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When We Finally Step Foot on Mars!

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jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 03:37 GMT
What will we find?
Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
The explanations for our minds?
Will we find 'the riches'
That save all of mankind?
These secrets and these riches
We cannot find them here
Either with our hands or minds
So they must be over there
Distance is the secret to these discoveries
Farthest from Earth is hiding
All these mysteries
If only the universe had an end
And we could stand there, looking back
Then God would reveal his plan to us
And Earth would be perfect again
If distance equals wisdom
Then maybe we should run
Away from Earth with all due haste
Never looking back

Jonathan

s
Brian Gaff - 20 Nov 2005 11:24 GMT
Got any of whatever you just took, left at all?

Brian

Signature

Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

> What will we find?
> Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> s
Bob Haller - 20 Nov 2005 12:35 GMT
many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before
someone actually stands on the planet.

I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be
lucky if they are involved at all...:(
JazzMan - 20 Nov 2005 14:44 GMT
> many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before
> someone actually stands on the planet.
>
> I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be
> lucky if they are involved at all...:(

We can always be a subcontractor for the Chinese, maybe
they'll throw us a bone and all. Maybe they'll even let
one of our astronauts tag along on a trip or two.

JazzMan
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jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 16:33 GMT
> many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before
> someone actually stands on the planet.

Quite right I believe. In fact I feel that Opportunity has already
made the big discovery. Those spheres on Mars are the answer
to our existence. A entity that is exactly equal measures of
geology and life. The chemical structure is all geology, and
the self-similar physical structure is all life.

It's no wonder the debate rages on between the two camps.
It's because both have equally good arguments for their side.
Just like Viking and the meteorite ahl840001, another tie between
the two camps. One tie after another.

That is a clue.

A clue that this is more than just life, but the very first
transition from geology to life.

First Life.

And we can't see it, because the qualities of First Life
are a maximum level of uncertainty. Where proof is
not to be found by either side. It's in this most dramatic
of all discoveries where our testable, rigorous science
fails us.

We have only our eyes and minds....logical methods ...left.

We seem to think these grand answers can only be found
by traveling, the farther away the more likely they'll be found.
If distance equals wisdom, what name should we call Earth?
Should ignorance be her new name, or is that name
reserved for us?

Jonathan

"The going from a world we know
To one a wonder still
Is like the child's adversity
Whose vista is a hill,
Behind the hill is sorcery
And everything unknown,
But will the secret compensate
For climbing it alone?"

By E Dickinson

The consensus is quickly growing that the blueberries are life.

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/183/1P144429148EFF3370P2542L5M1.JPG

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005)
PROCESSES OF FORMATION OF SPHEROIDAL CONCRETIONS
AND INFERENCES FOR "BLUEBERRIES" IN MERIDIANI
PLANUM SEDIMENTS.

"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps
or bands of cement not spheroids. Spheroidal nodular concretions
on Earth result from spherical diffusion of products of
diagenetic reactions involving organic"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf

DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS?

.Second Conference on Early Mars (2004) 8063.pdf

2) One of the more intriguing terrestrial
analogues which may follow the creation of
such organo-metallic entities is the possibility
that the blueberries found by the Mars Rover team
are similar to terrestrial concretions which are almost all
nucleated around an organic/biological residue core.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdf

The  Stromatolites of Stella Maris, Bahamas
http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html

EnduranceCrater
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/111/1N138039382EFF2600P1986R0M1.HTML
http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/104/tn/1P137418221EFF2208P2360L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j
pg.html


Opportunity micro images
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m014.html
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/105/1M137503553EFF2208P2956M2M1.HTML

Compare the delicate erosion shown in the ..../shadows/...of each
This dates water flow on Mars are recent, meaning ongoing to this
day.

Yellowstone mudpot.
http://www.nps.gov/yell/slidefile/thermalfeatures/mudpots/midwaylower/Images/054
02.jpg


Endurance mudpot
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opportunity/pancam/2004-07-16/1P143185259EFF322
1P2397R1M1.JPG


http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/171/1N143374382EFF3300P1921L0M1.JPG

Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan
biosystems from inert structures

Conclusion:
"Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially
dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an
important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although
such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of
lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and
biological/biogeochemical principles."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/171/1N143374382EFF3300P1921L0M1.JPG

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf

Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars

"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories
on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in
terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety
of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of
water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures
(Christensen et al., 2000)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf

NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!

"To make a long story short (I shall over-simplify for sake of
brevity), there is increasing evidence of the function of
bacteria in rock-forming and even in some sand-forming processes
(wherein bacteria serve to nucleate the growth of small silicate
crystals). On Earth, in formation of spherical concretions,
bacterial colonies and/or other organic matter infused with
bacteria nucleate crystalline silica growth. I suspect it would
likewise be the case where Mars was wet over extended periods."

"In the wet, mushy or 'muddy' environment, the resulting micro-
concretion slowly grows (sometimes incorporating or
encapsulating adjacent grains of silt or sand, sometimes simply
by crystalline growth from colloidally suspended silica
crystallizing and pushing adjacent silt ahead of its growth,
sometimes by a combination of the two processes), increasing its
diameter spherically across time. If conditions for the
bacterial colony's growth are episodic, one can sometimes see
(upon slicing the concretion) rather distinct concentric layers
of growth that formed the concretion, but where conditions for
growth are constant, the concretion may show a crystalline
pattern with virtually no concentric layering."
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m03-035.shtml

Notice the concentric layering of the sphere in the lower left
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/106/1M137593860EFF2208P2956M2M1.JPG

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130762321EFF0454P2953M2M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/086/1M135817872EFF1407P2936M2M1.JPG
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/029/1M130760017EFF0454P2933M2M1.HTML

And peruse the titles of the papers presented in the last
astrobiology conference. I'm in the process of reviewing
them all, so far I've found .....only one...that says the
blueberries can be explained by non-living processes.
And guess who authored that paper????   Steve Squyres
the head of the Rover science team....a geologist.

The only person that still clings to the notion the spheres
are not life is the guy in charge. A geologist that would
have to pass the brass ring elsewhere if they ...are life.

A serious conflict of interest. Are there no investigative journalists
left in science? Hell will freeze over before Nasa gives us
the true picture.

Monday, March 14, 2005
ASTROBIOLOGY I: MARS, METHANE, MINERALS, AND MISSIONS
Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005) sess02.pdf
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/sess02.pdf

Tuesday, March 15, 2005
ASTROBIOLOGY II:
MICROBES, MISSIONS, AND EARLY TERRESTRIAL LIFE
8:30 a.m. Salon C
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/sess13.pdf

PROGRAM
36th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference
March 14-18, 2005
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/program.pdf

s

> I am sadly convinced NASA will not be the primary explorer, and will be
> lucky if they are involved at all...:(
George - 20 Nov 2005 18:41 GMT
>> many discoveries will have been made by robotic explorers before
>> someone actually stands on the planet.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> geology and life. The chemical structure is all geology, and
> the self-similar physical structure is all life.

Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny.  It is making you delusional.

<snip>
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 20:38 GMT
> Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny.  It is making you delusional.

Well then the folks at Cal Tech and JPL are delusional too
when they wrote this about the spheres....

"In summary, simple nucleation controlled growth will form clumps
or bands of cement not spheroids Spheroidal nodular concretions
on Earth result from spherical  diffusion of products of diagenetic
reactions involving organics"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2148.pdf

You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres
life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions
since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released.
And the whole sponge gemmule thingy, well, I'm not embarrassed
by that mistake, quite the opposite. A sponge gemmule is the
reproductive pod of the very first and simplest two celled metazoan.
Such a reproductive pod should take on the form of the life from
which it evolved. Which would be bacteria.
A bacterial concretion and a sponge gemmule should be
quite alike. In fact I believe the two are just one tick
from each other on the evolutionary path. Which means
a gemmule would be as close to correct as possible, without
being correct.

Missed by ...that much. (holding fingers closely together)

Sphere
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/028/1M130671782EFF0454P2953M2M1.HTML
Gemmule
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plfeb96.htm#gemmules

Here's a post of mine below from a year and a half ago. It's pretty
much the same one I'm posting now, except now I can include recent
research that supports the same conclusions. You just can't believe
someone without a clue about geology, chemistry or biology can
figure it out it faster then the pros.    But I had the advantage
on them, complexity science, it's that good. It teaches you
how to figure things out quickly, and across all disciplines.

Dynamics of complex systems, full online text.
http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/
......................................................................................
............

Friday, June 04, 2004

The  Stromatalites of Stella Maris, Bahamas
http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html

Endurance Crater
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/111/1N138039382EFF2600P1986R0M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG

Microbolites in the Geologic Record

"Whereas internal morphology indicates the accretionary nature of stromatolite
growth,the external morphology of stromatolites can be used to infer hydrological
conditions
in the environment in which the stromatolites grew. For instance, in still-water
environments, stromatolites will approximate a flat sheet, while in more turbulent
environments the stromatolites will consist of interlinked domes or columns, with
flat, linking mats between them."
http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/newstrom.htm

Introduction

"At all scales of observation, problems often arise when trying
to distinguish between biological and inorganic features in the ancient
rock record. Stromatolites, defined as laminated biosedimentary fabrics
formed by the trapping and binding of sediments and/or
precipitation of minerals by microorganisms (Walter 1977),
are sometimes impossible to distinguish from finely laminated sediments
formed by inorganic processes"
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/taphon.pdf

Endurance finely layered rock
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/123/1P139114820EFF2815P2532R1M1.JPG

Opportunity microscopic images
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/105/1M137503553EFF2208P2956M2M1.HTML
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/106/1M137593860EFF2208P2956M2M1.JPG

Lamination as a tool for distinguishing microbial and metazoan
biosystems from inert structures

"Conclusion:
Lamination often indicates the presence of microbial or microbially
dominated biosystems. Furthermore, laminated structures are an
important borderline to distinguish micro and macroorganisms, although
such a distinction is relative. Both the presence and absence of
lamination are lawful phenomena based on the fundamental physical and
biological/biogeochemical principles."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/scholz.pdf

Morphological Biosignatures and the Search for Life on Mars

"Determining the location of potential paleobiological repositories
on Mars requires an understanding of the martian surface in
terms of elemental abundances and mineralogy. This variety
of hematite on Earth forms only in the presence of large amounts of
water, and typically at elevated (hydrothermal) temperatures
(Christensen et al., 2000)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf

Hydrothermal Systems:
Doorways to Early Biosphere Evolution

ABSTRACT
"Hydrothermal systems may have provided favorable
environments for the prebiotic synthesis of
organic compounds necessary for life and may also
have been a site for life's origin . They could also have
provided a refuge for thermophilic (heat-loving)
microorganisms during late, giant-impact events.
Phylogenetic information encoded in the genomes of
extant thermophiles provides important clues about
this early period of biosphere development that are
broadly consistent with geological evidence for Archean
environments . Hydrothermal environments often
exhibit high rates of mineralization, which favors
microbial fossilization."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/gsa.pdf

The State and Future of Mars Polar Science and Exploration

"The recent identification of putative shorelines in the northern plains
suggests that the water from these events may have contributed to one or
more ice-covered lakes or seas that may have collectively covered as
much as a third of the planet . These, and other lines of evidence, suggest
that Mars is water-rich and may store the equivalent of a global
ocean of water » 0.5-1 km deep as ground ice and
groundwater within its crust (Carr 1987)."

"Whether the early climate was warm or cold, the presence of
abundant water on the surface has profound implications for the
development of life. Indeed, given the intense impact and volcanic
activity that characterized the planet at this time, the development
of long-lived hydrothermal systems was likely widespread-
duplicating many of the important conditions that are thought
to have given rise to life on Earth (Farmer 1996)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/marspolarsci.pdf

Morphological Biosignatures and the Search
for Life on Mars

"In microbial communities, organisms exist in a common
EPS ("slime") matrix. These materials hold great taphonomic
importance because they can control aspects of the chemical
microenvironments that promote early diagenetic mineralization,
a key factor in microbial fossilization (Farmer, 1999). EPS
is known to bind a wide variety of metals in-
cluding Pb, Sr, Zn, Cd, Co, Cu, Mn, Mg, Fe, Ag,
and Ni (Decho, 1990, and references therein)."

"The concentration of these metals above background
levels presents an interesting possibility for the
detection of organisms even after organic mate-
rials have been degraded (Farmer, 1999; Conrad
and Nealson, 2001)."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/morpho.pdf

TAPHONOMIC MODES IN MICROBIAL FOSSILIZATION

"In conjunction with other types of chemofossil evidence (e.g., isotopes and organic
biomarker compounds), spatial distributions of trace metals that are comparable
in pattern and scale to microbial cells and biofilms may provide additional
evidence for biogenicity . And through an improved understanding of the
varied role(s) played by trase elements in modern microbial processes, we
may eventually be able to extract paleobiological information from rocks
even where primary organic materials have been completely
degraded and lost."

A Mossbauer investigation of iron-rich terrestrial
hydrothermal vent systems: Lessons for Mars exploration

"While a high-temperature origin for terrestrial life is still
debatable, the high biological productivity and rapid
mineralization that are typical of thermal spring environments
make them particularly favorable places for the preservation
of a microbial fossil record. For this reason, hydrothermal
deposits are regarded as important targets in the exploration
for fossil evidence of ancient Martian life"

"Among the stated capabilities of the Mossbauer instrument is the
ability to detect "nanophase and amorphous hydrothermal Fe
minerals that could preserve biological materials" (S.W. Squyres,
http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/athena/mossbauer.html, 1998a).
Terrestrial hydrothermal springs, including deep-sea vents,
harbor complex ecosystems that have evolved based on nutri-
ents and energy supplied by the vent effluent. Importantly,
land-based spring systems also include photosynthetic (cya-
nobacterial) species. Previously, we reported results of a
Mossbauer investigation of samples (collected by J. C. Alt)
from submarine hydrothermal vents ("black smokers") in an
area of the East Pacific Rise [Agresti et al., 19941. The iron-
rich minerals were shown by scanning electron microscopy
(SEM) to be associated with bacterial filaments [Alt, 19881."
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/mossbauer.pdf

4. Siderite as a Component of an Ancient Stromatolite

"Mossbauer spectra at two temperatures of a freshly slabbed
portion of a 2.09 Ga (Early Proterozoic) hematic chert stro-
matolite from the Gunflint Iron Formation (PPRG 2443) are
shown in Figure 26. The high-velocity ferrous peak migrates
from its position at 100 K to overlap the fifth peak of hematite
at 19 K. This behavior and the agreement of the splitting pa-
rameters with those of siderite argue that this sample contains
a small fraction of siderite. (dominant siderite peak at -1090 cm-I).
The sample investigated was freshly slabbed for the Mossbauer
transmission measurement, so the iron carbonate is interior
to the native stromatolite rock. Its occurrence in this 2.09 Ga
old rock in- dicates that long (billion-year) survival times
for siderite are possible when preserved in silica."

(Fig 26 page 15,  please compare with blueberry bowl
 chart for siderite signature)
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/mossbauer.pdf

A Bowl of Hematite-Rich 'Berries'
Mar 18, 2004

"This graph shows two spectra of outcrop regions near the
Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity's landing site.
The blue line shows data for a region dubbed "Berry Bowl,"
which contains a handful of the sphere-like grains dubbed
"blueberries."

Blueberry chart
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/mar-18-2004/captions/image-19.html

GROUNDWATER-FED IRON-RICH MICROBIAL MATS IN A FRESHWATER
CREEK: GROWTH CYCLES AND FOSSILIZATION POTENTIAL OF
MICROBIAL FEATURES.

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf

NASA-JPL May Have Cooked Their Own Goose!

"To make a long story short (I shall over-simplify for sake of
brevity), there is increasing evidence of the function of
bacteria in rock-forming and even in some sand-forming processes
(wherein bacteria serve to nucleate the growth of small silicate
crystals). On Earth, in formation of spherical concretions,
bacterial colonies and/or other organic matter infused with
bacteria nucleate crystalline silica growth. I suspect it would
likewise be the case where Mars was wet over extended periods."

"In the wet, mushy or 'muddy' environment, the resulting micro-
concretion slowly grows (sometimes incorporating or
encapsulating adjacent grains of silt or sand, sometimes simply
by crystalline growth from colloidally suspended silica
crystallizing and pushing adjacent silt ahead of its growth,
sometimes by a combination of the two processes), increasing its
diameter spherically across time. If conditions for the
bacterial colony's growth are episodic, one can sometimes see
(upon slicing the concretion) rather distinct concentric layers
of growth that formed the concretion, but where conditions for
growth are constant, the concretion may show a crystalline
pattern with virtually no concentric layering."
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m03-035.shtml

..................................

There are abundant locations on Mars to search for water, but
hematite further reduces the search to areas likely to have
underground water or hot springs. And to areas showing ideal
conditions for life and fossil preservation.

They have found everything they could have expected at
Meridiani. The Big Clue is that the hematite is concentrated
in the spheres, yet little is in the soil.

The question now is whether Nasa is simply being
conservative by dramatically downplaying the
capabilities and discoveries of this mission. Or
if they are willing to let the mission end as is
as a hedge to insure the coveted sample
return mission.

For Nasa to hide the discovery of extraterrestrial life
would be the  'Biggest Lie'  in the history of science!
Galileo v. The Holy Inquisition would be a minor
travesty in comparison. Such infamous history
should not be allowed to repeat itself.

Nasa should not be allowed to have a Vatican-like grip
on such ...universal... Discovery.

Contrary to popular opinion, we still live in the
Dark Ages.

Jonathan

s

> <snip>
George - 21 Nov 2005 04:14 GMT
>> Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny.  It is making you delusional.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions
> since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released.

No, actually I think you are nuts because you insist that the Spehrules on
Mars (the so-called blueberries) are Martian "sponges".

But your insanity aside, the above paper states very clearly:

"The most relevant to this discussion are ferric iron reduction and
sulphate reduction, both of which are significant in forming concretions on
earth and may have been relevant on Mars (but may not have been
microbial)."  Organics can mean anything, Johnny.  For instance,
volcanically derived methane is organic.  On earth, there is clearly an
association with many types of concretion and some form of microbiological
activity.  There are also many concretions that are not associated with
microbiological activity with regard to their diagenesis.  There is no
reason to assume that concretions formed from diagenetic reactions
involving microbes occurred on Mars when there is no independant evidence
to support such a contention, and when an abiotic solution works just as
well in explaining their origin.

Referring to the paper, above, it concludes:

"If organic matter had been present in the acidic and oxydized sediment
then it could have acted as a focus for a redox reaction that could have
produced a reduced Iron mineral phase, for example an iron sulphide, or
carbonate.  This does not imply a microbial process, but such reactions are
very much slower in the absence of microbial mediation."

Umm, first of all, the blueberries are composed of hematite, not iron
sulphide (pyrite or marcasite).  So why they go off on this tangent about
pyrite formation is a mystery. Secondly. there is no evidence for
carbonates in association with the blueberries.  Third, since the
blueberries are hematite and not carbonate or iron sulphide, this entire
argument is quite beside the point.  Fourth, even if these nodules were
composed of pyrite and not hematite, their comparison with Jurassic
pyrite-rimmed carbonate nodules is poor.  The Jurassic nodule is orders of
magnitude larger than the blueberries on Mars, is composed of carbonate
(which hasn't been detected at Eridiani nor at the Spirit site), and has a
notable pyrite reaction rim around it that is absent with the Martian
blueberries.  In fact, I've yet to see one single reaction rim around any
Martian blueberry.  They make the point that without microbial mediation,
"such reactions are much slower".  It is significant to note that no
organics have been either directly or indirectly identified associated with
the Martian blueberries.  The Jurassic carbonate nodule with the pyrite
reaction rim is rather large, and may have been the result of iron
reduction in association with microbial action in a carbonate-rich
solution.  In that case, the nodule likely grew relatively rapidly until
the carbonate and iron in solution was depleted.  Note that the blueberries
(which are composed of hematite, not pyrite), contain no carbonate or known
organic material, have no pyrite reaction rings, are very small, and so in
the absense of microbial action, would be expected not to attain very
significant sizes at all since that would require a significant amount of
time to attain any size larger than what we see on the Martian surface.
But then again, since the Martian blueberries are not composed of iron
sulphide, or carbonate, none of this discussion about pyrite formation in
association with organics is truly relevant to Martian blueberries in the
first place.
lifeform1@atlantic.net - 21 Nov 2005 04:31 GMT
> > You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres
> > life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions
> > since June 04, almost a year before the above paper was released.
>
> No, actually I think you are nuts because you insist that the Spehrules on
> Mars (the so-called blueberries) are Martian "sponges".

No, what he actually did, was 'propose' that the spherules very
remarkably resembled the fossilized remains of spongelike 'gemmules',
the reproductive cysts of sponges, and that the 'sponges' might very
well be organized extremophile bacteria (a la Rio Tinto), in accordance
to the information that we had at the time, which was two weeks after
Opportunity landed.

At the time, it was a brilliant piece of research, something you can
never hope to achieve.

Whether or not spherule formation is biochemically mediated still
remains to be demonstrated, but it is still very much on the table.
jonathan - 21 Nov 2005 21:34 GMT
> > > You just think I'm nuts because I've been calling the spheres
> > > life since two weeks after Opportunity landed. And bacterial concretions
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> well be organized extremophile bacteria (a la Rio Tinto), in accordance
> to the information that we had at the time, which was two weeks after> Opportunity
landed.

And if I remember correctly, I said if they were gemmules then
they should only be associated with the outcrops. When the
rover moved out of the crater into the fields, and the spheres were
everywhere, it was obvious another explanation was needed.
I was dumbfounded, I was so sure they were gemmules.

But later I realized the mistake. The spheres were much larger
in size than anything I'd seen involving microbes, so I assumed
that they must be at least two-celled life. But complexity science
is clear that life is self similar across scale, so scale shouldn't
be a primary consideration. My assumption made scale a primary
issue....oh well.

It's important to keep in mind the type of process complexity
science uses. It's a top down or a systems approach. Which is
like a search engine, it's meant to very quickly narrow the
search space close to the correct answer. It's not
really meant to find the precise answer, that comes from
the myriad details. Which is why I love this approach so
much, it's quickly and easily gets you the basic answer
to a very complex real world problem. You can find out what
you want without being trained in all the myriad disciplines
to figure out what's going on.

But when you decide to actually build or prove something, to
apply it, then the detailed knowledge of the discipline at
hand is needed. But at that point it's really just grunt work.
You have the basic answer already and can minimize the
detailed knowledge needed to apply it

Jonathan

s

> At the time, it was a brilliant piece of research, something you can
> never hope to achieve.
>
> Whether or not spherule formation is biochemically mediated still
> remains to be demonstrated, but it is still very much on the table.
jonathan - 21 Nov 2005 22:20 GMT
> >> Quit smoking so much dope, Johnny.  It is making you delusional.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> earth and may have been relevant on Mars (but may not have been
> microbial)."

But on earth iron deposits are almost always associated with
bacteria. You keep choosing the least likely explanation by
far to limit them to abiotic. With the spheres it's necessary
to do that over and over to limit their source to the non living.
Doing that quickly increases the complexity of the explanation
and it becomes a contrivance.

> Organics can mean anything, Johnny.  For instance,
> volcanically derived methane is organic.  On earth, there is clearly an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to support such a contention, and when an abiotic solution works just as
> well in explaining their origin.

An abiotic explanation does not at all explain them just as well. The spheres
show a massive self similarity in shape, size and in particular the single
aperture and off-center slash. And they do so in very different environments.
Abiotic concretions are highly dependent on the environment.
Different water flow, different size cracks in the rocks, different
soil chemistry and on and on. The concretions will differ in size
shape and they will not show the same ...asymmetrical...features.
Round yes, but a single hole in the top over and over?

No way!

Which this recent paper addresses.

DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS?

.Second Conference on Early Mars (2004) 8063.pdf

2) One of the more intriguing terrestrial analogues
which may follow the creation of such organo-metallic
entities is the possibility that the blueberries found by the
Mars Rover team are similar to terrestrial concretions which
are almost all nucleated around an organic/biological residue core.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdf

> Referring to the paper, above, it concludes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> sulphide (pyrite or marcasite).  So why they go off on this tangent about
> pyrite formation is a mystery.

Because that's how organic matter turns into hematite.

Long after these creatures were buried, iron sulfide filled their cavities,
duplicating fine details in all their parts. After the Cretaceous seas
withdrew, weathering processes acted on the pyrite, converting
it to limonite, and ultimately hematite.
http://www.fossilnews.com/1998/rufesnow2.html

>Secondly. there is no evidence for
> carbonates in association with the blueberries.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> association with organics is truly relevant to Martian blueberries in the
> first place.
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 15:50 GMT
> Got any of whatever you just took, left at all?

Not by the time you read this post

> Brian

______________________________________________________________________________________
________________________

> > What will we find?
> > Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> >
> > s
Pat Flannery - 20 Nov 2005 22:54 GMT
>What will we find?
>  

Rust.

Pat
jonathan - 20 Nov 2005 23:07 GMT
> >What will we find?
>
> Rust.

That's right, from all the hematite/iron deposits all over the surface.
The conditions on Mars would be most suitable for sulfate reducing
bacteria and the like. Guess what those kinds of bacteria leave
behind?

Iron/hematite deposits.

Mars is red from all the bacteria that's graced it's surface for eons.
We can see evidence of life on Mars by walking out in our back
yards and just looking up.  On a hazy night, without even using
glasses, the evidence of life on Mars is easy to see.

"It is this common association of microbes and iron
deposition on earth that has spurred hopes that robot
crafts exploring the hematite anomaly of Mars' Meridiani
Planum might find evidence for ancient life. The
hematite deposits of Meridiani Planum [7], regardless of
their exact origin, are considered to be a favorable host
for microorganisms that might have been associated
with their formation [8]."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1369.pdf

Jonathan

s

> Pat
George - 21 Nov 2005 04:36 GMT
>> >What will we find?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> s

You should read these reports:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1276.pdf

http://speclab.cr.usgs.gov/mars.press.release.10.2000.html

http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm04/fm04-sessions/fm04_P13B.html

Aqueous Processes on Mars: Results From the Mars Exploration Rover Mission

* Squyres, S W (squyres@astro.cornell.edu) , Cornell University, Space
Sciences Building, Ithaca, NY 14853 United States

The Mars Exploration Rovers Spirit and Opportunity have both yielded
evidence for aqueous processes at their landing sites. In Gusev crater,
Spirit found only trace evidence for the action of water on the
basalt-covered plains of the crater floor. This water action left thin
salt-rich deposits on the surfaces of rocks and in fractures within rocks,
and what appear to be magnesium sulfate salt concentrations in soils. The
older rocks in the Columbia Hills, however, show evidence for much more
substantial aqueous alteration. At Meridiani Planum, Opportunity has found
layered sedimentary rocks that we interpret to be "dirty" evaporites.
Environmental conditions that they record include episodic inundation by
shallow surface water, evaporation and desiccation. After deposition, these
rocks underwent a complex diagenetic history that resulted in
recrystallization, vug formation, and growth of hematite-rich concretions.
A stratigraphic section obtained within Endurance crater shows significant
variation of rock chemistry and texture as a function of depth, indicating
changes in depositional and/or diagenetic processes with time.
Bob Haller - 21 Nov 2005 12:10 GMT
Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other
planets too.

Oh sorry I forgot science has been largely scrapped to keep the shuttle
jobs program going:(

Even ISS science has been tossed:(:(:(
jonathan - 22 Nov 2005 03:31 GMT
> Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other
> planets too.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Even ISS science has been tossed:(:(:(

The ISS science mission has been changed to study long
duration space flight. The whole microgravity thingy
that was supposed to change the world has been abandoned..
And since the station is in the wrong orbit, it can't support the
missions to the Moon or Mars.

I guess they should've thought out the reasons for
building it a bit better eh? Instead of just building it
and figuring the purpose will be found ....later.

Kinda like what we're doing now with the whole
to the Moon and Mars goal.. If we build it 'they' will come. "
They" being a purpose for the whole effort.

Pity history is repeating itself....aint it?
Oh well, it's just another twenty years and a
few hundred billion down the tubes.

No biggee.

Jonathan

s
John Thingstad - 23 Nov 2005 00:28 GMT
>> Its time for some robotic sample return missions for mars and other
>> planets too.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> s

I find the idea of mining and manufacturing on the moon to be a good
idea. 1/6 th of earth gravity makes it ideal for getting large payloads
into space. A program that more explicitly stated and planned this
would be preferable. Nevertheless I suspect the 'extra' tonnes
of payload allowed for the heavy launch vehicle (125 tonnes)
seems sufficient to send simple assemblies to the moon.
Perhaps using two launches one for payload and another for
lunar injection and landing rockets. I like the flexibility
of the currently planned system. Plus for once their goals seems
realistic considering their budget.
Whether congress approves it.. That's another story.

Still a base with manufacturing capabilities seems like
a good first step for continued manned exploration of
the solar system.

Signature

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

jonathan - 23 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT
> I find the idea of mining and manufacturing on the moon to be a good
> idea. 1/6 th of earth gravity makes it ideal for getting large payloads
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> a good first step for continued manned exploration of
> the solar system.

That's how I understand the program, to build capabilities
on the Moon to move on to Mars.  But the same question
applies to going to Mars. How will the people benefit from
establishing bases on Mars?

Don't get me wrong. Since I was a kid the space program has
been a source of fascination and inspiration. My opposition to
this new long term goal is in the disappointment of it's limited
vision. Which I feel will doom it's success. Limited goals with
vague tangible benefits means limited funding and achievements.

The logic for creating this long term goal is backwards.

This goal is built around the notion that if it's maximized wrt
pure exploration, that the tangible benefits will eventually
follow with an equal magnitude.  One after the other, this
is a linear approach. It maximizes inspiration to generate
maximum benefits later.

This means only those already disposed to be inspired by
such a vision will be effected. Those that look to tangible
benefits, those not likely to support it,  are left empty handed.
This minimized the effect the goal has. No new supporters
are generated.

But if we reverse this, guess what happens?

If the goal is built around maximizing the tangible
benefits first, a lofty goal meant to solve one of our
most important problems on Earth. Then the goal
immediately generates an equal measure of inspiration.
Not one after the other, but both realms are invoked
at the same time, a cyclic process is established.
And those most inspired by the possibilities for improving
the human condition are inspired...first. Those not now
likely to support a massive program are brought on
board first.

This maximizes support for the program.
It maximizes the good that will flow from the effort.

If Nasa were to propose a long term goal such as
reducing our dependence on fossil fuels with a program
like this....

Space Solar Power Home
http://spacesolarpower.nasa.gov/

How many people not now on board would it effect?
A future with clean cheap energy! Environmentalists
concerned with global warming, ozone depletion, and
pollution. Those concerned most about social justice would
spring to the idea of a future with energy becoming cheaper
and more available for everyone over time. Instead of the reverse.
Those concerned about our dependence on Middle East oil.
Those that oppose wars over oil. And that's just the obvious.

America could become the world's largest energy supplier someday.

Imagine that!

Such a lofty...tangible..goal would immediately inspire. Both
realms invoked ...at once.  It would take on a life of it's
own, support would be assured across administrations, political
ideology and even generations.

The current long range goal suffers from a simple frame of reference
mistake. Those trained in math and physics must certainly
understand such a basic mistake carries through.

Reverse this mistake and we go from a linear plan that
minimizes the effects on others and public support, to
one that establishes a working system that maximizes
support.

I can't believe people smart enough, clever enough, and
resourceful enough to put people on the Moon cannot
understand this simple mistake. And it's disastrous
consequences, not only for Nasa, but for the future
of this planet.

A Trekkian Utopia is built around unlimited energy.

Post Apocalyptic nightmares are sparked by conflict
over diminishing resources.

I know which future I want.

Jonathan

s
Joe Strout - 21 Nov 2005 15:59 GMT
> What will we find?

The same things the robotic rovers have found, at least initially.

> Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence

No.

> The explanations for our minds?

Certainly not.

> Will we find 'the riches'
> That save all of mankind?

No.

> These secrets and these riches
> We cannot find them here
> Either with our hands or minds
> So they must be over there

Where?  This is email, we can't see where you're pointing.

> Distance is the secret to these discoveries
> Farthest from Earth is hiding
> All these mysteries

No, I'd say the "explanations for our minds," for example, is to be
found in the neuroscience labs right here on Earth (great strides have
been made in that direction already -- just don't ask about sleep).  The
riches (energy resources) that save all of mankind are to be found
either on Earth or in cislunar space.  And of course what you might mean
by "the secrets to our existence" is anyone's guess.  But try the
philosophy department of your nearest university.

So your assertion has absolutely no basis in fact as far as I can see.  
You're just making stuff up.

> If only the universe had an end
> And we could stand there, looking back
> Then God would reveal his plan to us
> And Earth would be perfect again

...Right.  I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup.  Go find a
religion group to hang out in.  These groups start with "sci" which is
an abbreviation of "science."  Mysticism is not welcome here.

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe@strout.net           http://www.macwebdir.com             |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
lifeform1@atlantic.net - 21 Nov 2005 17:22 GMT
> ...Right.  I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup.  Go find a
> religion group to hang out in.  These groups start with "sci" which is
> an abbreviation of "science."  Mysticism is not welcome here.

Great, another usenet cop. It must be the steroids.
Eric Chomko - 23 Nov 2005 18:33 GMT
: > ...Right.  I think you clicked on the wrong newsgroup.  Go find a
: > religion group to hang out in.  These groups start with "sci" which is
: > an abbreviation of "science."  Mysticism is not welcome here.

: Great, another usenet cop. It must be the steroids.

Actually mysticism and other forms of BS are tolerated on science
newsgroups, or at least should be; but don't expect folks not to shoot
holes in it (i.e debunk the crap).

Eric
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 21:35 GMT
>Actually mysticism and other forms of BS are tolerated on science
>newsgroups, or at least should be; but don't expect folks not to shoot
>holes in it (i.e debunk the crap).
>  

Yeah, if the idea is far-out enough, it's actually fun to read...you
know, like profitable SSTO designs. ;-)

Pat
Pat Flannery - 21 Nov 2005 21:21 GMT
>>Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
>>    
>
>No.

Ah, come on! I saw this movie about a trip to Mars, and they found this
underground room that had a map of the solar system in it, and a
hologram of an Alien Gray appeared, and, and....
....later, it all turned out to be just a dream Governor Schwarzenegger
was having... :-)

Pat
Eric Chomko - 23 Nov 2005 18:52 GMT
: >>Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
: >>    
: >
: >No.

: Ah, come on! I saw this movie about a trip to Mars, and they found this
: underground room that had a map of the solar system in it, and a
: hologram of an Alien Gray appeared, and, and....
: ....later, it all turned out to be just a dream Governor Schwarzenegger
: was having... :-)

I total recall this, wasn't there this nice looking, atheltic brunette
that looked like Mercedes Ruehl from the Fisher King with Arnie?

Eric

: Pat
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT
>I total recall this, wasn't there this nice looking, atheltic brunette
>that looked like Mercedes Ruehl from the Fisher King with Arnie?
>  

Uh-huh! And they dropped Governor Schwarzenegger onto the Martian
surface inside of a thing with airbags on it, but there were these
killer robots there that had been sent to terraform the planet and gone
crazy, and later Arnold met up with this monkey and an alien slave
worker, and they were chased all over by this bat-rat-spider thing until
this head in a glass ball offered them a ride back to Earth, and they
landed in this sand pit near a little boy's house, and then the Martians
implanted things in the little boy's family's necks that turned them
into Scientologists...but they got away, and there was this train that
was all of fire, and the little girl freaked out because she thought
Arnold was going to kill her, but it turned out Arnold was good now, and
had been reprogramed by the Martians to be a Compassionate Conservative,
and help protect her until she could bear a child in the future that
would help fight Predators, and then the bad Martians came flying at
them on winged beasts, but the Scientology wife hacked the head
Martian's winged beast's head off with this sword that had been found in
the grave of an Atlantian Admiral, and Arnold took the evil Martian and
nailed it to The Tree Of Woe, but it turned into a snake and tried to
kill him, like it had his parents....but just then Danny DeVito came
along and revealed that he was Arnold's twin brother and he then became
Governor Of California, and...I forget the rest. :-)

Pat
Du - 22 Nov 2005 23:28 GMT
> What will we find?
> Will it be 'the secrets' to our existence
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Jonathan
Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s will be long dead
when the first man sets foot on Mars.  Damn.
Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon.
Pat Flannery - 23 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT
>Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s

Me, for instance.

> will be long dead
>when the first man sets foot on Mars.  Damn.
>Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon.
>
>  

"I'm not dead....I'm feeling better!" :-D

Pat


jonathan - 23 Nov 2005 03:32 GMT
> > Jonathan
> Those of us that watched the moon landings during the 60s will be long dead
> when the first man sets foot on Mars.  Damn.

It's already happened!  Not quite footprints, but close enough.
http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/088/tn/1P135997140EFF1413P2285L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j
pg.html


I've watched every foot of Opportunity's four mile walk across Meridiani.
I feel like I know every inch like my own backyard.

> Maybe not live long enough to see man return to the moon.

The Moon is nothing compared to the spectacular views at
Meridiani.
http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/mer/opportunity/036/1P131371178EFF0500P2275L5M
1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/104/tn/1P137418221EFF2208P2360L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.j
pg.html

 
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