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Russia's Clipper

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Mark Lopa - 12 Nov 2005 19:32 GMT
Are there any photos of the full-scale mock-up for Russia's Clipper shuttle?

Thanks.
Rusty - 12 Nov 2005 20:48 GMT
>Are there any photos of the full-scale mock-up for Russia's Clipper shuttle?
>
>Thanks.

http://www.espacial.org/astronautica/vuelotripulado/kliper1.htm

http://www.spacenews.be/flash/archives/flash0405.html

http://www.spacenews.be/flash/img2005/1204b.jpg

http://www.sg.hu/cikkek/38966

http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/270/01.shtml

http://www.federalspace.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=477

http://armsshow.itar-tass.com/?page=article&aid=18377&cid=25

http://lenta.ru/lib/kliper/

http://www.cnews.ru/news/top/index.shtml?2005/08/17/184925

http://yastro.narod.ru/s_news30.htm

-Rusty
Mark Lopa - 12 Nov 2005 21:59 GMT
Thank you, Rusty!
Brian Gaff - 13 Nov 2005 09:35 GMT
But will it ever be built?

Brian

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Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
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>>Are there any photos of the full-scale mock-up for Russia's Clipper
>>shuttle?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> -Rusty
Damon Hill - 13 Nov 2005 10:20 GMT
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:1ODdf.6853$Lw5.3440
@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

> But will it ever be built?

Let's hope so, and that it'll be just as available on
the world market as any jetliner.

--Damon
Mark J Underwood - 15 Nov 2005 16:50 GMT
I understood the 'Clipper' to be a joint ESA/ Russian venture.
Damon Hill - 15 Nov 2005 18:10 GMT
> I understood the 'Clipper' to be a joint ESA/ Russian venture.

Initially it was a Russian project, but they're welcoming anyone
with a good technology base and money--especially money.  ESA
would be a logical partner, since they're building an R-7 pad at
Kourou that could launch Kliper.  Japan appears interested, also.

China is no doubt paying attention, but is likely too committed
to Shenzou.  India?  Corporate interests?  A consortium of filthy
rich individuals with a yen to travel?

Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.

--Damon
Derek Lyons - 15 Nov 2005 23:17 GMT
>> I understood the 'Clipper' to be a joint ESA/ Russian venture.
>
>Initially it was a Russian project,

It still is.

>but they're welcoming anyone with a good technology base and
>money--especially money.

The Russian space program will do just about anything for money.

>ESA would be a logical partner, since they're building an R-7 pad
>at Kourou that could launch Kliper.  Japan appears interested, also.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.

It's too bad fanciful daydreaming isn't an Olympic event - you'd be in
the running for the gold.

D.
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Damon Hill - 16 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT
>>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.
>
> It's too bad fanciful daydreaming isn't an Olympic event - you'd be in
> the running for the gold.

I've always preferred optimism; it annoys the pessimists.

 :) :) :)

--Damon
Jorge R. Frank - 16 Nov 2005 01:56 GMT
>>>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.
>>
>> It's too bad fanciful daydreaming isn't an Olympic event - you'd be in
>> the running for the gold.
>
> I've always preferred optimism; it annoys the pessimists.

My prediction: Kliper will exceed neither the shuttle's record annual
flight rate (9) or the record number of people carried in one year (58).

That's no DC-3. And I don't think it's pessimistic either, based on what
I've seen so far about Kliper's capabilities.

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Damon Hill - 16 Nov 2005 02:17 GMT
>>>>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That's no DC-3. And I don't think it's pessimistic either, based on
> what I've seen so far about Kliper's capabilities.

So what's your vision for a viable space transportation system?
Do you see any specific projects that might lead to opening up
human access to at least low orbit?

I don't see any spectacular developments; I'd settle for the
next level up in capability from expendible small-crew capsules, so long
as it's sustainable.

Alas, Shuttle wasn't it.  CEV obviously will never be it.  I'm hoping
Kliper will meet some of those capabilities, and become a marketable
commodity like any large commercial jet aircraft.

--Damon
Jorge R. Frank - 16 Nov 2005 04:41 GMT
>>>>>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> So what's your vision for a viable space transportation system?

I don't have one. My vision is for a development approach, not a
particular system. It's not particularly original, either; most of these
are alt.space ideas I've gradually come to accept. Nothing I write below
is new but it may sound surprising coming from me.

First look at the desired end state. Viability (at least by my
definition) requires affordability to the point of profitability, such
that continued survival of the system is not subject to the vagaries of
government funding.

Affordability means minimum total cost of ownership. This cost includes
the recurring operations costs and the development cost amortized over
each flight. It follows that to mimimize cost, flight rate must be
maximized - for that matter, as a first approximation, flight rate is
*everything*. The trivial (<10/year) flight rates achieved so far will
not help. You don't really start seeing the costs go down until the
flight rate approaches triple digits. Southwest Airlines has a
maintenance infrastructure comparable to NASA's standing army for the
shuttle, but they're profitable because they keep their airplanes in the
air. If Southwest had a fleet of four 737s and flew them 4-8 times per
year, a 737 flight would cost as much as a shuttle flight, and only the
government could afford to buy the tickets.

In my opinion, it's simply not possible to achieve those kinds of flight
rates with expendable systems. Near-total reusability is a requirement.
The other aspects of system design (number of stages, HTHL vs VTVL vs
VTHL, wings vs no wings, etc) are important only to the extent that they
affect flight rate.

How do you build an orbital vehicle with a flight rate that high? Short
answer is that right now, I don't know - and neither does anyone else,
though some think they do. Attempting to build one now would be like
trying to build a DC-3 in 1914 - or for that matter, attempting the space
shuttle in 1972. It's not that the technologies aren't there, it's that
the existing technologies are too immature and could use more
development.

How to get there from here? We have vehicles that can fly at those flight
rates, though they fall far short of orbital performance (barely
suborbital, actually). And we have vehicles with orbital performance that
fall far short of the required flight rate. We can start with the former
and gradually increase the performance, or we can start with the latter
and gradually increase the flight rate. In my opinion, though the former
approach is not a sure thing, it is far more likely to succeed than the
latter, which is probably a dead end. To stretch a Henry Spencer analogy
a bit, if you've got big dinosaurs and small mammals and you want big
mammals, you're more likely to succeed by growing your mammals than by
evolving your dinosaurs.

> Do you see any specific projects that might lead to opening up
> human access to at least low orbit?

There are a number of companies building or planning suborbital vehicles
that could achieve the required flight rate. Most of them are well known
to readers of this group. I won't get into listing my favorites since I
predict that would send the thread into holy wars over particular vehicle
designs. I'd prefer to stay focused on development approaches. The
government could encourage growth in this sector by a variety of
approaches, such as market guarantees and prizes. NASA's Centennial
Challenges has a prize in this area (Suborbital Payload Challenge) but in
my opinion it goes in the wrong direction by eliminating the pilot
requirement and by increasing the altitude requirement rather than the
speed requirement. If it were up to me, I'd issue a prize with the exact
same requirements as the X-Prize except with an additional requirement to
achieve a certain minimum speed (or cover a certain downrange distance
that would in turn require a particular speed). More altitude gets us no
closer to orbit, while more speed will encourage the development of TPS
and propulsion technologies that *will* get us closer to orbit.

A more traditional governmental approach that could also work would be to
start building X-planes again, starting from the level of performance of
the X-15 and gradually increasing performance. In fact, that's the path
the US *was* on with the X-15 before Cold War exigencies diverted us onto
the sidetrack of spam-in-a-can atop converted ICBMs. That way lay the
Dark Side - quicker, more expedient development but lower flight rate and
more expensive operations. True, it got us to the moon by 1969 but was so
expensive that the program was abandoned as soon as its Cold War
political objectives were met. It may get us back to the moon by 2020 but
only with a large governmental commitment that only the most naive think
can be politically sustained for that long.

I grow frustrated with people insisting on learning the wrong lessons
from the space shuttle: that reusable vehicles are necessarily more
expensive than expendables, that crew and cargo must be separated, that
wings are bad. The shuttle didn't fail for any of those reasons. It
failed because NASA attempted to go all the way from the X-15 to an
operational reusable orbital vehicle in one jump, because NASA had too
many diverse customers for the vehicle which resulted in many demanding
performance requirements, and because the development budget was capped
too low. The combination of the above caused NASA to first back off from
total reusability, then having to push existing technology too hard to
meet the performance requirements, then making design tradeoffs that
sacrificed flight rate for lower development cost. Had NASA instead
committed, in the post-Apollo environment, to pick up where the X-15 left
off and gradually work its way to orbit, it may well have taken until the
turn of the century for it to get there - but the result would have been
far more economical.

> I don't see any spectacular developments; I'd settle for the
> next level up in capability from expendible small-crew capsules, so
> long as it's sustainable.

I would respectfully submit that you're more likely to get to a
sustainable end-state by settling for the next level up in capability
from reusable suborbital vehicles - whether capsules or not.

> Alas, Shuttle wasn't it.  CEV obviously will never be it.  I'm hoping
> Kliper will meet some of those capabilities, and become a marketable
> commodity like any large commercial jet aircraft.

Kliper is more reusable than Soyuz, so it's at least a baby step in the
right direction. However, it is an inherently low-flight-rate vehicle
using expendable launch vehicles, which means it's ultimately a dead end
- an attempt to evolve a dinosaur rather than grow a mammal. It's not
even the Curtiss Jenny of space, let alone the DC-3 of space.

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JRF

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check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
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Derek Lyons - 16 Nov 2005 05:48 GMT
>In my opinion, it's simply not possible to achieve those kinds of flight
>rates with expendable systems. Near-total reusability is a requirement.
>The other aspects of system design (number of stages, HTHL vs VTVL vs
>VTHL, wings vs no wings, etc) are important only to the extent that they
>affect flight rate.

Nit:  I'd phrase that as 'flight rate per individual vehicle'.  It's
quite possible to have a pipeline with a high flight rate, but hideous
total costs because of the large number of vehicles and man hours
required.  (It was the potential for exactly this scenario, the most
optimistic predictions of the Lunar and Apollo Applications programs,
that really put the spurs to the development of the Shuttle.)

>How to get there from here? We have vehicles that can fly at those flight
>rates, though they fall far short of orbital performance (barely
>suborbital, actually).

Nit:  We really don't have any such vehicles in operation.  SS1 style
vehicle have the potential, but it remains unproven.  A proven
capability for burst operation of a nonfunctional (from the POV of
passenger/cargo operations) prototype is a long, long way from an
operational and debugged 'pipeline'.

D.
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Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Monte Davis - 16 Nov 2005 10:43 GMT
"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote:

>I grow frustrated with people insisting on learning the wrong lessons
>from the space shuttle...

Fine post, Jorge. Re: "the development budget was capped too low," I
submit that the conventional lament about OMB and Nixon (starting
development with $5-6B rather than the $10-11B requested) implicitly
understates the scale of the challenge.

I believe that getting from where we were in 1972 to the levels of
capability, cost, and flight rate then projected for STS was a
technical/economic challenge on the scale not of $11B (call it 30-35%
of Apollo), but of multiple Apollos, in both money and time. We didn't
want to face that then, and a lot of people still don't want to face
it today.

Maybe it was Apollo afterglow -- we'd done the seemingly impossible
from 1961 to 1969, and we could do it again. Maybe it was a misleading
intuition that since we'd reached 25,000 mph for a trip of 240,000
miles, learning to reach 17,000 mph just 200 miles up cheaply and
frequently should be easier.

By "a lot of people still don't want to face it today," I mean the
frequent assertions that STS suffered from a single key technical
flaw: not being 100% reusable... or not using titanium-columbium or
active cooling instead of the airframe and TPS we got... or acceding
to Air Force demands for payload mass, dimensions, and cross-range...
or combining crew and cargo in the first place... you know the litany
as well as I. What they all have in common is an underlying assumption
that we could have achieved 1972's goals on something like the STS
budget and timetable if only we'd done it *smarter*.

I don't believe that was ever in the cards; I believe that when you
start in this gravity well, with these Isps and consequent mass
ratios, you're already in a tough, expensive corner of the engineering
trade space -- and when you add reusability's demands on engines,
airframes, mass of thermal protection and landing system, you're in an
even tougher corner. Smarter helps only so much: however you slice it,
it's a long, costly, incremental struggle to get out of that corner.

I'm sympathetic to the alt.space POV that we should put less emphasis
on technology and more on economics and organization: back off from
the bleeding edge for simplicity and robustness, concentrate on
higher flight rates, leaner infrastructure, airline-like ops and all
that good stuff.

But you don't *get to* that good stuff simply by being private rtaher
than public, entrepreneurial rather than bureaucratic, and snarking at
NASA. At $200,000 for a brief barnstorming ride on Spaceship Two,
guess what? You're starting in a tough corner of the market space.
That too will change only incrementally, through experience in many,
many flights in many, many designs. How long before there are as many
flights to orbit per year as there were airplane flights in the first
year of the Curtiss Jenny, let alone of the DC-3?

The most importrant lesson of the Shuttle is that Apollo was a sprint,
but CATS -- whether via public or private effort -- is a marathon.

-Monte        
John Doe - 16 Nov 2005 05:07 GMT
> > That's no DC-3. And I don't think it's pessimistic either, based on
> > what I've seen so far about Kliper's capabilities.

Perhaps. But if Kliper can act as a 6 person taxi and escape pod and to
a space station, it would be a major advance in how much it costs to
keep people in space since a single vehicle could now support 6 instead
of 3 crewmembers.

If the technology to build a truly reusable vehicle isn't quite there
yet, Kliper is still a step to improve the situation.

Apollo was like a steam locomotive.  Shuttle is like diesel, and so will
Kliper.  At the time diesel locomotives came out and replaced steam
engines, did they just give up improving diesel ones because they
figured that until the technology existed to build TGVs it was pointless
to operate trains ?

I think politicians have watched too much star-trek and expect NASA to
be able to build the Enterprise today and are dispointed that the
Shuttle is so far behind their ideal vehicle. So they call NASA
"incompetant" and force it to return to the steam engine. They should
have tasked NASA to develop a next generation space shuttle, just like
car manufacturers improve their designs every year.

Once you have the basic technologies for a good ship, you can use it to
make mini shuttles without cargo capacity as well as bigger shuttles
with a cargo compartment.  Materials, systems and engines are what
really count and what is missing today. (like a truly reusable heat shield).
Derek Lyons - 16 Nov 2005 05:51 GMT
>> > That's no DC-3. And I don't think it's pessimistic either, based on
>> > what I've seen so far about Kliper's capabilities.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>keep people in space since a single vehicle could now support 6 instead
>of 3 crewmembers.

ROTFLMAO.  *Would be*?  Please provide a total cost breakdown so we
can see that for ourselves.

Oh, right.  Kliper is vaporware - nobody knows if it will be as cheap
as claimed.

>I think politicians have watched too much star-trek and expect NASA to
>be able to build the Enterprise today and are dispointed that the
>Shuttle is so far behind their ideal vehicle. So they call NASA
>"incompetant" and force it to return to the steam engine. They should
>have tasked NASA to develop a next generation space shuttle, just like
>car manufacturers improve their designs every year.

ROTFLMAO.  It's not just the politicians - that's exactly the approach
the fanboys have been insisting upon for years.

D.
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Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

rk - 16 Nov 2005 09:23 GMT
> I think politicians have watched too much star-trek and expect NASA to
> be able to build the Enterprise today and are dispointed that the
> Shuttle is so far behind their ideal vehicle. So they call NASA
> "incompetant" and force it to return to the steam engine.

No.  Perhaps you have a citation for this, I'd be interested in reading it,
and it looks like Just Fantasy, Mezei.  The problem I have heard that is the
issue is managing large programs and budget/schedule estimation and control.

The politicians, if you bothered to read Dubya's speech, changed the mode of
operation of developing and building technologies to giving a new goal of
manned space exploration.

Signature

rk
"Just make sure all crewmembers are jewish. Then you throw a penny into
the Soyuz capsule and all 12 will find a way to fit in there"
-- JF Mezei, February 8, 2003.

Derek Lyons - 16 Nov 2005 05:31 GMT
>> That's no DC-3. And I don't think it's pessimistic either, based on
>> what I've seen so far about Kliper's capabilities.
>
>So what's your vision for a viable space transportation system?
>Do you see any specific projects that might lead to opening up
>human access to at least low orbit?

One thing and one thing only will open up non govermental human acess
- the development of a viable market.  The fanboys concentrate on the
l33t hardware aspect because the market aspect is seemingly
intractable.

D.
Signature

Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Derek Lyons - 16 Nov 2005 05:36 GMT
>>>Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.
>>
>> It's too bad fanciful daydreaming isn't an Olympic event - you'd be in
>> the running for the gold.
>
>I've always preferred optimism; it annoys the pessimists.

I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist.  I've been watching the fanboys
drool since about the time of OTRAG and Conestoga.  I long ago came to
the realization that the problem isn't hardware.

On the other hand, the fanboys drool over every new startup and every
new power point and somehow ignore the fact of the ongoing string of
failures.  All too often they sound like shallow women discussing
relationships in a wine bar, "oh, never mind last month, this month's
flavor is *THE* one, this time for *SURE*!  It's a capsule, a dessert
topping *AND* a floorwax!".

D.
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Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

ed kyle - 16 Nov 2005 16:26 GMT
> > I understood the 'Clipper' to be a joint ESA/ Russian venture.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Kliper might be the DC-3 of manned spaceflight.

There won't be a space-age DC-3 until there is a destination
for general-public-type passengers.  This destination would have
to be worth the trip.  It would have to be big.  Way bigger than
ISS.  It would have to be out of this world spectacular.  It would
have to be something like a Las Vegas resort - more than just
weightlessness and windows and freeze-dried meals.  It would
have to entertain.  It would cost tens of billions to build such a
place.  I don't think we will see anything like this while Klipper
is around.    

- Ed Kyle
Derek Lyons - 15 Nov 2005 23:11 GMT
"Mark J Underwood" <mark.j.underwoodremovethisbit@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>I understood the 'Clipper' to be a joint ESA/ Russian venture.

The Russians and the ESA have come to an agreement to discuss the
terms under which the Russians and the ESA can negotiate an agreement
by which the ESA and Russian might someday come to an agreement about
Kliper.

In short, no - it's not a joint venture, it's Russian vaporware that
someday the two might decide to discuss transforming into a joint
venture.

D.
Signature

Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

 
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