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The Moon, LSE-CM/ISS, Venus and beyond, with He3 to burn

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Brad Guth - 16 Jan 2005 22:48 GMT
As it turns out, I'm not the one and only village idiot that's thinking
we should have been accomplishing something constructive about our
moon.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/moon_next_020923-2.html
Lunar gateway; "Spudis said that buried within NASA is a progressive
plan for placing humans back onto the Moon. NASA Exploration Team
(NExT) members at the Johnson Space Center, he said, have scripted a
breakthrough strategy."

http://www.ssi.org/body_research_update.html
"Can we discover a path that allows us to defend the Earth, as we must
do, against asteroid and comet impacts and allows us to provide
unlimited clean energy to improve our quality of life and the
environment of our planet and also allows us to settle the solar system
and begin our exploration of the rest of the universe?"

http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~mwl/publications/publications2.htm
THE INTERPLANETARY SUPERHIGHWAY; "Lunar L1 is an ideal and logical next
step for extended human presence in space beyond LEO (Low Earth Orbit).
To first order, from energy considerations, it requires only a .V of
3150 m/s to reach LL1 from a 200 km parking orbit around Earth."

This "Cal tech" site has certainly become absolutely chuck full of
proper notions associated with our moon, or at least the gravity
thereof, of what's possible to obtain in the way of achieving
short-term as well as long-term goals based upon utilizing the moon and
of its' LL1 as a gateway. This is ongoing in spite of what I've been
arguing for five years and counting that the moon needs to be fully
utilized for itself as well as per accomplishing absolutely terrific
Earth science and future moon pillaging as well as for our going to
other planets with sufficient fuel and necessary physical shielding
that can be efficiently accommodated from what the moon has to offer.

Unfortunately, before we go about obtaining any pot of lunar gold
(He3), take notice how there's still an absolute void of specific
information as to the lunar surface environment, even as to the
physical aspects of incoming space debris, and of whatever primary plus
lunar secondary contributed radiation is on behalf of impacting the LL1
zone remains as somewhat nondisclosure/taboo, as well as per the simple
knowledge of ice-melt in space (no liquid phase), and of the daunting
task and thereby knowledge base as to deploying whatever onto the moon
from any given altitude is oddly obscure if not entirely illusive, as
seemingly this gravity influence of acceleration without any
significant atmosphere as based solely upon a lunar 1r influence being
1.623 m/s/s simply hasn't been given the most basic worth of
physics-101, especially as to what such an unobstructed gravity
potential can otherwise accomplish on behalf of terraforming the moon
into sustaining an atmosphere.

Clearly my LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator) topic that I've been
posting ideas and questions upon for more than 4 years, and of the most
recent notions and arguments of our relocating ISS into the ME-L1 (LL1)
zone for somewhat safe-keeping, as in station-keeping on behalf of
mostly robotic intentions of establishing the one and only LSE, this
can't remain all that top-secret. Then as for creating our initial
tethered lunar LSE that's to secure our first outpost gateway/depot
that may eventually become the essential core of the Cal Tech
interplanetary superhighway as clearly being on the great minds of
smart folks that I believe are capable of seeing the imperative needs
as for going beyond their mere trajectory boosted benefits of lunar
gravity, by way of subsequently establishing a permanent moon-based
infrastructure (most likely deep underground), and then of the fully
operational LSE-CM/ISS that can't be far behind.

Residing deep underground is a multitasking assignment, as for the
necessary radiation shielding is only a fairly minor aspect (unless the
ground itself is excessively radioactive), since 3 meters affords 10
tonnes/m2 between yourself and whatever's radiating the moon is
certainly good enough. However, physically shielding yourself and
instruments from relatively slight impacts arriving at 30+km/s will
likely require 100+ meters of solid basalt, that is if there's to be a
reasonable margin of structural integrity should a 100 kg worth of
something decide to join your lunar abode, or even from a displaced
secondary shard could be worth an array of 10+ meter impressions
depending on secondary trajectories that'll have nearly the fullest
average of 1.6 m/s/s as to accelerating upon their return to the
surface, thus it doesn't require all that great of impact
bounced/deflected item obtaining sufficient altitude in order to impose
a significant death sentence to whomever's not well shielded by
sufficient mass.

Of somewhat greater velocity afforded by the likes of speedy meteors
having a potential closing speed of advance that can exceed 100 km/s
may involve a rather nasty depth of several km as clearly recorded of
relatively small craters. Doing the KE=.5MV2 formula, and considering
the insignificant atmosphere as to moderate, much less deflect
anything, chances of surviving the surface are not all that terrific
unless there's a great deal of structural integrity situated between
yourself and of whatever is being gathered by the moon.

Even the basalt/silica LSE tether(s) will need to be redundant
(multiple tethers) so that at any given time it'll be unlikely that
more than one tether element will be severed and/or damaged by what's
bound to come along sooner or later, not to mention that little pesky
factor of human error.

Fortunately, there's no shortage of easily available process energy at
ME-L1(LL1), as solar influx energy is ample, especially upon employing
large surface deployed sterling thermal conversions, as in how many
megawatts do you want?. Spare energy is stored effectively within
counter-rotating flywheels that'll operate as being interactively
maintained within nearly the exact nullification point, thus near-zero
gravity and otherwise the least amount of friction insures unlimited
capacity and somewhat extremely efficient energy holding capability
that should not lose more than 0.0001% per year, unless ceramic
bearings are frequently needed as to backup the magnetic bearings. In
other words, storing each terawatt of energy should not lose but a
megawatt per year.

I'm talking big, as in if need be megatonnes worth of flywheel mass,
although whatever size, mass and even shape are almost nonissues, as
are the indications of extracting terawatts from the tether dipole
configuration that's sustaining a large service platform to within
50,000 km of Earth (closer if need be) that's hosting a dozen or so 100
GW laser cannons for transferring such energy to dozens of potential
Earth receiving stations established around the world, as this isn't
without reasonable expectations of achieving the goal of delivering
clean energy to Earth. The beam lethal aspects of somewhat serious
consequence no-fly zones that are continually on the move may be the
only drawback, as otherwise the star-wars potential and NEO defense
aspects are certainly suggesting positive alternatives.

We've been informed for decades of the likely existence of He3 (helium
3) that's supposedly just sitting within the lunar surface, mostly
within the first meter or so of piled high accumulations and/or at most
into the first few meters of solid lunar basalt that simply needs to be
robotically processed on location, robotically transported up to the
LSE-CM/ISS for final packaging and deployment back to Earth, everything
transpiring efficiently within the slight gravity of the moon, as well
as the free energy aspects of gravity and careful timing of package
release so that a given sphere of composite basalt arrives safely onto
Earth (ocean drop zone), as there's really no need of any guidance
systems or even parachute deployments if each containment sphere that's
accommodating processed He3 is that of a robust basalt fiber composite
that'll take the reentry heat and survive the efficient splash-down
format of delivery. As plan-B, the tether dipole element trailing
towards mother Earth could act as a fly-by-wire sort of sphere
guidance, so that if need be the final release point being 50,000 km
isn't leaving all that much error.

Of course, there's much other value as to terraforming the moon into
sustaining an atmosphere. Bombarding the lunar surface with whatever is
going to vaporise lunar basalt by a factor of perhaps 1e6:1, as it
seems this isn't all that complicated nor energy consuming if the lunar
basalt itself were being utilized. Robotically extracting chunks of
basalt that would be transported up the LSE tether, whereas at any
given point deployed by a slight push or perhaps having dual basalt
chunks of equal mass that could push-away against each other, thus
imposing zero influence upon the tether. Whereas the resulting fall
back to the moon (due to nearly zero orbital velocity) would impact at
such absolutely terrific final velocity and subsequently vaporise into
the moon, creating relatively massive crater displacements far to
either side of the LSE installation.

Terraforming the moon by using it's own substance and the free-fall
aspects of vaporising the raw elements of basalt into becoming the bulk
of artificial atmosphere which is too heavy to being extracted by the
solar heat and 30 km/s headwinds, or even drawn away by the 600 km/s
solar winds is what make this task potentially so doable. Of released
sodium and lighter atoms are what's going to leave the lunar
environment, and not so much of the O2 and heavier elements. Because of
the solar thermal influx, our moon atmosphere will never become another
Titan, but possibly as great as .027 bar is obtainable if it's laced
with a good amount of CO2/Rn.

As to why I'm even receiving any flak about this notion is beyond good
reason, as for nearly five years I've been receiving the usual
mainstream topic and author bashings as orchestrated efforts by the
status quo cops that are still sucking up to their NASA/Apollo ruse of
the century, and that's no lie.

With your help, what I'll need to accomplish is another overall edit
and/or replacement of what has been internet published, then another go
at promoting this research and discoveries (especially about Venus)
that'll need to become addressed by others unless the mainstream is
willing to risk another 9/11. That's not an idle threat, it's a matter
of fact that if honest folks are not given fair credit and their ideas
a balanced opportunity as to being shared on behalf of benefiting
humanity, the only alternative for the resident the Skull and Bones
cultism is to wag their dogs to death, by inventing whatever WMD or
other perpetrated cold-war crapolla they think the snookered humanity
of mostly Americans and our usually dumbfounded allies will accept.
Last few times it seems to have involved the likes of TWA flight-800,
the shuttle COLUMBIA and of course 9/11, plus all of those stealth WMD
that only our insane resident warlord and of his global energy sucking
partners in crimes against humanity could see, and to think, their fat
lady hasn't even stepped on stage to sing.

I'm never certain if I've gone over the edge, as obviously others in
office have accomplished their dastardly cold-war deeds as well active
war-crimes for profit, whereas my efforts have been somewhat lacking in
collateral damage, and way short of the sorts of carnage upon the
innocent. In several ways I've been proposing the most bang for the
buck/euro, in other ways I'm suggesting the notions of investing a
trillion close to home, upon the LSE-CM/ISS in exchange for the
trillions worth of pillaging our moon for all it's worth, and of
thereby sustaining Earth while efficiently getting whatever and/or
whomever to/from the lunar surface, of also accommodating fairly large
numbers of folks within the relative sanctuary of the CM/ISS abode
that's offering 1e6 m3 worth of usable interior. Then obviously much
like Cal Tech without all the spit and polish, I'm accommodating the
various interplanetary aspects on behalf of communications and
robotics, eventually manned missions that folks can actually survive,
and secondly by way of establishing those few deep underground lunar
habitats within hollow rilles or geode pockets as biological safe-house
environments, essential should any future expedition manage to return
from the likes of Mars or Venus while biologically hosting entirely new
DNA/RNA spores and microbes that need not be tested upon Earth.

Unfortunately, it'll take pages if not volumes addressing all the
positive aspects of what our moon is good for, whereas one page is
perhaps more than enough to outline the negative aspects.

If all of this moon or LSE thinking is too much information to deal
with, as such I do have an ongoing list that's continually building
upon somewhat less complex notions, many of which need to be polished
into a few of those spendy NOVA class infomercials having the sorts of
star-wars 3D animation and custom surround-sound embellishments that'll
knock socks off. For every topic I'll be suggesting upon what's
possible, as it seems I have loads of questions that require your
feedback and hopeful contributions as to resolving a few issues. So,
please help yourself to whatever suits your interest and expertise, as
there's lots more to come.

Sorry about this wordy entro. If need be I'll repost as an abbreviated
entro topic of "The Moon, LSE-CM/ISS, Venus and beyond, w/He3 to burn".

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Nick Hull - 17 Jan 2005 23:01 GMT
OK, how do we burn He3 to produce something useful like electricity?

> As it turns out, I'm not the one and only village idiot that's thinking
> we should have been accomplishing something constructive about our
[quoted text clipped - 225 lines]
>
> Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm

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Brad Guth - 18 Jan 2005 02:00 GMT
I'd hardly call your question "one worthless statement" as offered by
Lord OM.

GOOGLE has unlimited storage capacity, thus quoting an entire topic
post is going to exactly bust their bandwidth.

Actually I'm not the fusion expert here, probably OM is, as that fool
is an expert on absolutely everything under the sun, that is as long as
it supports his cold-war love affair with anything NASA/Apollo.

Going for a search of "he3 fusion" or just include FUSION HE3 or FUSION
HELIUM-3 or just about any combination and you'll get an absolute brain
overload.

If need be, I'll do a few other searches and return with posting more
of those links. Actually several of those He3 related links will even
have the NASA stamp of approval.

http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/helium.htm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html
http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html
http://fusedweb.pppl.gov/CPEP/Chart_Pages/2.TwoFusionReactions.html
Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
Fred J. McCall - 18 Jan 2005 04:54 GMT
:OK, how do we burn He3 to produce something useful like electricity?

Aneutronic fusion reaction.

Please don't top-post.

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Scott Hedrick - 18 Jan 2005 01:45 GMT
> As it turns out, I'm

> the one and only village idiot

who confused Mars with Venus.
Brad Guth - 18 Jan 2005 20:23 GMT
Besides Helium-3(He3) and the somewhat complex fusion application
that's perhaps best intended for accomplishing this on Earth, although
eventually such clean energy may include future space expeditions and
certainly upon the moon itself as fueled along by way of processing
this extracted He3 as obtained from lunar basalt that'll yield a
surplus of O2 in the process.

Speaking a bit further of somewhat more conventional lunar energy
that's for local usage; There's the nifty prospect of raw nuclear
elements having been suggested as roughly twice the available density
as here on Earth. Then supposedly the moon offers a massive thermal
core that really isn't recessed all that many km below the surface, as
another perfectly fine source of geological energy that's apparently
worth 830°C. And of course, there is the tera joules worth of energy
differential between Earth and the moon, plus a good amount of solar
flux passing through the LSE-CM/ISS dipole element that should become
worth another energy extraction that could represent terawatts that'll
have to be stored and re-distributed from fairly massive
counter-rotating flywheels as situated about the primary tether. The
ME-L1 zone of essentially zero gravity and damn near zero friction is
absolutely ideal for such massive flywheels and their multi-terawatt
core motor/generator.

I'm still speculating upon the 4~5 terawatts of continuous lunar
recession energy, that which any sufficiently smart physics wizard
should be able to tap into, with no harm done.

There's also the viable alternative of somewhat harsh surface
environment and radiation tolerant sterling thermal energy conversions,
whereas STERLING ENGINES as based upon utilizing hydrogen(H2) as their
internal thermal transfer medium are capable of extracting 700 usable
watts/m2 (maximum thermal dynamic efficiency being 59%). However,
taking everything into account should equate to capitalizing upon 500
watt/m2.

If that 500 w/m2 doesn't sound like all that much; consider there's
none of those 'not-in-my-backyard' folks, no GreenPeace anywhere in
sight, no spotted owls nor old-growth forest to save or wetlands to
avoid, thus somewhat massive areas of auto-tracking mylar reflectors
can efficiently focus their 1.4 km/m2 worth of solar influx as raw
energy onto the sterling hydrogen boiler(s), and using the relatively
cool moon itself as the all-essential thermal heat-exchanger, if not
taking advantage of the shaded areas of craters that should become
worth -200°F.

>From a 1e6 m2 mylar reflector farm represents 500 megawatts as long as
the sun is up (I believe that represents 27.5 days worth per
installation, two or three such installations about the globe or
perhaps just one polar site is good for continuous energy). However, a
larger hydrogen boiler (thermal receiver) and taking the fullest
advantage of lots more geothermal cooling might suggest reaching 700
megawatts per 1e6 m2 farm. Keeping in mind, it should not require more
than 10 kw/soul as to accommodating each individual on the moon, or
rather as safely situated deep (100+ meters) into the moon where it's
actually not all that nasty to begin with.

My LM-1 (600t Lunar Metro Bus) is a good example of using locally
processed basalt fibers as offering a sufficient composite for insuring
the safety of a dozen brave souls, while depleting less than 25
kw/individual and hauling a serious butt load of h2o2/c12h26 for the
IRRCE that's essentially powering everything along at good speed and
sufficient range as to circumnavigate the moon (not all that complex
once you realize the moon isn't that far around, and your EPA mileage
isn't entirely in the toilet while you're managing perhaps 15 km/hr,
twice that once a path has been established).
Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
Brad Guth - 19 Jan 2005 00:43 GMT
Instead of accomplishing anything on behalf of our moon, for all of one
red-cent or even a mill on the dollar/euro, we could just go all-out
for Titan.

Of course this will work; Applied technology of a sufficient spacecraft
and reusable shuttle method of getting our team(s) to/from the likes of
the Titan surface should be entirely doable. All that's needed besides
another trillion bucks/euros plus another spendy decade of R&D plus
whatever travel time is a nifty way of launching sufficient shielding
on behalf of those damn fools, protecting them from the sorts of
multi-year space travel related radiation that robotics manage to
survive because, such robots do not involve the likes of DNA/RNA that
keeps us ticking.

At least the Titan environment might be easily defended by way of
fairly conventional EVA titansuits (much like our moonsuits), with the
rather major exception/advantage of their titansuit internal
environment that's already having to manage the 1000 BTUs/hr of a
fairly active biological source of energy, as that of their not having
to deal with any nasty radiated influx of 1.4 kw/m2 plus another good
amount of reflected IR derived off the basalt dark surface as was
supposedly the case for our moon, and fortunately there certainly isn't
much of any unexpected pulverising going down on Titan, nor is there
hardly a millirem worth of radiation per day. Just lots of available
fuel and possibly something geothermal available as for processing upon
obtaining the all essential element of O2 that'll sustain whomever and
hopefully get whatever shuttle/lander back off Titan.

At the very least they'll need to create the likes of h2o2 which should
remain quite safe as remaining nicely frozen solid, or otherwise plan
upon an extended stay until all options are eliminated and they each
die on the spot (perhaps as eventually sinking into a frozen tar pit).

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 21 Jan 2005 18:48 GMT
I've added to my "Terraforming the moon, before doing Mars or Venus"
topic, something about Titan and our DEEP IMPACT mission that makes
perfect sense on behalf of terraforming our moon.

http://mygate.mailgate.org/mynews/sci/sci.space.station/c1c9806fff82c2fa95371aac
99678943.49644%40mygate.mailgate.org?order=smart&p=1/165

or

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.space.station/browse_frm/thread/9621ee25
327ee889/70ab8054a3d20bc4?_done=%2Fgroup%2Fsci.space.station%3F&_doneTitle=Back+
to+topics&_doneTitle=Back&&d#70ab8054a3d20bc4


Titan,
"Radar images revealed dark patches which could indicate liquid methane
or ethane."

Rivers and lakes of LNG?

All that's needed is a little spare energy, and the bulk of that LNG
becomes hydrogen.

-

As I've previously mentioned, if ISS were relocated and tethered to the
moon could accoumplish a great deal of lunar impacting without further
polluting mother Earth to another fairlywell.

If you still can't grasp this concept, perhaps you simply need to inform
the rest of us village idiots why you think and/or know for a fact that
our moon is so insurmountable, and so apparently worthless to humanity
as well as to future science and astronomy.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/update-242.htm
Garuda - 24 Jan 2005 04:58 GMT
"If you still can't grasp this concept, perhaps you simply need to
inform
the rest of us village idiots why you think and/or know for a fact that
our moon is so insurmountable, and so apparently worthless to humanity
as well as to future science and astronomy."

Besides the minor things like tidal forces and weather patterns being
affected by large scale mining and such on the moon there is another
important factor to consider why we should not mess with the moon at
all.  That is the Earth's axis of rotation.  Our little planet happens
to have an extremely rare and useful axis of rotation which is
stabilized be the large mass of our planet's moon.  Most planets don't
have a moon as massive in relation to the planet as ours does.

The axis of rotation is important for things like the North and South
poles staying frozen and minor things like the four seasons.  In short,
if we tamper with our moon we are directly tampering with our planets
biosphere.  If enough damage is done the axis of rotation would shift
and both ice caps would become tropical regions while the equatorial
regions became arctic.  Obviously, there would be extremely horrible
side effects to such an event happening.

Simultaneously, our moon is very important to us as it helps maintain
our biosphere.  We should protect it from all sorts of privatization
and explotaition because it is vitally important to the survival of the
human species.
Scott Hedrick - 24 Jan 2005 05:25 GMT
>> Besides the minor things like tidal forces and weather patterns being
> affected by large scale mining

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaahhaa!

Clearly, you have no clue as to just how big the moon is, and just how
little material it would be possible to mine.

and such on the moon there is another
>  Our little planet happens
> to have an extremely rare and useful axis of rotation

Which has changed over time, *even with the presence of the moon*. It's
changing *right now*.

> Most planets don't
> have a moon as massive in relation to the planet as ours does.

But some do- at least Pluto does, and it's moon is far larger in proportion.

>We should protect it from all sorts of privatization
> and explotaition because it is vitally important to the survival of the
> human species.

You're already doomed, because of the exploitation that has already occured
on Earth. Crawl under a rock and die.
Garuda - 24 Jan 2005 23:03 GMT
Clearly the response of an uninformed and scared little person.  You
wouldn't happen to be a short guy would you, it must be pretty tough to
have the short man syndrome.

You remind of the people who argue that nuclear energy is cleaner and
safer than fossil fuels.  Provided that you don't mention what we
should do with all the toxic waste created from Nuclear power plants.

I don't really care if you keep the ignorant assumption that you are
right because I know you're wrong.
Henry Spencer - 25 Jan 2005 00:16 GMT
>You remind of the people who argue that nuclear energy is cleaner and
>safer than fossil fuels.  Provided that you don't mention what we
>should do with all the toxic waste created from Nuclear power plants.

The same thing we should do with all the toxic waste created from the
fossil-fuel plants, except that it's much easier because (a) there is much
*less* of it from the nuclear plants, and (b) many of the harmful things
in nuclear-plant waste decay over time.

Stack-scrubber sludge from coal-burning plants is rich in toxic heavy
metals like arsenic, it is permanently dangerous with an infinite
half-life, and the quantities per gigawatt-hour are huge compared to
nuclear waste.
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Pat Flannery - 25 Jan 2005 06:36 GMT
>Stack-scrubber sludge from coal-burning plants is rich in toxic heavy
>metals like arsenic, it is permanently dangerous with an infinite
>half-life, and the quantities per gigawatt-hour are huge compared to
>nuclear waste.
>  

Then just like the nuclear waste, we had better put it on the far side
of the Moon also. ;-)

Pat
Moonbase Alpha
Brad Guth - 25 Jan 2005 07:42 GMT
I'm basically in agreement with 'Garuda' that our moon is rather special
to Earth. I agree that it's not an optional moon but that of a highly
essential moon.

If a planet such as Earth did not already have such a moon, and if I
were the appointed ET terraformer, there'd be no doubt in my ET mind of
what I'd have to figure out, as for some viable manner of implanting
just such a tidal influencing moon before trying again at terraforming
such a wet and easily frozen planet such as Earth. Imagine how
absolutely stinking ripe and O2 depleated the oceans would be if there
were no tides, and/or of how much ice simply would not break up before
the next cold seasion sets in. Without a moon, I'm thinking Earth would
have remained half again as much covered by ice, as well as open waters
badly polluted due to their own rotting decay of life having to make due
in such an oxigen deprived environment, plus the atmospheric CO2 count
would have become 10 fold of what it is today, meaning overall barely
liviable for whatever humanity.

Regarding "what we should do with all the toxic waste created from
Nuclear power plants"

Actually, I was sort of planning upon folks paying myself those really
big bucks/euros as to get rid of all of those spent nuclear fuel rods
and whatever other "toxic heavy
metals like arsenic", as I believe those are fairly dense items that
would essentially make for absolutely terrific lunar impactors. Again,
we're not at first attempting to make our moon livable for humans,
though perhaps accommodating life term prisoners and the likes of ENRON,
WorldCom, a few warlords and MicroSoft executives, even allowing for the
likes of a few Martha Stewarts within underground abodes could provide a
little lunar isolation while they contemplate how they've messed things
us for everyone else here on Earth, and with really good optics we could
still wave at one another, either that or using the optical laser cannon
modem link which should always perform at no worse than 2.5 seconds in
duplex delay mode. Although, that's less than 1.25 second each way, and
we should already have the existing optical packet throughput of at
least a gigabit/second, and that's actually offering quite a great deal
of streaming smut file transfers.

Keeping in mind, there shouldn't be any problem in creating roughly a
megatonne worth of atmosphere per tonne of whatever impacts the moon.
Using the KE=.5MV2 formula indicates that a round-about method of
impacting the moon at 30+km/s should be rather impressive, whereas
perhaps those spent fuel rods could be creating 10 tonnes of atmosphere
per impactor tonne.

Safely hitting the moon from Earth isn't exactly rocket science anymore.
I'd go so far as to bet those nice North Koreans and perhaps even
al-Qaida could manage that much. After all, we're not attempting to
deliver sensitive scientific instruments into any precise orbit, but as
to intentionally running those payloads directly into the moon.
Targeting at +/- 1000 km should do just fine and dandy. Even preventing
a near miss could be managed with pre 1960s rocket technology. Thus a
modern RadioShack GPS navigator encharge of things and those
probe/impactors should manage to fall to within +/- one kilometer.

If not for the environmentally cleaner H2O2/C12H26 rocket fuel, then
perhaps using those relatively cheap Chinese SBRs should still be
reasonably efficient as to accomplish this task, and perhaps no more
risky than having to transport and store spent nuclear fuel rods right
here on Earth for the next 25,000 years and counting.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Fred J. McCall - 25 Jan 2005 06:35 GMT
:You remind of the people who argue that nuclear energy is cleaner and
:safer than fossil fuels.  Provided that you don't mention what we
:should do with all the toxic waste created from Nuclear power plants.

Go ahead and mention it.  While you're at it, explain what you do with
the much larger quantity of toxic waste created from conventional
power plants.  Include an analysis of the much greater quantity of
radiation released to the atmosphere by conventional power plants.

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"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
                              -- Thomas Jefferson

Brad Guth - 25 Jan 2005 22:53 GMT
> :You remind of the people who argue that nuclear energy is cleaner and
> :safer than fossil fuels.  Provided that you don't mention what we
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> power plants.  Include an analysis of the much greater quantity of
> radiation released to the atmosphere by conventional power plants.

I must say that I agree with the conventional forms of obtaining energy
(excluding wind, hydroelectric and geothermal) are somewhat testy and
damn environmentally unfriendly, especially if you're honestly taking
into account for the birth to grave cycle.

Please keep reminding folks of all the past deaths (we're talking tens
of thousands) and ongoing deaths directly attributed to the extractions
of coal, oil and NG, and of the continual complications in having to
transport, refine and redistributing that nasty stuff.

Considering those nasty refinery fires and explosions, then counting up
all the homes, buildings and entire blocks of structures and the folks
within being blown to bits if not vaporised due to such nasty
substances, even the likes of propane getting the best of us, whereas
energy derived from those nuclear fuel-rods is initially a bit more
complicated at the physics and infrastructure safety management levels,
none the less the end product being joules/watts is about as safe and
sane as any form of artificial energy gets, and damn environmentally
friendly at that.

Even if a good portion of said nuclear energy were used for converting
other substances into hydrogen, H2 is simply a whole lot safer than NG.
Even liquid hydrogen is every bit as safe if not safer and just as
transportable as LNG.

I believe that even those spent nuclear fuel rods are recyclable, though
it's still way cheaper and less overall risky to keep storing the old
and fabricate entirely new rods. However, spent fuel-rod cooling water
could and should be safely reused as industrial process and even
domestic heating.

The entire notion of supplementing and/or replacing nuclear with the
much cleaner and zero radiation aspects of fusion as obtained from the
helium-3 (He3 or 3He) element is an absolute win-win for humanity and
our environment, and thereby a perfectly good reason for us to be
pillaging our moon for that and numerous other nifty elements.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Garuda - 26 Jan 2005 06:55 GMT
There are some major hiccups in your plans that I am not sure you are
aware of. It seems that you wish to develop many systems in Space and
gain a profit from these ventures.

First, The U.S., U.K., Russia, China and many other countries of the
United Nations drafted and ratified a treaty decades ago specifically
regarding the Moon, other celestial bodies and Outer Space in general.

Most of your ideas directly conflict with international law.  This
could cause severe problems in getting your ideas to be taken
seriously.

>From the Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and
Other Celestial Bodies:

Article 2

All activities on the Moon, including its exploration and use, shall be
carried out in accordance with international law, in particular the
Charter of the United Nations, and taking into account the Declaration
on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and
Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United
Nations, adopted by the General Assembly on 24 October 1970, in the
interest 5 of maintaining international peace and security and
promoting international cooperation and mutual understanding, and with
due regard to the corresponding interests of all other States Parties.

Article 11

1. The Moon and its natural resources are the common heritage of
mankind, which finds its expression in the provisions of this
Agreement, in particular in paragraph 5 of this article.

2. The Moon is not subject to national appropriation by any claim of
sovereignty, by means of use
or occupation, or by any other means.

3. Neither the surface nor the subsurface of the Moon, nor any part
thereof or natural resources in place, shall become property of any
State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental
organization, national organization or non-governmental entity or of
any natural person. The placement of personnel, space vehicles,
equipment, facilities, stations and installations on or below the
surface of the Moon, including structures connected with its surface or
subsurface, shall not create a right of ownership over the surface or
the subsurface of the Moon or any areas thereof. The foregoing
provisions are without prejudice to the international regime referred
to in paragraph 5 of this article.

These two articles clearly outline the problem of any individual or
corporation ever terraforming the moon or profiting from any activities
there.  One cannot sell something they do not own.

As for storing nuclear anything, chemical weapons, etc. there:

Article 7

1. In exploring and using the Moon, States Parties shall take measures
to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment,
whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its
harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental
matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid
harmfully affecting the environment of the Earth through the
introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

2. States Parties shall inform the Secretary-General of the United
Nations of the measures being adopted by them in accordance with
paragraph 1 of this article and shall also, to the maximum extent
feasible, notify him in advance of all placements by them of
radioactive materials on the Moon and of the purposes of such
placements.

3. States Parties shall report to other States Parties and to the
Secretary-General concerning areas of the Moon having special
scientific interest in order that, without prejudice to the rights of
other States Parties, consideration may be given to the designation of
such areas as international scientific preserves for which special
protective arrangements are to be agreed upon in consultation with the
competent bodies of the United Nations.

As I'm sure you've notices Section 1 of Article 7 of the Agreement
Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial
Bodies poses a serious problem for anyone who wishes to perform the
activity you have been discussing.  Personally, I don't think it will
happen.  Not necessarily due to scientific reasons, but due to
political agreements such as this one.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/Reports/AC105_722E.pdf
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/outerspt.html

"Go ahead and mention it. While you're at it, explain what you do with
the much larger quantity of toxic waste created from conventional
power plants. Include an analysis of the much greater quantity of
radiation released to the atmosphere by conventional power plants"

In fact, I will mention it.  I am concerned enough about these
misconceptions people hold that I will go to the library and provide
analysis with a bibliography.  Since, there is an overwhelming amount
of information; I will be forced to summarize the facts and foregore an
exhausting report.  I am glad that you are curious enough to ask for
factual analysis and more than happy to post my results as my personal
schedule permits.
Jorge R. Frank - 26 Jan 2005 15:02 GMT
> There are some major hiccups in your plans that I am not sure you are
> aware of. It seems that you wish to develop many systems in Space and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> From the Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and
> Other Celestial Bodies:

You are confusing two separate treaties. The countries you list above
ratified the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. The treaty you name above (and
quoted extensively) is the Moon Treaty of 1979, which was *not* ratified by
any of the above countries. In fact, it has been ratified by only 10
countries, and signed by 5 more.
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JRF

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Henry Spencer - 26 Jan 2005 15:58 GMT
>First, The U.S., U.K., Russia, China and many other countries of the
>United Nations drafted and ratified a treaty decades ago specifically
>regarding the Moon, other celestial bodies and Outer Space in general...
>>From the Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and
>Other Celestial Bodies...

Note that none of the spacefaring powers has ratified this *particular*
treaty (the "Moon Treaty"), and it is effectively dead.  The lobbying
campaign that scuttled its ratification by the US Senate was pretty much
the last act of the dying L5 Society.

>As for storing nuclear anything, chemical weapons, etc. there...

*That* is largely covered by the earlier Outer Space Treaty -- which the
US did ratify -- which bans stationing "nuclear weapons or any other kinds
of weapons of mass destruction" on celestial bodies.
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"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend."    |   Henry Spencer
                               -- George Herbert       | henry@spsystems.net

Garuda - 26 Jan 2005 22:05 GMT
Thank you for the corrections.  The document I found bundled all of the
treaties together and had a list down at the bottom of the countries
that ratified it.  However, there is a forced entry date for most of
these treaties.  My question is do we necessariy have to sign if there
is a forced entry date for the treaty?
Brad Guth - 26 Jan 2005 22:36 GMT
In reality, we (America) do whatever it damn well takes. UN/SIT, "Moon
Treaty" or whatever are only the rules by which others less fortunate
than us must comply, or else.

If ESA would take the lead upon the task of relocating ISS into the
ME-L1 nullification zone, setting up camp and getting the first tether
anchored into the moon, you'd think that most other details would soon
have to fall into place.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
Jorge R. Frank - 26 Jan 2005 23:53 GMT
> Thank you for the corrections.  The document I found bundled all of the
> treaties together and had a list down at the bottom of the countries
> that ratified it.  However, there is a forced entry date for most of
> these treaties.  My question is do we necessariy have to sign if there
> is a forced entry date for the treaty?

That document sounds like a recipe for confusion to me. I prefer this page:

<http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/treaties.html>

which lists all treaties separately, and also links to this document:

<http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/treatystatus/ST_SPACE_11_Add1_Rev1E.
pdf>

which give the status of all the treaties in one easy-to-read table.
Signature

JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

Brad Guth - 27 Jan 2005 04:10 GMT
Garuda,
I'm not saying that folks like yourself shouldn't remain guarded, as the
last thing we need is for the status quo of our resident blood sucking
warlords and of all their snookered mainstreamers backing those
warloards that are currently intent upon justifying our going after
global control of the remaining natural gas and oil reserves, whereas to
even think of allowing those perverted morons ever touching our moon
that's offering humanity the sort of potential that the likes of
ENRON/Andersen and Bush/Cheney and their partners in crimes against
humanity would lie their stinking butts off and literally kill for such
profits from helium-3, or perhaps best upon devising another bogus
dog-wagging method of keeping it from ever being utilized until the very
last m3 of their natural gas and the last spendy drop of their polluting
oil gets sold to the highest bidder, is entirely imoral.

What I'm trying to suggest is that we go for developing the necessary
fly-by-rocket lander technology and also go about the task of relocating
ISS to the moon as soon as possible, establishing our claim upon the
ME-L1 zone, as well as dominating everyting that's between Earth and
that zone, plus totally lord over the lunar terratory below, with the
focused intent of pillaging the moon to a fairlywell.

Extracting He3/3He and exporting that substance to Earth should have
become priority-1 decades ago. Whereas He3 arrivial upon Earth and
subsequent placement into clean fusion reactors, lo and behold the value
of natural gas and oil should fall into the nearest toilet (I'd like to
see $10/barrel or less), taking the buying power away from those
continually profiting at the demise of humanity, while at the same time
giving the less fortunate nations an affordable source of relatively
cheap natural gas and oil that'll be in good surplus ever since the
really big energy sucking nations of this world have switched over to
primarily fusion.

If the free world was primarily fusion based, secondly nuclear, thirdly
hydroelectric and the remainder as solar and wind energy, that plus
whatever a few nations that can already develop and export as liquified
hydrogen seems to be suggesting that we can start telling the oil rich
to go stuff it.

I'd like to think/dream that America is going to get itself smart enough
as to become 75% fusion, with the remainder as 15% hydroelectric and 10%
from the likes of solar and wind energy, thus nothing need be nuclear
and not another drop of imported oil need be obtained, much less burned
off in order to produce energy at the continuing risk of creating so
darn much artificial CO2.

Spare/surplus energy from the likes of clean fusion, hydroelectric,
solar and wind can go into producing, storing and distributing hydrogen.
In our case the existing gas and oil reserves on American soil or under
our coastal waters should be sufficient for many centuries to come,
affording sufficient and cheaper fuel oil for heavy machinery and
aircraft that can't as of yet operate directly from fusion, nor afforde
the space requirements of burning H2. Although, the likes of H2O2/C12H26
would certainly improve things by way of extending the fuel oil energy
output 7.5:1, and to think that it only takes a resource of clean energy
in order to manufacture the likes of H2O2 (that sort of fuel can fly).

BTW; there's all sorts of absolutely nifty advantages and technological
benefits as well as improvements to the environment for using
H2O2/C12H26 within IRRC engines that are extremely compact, energy
conversion efficient and extra clean burning. The IRRCE isn't science
fiction, it's not even science future, it's actually been science placed
on hold for the past several decades because it's so darn good and, for
all the right reasons the right sort of thing that we should have been
doing from the very get-go.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Fred J. McCall - 27 Jan 2005 06:08 GMT
:*That* is largely covered by the earlier Outer Space Treaty -- which the
:US did ratify -- which bans stationing "nuclear weapons or any other kinds
:of weapons of mass destruction" on celestial bodies.

Since Earth is a planet, doesn't it qualify as a 'celestial body' in
this usage?  :-)
Brad Guth - 31 Jan 2005 03:52 GMT
> :*That* is largely covered by the earlier Outer Space Treaty -- which the
> :US did ratify -- which bans stationing "nuclear weapons or any other kinds
> :of weapons of mass destruction" on celestial bodies.
>
> Since Earth is a planet, doesn't it qualify as a 'celestial body' in
> this usage?  :-)

Yes it certainly does, and then some. In fact, we actually think there's
life on Earth, thereby our survival should outweigh anything that's
negative as to how the moon is treated. I'd say we should go for it and
pay later. After all, shortly after the first load of extracted He3 and
we're home free, with clean fusion energy and lots of money to burn for
you name it.

Since most of the 'sci.skeptic' and multiple other such all-knowing
forum folks are not really honest 'skeptics' about squat, they're mostly
mainstream dog-wagging spin, hype and damage-control borgs functioning
on behalf of contributing whatever suits their pagan God(NASA/Apollo).
I've noticed how they've buckled under questioning, by way of their
usually not answering specific questions, other than quoting from their
NASA/Apollo bible.

Such as; I have no problem with images of our moon obtained from orbit,
not from anything Apollo while in orbit, via Hubble or the likes of
KECK, as they each depict a mostly basalt dark moon as it should be, in
places as little as 3%(coal like) reflective, at best 25% reflecting in
only an extremely few maximum lunar white-out zones.

Why did there seem to be so much that was 55+% reflective once upon the
lunar surface?

Why wasn't it much hotter than reported while supposedly walking on the
actual dark lunar surface?

Doesn't IR energy reflect?

Why was the Kodak eye (unfiltered except for a full spectrum band-pass
polarised filter) so unable to record the 256 fold increase in near-UV
and UV/a energy?

Where was the Sirius star system all of this time?

Where was good old Venus all of this time?

Why was the film exposure to the 'blue' of our American flag subdued?

Why was the 3+g/cm lunar basalt and other supposedly heavier substance
so none-reactive?

Where did all the meteorites and their impact strewn shards go?

Why was there never once a dust-bunny impacting at 30 km/s or even 3
km/s?

Why is there still nothing of interactive scientific instrumentation
deployed upon the moon?

What's the secondary difference between the illuminated side of the moon
as compared to the nighttime side, or didn't our command modules (on 7+
Apollo occasions) and numerous other robotic missions ever bother to
record squat as to such raw surface emissions of thermal and radiation
levels that should have been easily recorded from such a 100+km orbit?

In further retrospect; exactly how long does it require for ice to
vaporise in space?

The same goes for dry-ice(frozen CO2), how much time per ccm or per m3
into vapor in space?

In spite of all the orchestrated flak imposed against my suggestions on
behalf of seriously accomplishing nothing but good and honorable things
with ISS, I also have managed to create a few other related topics,
several of which are not specifically about our moon or Titan, though in
more than a few ways offering just about everything under the sun on
behalf of improving future space exploration and just plain old space
travel bang for the buck/euro that's at least indirectly related to
folks utilizing our moon as a rather necessary gravitational booster
shot. Of such missions passing as close to the moon as possible hasn't
even been such a new idea, it just so happens to coincide with the even
better physics and science logic and numerous other values of what the
LSE-CM/ISS is good for.

"Terraforming the moon, before doing Mars or Venus"
"The Moon, LSE-CM/ISS, Venus and beyond, with He3 to burn"
"Lunar/Moon Space Elevator, plus another ISS within the CM"
"Space Policy Sucks, while there's Life on Venus"
"Ice Ages directly regulated by Sirius"
"SETI/GUTH Venus, no kidding"
"Terraforming the moon"
"Relocate ISS to ME-L1"

Relocation of ISS to ME-L1 is certainly much easier said than done, but
at least it's something that's been doable. For the benefit of salvaging
our environment, extracting and exporting helium-3(He3/3He) to Earth is
just offering a little beneficial fusion icing on the cake.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 27 Jan 2005 04:26 GMT
Garuda,
There you go again, with all the usual social/political morallizations.
Instead of focusing upon contributing something on the positive side of
this topic, and thereby helping humanity, of drastically improving the
long-term environment of mother Earth, instead you're the one that's
insisting we keep the same old cold-war status quo enforced by way of
fighting to our deaths over a shrinking world of rising oceans and
depleted energy resources until them Apollo cows come home.

Apparently you still don't consider for a freaking minute that the
survival of humanity and of all that's Earth is worth better than
another political argument over some rules, that which Americans don't
actually have to be bothered with?

The moon and specifically the LSE-CM/ISS outpost or depot/Gateway to
just about everywhere else is what I'd call a first come first served
situation. It's finders keepers and to hell with whomever else is
getting in the way. At least that's been the way of securing every other
valuable resource upon Earth, and throughout history at that.

What's wrong with China having total control over the ME-L1 zone?

Even Osama bin Laden wouldn't be as bad off as Halburton or ENRON.

Obviously there'll be countless individuals that'll just as soon start
WW-III as to allow whomever to get the upper hand on whatever our moon
has to offer. That's why I've been suggesting that we relocate ISS to
the moon, and thus from within that vantage point we internationally
start the process of creating the truly massive infrastructure of the
full blown LSE.

Of course, our American part in this accomplishment could become
utilized as the ultimate star-wars domination over Earth, especially of
operating the tether dipole element that's cruising those 0.5
milliradian 100 GW laser cannons within 50,000 km and, if you're an
American or simply one of our few allies, that's a good thing.

"Most of your ideas directly conflict with international law.  This
could cause severe problems in getting your ideas to be taken
seriously."

Actually, most of my ideas conflict with the mainstream status quo which
surpasses your "international law" any stinking day of the week. Since
when have major governments or their corporate sponsors for profit
played by any stinking "international law", much less moral rules, other
than the one about their not getting caught?

I believe if there were such enforceable "international law" we would
have been held accountable for the perpetrated cold-war, and especially
of what's ongoing as of today.

Speaking of terraforming the moon;
"Personally, I don't think it will happen.  Not because of scientific
reasons, but due to political agreements such as this one."

Unfortunately that's correct, as it'll first have to become the total
demise upon our placing mother Earth deeply (beyond the point of no
return) into extinction mode of all other viable forms of life that
could have sustained humanity and our environment. Thanks to folks and
their snookered mind-set that are somewhat like yourself, we're at half
the diatom population and dropping like a rock, thus we're all doomed to
a global-warming environment of rising oceans, atmospheric extremes plus
unimaginable storms, and those ever expanding dead-zones within our
oceans, lakes and rivers.

You can't go about shifting the albedo of Earth by -5% without suffering
the consequences.

Fortunately, since half the ice in Antarctica is going away (thanks to
all of your conventional fuel consumption and the absolute vast amounts
of global pollution created by such), as such we're about to lose 25% of
the dry land we've got, about the same time there'll soon become another
piece of dry and unfrozen land for humanity to fight over, as to
populate and pollute Antarctica, plus the Arctic should remain as nearly
ice free year round, thus more efficient shipping and accessible ocean
for all those nifty submarine war-games that you so much admire.

BTW; It sounds as though you've got yourself a rather serious pot full
of NG and oil investments, possibly even some fairly old energy related
stock options that you'd like to take advantage of, so as to get the
most almighty bang for your buck/euro.

Perhaps since we're doomed into WW-III sooner or later (GW Bush prepping
our capital for surviving a nuclear exchange), as such isn't this quest
of terraforming the moon on behalf of making the lunar surface at least
robotically suitable as good of reason as any to fight over?

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 24 Jan 2005 22:44 GMT
Garuda,
WOW, the likes of 'OM' and 'Scott Hedrick' bashing someone other than
myself.

Actually, I happen to agree that 'Garuda' is a wee bit over-reacting. I
don't believe even the largest of LSE infrastructure or of whatever
lunar terraforming is going to shift the ongoing recession of our moon
by measurable amounts. Certainly everything has it's limits, and perhaps
some of these fine upstanding wizards can share a little something along
the lines of what their talents can think of that'll underline those
limits of which we'll need to be aware of.

Thanks anyway for your well intended feedback. If you'd like something
specific on what could affect the lunar environment, and/or of what that
might accomplish for humanity, such as the accomplishments of obtaining
3He or He3 (helium-3) from our moon is actually a good one for starters.
That is unless you've got a few hundred billion barrels of oil hidden
away, and you so happen to own lots of new ENRON stock.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 28 Jan 2005 21:23 GMT
The Moon, LSE-CM/ISS, Venus and beyond, with He3 to burn;
As a complex and multitasking topic, this argument isn't about how our
moon is worthless, of how the lunar space elevator can't possibly be
accomplished, nor is this topic about how difficult Venus is for the
likes of sustaining other than human life.

Never the less, opposing the positive side of just about everything
under the sun, whereas the vast bulk about what makes the likes of
GOOGLE and so many other forums suck is specifically because of how
certain insider damage-control moles/borgs focused upon bashing such
topics and authors for sport, for profit, for the specific job/task of
reinforcing their perpetrated cold-war agenda of continually snookering
thy humanity into an early grave.

In spite of this perverted level of orchestrated flak, and according to
many experts that aren't guessing at anything, Helium-3(He3/3H3) is
entirely fusion doable, and our moon supposedly has lots to spare.
That's not even based upon anything NASA/Apollo, thus it's probably
true physics in action that humanity can actually rely upon, that is if
it weren't for all the social/political crapolla that's ongoing.

Our moon represents the utmost ideal morgue of the known universe,
offering damn near a little of everything, and simply chuck full of
interesting and invaluable benefits for Earth sciences, our
environment, and thereby directly of value to humanity. There's
actually nothing negative about our moon, other than the cold-war
fiasco of our ruse/sting of the century that's been getting the better
of us. In this instance I agree with our resident warlord(GW Bush) "so
what's the difference", as now that we've managed to cause so much
collateral damage and associated carnage of the innocent, at least from
this point on we can proudly claim to be the king of cold-war
disinformation spooks, the champ on the highest hill of human carnage,
and the baddest holder of that almighty brass ring.

Of the three most likely to host life planets, Venus actually offers by
far the most available dry land (a wee bit toasty but energy easily
resolves that) and absolutely loads of alternatives for other life as
based upon the vast existing elements that includes great sums of H20
and all of that environmentally green energy to boot, whereas Earth
contributes roughly 10% of total surface area as being suitable for
accommodating humanity, whereas at this time it's fairly clear about
Mars being sub-frozen, easily pulverised and certainly TBI to death, of
which Mars isn't going to make for even a highly sophisticated effort
all that doable beyond those relatively spendy, risky and at best
short-term surface expeditions, as least not without such costing us
another trillion and further polluting mother Earth into another
fairlywell in the process.

In order to efficiently get ourselves and even our robotics to other
planets, besides needing a good fly-by-rocket (two-way) lander that
remains to be developed on behalf of Mars and moons other than Titan,
our expeditions will need loads of physical shielding and preferably an
alternative resource of energy so that 1% LS(3e6 m/s) can be obtained
and sustained over great distances, of which basalt/silica composites
and the likes of He3 need to be made available in orbit, and preferably
as not even originating from Earth. For each and every tonne set off to
another world from Earth, the environment of Earth gets kicked in the
teeth and the butt with absolute loads (1000:1) of artificial CO2 and
countless other nasty pollutants. Are there no limits to this sort of
impact?

A lunar space elevator is just the right sort of ticket, even if it's
starting off with merely the relocated ISS, as ISS with an initial
tether anchored into the moon will start to provide the sorts of
station-keeping platform duties and related science contributions that
most any expedition to another world can utilize. Unfortunately, the
64,000 km distance from the moon isn't going to take kindly to ISS,
where this is simply because ISS isn't massive enough except for
robotics to survive, at least not until nightfall and/or via earthshine
when their internal TBI factors and obviously the lunar reflected IR
issues have been drastically diminished, giving the ISS crew roughly 27
days to put-up or shut-up before their next sunrise and subsequently
having to pod transport themselves back into the safety zone of being
cloaked by the Van Allen belts that are nicely surrounding Earth, that
plus obtaining the best shelter via all of the 10 tonnes/m2 worth of
atmosphere that's essentially protecting those of us on the surface
from being summarily TBI to death.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 26 Feb 2005 01:10 GMT
Discrediting the LSE-CM/ISS from what's technically obtainable, and
then especially discounting Venus from the zone of life is about as
intellectually pathetic as milking a cow and then eating the damn cow
so that via 'evidence exclusion' one can deny where that milk ever came
from. It seems that 'evidence exclusion' is a trade mark of our NSA/DoD
perpetrated cold-war(s) that suck.

I have absolutely no problem with the likes of accomplishing Earth
science, therefore sustaining the likes of the JIMO (Joint Institute
for Marine Observations) offers an extremely acceptable goal and, I'd
certainly provide matching funds to boot.

BTW; would not having one of those 'Marine Observations' contributed
from the moon be worth anything, or how about as from the tether dipole
element termination platform that'll cruise to within 50,000 km of
Earth (much closer if you'd dare), as easily and efficiently deployed
from the LSE-CM/ISS that's essentially tethered to the moon at roughly
64,000 km off the lunar deck.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 03 Mar 2005 05:55 GMT
I can always identify another incest cloned borg from a lightyear away,
especially whenever the likes of 'Scott Hedrick' are still inferring
that I don't know the difference between Mars and Venus or even the
difference between an actual warlord and that of Hitler which is
actually getting so much tougher to discriminate the difference these
days.

That's rather exactly like their knowing for a bloody fact that ENRON
was accomplishing what was planned by our current administration
(except for the part about their getting caught), and that WMDs were
just another perpetrated cold-war for-profit ruse, then joyfully
accepting the collateral damage and carnage of the innocent without
remorse, starting long before 9/11, including 9/11 and ongoing for as
far as we can foresee.

Of course, since I'm still human and as such I make way more than my
fair share of mistakes (clearly unlike their incest cloned resident
warlord that has just about everything DNA/RNA that's Hitler and then
some), perhaps it's my remorse that's getting the better of myself,
insisting that I look at whatever's most likely the case and thereby if
need be speculate as to what's most likely the truth.

Evidence exclusions by the NASA/Apollo cult often leaves few
alternatives but to subjectively speculate upon filling in the gaps
from the available facts, especially made difficult when the most basic
of raw lunar environment information and of zero follow up has been
summarily excluded and/or moderated to death, such as for the excluded
evidence as for their actual fly-by-rocket landers isn't exactly adding
any spare points on their side of the argument. Tossing in the very
xenon illumination spectrum worth of all their Kodak moments upon the
surface and lo and behold, there's 'Trouble in River City'.

On the other hand, it's relatively easy to be negative about whatever
rocks your mainstream boat, and if that boat so happens to be the
American way if taking advantage of humanity as well as per polluting
mother Earth to another fairlywell, then perhaps that's where's I've
failed at being sufficiently borg like, and entirely my fault for not
killing my fair share of innocent civilians by way of perpetrating a
number of cold-wars, torturing prisoners for sport and otherwise mass
exterminating prisoners as did the Israeli in the American tactical
supported 6-Days War where we had to knowingly sacrifice the USS
LIBERTY and most of it's crew in order to remain business friends with
the murderous Arab nations.

So, I can fully understand why their mainstream status quo has to
accomplish exactly whatever they must, as to apply whatever dog-wagging
spin, infomercial disinformation hype and thereby damage-control on
their behalf because, it's become all or nothing. Meanwhile, the moon
is getting closer and closer to the likes of Russian and even Chinese
hands, and we're still sucking rotten eggs of oil and coal produced
energy instead of being a clean nuclear powered nation. While other
nations are exceeding 80% nuclear energy capacity, we're being coming
more and more nuclear WMD ready for WW-III, and otherwise star-wars
ready as for defending our sorry butts. Therefore, we may not be the
first to actually walk upon the earthshine illuminated moon but, at
least we'll be among the few survivors of the next war.

Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
Brad Guth - 12 Feb 2007 22:25 GMT
Since accomplishing most anything upon or even anywhere near our moon
seems rather Usenet taboo/nondisclosure (off limits), and since folks
here in Usenet land of all that's spook/mole orchestrated as
anti-think-tank naysayism, or otherwise stuck in damage control mode
simply can't manage to behave themselves, much less focus constructively
upon the original topic at hand;  here's yet another of my constructive
GS(global shading) contributions, of related research work in progress
to share:

Though not impossible, it is simply not all that likely that Earth's
moon emerged from within mother Earth, whereas more likely as having
materialized from an incoming glancing sucker punch, such as by that of
a Sirius Oort cloud icy item, as for Earth having received a nasty blow
(say having created an arctic ocean basin like impression, along with
causing that seasonal tilt), by a very icy proto-moon (possibly of 4,000
km).

For a brief example;  If the orbital distance were made half and thus
the velocity would have to double because the mutual gravity of
attraction would have become 4X, therefore we'd have introduced 16 fold
more inside and out worth of centripetal/tidal energy to deal with, and
I'm not all that sure mother Earth would have stayed glued together at
that level of horrific gravitional and internal tidal forced trauma,
much less for cutting that orbital distance by yet another half (making
its previous orbit at 96,100 km and velocity of 4.092 km/s) would have
to impose yet another 16 fold factor, or rather suggesting 256 fold
worse global warming trauma than what we currently are suffering from
the existing tidal and thereby unavoidable GW affects as is.

The mainstream argument(s) against my icy proto-moon argument, as to
what's not quite adding up, soon becomes a real physics piss-off;  How
much time did it take for that moon which supposedly emerged from within
Earth, to have reached the orbital altitude of 96,100 km, then having
migrated from 96,100 km out to where it's currently operating at 384,400
km? (thus far, none of those spendy computer simulations seem clean
enough)

If within the regular laws of physics and by way of scientific matter of
fact, suggesting that we do seem to have at our disposal 2e20 joules of
potential mascon tidal energy via the mutual Earth/moon gravity and the
for ever ongoing centripetal force to deal with, as applied energy
that's coming or ongoing per each and every second, as such that's
actually imposing a rather great potential of interactive planet<-->moon
energy that's obviously existing and ongoing, or simply as coming or
going as to/from somewhere or otherwise having to coexist as real
energy.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
AJ Gravity Equations Formulas Calculator

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpgravity/newtons_law_gravity_equation_force.php
Just for our calculating the Earth/moon static or passive worth of
gravitational force:

object 1 mass (m1)  =  5.9736e24  kilogram  
object 2 mass (m2)  =  7.349e22   kilogram  
distance between objects (r) = 384.4e6 meters  

grams of gravitational force(F) = 2.021492e22 g
The kg of gravitational force = 2.021492e19 kg

Here's some more of this weird physics math that doesn't quite fit the
status quo mold, suggesting as to what it'll create by way of our having
placed 7.35e22 kg at Earth's L1 if we excluded the sun itself, which of
course can't ever be the case.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
r = 1.5376e9 meters
M = 7.35e22 kg
V = 112e3 m/s (if in relation to Earth's 24 hr rotation)
Centripetal force: Fc = 5.996254e23 N = 6.11448e22 kgf
6.11448e22 kgf * 9.80665 = 5.996e23 joules Earth-->L1

However, since the notion of having our moon relocated at Earth's L1 is
essentially having diverted such into no longer orbiting us, there's
actually zero centripetal interaction taking place (Earth is simply
rather nicely spinning for no apparent reason at the end of this mutual
and somewhat nullified sol/moon/Earth gravity string), whereas
Sol-->Earth L1 is supposedly the primary gravity influence of what takes
back or rather nullifies all of the moon's gravity as well as having
eliminated the centripetal force of whatever's equivalent in joules
worth of implied energy:

As for the sol<-->moon orbital interaction, as having established a
7.35e22 kg planetoid of orbital Fc = 44.4975e25 joules

object 1 mass (m1)  =  1.989e30  kilogram
object 2 mass (m2)  =  7.35e22   kilogram
distance between objects (r)  =  148060290 meters  
gravitational force (F)  =  4.5375282969184E+25 kgf
The kgf as energy.s  =  4.5375283e25 * 9.80655  =  44.4975e25 joules

Obviously the opposing gravity force/energy relationship that's
involving mother Earth has to be taken into account.  I simply haven't
gotten that far.

In other words, with our moon relocated out to Earth L1, we/Earth lose
out on the original 2e20 joules, replaced by the sol/moon combined
gravity and tidal influence that's going to become considerably less
imposing than what we'd had ongoing from having that horrific amount of
nearby orbiting mass of 7.35e22 kg and cruising at 1.023 km/s.  However,
we/Earth get to deal with our fair share portion of the 44.4975e25
joules while that moon becomes our local planetoid that's cruising
within Earth's L1, as our binary partner on behalf of offering that much
needed shade.

Since we're talking about the existing Fc as a centripetal force per
second, therefore the conversion over to joules is also of one that's
based upon a second by second basis.

1 joule = 1 W.s (watt second)
3600 j = 1 W.h (watt hour)
1 watt hour of applied energy is therefore worth: 3600 joules
1 joule/sec as applied for an hour thereby also = 3600 joules

Each kgf (kg of applied force/m/s) = 9.80665 joules

There's roughly 2.0394e19 kgf of Fc (centripetal force) that's
continually second by second as ongoing opposing force between Earth and
our unusually massive and nearby orbiting mascon/moon.

The second by second amount of centripetal force becomes:
2.0215e19 * 9.80665 = 19.824e19 joules

Per hour, that amount of second by second applied energy becomes worth:
2e20 j * 3.6e3 = 7.2e23 W.h (watts per hour), or 7.2e20 kw

At 7.2e20 / 5.112e14 m2 = 1.408e6 kw/m2

Obviously we're not getting ourselves mascon/moon roasted or otherwist
tramatised to death by way of that horrific amount of applied energy,
though a small portion of that mutual (inside and out) tidal induced
energy is unavoidably becoming thermal energy via friction (inside and
out).  In addition to the Fc of 7.2e20 KW.h, there's also a touch of the
moon's IR/FIR as terrestrial influx, although because we're continually
being science data starved, as without having moon/L1 data, is why I've
not yet accounted for the reflected and secondary worth of such IR/FIR
energy that's received by Earth.

The slight portion of the mascon gravity that's offset by centripetal
force is what I'm suggesting is capable of global warming us inside and
out, as listing below:
0.1% = 1.408 kw/m2
0.01% = 140.8 w/m2
0.001% = 14 w/m2
0.0001% = 1.4 w/m2

However, since I'm on such a Usenet taboo or banishment status of a
need-to-know basis, and since I clearly do not already know all there is
to know, is why some of my math could be unintentionally skewed or even
dead wrong.  Therefore, if your wizardly expertise should know any
better, perhaps you could simply share by telling us how much or how
little of that total amount of nearby mascon gravity and centripetal
force of applied tidal energy is actually keeping us a little extra warm
and toasty.  My swag is leaning towards the 0.001% of the 7.2e20 KW.h,
as being worth 14 w/m2.  Of course that's applied inside and out,
including a tidal forced atmosphere and otherwise all the way down to
the very core of Earth, and thereby affecting most everything in between
that's in any way fluid or capable of getting moved along by such
forces.

Therefore, take away our moon and subsequently a major portion of our
surface environment becomes rather extra snowy and icy cold to the
touch, not to mention rather albedo reflective to boot, perhaps even ice
age cold enough as to reestablish a few of those badly receding glaciers
and otherwise expand those polar caps.  At least that's what the regular
laws of physics and of replicated science has been suggesting.  That's
not my excluding or disqualifying the human GW factor of our global
dimming via soot and by having added those nasty elements (including
h2o) into our frail environment that's obviously anything but within
energy balance, that are directly and/or indirectly polluting our oceans
and atmosphere, like none other or even by what the entire collective of
known species other than human can accomplish (are we humans good at
raping and sucking the very life out of mother Earth, or what).
However, as bad off as that sounds, I simply do not place more than 25%
responsibility onto ourselves, and perhaps that's even worth as little
as 10% of the ongoing global warming demise that's plaguing us until we
manage to relocate that pesky moon of our's.

Too bad there's not one American supercomputer that's worthy of running
any of this analogy, at least not without blowing out their mainstream
status quo CPUs.  Apparently only of what's Old Testament faith based,
or as hocus-pocus and/or cloak and dagger analogies can be run as fully
3D interactive computer simulations.  As God forbid, you certainly
wouldn't want to rock thy good ship LOLLIPOP with the truth, now would
we.

Unfortunately, our ongoing demise of our highly protective
magnetosphere, at the rate of -0.05%/year, may eventually overtake the
GW factor, as being the more human DNA and of other forms of life
ultimate lethal demise of these two ongoing gauntlets, which added
together are going to represent more trauma than most such forms of life
as we know of can manage to evolve our way through, or otherwise survive
via applied technology.

Perhaps if the status quo gets its usual brown-nosed Skull and Bones
worth of big-energy buttology certified way, whereas life on Venus
(though naked humanly hot) isn't looking quite as bad off as we've been
faith-based mainstream informed.
-
Brad Guth
Brad Guth - 21 Feb 2007 19:23 GMT
Of all the nifty and scientifically valuable sorts of nearby places that
we can affordably and safely reach with our existing fly-by-rocket
technology as of decades ago, Venus L2 is certainly a cool enough place
to be situated, with secondly being that of our establishing a mostly if
not entirely robotic science platform at our moon's L2, that's really
nearby us.

There's no actual need of our terraforming Venus, as a fairly newish
planetology it's doing just fine and dandy as is, along with having a
billion fold more raw energy to burn (sort of speak) than Iraq, and
better yet because Venus energy is 100% renewable and actually it's
relatively clean energy at that.  With some of our best applied
technology, we could actually go there and perhaps visit directly with
whomever or whatever had accomplished those rather sizable
modifications.  However, terraforming our moon may be of some local
interest, especially once having relocated that moon into Earth's L1
sweet spot for obtaining some badly needed shade, and having China
accomplish their LSE-CM/ISS is simply a solid win-win for the old
gipper.

However, are the few and far between likes of "Joann Evans" and "Martha
H Adams" dead and gone?

It seems as though, all that's left within this mostly Usenet brown-nose
land of unlimited butt-suckings are those MI/NSA~MIB spooks and moles,
doing their usual Old Testament thing of acting out and/or reacting
rather badly as though functioning exactly like the Jewish sorts of
Third Reich (aka Skull and Bones).  Am I wrong?

Take to mentioning or otherwise sharing anything about intelligent other
life, or much less that of forbid any honest thoughts of sharing upon
intelligent design and of applied technology as utilized on behalf of
whatever we as well as ETs should be capable of, then sit back and watch
as all of Usenet status quo hell brakes lose, as though having gone
Mormon or perhaps Amish on us, and of otherwise going absolutely naysay
postal like a certain Pope did to those nice Cathars.

If I show folks a perfectly good picture (of better pixel truth worthy
image than offered by most any visual spectrum CCD format) of what's
offering us sufficient physical evidence as a perfectly deductive form
of reasonably interpreted proof, as to sharing in whatever's
existing/coexisting as intelligent other life upon Venus, and suddenly
it's WW-III, if not a whole lot worse.

Share most any honest thought pertaining to our extremely large and
nearby moon that's truly a one of a kind orb by way of its ratio to that
of the associated planet, and at best you've got yourself another nasty
all-or-nothing gauntlet, as having created another butt-load of causing
seriously big trouble in NASA's River City.

Contribute an honest thought as to resolving our ongoing lack of clean
or even dirty energy and of the partly human associated global warming
fiascos, then watch as faster than a speeding bullet you've got more
than your fair share of those big-energy and pro-government brown-noses
that start coming out of the wood, as well as emerging out of those
mainstream status quo cesspools, like so many infomercial butt-flapping
clowns popping out of those silly little cars.

It's literally an ongoing bloody joke, as to what we're continually
doing to ourselves and to that of our badly failing environment, yet
those silly mainstream clowns keep arriving as though having an endless
supply of those spendy little clown cars that realty have the world's
worse possible EMPG ratings, and of their total dependence upon nasty
oil and/or of spendy and otherwise polluting fuel alternatives that we
can imagine.  Unfortunately, this is all decades old news, and in some
instances it's simply too far gone past the point of no return.

In spite of the best available truths, every effort has been made to
disqualify or otherwise stock, bash and to banish upon allowing any form
of local or private America establishing the best applied technology of
clean and renewable energy.  It's as though they (big-energy and
bigger-government) want us to pay that $1/kwhr or the equal worth in
whatever other forms of energy, while further insuring we'll have
established zilch worth of local or private alternatives to fall back
upon.

Our ongoing avoidance of our moon, of the moon's nifty L1, of anything
Venus or even that of establishing something/anything at VL2, and
especially that of our having avoided any chance of taking the nearby
Sirius star/solar system seriously, is absolutely and rather insanely
the most taboo/nondisclosure form of intellectual and scientific
blockage via mainstream crapolla that simply shouldn't exist, that is
unless you're stuck forever within some kind of pagan form of heathen
naysay mode of unlimited denial.

If you've got any better insider clue(s) as to what's going on, please
do share.
-
Brad Guth
 
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