, the nodule likely grew relatively rapidly until the carbonate and iron in solution was depleted. Note that the blueberries (which are composed of hematite, not pyrite), contain no carbonate or known organic material, have no pyrite reaction rings, are very small, and so in the absense of microbial action, would be expected not to attain very significant sizes at all since that would require a significant amount of time to attain any size larger than what we see on the Martian surface. But then again, since the Martian blueberries are not composed of iron sulphide, or carbonate, none of this discussion about pyrite formation in association with organics is truly relevant to Martian blueberries in the first place.
lifeform1@atlantic.net - 21 Nov 2005 04:31 GMT > > You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres > > life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions > > since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released. > > No, actually I think you are nuts because you insist that the Spehrules on > Mars (the so-called blueberries) are Martian "sponges". No, what he actually did, was 'propose' that the spherules very remarkably resembled the fossilized remains of spongelike 'gemmules', the reproductive cysts of sponges, and that the 'sponges' might very well be organized extremophile bacteria (a la Rio Tinto), in accordance to the information that we had at the time, which was two weeks after Opportunity landed.
At the time, it was a brilliant piece of research, something you can never hope to achieve.
Whether or not spherule formation is biochemically mediated still remains to be demonstrated, but it is still very much on the table.
jonathan - 21 Nov 2005 21:34 GMT > > > You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres > > > life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > well be organized extremophile bacteria (a la Rio Tinto), in accordance > to the information that we had at the time, which was two weeks after> Opportunity landed.
And if I remember correctly, I said if they were gemmules then they should only be associated with the outcrops. When the rover moved out of the crater into the fields, and the spheres were everywhere, it was obvious another explanation was needed. I was dumbfounded, I was so sure they were gemmules.
But later I realized the mistake. The spheres were much larger in size than anything I'd seen involving microbes, so I assumed that they must be at least two-celled life. But complexity science is clear that life is self similar across scale, so scale shouldn't be a primary consideration. My assumption made scale a primary issue....oh well.
It's important to keep in mind the type of process complexity science uses. It's a top down or a systems approach. Which is like a search engine, it's meant to very quickly narrow the search space close to the correct answer. It's not really meant to find the precise answer, that comes from the myriad details. Which is why I love this approach so much, it's quickly and easily gets you the basic answer to a very complex real world problem. You can find out what you want without being trained in all the myriad disciplines to figure out what's going on.
But when you decide to actually build or prove something, to apply it, then the detailed knowledge of the discipline at hand is needed. But at that point it's really just grunt work. You have the basic answer already and can minimize the detailed knowledge needed to apply it
Jonathan
s
> At the time, it was a brilliant piece of research, something you can > never hope to achieve. > > Whether or not spherule formation is biochemically mediated still > remains to be demonstrated, but it is still very much on the table. jonathan - 21 Nov 2005 22:20 GMT > >> Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny. It is making you delusional. > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > earth and may have been relevant on Mars (but may not have been > microbial)." But on earth iron deposits are almost always associated with bacteria. You keep choosing the least likely explanation by far to limit them to abiotic. With the spheres it's necessary to do that over and over to limit their source to the non living. Doing that quickly increases the complexity of the explanation and it becomes a contrivance.
> Organics can mean anything, Johnny. For instance, > volcanically derived methane is organic. On earth, there is clearly an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to support such a contention, and when an abiotic solution works just as > well in explaining their origin. An abiotic explanation does not at all explain them just as well. The spheres show a massive self similarity in shape, size and in particular the single aperture and off-center slash. And they do so in very different environments. Abiotic concretions are highly dependent on the environment. Different water flow, different size cracks in the rocks, different soil chemistry and on and on. The concretions will differ in size shape and they will not show the same ...asymmetrical...features. Round yes, but a single hole in the top over and over?
No way!
Which this recent paper addresses.
DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS?
.Second Conference on Early Mars (2004) 8063.pdf
2) One of the more intriguing terrestrial analogues which may follow the creation of such organo-metallic entities is the possibility that the blueberries found by the Mars Rover team are similar to terrestrial concretions which are almost all nucleated around an organic/biological residue core. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdf
> Referring to the paper, above, it concludes: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > sulphide (pyrite or marcasite). So why they go off on this tangent about > pyrite formation is a mystery. Because that's how organic matter turns into hematite.
Long after these creatures were buried, iron sulfide filled their cavities, duplicating fine details in all their parts. After the Cretaceous seas withdrew, weathering processes acted on the pyrite, converting it to limonite, and ultimately hematite. http://www.fossilnews.com/1998/rufesnow2.html
>Secondly. there is no evidence for > carbonates in association with the blueberries. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > association with organics is truly relevant to Martian blueberries in the > first place. jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 15:50 GMT > Got any of whatever you just took, left at all? Not by the time you read this post
> Brian ______________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
> > What will we find? > > Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > > s Pat Flannery - 20 Nov 2005 22:54 GMT >What will we find? > Rust.
Pat
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 23:07 GMT > >What will we find? > > Rust. That's right, from all the hematite/iron deposits all over the surface. The conditions on Mars would be most suitable for sulfate reducing bacteria and the like. Guess what those kinds of bacteria leave behind?
Iron/hematite deposits.
Mars is red from all the bacteria that's graced it's surface for eons. We can see evidence of life on Mars by walking out in our back yards and just looking up. On a hazy night, without even using glasses, the evidence of life on Mars is easy to see.
"It is this common association of microbes and iron deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host for microorganisms that might have been associated with their formation [8]." http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf
Jonathan
s
> Pat George - 21 Nov 2005 04:36 GMT >> >What will we find? >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > s You should read these reports:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1276.pdf
http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/mars.press.release.10.2000.html
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm04/fm04-sessions/fm04_P13B.html
Aqueous Processes on Mars: Results From the Mars Exploration Rover Mission
* Squyres, S W (squyres@astro.cornell.edu) , Cornell University, Space Sciences Building, Ithaca, NY 14853 United States
The Mars Exploration Rovers Spirit and Opportunity have both yielded evidence for aqueous processes at their landing sites. In Gusev crater, Spirit found only trace evidence for the action of water on the basalt-covered plains of the crater floor. This water action left thin salt-rich deposits on the surfaces of rocks and in fractures within rocks, and what appear to be magnesium sulfate salt concentrations in soils. The older rocks in the Columbia Hills, however, show evidence for much more substantial aqueous alteration. At Meridiani Planum, Opportunity has found layered sedimentary rocks that we interpret to be "dirty" evaporites. Environmental conditions that they record include episodic inundation by shallow surface water, evaporation and desiccation. After deposition, these rocks underwent a complex diagenetic history that resulted in recrystallization, vug formation, and growth of hematite-rich concretions. A stratigraphic section obtained within Endurance crater shows significant variation of rock chemistry and texture as a function of depth, indicating changes in depositional and/or diagenetic processes with time.
Bob Haller - 21 Nov 2005 12:10 GMT Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other planets too.
Oh sorry I forgot science has been largely scrapped to keep the shuttle jobs program going:(
Even ISS science has been tossed:(:(:(
jonathan - 22 Nov 2005 03:31 GMT > Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other > planets too. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Even ISS science has been tossed:(:(:( The ISS science mission has been changed to study long duration space flight. The whole microgravity thingy that was supposed to change the world has been abandoned.. And since the station is in the wrong orbit, it can't support the missions to the Moon or Mars.
I guess they should've thought out the reasons for building it a bit better eh? Instead of just building it and figuring the purpose will be found ....later.
Kinda like what we're doing now with the whole to the Moon and Mars goal.. If we build it 'they' will come. " They" being a purpose for the whole effort.
Pity history is repeating itself....aint it? Oh well, it's just another twenty years and a few hundred billion down the tubes.
No biggee.
Jonathan
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John Thingstad - 23 Nov 2005 00:28 GMT >> Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other >> planets too. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > s I find the idea of mining and manufacturing on the moon to be a good idea. 1/6 th of earth gravity makes it ideal for getting large payloads into space. A program that more explicitly stated and planned this would be preferable. Nevertheless I suspect the 'extra' tonnes of payload allowed for the heavy launch vehicle (125 tonnes) seems sufficient to send simple assemblies to the moon. Perhaps using two launches one for payload and another for lunar injection and landing rockets. I like the flexibility of the currently planned system. Plus for once their goals seems realistic considering their budget. Whether congress approves it.. That's another story.
Still a base with manufacturing capabilities seems like a good first step for continued manned exploration of the solar system.
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jonathan - 23 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT > I find the idea of mining and manufacturing on the moon to be a good > idea. 1/6 th of earth gravity makes it ideal for getting large payloads [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a good first step for continued manned exploration of > the solar system. That's how I understand the program, to build capabilities on the Moon to move on to Mars. But the same question applies to going to Mars. How will the people benefit from establishing bases on Mars?
Don't get me wrong. Since I was a kid the space program has been a source of fascination and inspiration. My opposition to this new long term goal is in the disappointment of it's limited vision. Which I feel will doom it's success. Limited goals with vague tangible benefits means limited funding and achievements.
The logic for creating this long term goal is backwards.
This goal is built around the notion that if it's maximized wrt pure exploration, that the tangible benefits will eventually follow with an equal magnitude. One after the other, this is a linear approach. It maximizes inspiration to generate maximum benefits later.
This means only those already disposed to be inspired by such a vision will be effected. Those that look to tangible benefits, those not likely to support it, are left empty handed. This minimized the effect the goal has. No new supporters are generated.
But if we reverse this, guess what happens?
If the goal is built around maximizing the tangible benefits first, a lofty goal meant to solve one of our most important problems on Earth. Then the goal immediately generates an equal measure of inspiration. Not one after the other, but both realms are invoked at the same time, a cyclic process is established. And those most inspired by the possibilities for improving the human condition are inspired...first. Those not now likely to support a massive program are brought on board first.
This maximizes support for the program. It maximizes the good that will flow from the effort.
If Nasa were to propose a long term goal such as reducing our dependence on fossil fuels with a program like this....
Space Solar Power Home http://spacesolarpower.nasa.gov/
How many people not now on board would it effect? A future with clean cheap energy! Environmentalists concerned with global warming, ozone depletion, and pollution. Those concerned most about social justice would spring to the idea of a future with energy becoming cheaper and more available for everyone over time. Instead of the reverse. Those concerned about our dependence on Middle East oil. Those that oppose wars over oil. And that's just the obvious.
America could become the world's largest energy supplier someday.
Imagine that!
Such a lofty...tangible..goal would immediately inspire. Both realms invoked ...at once. It would take on a life of it's own, support would be assured across administrations, political ideology and even generations.
The current long range goal suffers from a simple frame of reference mistake. Those trained in math and physics must certainly understand such a basic mistake carries through.
Reverse this mistake and we go from a linear plan that minimizes the effects on others and public support, to one that establishes a working system that maximizes support.
I can't believe people smart enough, clever enough, and resourceful enough to put people on the Moon cannot understand this simple mistake. And it's disastrous consequences, not only for Nasa, but for the future of this planet.
A Trekkian Utopia is built around unlimited energy.
Post Apocalyptic nightmares are sparked by conflict over diminishing resources.
I know which future I want.
Jonathan
s
Joe Strout - 21 Nov 2005 15:59 GMT > What will we find? The same things the robotic rovers have found, at least initially.
> Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence No.
> The explanations for our minds? Certainly not.
> Will we find 'the riches' > That save all of mankind? No.
> These secrets and these riches > We cannot find them here > Either with our hands or minds > So they must be over there Where? This is email, we can't see where you're pointing.
> Distance is the secret to these discoveries > Farthest from Earth is hiding > All these mysteries No, I'd say the "explanations for our minds," for example, is to be found in the neuroscience labs right here on Earth (great strides have been made in that direction already -- just don't ask about sleep). The riches (energy resources) that save all of mankind are to be found either on Earth or in cislunar space. And of course what you might mean by "the secrets to our existence" is anyone's guess. But try the philosophy department of your nearest university.
So your assertion has absolutely no basis in fact as far as I can see. You're just making stuff up.
> If only the universe had an end > And we could stand there, looking back > Then God would reveal his plan to us > And Earth would be perfect again ...Right. I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup. Go find a religion group to hang out in. These groups start with "sci" which is an abbreviation of "science." Mysticism is not welcome here.
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| Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: | | joe@strout.net http://www.macwebdir.com | `------------------------------------------------------------------'
lifeform1@atlantic.net - 21 Nov 2005 17:22 GMT > ...Right. I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup. Go find a > religion group to hang out in. These groups start with "sci" which is > an abbreviation of "science." Mysticism is not welcome here. Great, another usenet cop. It must be the steroids.
Eric Chomko - 23 Nov 2005 18:33 GMT : > ...Right. I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup. Go find a : > religion group to hang out in. These groups start with "sci" which is : > an abbreviation of "science." Mysticism is not welcome here.
: Great, another usenet cop. It must be the steroids. Actually mysticism and other forms of BS are tolerated on science newsgroups, or at least should be; but don't expect folks not to shoot holes in it (i.e debunk the crap).
Eric
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 21:35 GMT >Actually mysticism and other forms of BS are tolerated on science >newsgroups, or at least should be; but don't expect folks not to shoot >holes in it (i.e debunk the crap). > Yeah, if the idea is far-out enough, it's actually fun to read...you know, like profitable SSTO designs. ;-)
Pat
Pat Flannery - 21 Nov 2005 21:21 GMT >>Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence >> > >No. Ah, come on! I saw this movie about a trip to Mars, and they found this underground room that had a map of the solar system in it, and a hologram of an Alien Gray appeared, and, and.... ....later, it all turned out to be just a dream Governor Schwarzenegger was having... :-)
Pat
Eric Chomko - 23 Nov 2005 18:52 GMT : >>Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence : >> : > : >No.
: Ah, come on! I saw this movie about a trip to Mars, and they found this : underground room that had a map of the solar system in it, and a : hologram of an Alien Gray appeared, and, and.... : ....later, it all turned out to be just a dream Governor Schwarzenegger : was having... :-) I total recall this, wasn't there this nice looking, atheltic brunette that looked like Mercedes Ruehl from the Fisher King with Arnie?
Eric
: Pat Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT >I total recall this, wasn't there this nice looking, atheltic brunette >that looked like Mercedes Ruehl from the Fisher King with Arnie? > Uh-huh! And they dropped Governor Schwarzenegger onto the Martian surface inside of a thing with airbags on it, but there were these killer robots there that had been sent to terraform the planet and gone crazy, and later Arnold met up with this monkey and an alien slave worker, and they were chased all over by this bat-rat-spider thing until this head in a glass ball offered them a ride back to Earth, and they landed in this sand pit near a little boy's house, and then the Martians implanted things in the little boy's family's necks that turned them into Scientologists...but they got away, and there was this train that was all of fire, and the little girl freaked out because she thought Arnold was going to kill her, but it turned out Arnold was good now, and had been reprogramed by the Martians to be a Compassionate Conservative, and help protect her until she could bear a child in the future that would help fight Predators, and then the bad Martians came flying at them on winged beasts, but the Scientology wife hacked the head Martian's winged beast's head off with this sword that had been found in the grave of an Atlantian Admiral, and Arnold took the evil Martian and nailed it to The Tree Of Woe, but it turned into a snake and tried to kill him, like it had his parents....but just then Danny DeVito came along and revealed that he was Arnold's twin brother and he then became Governor Of California, and...I forget the rest. :-)
Pat
Du - 22 Nov 2005 23:28 GMT > What will we find? > Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Jonathan Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s will be long dead when the first man sets foot on Mars. Damn. Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon.
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT >Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s Me, for instance.
> will be long dead >when the first man sets foot on Mars. Damn. >Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon. > > "I'm not dead....I'm feeling better!" :-D
Pat
jonathan - 23 Nov 2005 03:32 GMT > > Jonathan > Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s will be long dead > when the first man sets foot on Mars. Damn. It's already happened! Not quite footprints, but close enough. http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/088/tn/1P135997140EFF1413P2285L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j pg.html
I've watched every foot of Opportunity's four mile walk across Meridiani. I feel like I know every inch like my own backyard.
> Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon. The Moon is nothing compared to the spectacular views at Meridiani. http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/mer/opportunity/036/1P131371178EFF0500P2275L5M 1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/104/tn/1P137418221EFF2208P2360L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j pg.html
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