 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsSpace ScienceAstronomyAmateur AstronomySpace FlightSpace StationShuttleSpace HistorySpace PolicySETI SpaceKB.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Space Forum / Shuttle / November 2005G. Bush Saves Presidency; Announces "Apollo" Program For Energy!
Oh wait a minute, that was a silly dream. They only announced another Apollo program, and forgot to say ...'for'... what. Never mind. s >Oh wait a minute, that was a silly dream. They only announced >another Apollo program, and forgot to say ...'for'... what. Actually, somebody already *did* do that. Gerald R. Ford, if I'm not mistaken. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html Sadly that might help his legacy, but he cant do it, being in bed with the oil industry:( A 10 year commitment to be free of middle east oil, is doable. brazils economy runs on ethanol, produced from plants. GM has built the cars for at least 10 years. if we werent sticking our nose in the middle east, the terrorists wouldnt be interested in us. Bush the failed president, who brought shame and disgrace to the office of the presidency and our country. while killing his own party too. Stay tuned, resignation is always a possiblity! > Bush the failed president, who brought shame and disgrace to the office > of the presidency and our country. while killing his own party too. That last point seems overly optimistic to me. > Stay tuned, resignation is always a possiblity! No, that would require admitting that he's wrong, which I don't think he's capable of doing. We're stuck with him for another three years. ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: | | joe@strout.net http://www.macwebdir.com | `------------------------------------------------------------------' <More political sh.t elided> Jesus, can't you clueless w.nkers even wait for an election year? <plonk>  Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > <More political sh.t elided> > > Jesus, can't you clueless w.nkers even wait for an election year? > > <plonk> Right back atcha. ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: | | joe@strout.net http://www.macwebdir.com | `------------------------------------------------------------------' > if we werent sticking our nose in the middle east, the terrorists > wouldnt be interested in us. Perhaps, but even then only true in the short term. In the long run, they're interested in everybody in as much as their ultimate goal is global imposition of Sharia law. SignatureRegards, Mike Combs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Member of the National Non-sequitur Society. We may not make much sense, but we do like pizza. > Stay tuned, resignation is always a possiblity! No, that would require admitting that he's wrong, which I don't think he's capable of doing. We're stuck with him for another three years. Theres signs of misleading everyone on WMD, and outing CIA operatives. Things like this can get presidents to leave in disgrace, at this point anything would be better than bush..... >> Stay tuned, resignation is always a possiblity! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Things like this can get presidents to leave in disgrace, at this point > anything would be better than bush..... Are you "nucking futs?" You want Cheney? Jeeez.....We might as well contract the whole administrative branch to Haliburton, or Exxon! I know it seems at this point that anyone would be an improvement, but as bad as that fool Bush is, it could be a "whole bunch" worse.... > >> Stay tuned, resignation is always a possiblity! > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it seems at this point that anyone would be an improvement, but as bad > as that fool Bush is, it could be a "whole bunch" worse.... I think Cheney will step down for unspecified 'medical reasons' in a few months. The investigation is headed straight for him, and sooner or later he'll get indicted or have to lie on the stand. Who would Bush pick for VP? Maybe the Speaker, oh wait, he's under indictment too, and facing bigger indictments down the road with the Abramoff Indian scandal. Maybe the Senate majority leader, oh wait, he's going to be indicted sooner of later for insider trading to the tune of 10 million bucks. I forgot. So, it's Harriet Miers for the first female VP then? No, Congalicious will get it. Ya, that's it. Rice and Hillary squaring off for President next time around. Don't laugh, it just might happen. Jonathan s >Who would Bush pick for VP? Maybe the Speaker, oh wait, he's under >indictment too, and facing bigger indictments down the road with the >Abramoff Indian scandal. > If he's looking to be squeaky clean, it would be McCain. But that's not his style, and far too brainy of a move; it'll be Rice. What will be fun is if Libby turns on Cheney in a plea bargain, and Cheney, feeling betrayed, turns on Bush himself. I could easily picture him doing that. Pat >> Who would Bush pick for VP? Maybe the Speaker, oh wait, he's under >> indictment too, and facing bigger indictments down the road with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cheney, feeling betrayed, turns on Bush himself. > I could easily picture him doing that. Wow, that would be(as my son would say) awesome! I do look for the rats to start jumping ship fairly soon though... Tom > >Who would Bush pick for VP? Maybe the Speaker, oh wait, he's under > >indictment too, and facing bigger indictments down the road with the > >Abramoff Indian scandal. > > If he's looking to be squeaky clean, it would be McCain. The repubs hate McCain, he sides with the dems too often. And McCain is leading the investigation into Abramoff that's sure to embroil Delay. > But that's not his style, and far too brainy of a move; it'll be Rice. > What will be fun is if Libby turns on Cheney in a plea bargain, and > Cheney, feeling betrayed, turns on Bush himself. > I could easily picture him doing that. It was interesting to hear Libby loudly demand a jury trial. That's a signal, and means Cheney will probably have to testify, something the administration would like to avoid. I think Libby falls on his sword expecting that'll get him a pardon. But the deals get cut once the convictions come in, it'll be great spectacle no matter what happens. And Delay's search for a non-partisan judge in Texas is kinda like searching for a virgin in Vegas. In any event, the repubs are looking to take a bath in the next election. The natives are restless. http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm Jonathan > Pat <More political bullshit elided> <plonk> Signature"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson <More political ideologue sh.t elided> They let the loons out early for the next election, or what? <plonk> Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn <More political bullshit elided> Another one for 30 days in the hole.... What is it with you people that you can't even wait for political loon season before you start spewing this bullshit? Signature"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson > <More political bullshit elided> > > Another one for 30 days in the hole.... > > What is it with you people that you can't even wait for political loon > season before you start spewing this bullshit? Your replies look like sore-loser syndrome. When your party is in trouble it's all bs. If you think speculating about the future of the VP is nonsense, you're not keeping up with current events.. Cheney is the target of the investigation. He gave the CIA info to Libby to 'plumb' criticism of the war. The latest polls of Cheney's approval puts it as low as 19%, Nixon's approval was 22% on the day he resigned. Do you know anything at all about politics? Try reading instead of spewing bitterness. The republican party is in complete disarray and it's getting worse by the day. Rice is one of the top two or three players for the republican nomination for President. "If the 2008 Republican presidential primary were held today, whom would you support if the candidates are" [see below . Condoleezza Rice 21% Rudy Giuliani 21% John McCain 19% http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm Ignorance is saying someone is wrong without saying why. Any fourth grader could reply as you have. Jonathan s >> <More political bullshit elided> >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Jonathan Every once in a while McCAll will display some credibility, if he could back off some of the childish name calling and venomous retorts he might be accepted a little more. Of course the fact that he has swallowed the party line doesn't help either. Tom Bob Haller said: >if we werent sticking our nose in the middle east, the terrorists wouldnt be interested in us. < That's quite untrue -- one of the reasons the terrorists claim to hate us (and have acted on this hatred) is the effect of our media (especially TV and movies) on the culture of the Mideast world. Unless we were willing to censor our own media, this "provocation" would remain even if we called all our troops home. Sincerely Yours, Jordan > Bob Haller said: > > >if we werent sticking our nose in the middle east, the terrorists wouldnt be interested in us. < There seems to be a consensus that the US is not generally welcome in the Middle East. I don't see it that way. The most revered of all Shiite religious leaders, the late Grand Ayatollah al Hakim, and now Sistani, support this war and the US attempt to bring democracy. The Arab League stopped an attempt by Hussein to go into exile just before the war, they wouldn't give him sanctuary. The only reason to do that is because they wanted him dead and gone, and the US to invade. Our troops and bases are welcomed in most of the countries in the region. Eighty percent of Iraq cheered, quietly...fearfully cheered, when we went in. Forgetting for now all the criticism of the various mistakes along the way, the Middle East wants these changes and, most importantly, needs them. Terrorism flows from poverty, repression and all the misery dictatorships of any kind always bring in boatloads. The long term solution to terrorism is democracy. > That's quite untrue -- one of the reasons the terrorists claim to hate > us (and have acted on this hatred) is the effect of our media > (especially TV and movies) on the culture of the Mid East world. Unless > we were willing to censor our own media, this "provocation" would > remain even if we called all our troops home. It's simpler than that. The entire region has seen decades of misery, lashing out and extremism are inevitable. I see it more as a tortured cry for help. The mistake with the wmd issue is in the notion that self-defense is the only justification for going to war. It should be automatic, taken for granted, that mass-murderers are brought to justice in any way possible. It ...is... that way within our country, and within every other civilized country in the world. Committing the crimes is justification enough. Why should it be any different with international law? He's deliberately murdered, and with malice, millions. The hypocrites in Europe forced this mistake by the pressure to justify in terms of an imminent danger, making it self-defense. Only those countries that rule by the consent of the governed deserve protection from international law. The rest deserve to be taken out one at a time, the worst first. If the world had this civilized attitude, one of the rule of law, it would be far easier to bring democracy, freedom and prosperity to the world. Our troops are sacrificing themselves for a better future ....for others. Nothing could be more noble imho. Jonathan s > Sincerely Yours, > Jordan The mid east has fought since biblical times, what makes anyone think they can fix this? > The mid east has fought since biblical times, what makes anyone think > they can fix this? Any different from anywhere else on Earth? Including the growing number of Trojan horses, fifth columns, breeding everywhere like rabbits within western civilization. Three very descriptive trends still have growing mass momentum throughout a fast aging, rotting in its body, civilization. "Dumbing down," "defining deviancy down," and "shortening attention spans." Discernment, comprehension, common sense, wisdom, vision, civility, and so on the like have very nearly disappeared as qualities throughout the world. "Rights" have replaced them. Over time every civilization accumulates clutter toward chaos. Rules, regulations, laws, controls, intrusions. A growing savagery of them expanding confusions, complications, impenetrable walls, total frustrations, angers, furies, all expanding and growing blind mindlessnesses. Four-fifths of the Earth has been roped off to expansion by mankind by the state of "All Mankind", the total state of "All Mankind," the total quality state, the totalitarian quality state, corralling mankind into militantly "organized" concentration camps encompassing one-fifth of the Earth. The entire Universe outside the Earth has been roped off to colonization and expansion by mankind as being the "province of All Mankind," the province of the noble-elite total state, the noble-elite total quality state, the noble-elite totalitarian quality state. Weapons of mass destruction are absolutely forbidden expansion to the space frontier outside the Earth by treaties, laws, policies and programs. Life is a weapon of mass destruction. Worldwide "conservation!" is the name of one game being played. Worldwide 'rationing' will automatically follow one day. "Population Control," total mind, thought and activity control, would not be nearly enough sooner than later. Instinctively mankind, and particularly civilization, is now into a "culture of death" dark age syndrome worldwide. From day one what has been the most perfect society? The dead of course. The most economical? The dead of course. The most--so-called--efficient? Nazism, and the human sacrificial state "for the good of all." Tyranny worships the "anti-war" human. "Those who would trade liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" and lose both for their pains. Those who cannot afford a frontier state "at this time" cannot afford a free state either--at this time. Thus they can afford mindless psycho-babble, "anti"-matters rather than matters, tyranny and surveillance, ever more hardening calls for unquestioning servitude to the noble 'total state' of "All Mankind," malignant ever increasing complications, frustrations to infinity and breakage, growing violent conflicts and wars. Only three U. S. Presidents in the last forty years have had any vision whatsoever of an open space frontier opening this world to a depressurizing freeing. Two of them named Bush. The "Alpha Male" (taken straight as straight can get from Aldous Huxley's dystopian horror of a "A Brave New World"), Clinton, was not the third. Clinton and his kind know that few now read. Even fewer think anything even close to deep. And even fewer are able to comprehend and realize actual meanings and the truth. A poetess even paraphrased Karl Marx in passing at his first inaugeration, knowing too few would notice it and even fewer note it. Clinton was asked aboard Air Force One coming back from Argentina what his vision was for mankind. His stated vision was one of organizing every man, woman and child for the future good of all mankind. Totalitarian tyrannies, permanent war states, martial law states, slave states, human sacrificial states, organize every man, woman, and child. GLB > ... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > GLB So ... what would you recommend? > > Clinton was asked aboard Air Force One coming back from Argentina what > his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So ... what would you recommend? I'd recommend freeing, to the maximum extent possible (short of anarchy or stepping on the rights of others), every man, woman, and child to freely pursue their own happiness as they see fit. That would come a lot closer to achieving "the future good of all mankind". It's the "organizing" bit that's scary (and it's had a very dismal record in world history). SignatureRegards, Mike Combs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Member of the National Non-sequitur Society. We may not make much sense, but we do like pizza. >> > Clinton was asked aboard Air Force One coming back from Argentina >> > what [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Regards, > Mike Combs There are only two peak ages of Man. Space age and dark age. There is the down slope to dark ages, the declines and falls, and there is the up slope to space age, the renaissances or renewals. No one should depend upon renewals being perpetual just as no one should depend upon the temperate conditions of the Earth remaining temperate perpetually. We thought the newest space age began with the first launch of a manned capsule into space. In fact it turned out to be nothing more than a false beginning. The newest space age has been frozen in the starting gate ever since. Why? Because 7 billion people, "the People," have been permitted no means of participation whatsoever (in any way, shape, or form). If the space age arrives at all, history will record SpaceShipOne as its real beginning. Therein is the only possible beginning to mass participation. There were voyages to the Americas before Columbus's. But Columbus's voyages to the Americas were the [beginning] to mass participation. The first and only beginning to opening. Those voyages tore down a great wall enclosing the Old World. Those voyages began ripping the heart out totalitarian tyranny throughout the Old World, though not tyranny, from then until the 20th century when we had shrank our world enough again to be enclosed within yet another great wall by redevelopment of totalitarianism. Tyranny will always exist even the vastness of frontier. Totalitarian tyranny, worldclass tyranny, cannot exist within vastness because it cannot encompass it all and enclose it all within itself. There is no such thing as the "free state" unless it is a synonym for the "frontier state." This does mean the Moon nor does it mean Mars. It means "Space." It means colonizing the gateway itself to the vastness of the entire Universe (the High Frontier). Only then does this our Old World become of a piece with that new frontier. This our Old World itself then a New World within the larger environ (no adding to of like dimensions, keeping exactly the same lower dimensionality, but an expansion and growth into dimensionality itself opening up the Universe's higher, or greater, dimensionalities to us). The Moon and Mars are now far too small for anything but out of mainstream constricted sideshows, and like the Earth now, like any womb or any number of wombs whatsoever regarding a human baby's ninth month of life, dimensional cul-de-sacs (dimensional traps). We are at the point of evolution of being ready to inhabit space itself in and through mass and energy systems we produce. We are at the point of evolution where we are ready to go dynamic (partially 'quantum dynamic') in large inside and with space systems rather than staying in the trap of planetary and moon relativistic dimensionalities. Our habitats and other systems in space gradually structuring up into vast energetic cellular systems themselves able to fission and go independent in evolutions. Then we will have verged on yet the next frontier and space age before us. There is no freedom except within a vastness of space and time between you and any possibility of increasing centralization. There is no freedom except within an increasing vastness in the breadth and depth and dimensionality of life always stressing to breaking point any possibility of an increasingly centralized control. Freedom is in virtually unlimited "chance" outside--regardless of your present circumstances. Virtually unlimited opportunity regardless of your otherwise competitive capabilities and capacities. A place where competitiveness is rarely highly intensive and your own capabilities and capacities (whatever they may be) can take you much farther than they ever could in the shrunken environment that now exists. The conditions for such is newness: vast unclaimed rawness, vast unclaimed resources, [enough] distance between you and government, plus increasingly numerous differing means for access to, creation from, and development of. Here on Earth, the vast opportunities that any increasingly massive emigration opens up for those who remain, multiplied in dimensionality in any and all exchange there will be with that same increasingly massive emigration. GLB I perhaps projected too far out into what I see as the best possible answer in my response. The immediate picture, the immediate world and national situations and future, is far harder to see any best path through to reach the long term. Quite a long history gives us the bad news of our world's present situation but as historian Will Durant warned, no matter how much we study of the present picture--in light of all history and human types and events leading up to the present picture--all the closest student can grasp of it is its largest aspect and see in none of the myriad little complex details the ones that could keep mass momentum from continuing the fall to which it is trending. I often wonder if it's just too late. Personally I expect no help from today's society. That overall societal direction is why both good and evil leaders must ply paths in the same direction just as in the past. It's only the seemingly small, the seemingly insignificant almost hidden from general view, that can do the things that would grow in time to turn the tide. Not taking too long a time I would pray. Such small things have been occurring in mainland China for some time now and are just beginning to take off in volume of effects to remake China from totalitarian oligarchy into monarchial Empire with a joint military and merchant prince type upper-class--a far looser system that historically would be generally agreed to by all other strata of society as the best compromise. Regardless of future turns George W. Bush has done the right thing in the Middle East in cutting a Gordian Knot with a sword rather than continuing to try to untie it. Not even Saddam Hussein knew that he did not have the wealth of weapons of mass destruction he thought he had. Tyrants are lied to voraciously by underlings who can only tell tyrants what they want to hear if they want to live a day, a week, a month or a year longer. Before discovery of the lies the tyrant might die or "the horse might sing." In this case the horse sang first because defectors, moles, and western intelligence agencies believed them also. Catherine the Great's prime minister Potemkin set up an elaborate healthy economic face to Russia for Catherine's grand tour and every bit of it was as false as false front could get. It is a lie that Hussein had no links to the world terrorist network. I remember the reporters reporting from Kurdish territory. Reporting of the fighting between Kurdish guerillas--supported by our special operations forces--and large numbers of mercenary terrorists from terrorist training camps Hussein permitted there in the north for the price of terrorizing and keeping down the Kurds. That territory was in the no-fly zone which made keeping down the Kurds hellish business for Hussein's regular army troops. Hussein's regular army troops' inability to keep the Kurds smothered even troubled Turkey and Iran at the time. In mercenary terrorists in training for terrorism elsewhere Hussein found at least a partially effective replacement for air forces that could not fly in the no fly zone. They were useful at hand and they would go on to do 'good work' on Israel and his enemies in the west afterward. Though he was not their cup of tea, and they weren't his, both had bigger enemies in common and a working truce in effect--actively working--in specified areas for their mutual benefit. The U. N. sanctions against Hussein's regime existed in name only. They had been totally corrupted by France and Germany, to name only the two biggest insidious corruptors of the sanctions among so many. Effectively the sanctions worked in reverse. They were isolating out, working against, those few nations that honored them. Effectively they were sanctions against those few nations, one of them the United States of America. That kind of corruption, that kind of Machiavellian insidiousness, pervades most of the world now--is the norm now the world over. GLB : I perhaps projected too far out into what I see as the best possible : answer in my response. The immediate picture, the immediate world and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : complex details the ones that could keep mass momentum from continuing the : fall to which it is trending. I often wonder if it's just too late. : Personally I expect no help from today's society. That overall societal : direction is why both good and evil leaders must ply paths in the same [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : would be generally agreed to by all other strata of society as the best : compromise. : Regardless of future turns George W. Bush has done the right thing in the : Middle East in cutting a Gordian Knot with a sword rather than continuing to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : Catherine's grand tour and every bit of it was as false as false front could : get. : It is a lie that Hussein had no links to the world terrorist network. I : remember the reporters reporting from Kurdish territory. Reporting of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : weren't his, both had bigger enemies in common and a working truce in : effect--actively working--in specified areas for their mutual benefit. : The U. N. sanctions against Hussein's regime existed in name only. They : had been totally corrupted by France and Germany, to name only the two [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : corruption, that kind of Machiavellian insidiousness, pervades most of the : world now--is the norm now the world over. Yes, especially in the US. Why don't you simply tell the truth? Why all the lofty propaganda, and you're really good at BTW. We went into Iraq on false pretenses to show OPEC (and Europe) that we meant business when one of its members decides to take something other than dollars (euros) for oil. Eric : GLB (snip) > Yes, especially in the US. Why don't you simply tell the truth? Why all > the lofty propaganda, and you're really good at BTW. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > : GLB No!, Eric. Everyone can argue differing answers to America and the world's ever growing, ever complicating, problems and--implacably--there will remain just one benign answer. Space colonization opening a world no longer having any room to maneuver whatsoever--nor any margins for any error whatsoever--to a larger universe, to 'Exodus'. Expanding room to maneuver. Growing margins for all kinds of errors. No!, Eric. Acquiring a place for "No!" Acquiring an exit, an escape hatch, for "Let my people go!" Rather than that your people, YOUR PEOPLE, butchered, burned alive, 85 such utterly different humans from you, such utterly alien humans to you--every man, woman, and child of them; right here in this country. Any human or human group that is insistently, persistently, determinedly, implacably different from you people regardless of all your various soft and hard "total quality..." forms of "sensitivity training," "pro-activity," "affirmative actions," "compromises" (meant and used solely to try to confuse and compromise them in their every thought and belief system: confusing and compromising even their very symbology and language they think with and speak)--anyone whosoever remains resistant to your fanatical "herd theory of all mankind" and its synonymous "unified field of life," is marked for violence in every way, shape, and form. Never!, Eric. You don't have to look as far away as the Middle East for war, Eric. For total war, Eric. For World War, Eric. You will find it as close as "No!" to you and yours. As close as "Never!" to you and yours. "We all have to live together!?" No! "Yes we have to open the space frontier sometime or other....BUT in the meantime..." NO! No "buts in the meantime!" War! "Let my people go!" Holding hands up, open, "Go, I'm not stopping you. No one is stopping you." (The Outer Space Treaty: "Space is province of all mankind" (Province of the total state (Province of the totalitarian state)). Article VI: "The activities of non-governmental entities"...(everywhere in the universe)..."shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty (Definition of totalitarianism: Everything is prohibited except that which is specifically permitted by the state.)) No! Eric. That won't fly. That won't do. Who and what have ruled, micro-managed and micro-planned and micro-controlled all activity, all things period, with regard to that frontier? Who has totally owned and brutally ruled all [space] shipbuilding on this island world? All manned shipping off this island world? All terminus away from this world? "All Mankind," ("The herd theory of all mankind"), that what and who. The Total State. The totalitarian state. "The Great Society" and "The More-Perfect Society." No!, Eric, that is not an acceptable answer from you and yours. That won't do. I would very confidently say that that answer is not acceptable to the God of the Universe, the God of Frontiers, the God behind Natural Laws, the God of Freedom, the God of the Old Testament Book of 'Exodus'. I would very confidently say that He has already been telling you and yours also, for quite some time already, "That won't fly! That won't do!" "Let the people go!" "MAKE it so!" "You and yours, MAKE IT SO!" No!, Eric. You and yours long ago formed a Leviathan, totally labyrinthine, totally insidious "Iron Curtain" between mankind and that frontier and any and all escape--except in war and death--from you and yours: from your "herd theory of all mankind." You made it, you will pay and work to "de-construct" it. One way or another, it doesn't matter what way, you and yours will be running into Earthly iron curtains you can't even see or touch much less do anything about, the down to Earth mirrorings of that one, single, Iron Curtain. You and yours, your "better world" Utopia (your "better world" Dystopia) will pay in increasingly widespread and violent complications, instabilities, breakdowns, frustrations, angers, fears, mindlessnesses, conflicts, wars... (taking in individuals, families, neighborhoods, communities large and small, nations, industries, institutions: Taking in this whole shrunken, Iron Curtain enclosed world of Man--and thus the rest of its life). No!, Eric. Higher life forms are actually different from lower life forms. Higher life forms have vastly more internal, integral, differences within life form (within species). It's the only reason we can even imagine "alienness"--all the way to the ultimate alienness in matter human / anti-matter human. The very last difference, the nakedly singular difference left if and when all other differences have been eradicated from Man through totalitarian tyranny's "multi-cultural" "sensitivity training" inherent to its total quality organization, management and control of humanity...matter human / anti-matter human. The ultimate war and extinction. No!, Eric. There is an ultra-thin line existing between the qualities of civilization and savagery. We think we are increasing civilization by an ever increasing rule and regulation of Man. Think hard about it: the most ruled and regulated humanity alive, always from within, is savage criminal gangs. We think we can create, evolve, a great divide between civilization and savagery in some form of ultra-civilized state (the fanatical socialist [everythingness] state). But nature always raises its stakes rebalancing nature precisely. The ultra-savage state (the fanatical socialist [nothingness] state). The cosmological constant? An ultra-thin line. Those ancient practical Greeks really knew their stuff. Even earlier, the wisemen who thought upon a Babel of all mankind; its singularly confused tower of psycho-babble: its confusion of all mankind (every time whatsoever attempted, its fission of "all" from every attempted fusion of "all"). No!, Eric. With everything else we've evolved, we've evolved "complexity." We've increased "complexity" millions fold in an increasingly dynamic magnitude. It demanded more and more room, more margins, two million years ago. That demand for room, for margins, has increased, evolved, grown, to an entire solar system's, if not universe's, worth of more and greater dimensions for it. Complexity has a life all its own. A life all its own that doesn't like Iron Curtains. A life all its own that is inimical to Iron Curtains (that is inimical to tyrannical herd theories of "all"; to tyrannical unified fields of "all"; to increasingly limitless rule (rules) and regulation (regulations)). GLB : (snip) : > Yes, especially in the US. Why don't you simply tell the truth? Why all : > the lofty propaganda, and you're really good at BTW. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : > : > : GLB : No!, Eric. : Everyone can argue differing answers to America and the world's ever : growing, ever complicating, problems and--implacably--there will remain just : one benign answer. Space colonization opening a world no longer having any : room to maneuver whatsoever--nor any margins for any error whatsoever--to a : larger universe, to 'Exodus'. Expanding room to maneuver. Growing margins : for all kinds of errors. : No!, Eric. : Acquiring a place for "No!" Acquiring an exit, an escape hatch, for "Let : my people go!" Rather than that your people, YOUR PEOPLE, butchered, burned : alive, 85 such utterly different humans from you, such utterly alien humans : to you--every man, woman, and child of them; right here in this country. : Any human or human group that is insistently, persistently, determinedly, : implacably different from you people regardless of all your various soft and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : theory of all mankind" and its synonymous "unified field of life," is marked : for violence in every way, shape, and form. : Never!, Eric. : You don't have to look as far away as the Middle East for war, Eric. For : total war, Eric. For World War, Eric. You will find it as close as "No!" to : you and yours. As close as "Never!" to you and yours. : "We all have to live together!?" No! Then you'd had better use that nuke after we get one used on us. And this time no fooling around. : "Yes we have to open the space frontier sometime or other....BUT in the : meantime..." NO! No "buts in the meantime!" War! "Let my people go!" : Holding hands up, open, "Go, I'm not stopping you. No one is stopping : you." (The Outer Space Treaty: "Space is province of all mankind" (Province [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : State. The totalitarian state. "The Great Society" and "The More-Perfect : Society." Please answer your rhetorical questions. : No!, Eric, that is not an acceptable answer from you and yours. That won't : do. I would very confidently say that that answer is not acceptable to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : quite some time already, "That won't fly! That won't do!" "Let the people : go!" "MAKE it so!" "You and yours, MAKE IT SO!" Sounds like what the mullahs tell Muslim folk about Allah and why killing infidels is justified. I am pantheistic and see radical muslims no different than any other religious radicals. : No!, Eric. You and yours long ago formed a Leviathan, totally : labyrinthine, totally insidious "Iron Curtain" between mankind and that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : institutions: Taking in this whole shrunken, Iron Curtain enclosed world of : Man--and thus the rest of its life). I saw more socialistic behavior in Congress yesterday in Big Oil, which you defend. Physican, heal thyself! Conservatism these days supports the party notion of "iron curtain" moreso than does any other entity in America. : No!, Eric. Higher life forms are actually different from lower life forms. : Higher life forms have vastly more internal, integral, differences within [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : its total quality organization, management and control of humanity...matter : human / anti-matter human. The ultimate war and extinction. Does a higher life form actually think that its creator is in its own image, or is that the notion of a mistaken lower life form? Please answer the question. : No!, Eric. There is an ultra-thin line existing between the qualities of : civilization and savagery. We think we are increasing civilization by an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : psycho-babble: its confusion of all mankind (every time whatsoever : attempted, its fission of "all" from every attempted fusion of "all"). Stop saying things like "the brotherhood of man"? You seem to couch your notion of socialism in religion, never having to defend it that way, just blame others for being it. Convenient. : No!, Eric. With everything else we've evolved, we've evolved "complexity." : We've increased "complexity" millions fold in an increasingly dynamic [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : tyrannical unified fields of "all"; to increasingly limitless rule (rules) : and regulation (regulations)). Do you not see how religion and socialism coincide? Think objectively here as this may even include your own religion. Eric : GLB > : > : > "Mike Combs" <mikecombs@nospam.com_chg_nospam_2_ti> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 207 lines] > > : GLB What liberty is is the liberty to choose your own tyranny (individual, group, nation, world, and universe). What freedom is is the horizons, the frontiers, the space, the time, outside and between them all where they all fade--each from all others. Increase the numbers of these, increase the [chances] for freedom (thus freedom itself). Will Durant wrote in The Lessons of History that freedom and equality are sworn and everlasting enemies, and when one prevails the other dies. The one thing Durant never recognized for all his long lifelong study was physical frontier's vastness of resource. [Physical] vastness practically merges freedom and equality to one, single, entity. Physical vastness enlarges opportunity and numbers of opportunities...vastly. Such vastness levels every field vastly. Such vastness levels economics and societies vastly. Michel de Crevecouer in his "Essays of an American Farmer", 1782, wrote of this very thing regarding the then vastness of America, in passing in one of his essays. Arrival in physical vastness does things to mental faculties. To the vastest majority of arrivals it is the beginning of enlarging possibilities, thus enlarging thought. Thus a growing capacity for bigger and better and clearer thinking, bigger and better work and works: bigger and better energies and creations. The big loser in acquiring frontier vastness was and always will be One Worldism (therefore centralism): hellishly--really hellishly--relativistic all in oneness. There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. GLB : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. Prove it. Signature"This philosophy of hate, of religious and racial intolerance, with its passionate urge toward war, is loose in the world. It is the enemy of democracy; it is the enemy of all the fruitful and spiritual sides of life. It is our responsibility, as individuals and organizations, to resist this." -- Mary Heaton Vorse > : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. > > Prove it. I don't have to. It isn't also called "having faith" for nothing. You may think you responded to a Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc., or even their anti's in some Big Banger, Big Cruncher, or Big Ripper, (all the apocalyptic cosmological 'Biggees' in the final analysis also being fanatical worshippers of Orwell's "Big Brother" state (Huxley's "World Control" state) closer to home whether they choose to realize it or not), but you didn't. I have faith in "History" and "Natural Law(s)" and repetitiveness and constants. I'm Infinity-minded, extremely amenable to the four-dimensionality of Infinity (as I've worked it out to have to my own satisfaction), like to think that I can think both outside and inside the box at will -- even to the point of a running parallelism, and I have been almost monotonously classified by different people in differing places and situations, people with respected credentials I've happened across in my careers, as being "unique," and very much an "Outsider." I came to a realization of 'God' pyramidically over time through many various other studies I thought quite unrelated. I'm a voracious reader in several fields and I bother to think about [just about] everything I read, plus -- almost instinctively now -- the probable intelligence, intellectual, philosophical, and emotional makeup of every author I read (no matter their field). I realized 'Intelligent Design' to a Cosmic All of Universe decades ago, long before others tracking along similar lines formalized a title for the probability. You demanded I "prove it." Were it that simple! Your demand proved your too simple, too boxed, too lesser dimensioned, and could never comprehend -- could never hold in mind all at once -- any of the many dimensioned pictures I would have to paint for you. Thus did ancient wisemen, ancient complex thinkers, paint two-dimensional simpler pictures for simpler people and have to rely on proofs in eventualities they could predict, and those people they painted for "having faith." God is too simple for you "to see." In other words, too hellishly complex for you "to see." God is a matter of 'what' rather than 'who'. Your demand is for some kind of proof of 'who'. You don't realize the only real meaning to the term and entity of "naked singularity." A Creator that [is] its Creation, inseparably so -- nakedly singular A Creation that [is] its Creator, indivisibly so -- nakedly singular. We only realize creators [in] or [through] their creations or creations [in] or [through] creators. Not quite the same thing. Never quite the same thing. GLB > > : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. > > > > Prove it. > > I don't have to. It isn't also called "having faith" for nothing. True. Reminds me a bumper sticker I saw today... "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind." Had a nice graphic too of a brain with a flat brainwave superimposed on it... ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: | | joe@strout.net http://www.macwebdir.com | `------------------------------------------------------------------' >> > : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a thinking mind." Had a nice graphic too of a brain with a flat > brainwave superimposed on it... A thinking mind is a reasonably open mind. Leaves out the maker of the sticker. Apparently leaves you out too. G, EM, SI, and WI, are also references to "fundamentalism." Apparently stopping a thinking mind. All search for the fundamental is fundamentalism. All of it must stop the thinking mind. Or are you just being selective? As in selective "tolerance." Some of the most viciously intolerant people I've seen in action today are the ones screaming for "tolerance." Now they are either mindless "useful idiots" or cunning savages with a most tyrannical agenda leading mobs of mindless useful idiots to totalitarian state's cattle pens. What is a fundamentalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim, to you and yours? Anyone who wears their religion on their sleeve, such as astronaut John Glenn at least did at one time among others. Such as many of America's founding fathers so obviously did. Such as Abraham Lincoln so obviously did. Such as Martin Luther King did, not to even mention the Jews' brilliant Moses, their brilliant Maccabees, and so on. Robert E. Lee. Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson.... Not all fundamentalist Christians, Jews, or Muslims are Usama bin-Ladens. What of the anti-religion cultists, such as Adolf Hitler and so many of his cronies and mindless sycophants were? What of the out and out athiests such as Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? Slaughter city, one and all. What of the mindless "culture of death" that has been working so hard to take control in the U. S. for the last thirty years and more? The vast majority of fundamentalist Christians and Jews I know of are very amenable to Man in Space. They sort think of the Universe as God's table of plenty, or God's Country, or simply the heavens. The vast majority of "better world" athiests and socialists are for keeping Man pinned to the Earth. They are hostile in the extreme to any possibility of Man, especially Christians, Jews, or Muslims, etc., getting loose in that uncontrollable vastness and escaping the iron grip of the better world's Big Brother World Control. Socialism will always work to make itself completely escapeless. Therefore it breeds anti-socialists the world over like rabbits. It is then the Socialists who are utterly trapped in the escapeless trap of their own totally mindless making. GLB :> : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. :> :> Prove it. : : I don't have to. Then it isn't a 'scientific theory' and should be kept in church where it belongs. Signature"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn > :> : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. > :> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Then it isn't a 'scientific theory' and should be kept in church where > it belongs. Leaving the public arena of ideas totally to you and yours. No competing belief systems to yours, except those carefully selected by you and yours to be strawmen, whatsoever allowed anywhere in the world outside of a few square feet of church walls here and there. You and yours have already been intrusive, invasive, so to subvert, even there. No! You must realize that you have yourself created a basis for total war...for World War. There will be such a cry for individual freedom, and for individual community and nation choice, in the world it will turn your Big Brother World Control state spines to jello from quaking. This country is 85% Christian according to the latest censuses. Don't tell me they aren't to be allowed to, or should not be allowed to, talk the talk and walk the walk of Christianity anywhere in the public arena of competitive belief systems within the borders of the United States. Nor Jews, nor Muslims. That the public street and square, whole city and countryside anywhere and everywhere, belongs totally to the 5% of the population that is you and yours. You've about had your day even the masses of "useful idiots" among them. Even the useful idiots are growing horrified with your schools, your mass infanticide you call pro-choice "abortion," your indoctrinating and pushing even their youngest school-age children into promiscuous sex and homosexuality, your calling them every foul and repugnant name in the book with all too total impunity, and last but not least your growing numbers of laws meant to bar Christians, as Christians, from any meaningful connections to the State that now all too often -- in all too many ways -- rules rather than governs them. The State you and yours have made is a state of ever increasing horrors to ever increasing numbers of people. Frustration and anger are no longer building up. Fury now has replaced them in building up. But you and yours are just too arrogantly tyrannical. You will just blindly keep on sowing the wind until there is nothing for it but to reap an inevitable whirlwind. GLB : > :> : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. : > :> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : > Then it isn't a 'scientific theory' and should be kept in church where : > it belongs. : Leaving the public arena of ideas totally to you and yours. No competing : belief systems to yours, except those carefully selected by you and yours to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : nation choice, in the world it will turn your Big Brother World Control : state spines to jello from quaking. Big Brother will be your religious leader. The irony with all your posts is the aspect of hating one thing and loving another, all the while they are manifestations of the same thing! : This country is 85% Christian according to the latest censuses. Don't tell : me they aren't to be allowed to, or should not be allowed to, talk the talk [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : countryside anywhere and everywhere, belongs totally to the 5% of the : population that is you and yours. Ours, exclude no one, including that 5% and then and only them will you truly understand the First Amendment. : You've about had your day even the masses of "useful idiots" among them. : Even the useful idiots are growing horrified with your schools, your mass [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : to the State that now all too often -- in all too many ways -- rules rather : than governs them. What you're saying is that Socialism is okay only if it is Christian Socialism. : The State you and yours have made is a state of ever increasing horrors to : ever increasing numbers of people. Frustration and anger are no longer : building up. Fury now has replaced them in building up. But you and yours : are just too arrogantly tyrannical. You will just blindly keep on sowing the : wind until there is nothing for it but to reap an inevitable whirlwind. Yes, when Socialism and Christianity merge as one, then will you be truly happy. Eric : GLB (snip) > Ours, exclude no one, including that 5% and then and only them will you > truly understand the First Amendment. > > Eric You do not have the right to make the 95% angry and ever angrier, at least not in this country yet. You do not have the right to even begin to infuriate the vast majority, at least not in this country yet. You do not have absolute veto power over the 95% or even the 85% majority regardless of what people like Michael Newdow say. Some on the judiciary are just beginning to realize the breadth and depth of the sea of quicksand the judiciary have buried themselves in by way of their setting up so many imposed systems from the bench by which any judiciary ruled "privileged" minority, once ruled as such, can flower and grow from the seed planted in utterly unintended powers throughout the national grid to the point of literally having the power to over power and over rule the majority virtually at will no matter how vast or how angry. There is a vast list of things now not even on the law books for which a common otherwise law abiding man or woman can seized by the police and put behind bars. There has always been a small amount of this kind of thing present in the society but it grown by magnitudes under political correctness until it is now totally out of control. And, every one of those held for "No Crime" now behind bars for even an hour for a disallowed look, a disallowed word, or any other sort of disallowed action or even just seeming action (a twitch from just a possible disallowed thought), knows instantly when the jail door clangs shut on them that something is horribly wrong here. The number of grabs of such people has been growing for decades. Proliferating and multiplying in proliferation. During the nineties thought police went after entire groups, entire organizations of people, combing their books, combing their files, combing their lists, looking for anything in the material that even hinted of an impropriety. It only stopped when even liberal commentators began to wander out loud and in print (because of its sheer size and sheer pointedness) what was going on. New York city social liberals didn't even bother with the Constitution when they went after the children of Hasidic (?) Jews. The crap hit the fan so big, so hard and so fast the attempt to seize and process those Jewish children into the Socialist Indoctrination System died before it was even born. The attempts to seize, to take over control of, therefore take over the indoctrination of, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America began. The Girl Scouts caved and that organization has shrank because of it, from what I understand. The Boy Scouts did not and have actually expanded because of their implacable stand under all the hate, all the attempts to ostracize or legally isolate them from the society at large, by the 5%. Anti-racism racism, anti-sexism sexism, anti-bigotry bigotry, and so on, could never even begin to end racism, sexism, bigotry or any the like fringe spin-offs of evolution of these in any life system anywhere in the Universe whatsoever. The means will always be the end. All you and yours got for all your effort was class war, a U. S. caste system on the order of India's historic "caste system," permanently privileged minority classes. All you got is confused individuals, shattering families, shattering communities, shattering nations, and a doomsday weapon you and yours have fashioned, a shattering world. You've slapped and hammered the good people of the world pounding at them that their society "is the problem." You've coddled and pampered and raised to no end that can be discerned the criminal of every stripe and rung of the ladder and the bottom feeder of every race, sex, society, economy....of every stripe and rung of the ladder. They are now most everywhere in the so-called [civilized] world the "more equal than equal" among all the so-called "equal" of the world. There is the "consensus of most." It is called "democracy," its tyranny sometimes mitigated in "republic." Then there is the so-called "consensus of all," the consensus of one, the veto power of one, the power of one, the inevitable, inexorable, rule of the least but loudest. The cry, "Consensus of all!" appeased, compromised for, is a direct path to the end of all thinking outside the box, the end of all action outside the box, the end of vision, enlightenment, reason, logic, wisdom, common sense, freedom, liberty, equality, frontiers, wealth creation, democracy, republic, unity, what-have-you; and last but not least, the reach of order itself--the end of civilization. GLB : (snip) : > Ours, exclude no one, including that 5% and then and only them will you : > truly understand the First Amendment. : > : > Eric : You do not have the right to make the 95% angry and ever angrier, at least : not in this country yet. You do not have the right to even begin to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : literally having the power to over power and over rule the majority : virtually at will no matter how vast or how angry. At one time the earth was flat and the sun went arouind that flat earth, and well over 95% stated so. I an free country, everyone is entitled their opinion about God, one way or the other and percentages be damned. : There is a vast list of things now not even on the law books for which a : common otherwise law abiding man or woman can seized by the police and put [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] : stand under all the hate, all the attempts to ostracize or legally isolate : them from the society at large, by the 5%. Fascinating, you preach against socialism and political correctness by embracing it by speaking about 95%, of which you are one that should have the voice, against the 5%, of which you are not, that should be stifled. Socialism strives for the 95% of which you embrace! : Anti-racism racism, anti-sexism sexism, anti-bigotry bigotry, and so on, : could never even begin to end racism, sexism, bigotry or any the like fringe [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : most everywhere in the so-called [civilized] world the "more equal than : equal" among all the so-called "equal" of the world. All that you state simply means you have no faith. : There is the "consensus of most." It is called "democracy," its tyranny : sometimes mitigated in "republic." Then there is the so-called "consensus of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : what-have-you; and last but not least, the reach of order itself--the end of : civilization. We live in a Plutocratic Oligarchy. Have you checked the incomes of the folks in DC that run things? Eric : GLB (snip) > We live in a Plutocratic Oligarchy. Have you checked the incomes of the > folks in DC that run things? > > Eric > > : GLB Some have grown to realize that if you study enough history, non-revisionist history that is, clear patterns begin to emerge out of it. There are no people, no "folks," in those patterns. There are no pyramids, castles, village market stalls, Wal-Marts, Roman war engines, German Stukas, horse drawn carts or Moon landers. Just a few clear patterns. Once you've seen those patterns for yourself -- the physics -- you've seen the Law. It is the most bitter pill in the Universe. Yet anyone who has ever digested that pill knows that no one of them, no exceptions, would ever trade it for anything else that could ever exist. There are patterns of frontier opening and patterns of frontier closing. Each has its own sets of physics, its own sets of laws. Short breakout into the newest space frontier, the second set is implacably in play. Closing won't stop where there is no new opening (no renewal of opening). There is no suspension in animation. No suspension in direction. No suspension in course. And it isn't pretty. It isn't called decline and fall, and dark age, for nothing. Retrench, retrench, retrench, retrench, retrench...it doesn't stop backing. There is a different kind of ultimate winner, a different kind of ultimate winning, a different kind of last man standing, in ages of decline and fall. GLB : "Eric Chomko" <echomko_at_@polaris.umuc.edu> wrote in message : (snip) : > We live in a Plutocratic Oligarchy. Have you checked the incomes of the : > folks in DC that run things? : Some have grown to realize that if you study enough history, : non-revisionist history that is, clear patterns begin to emerge out of it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : that pill knows that no one of them, no exceptions, would ever trade it for : anything else that could ever exist. Para-politics leading to deep politics? : There are patterns of frontier opening and patterns of frontier closing. : Each has its own sets of physics, its own sets of laws. Short breakout into [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : of ultimate winning, a different kind of last man standing, in ages of : decline and fall. The power elite used to use grain as the de facto currency, today it is oil... Eric : GLB :> :> : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. :> :> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] :be strawmen, whatsoever allowed anywhere in the world outside of a few :square feet of church walls here and there. Religion isn't a "competing belief system" to science. It's just a different one. : This country is 85% Christian according to the latest censuses. Don't tell :me they aren't to be allowed to, or should not be allowed to, talk the talk :and walk the walk of Christianity anywhere in the public arena of :competitive belief systems within the borders of the United States. But you're not talking about a "competing belief system" by your own admission. If you don't have to prove it it isn't science, so it isn't a competing belief system. I suggest you "walk the walk" and stop using the products of the science that you deny and use something out of your "competing belief system". Let me know when you manage to get that first Usenet article posted purely by prayer without a computer or any of that 'competing' impedimenta. : You've about had your day even the masses of "useful idiots" among them. :Even the useful idiots are growing horrified with your schools, your mass [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] :are just too arrogantly tyrannical. You will just blindly keep on sowing the :wind until there is nothing for it but to reap an inevitable whirlwind. Oh, I see. You're just a lunatic. Never mind, then. <plonk> Signature"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson You really haven't worked out all of the ground that "totalitarian state" covers, have you? Or that it attempts to merge, and/or submerge into mergers, more and more things for a supposed greater simplicity of control. Religion, science, and the state itself, are automatics for forceable merger in any form of totalitarian state whatsoever. In a vacuum, Big Brother (Secular Humanism) is the religion. It is not pantheistic, not polytheistic, it is monotheistic. Its one true God is itself and it will inevitably begin and inexorably escalate systematically operating upon that belief system in the complete vacuum it has enclosed itself within. It is all inclusive, therefore it is all exclusive, a complete vacuum perfect for the assumption of absolute power. It will coolly and consistently claim omniscience and omnipotence, all the while it is doing so -- out of sight, out of mind -- trying to rewrite history when inevitably the roof caves in. It will claim all opposition to its omniscience and omnipotence is ignorant or blind, pure and simple, and obviously so. All other "competing belief systems" eventually array themselves in opposition against this standalone -- out of all control -- bull in a china shop in all out total war. Edmund Burke once wrote, "When evil men combine, good men must associate." When evil COMBINES, good ASSOCIATES. It will always be perplexing even to the most hidden, most insidious, tyrannies possible how that is managed. How it just happens out of 'nowhere'. GLB > It is all inclusive, >therefore it is all exclusive, a complete vacuum perfect for the assumption >of absolute power. Ladies and gentleman, a vacuous nothingness is about to seize power- once again we see the truth in the concept that absolute power really does suck. > It will coolly and consistently claim omniscience and >omnipotence, all the while it is doing so -- out of sight, out of mind -- >trying to rewrite history when inevitably the roof caves in. > If it had formed the roof in the shape of an dome it would better be able to withstand the suckiness of its quest for power. That, and hiring Karl Rove as a political consultant.... Remember....this war is John Kerry's fault. Pat : You really haven't worked out all of the ground that "totalitarian state" : covers, have you? Or that it attempts to merge, and/or submerge into : mergers, more and more things for a supposed greater simplicity of control. I picture the Catholic church during the time of Galileo. : Religion, science, and the state itself, are automatics for forceable merger : in any form of totalitarian state whatsoever. In a vacuum, Big Brother : (Secular Humanism) is the religion. Secular Humanism has nothing to do with a central single point of control other than the human spirit. If you think THAT is Big Brother, then you're warped. : It is not pantheistic, not polytheistic, it is monotheistic. The problem with a standard God is that there are so many interpretations that no one can agree on, might as well acknowledge all of them. : Its one true God is itself and it will inevitably begin : and inexorably escalate systematically operating upon that belief system in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : eventually array themselves in opposition against this standalone -- out of : all control -- bull in a china shop in all out total war. Yes, your belief is that there is one God and he is on your side, necessarily. Like you say to me so easily, "no he isn't!" Eric : Edmund Burke once wrote, "When evil men combine, good men must associate." : When evil COMBINES, good ASSOCIATES. It will always be perplexing even to : the most hidden, most insidious, tyrannies possible how that is managed. How : it just happens out of 'nowhere'. : GLB >: There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. > >Prove it. > I'm still arguing in favor of "Ignorant Design"- that there are far too many strange and badly designed organisms around to be accounted for by random chance or evolution, and that "God" is basically a six-year-old intellect given access to a "Gilbert Recombinant DNA Set" without adult supervision. Consider the lowly - yet ancient and highly successful - Silverfish. It can only live in a damp area...yet if it becomes wet it immediately dies. Would evolution design something like that? Hell, no! But you can see "God" coming up with something like that as an early experiment: "Pretty! Shiny! Move REAL FAST! DID REAL GOOD! MAKE MORE SHINY THINGS NOW!!!" ...and next thing you know, there's an iridescent jawless fish sitting there on the lab table. You know what probably caused the Permian and Cretaceous mass extinctions? Someone's parents telling Someone to clean up his damn bedroom, that's what. That's why those major extinction events occur on a fairly regular time-table...it's not "Nemesis- The Death Star" orbiting near the Sun and starting a cometary bombardment again; it's Mom orbiting near Junior's bedroom on Sunday morning, and the Kid not being allowed to go out to play until at least half of that crap ends up down the toilet or outside in the trash can. Junior had just wrapped up lab book chapter five: "Let's Make Big Things With Big Teeth!" by the end of the Cretaceous, and chapter six: "Let's Make Things That Can Blow Themselves Up!" promises to at least add a unique self-cleaning aspect to the whole situation that has been missing till now. ;-) Pat > : There is a God. There is 'Intelligent Design' to the Universe. > > Prove it. The ironic thing about this debate is that the stronger the belief in Darwinian evolution, the stronger the belief in God and intelligent design. Complexity science extends the basic processes of evolution to the physical universe. Which then provides a continuous view of the evolution from geology to biology. This gives a clearer view of creation or evolution as an inherent property of the universe. In today's paper blasting the Kansas decision, the head of I think the academy of science defined science as that which is rigorous and testable. Fine. But that which is testable is only a small part of the universe. Things like ideas, love, randomness and emergent properties are not repeatable or testable in a scientific way. Yet science includes Darwin, which purports to explain the nature of our existence. It's rather arrogant of science to include evolution into the realm of deterministic or provable science when the processes involved often include random or subjective qualities. The intelligent design movement is challenging some of the most basic assumptions of science. They are correct for doing so even if their exact methods may not be very well developed. They are correct for insisting there's something more to our existence than rigorous testable science can reveal. Jonathan s > The ironic thing about this debate is that the stronger the > belief in Darwinian evolution, the stronger the belief > in God and intelligent design. This must be some meaning of the word "ironic" with which I was hitherto unaware. From context, I'd guess it to be a synonym for "false". > > The ironic thing about this debate is that the stronger the > > belief in Darwinian evolution, the stronger the belief > > in God and intelligent design. > > This must be some meaning of the word "ironic" with which I was hitherto > unaware. From context, I'd guess it to be a synonym for "false". But what if it's true, imagine for a minute it is, that the underlying process of increasing order for both galaxies and solar systems are the same for natural selection and Darwinian evolution. What if the source of increasing order for the non-living and living worlds are the same??? Wouldn't that make Darwinian evolution only a special case of a broader creative process? Wouldn't that change your view on the universe and our place? Jonathan s > But what if it's true, imagine for a minute it is, that the underlying > process of increasing order for both galaxies and solar systems [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Wouldn't that make Darwinian evolution only a special case > of a broader creative process? No, it would not, because Darwinian evolution does not in any way imply a "creative process" -- or even "increasing order". > Wouldn't that change your view on the universe and our place? If it were to be demonstrated that Darwinian evolution is one manifestation of a general creative process, I would indeed have to revise my understanding of the nature of the universe. But that's only because I presently understand evolution to have no particular goal of increasing complexity or order. > > But what if it's true, imagine for a minute it is, that the underlying > > process of increasing order for both galaxies and solar systems [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > because I presently understand evolution to have no particular goal of > increasing complexity or order. Chaos theory has grown into complexity science. And the idea that increasing and spontaneous order is an inherent property of the universe, both non-living and living, is the central theme. The basic idea is the random interactions, when sufficiently complex, spontaneously or self-organize. And that this tendency applies to any complex dynamic system. The second law creates greater variability and interaction by breaking things down. Which creates just the proper conditions for self-organization to occur. Life would define the highest or most complex form of this tendency. But the remarkable thing about this idea is that random interactions have always been seen as a barrier to increasing order. Complexity science theorizes just the opposite, that random interactions are the source of all order. Order that's not only spontaneous, but constantly increasing over time. This changes everything imho. To quote a review of one of the founders of this science. At Home in the Universe The Search for the Laws of Self-Organization and Complexity Stuart Kauffman Description A major scientific revolution has begun, a new paradigm that rivals Darwin's theory in importance. At its heart is the discovery of the order that lies deep within the most complex of systems, from the origin of life, to the workings of giant corporations, to the rise and fall of great civilizations. And more than anyone else, this revolution is the work of one man, Stuart Kauffman, a MacArthur Fellow and visionary pioneer of the new science of complexity. We all know of instances of spontaneous order in nature--an oil droplet in water forms a sphere, snowflakes have a six-fold symmetry. What we are only now discovering, Kauffman says, is that the range of spontaneous order is enormously greater than we had supposed. Indeed, self-organization is a great undiscovered principle of nature. But how does this spontaneous order arise? Kauffman contends that complexity itself triggers self-organization, or what he calls "order for free," that if enough different molecules pass a certain threshold of complexity, they begin to self-organize into a new entity--a living cell. Kauffman uses the analogy of a thousand buttons on a rug--join two buttons randomly with thread, then another two, and so on. At first, you have isolated pairs; later, small clusters; but suddenly at around the 500th repetition, a remarkable transformation occurs--much like the phase transition when water abruptly turns to ice--and the buttons link up in one giant network. We learn how the science of complexity extends Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection: that self-organization, selection, and chance are the engines of the biosphere. Indeed, Kauffman shows that ecosystems, economic systems, and even cultural systems may all evolve according to similar general laws, that tissues and terra cotta evolve in similar ways. And finally, there is a profoundly spiritual element to Kauffman's thought. If, as he argues, life were bound to arise, not as an incalculably improbable accident, but as an expected fulfillment of the natural order, then we truly are at home in the universe. Reviews "Kauffman has done more than anyone else to supply the key missing piece of the propensity for self-organization that can join the random and the deterministic forces of evolution into a satisfactory theory of life's order. "--Stephen Jay Gould, Harvard University "Stuart Kauffman lucidly argues that, in addition to Darwinian selection, another force, the emergence of self-organized order from apparent chaos determines the beautiful systems that make up the world and cosmos. He contends that emergent order is a feature of many complex systems and general laws that may be defined from their study. It is an exciting and well-written volume. "--Barry Blumberg, Fox Chase Cancer Research Center and Nobel Laureate "Every once in a while, you read a book so powerful and with such a radical view that you realize your world is changed forever....Kauffman is a pioneer of the new science of complexity, which sees in the world of nature an inner force of its own, not mystical but scientific. This insight touches something deep in each of us, as we yearn to understand the order we see in nature. Kauffman shares his discovery with us, with lucidity, wit, and cogent argument, and we see his vision. Many will embrace it, as I did, and will gaze on the world anew."--Roger Lewin http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/LifeSciences/?view=usa&ci=0195095995 And this science is spreading quickly, a few links. http://www.cscs.umich.edu/ http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/ http://www.santafe.edu/ http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm http://www.lanl.gov/mst/ICAM/inside.html http://www.calresco.org/lucas/quantify.htm http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/Investigations.html http://www.calresco.org/ http://chaos.ph.utexas.edu/ Thanks, jonathan, I'm putting Kauffman's book on my "must read" list. Eric : > > But what if it's true, imagine for a minute it is, that the underlying : > > process of increasing order for both galaxies and solar systems [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] : > because I presently understand evolution to have no particular goal of : > increasing complexity or order. : Chaos theory has grown into complexity science. : And the idea that increasing and spontaneous order is an inherent : property of the universe, both non-living and living, is the central : theme. The basic idea is the random interactions, when sufficiently : complex, spontaneously or self-organize. And that this tendency : applies to any complex dynamic system. : The second law creates greater variability and interaction by : breaking things down. Which creates just the proper conditions : for self-organization to occur. : Life would define the highest or most complex form of this tendency. : But the remarkable thing about this idea is that random interactions : have always been seen as a barrier to increasing order. Complexity : science theorizes just the opposite, that random interactions are : the source of all order. Order that's not only spontaneous, but : constantly increasing over time. : This changes everything imho. : To quote a review of one of the founders of this science. : At Home in the Universe : The Search for the Laws of Self-Organization and Complexity : Stuart Kauffman : Description : A major scientific revolution has begun, a new paradigm that rivals Darwin's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : anyone else, this revolution is the work of one man, Stuart Kauffman, a : MacArthur Fellow and visionary pioneer of the new science of complexity. : We all know of instances of spontaneous order in nature--an oil droplet in : water forms a sphere, snowflakes have a six-fold symmetry. What we are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : what he calls "order for free," that if enough different molecules pass a certain : threshold of complexity, they begin to self-organize into a new entity--a living cell. : Kauffman uses the analogy of a thousand buttons on a rug--join two buttons : randomly with thread, then another two, and so on. At first, you have isolated : pairs; later, small clusters; but suddenly at around the 500th repetition, a : remarkable transformation occurs--much like the phase transition when water : abruptly turns to ice--and the buttons link up in one giant network. : We learn how the science of complexity extends Darwin's theory of evolution by : natural selection: that self-organization, selection, and chance are the engines : of the biosphere. : Indeed, Kauffman shows that ecosystems, economic systems, and even cultural : systems may all evolve according to similar general laws, that tissues and terra : cotta evolve in similar ways. And finally, there is a profoundly spiritual element : to Kauffman's thought. If, as he argues, life were bound to arise, not as an : incalculably improbable accident, but as an expected fulfillment of the : natural order, then we truly are at home in the universe. : Reviews : "Kauffman has done more than anyone else to supply the key missing piece : of the propensity for self-organization that can join the random and the : deterministic forces of evolution into a satisfactory theory of life's order. : "--Stephen Jay Gould, Harvard University : "Stuart Kauffman lucidly argues that, in addition to Darwinian selection, another : force, the emergence of self-organized order from apparent chaos determines : the beautiful systems that make up the world and cosmos. He contends that : emergent order is a feature of many complex systems and general laws that : may be defined from their study. It is an exciting and well-written volume. : "--Barry Blumberg, Fox Chase Cancer Research Center and Nobel Laureate : "Every once in a while, you read a book so powerful and with such a radical : view that you realize your world is changed forever....Kauffman is a pioneer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : will gaze on the world anew."--Roger Lewin : http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/LifeSciences/?view=usa&ci=0195095995 : And this science is spreading quickly, a few links. : http://www.cscs.umich.edu/ : http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/ [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : http://www.calresco.org/ : http://chaos.ph.utexas.edu/ (snip) The only problem with the Science of Complexity is that it has not yet realized the primitive base of the pyramid, the primitive base of pyramiding period, never ceases to exist anywhere or any when throughout all the process of building on or over it. Nor do any of the stepped orders of increase in complexity out of or up from the primitive, the fundamental, the base, the kernal, the core, what-have-you...the only real constancy, ever really cease to exist. As with the ultimate goal of atom smashing in particle accelerators, it has to realized by Complexity's scientists that the most alien-primitive of all is still there doing its thing, always around, always remaining in the game or there is no game (there would not be any further game). Life builds upon orders of |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message