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Space Forum / Shuttle / December 2004Radiation and manned flight.
Hi folks, thought I'd introduce... or attempt to, some more sane discussion here for a change. Seems to me, that although from the transport point of view, we can get humans to the moon and to Mars, and probably back again, the difficult question of radiation appears to be, if not swept under the carpet, at least filed for later. It will have to be tackled if we are going to set up shop on the moon, and I can see that this may well be possible in a built environment, but who shields the builders, and what about the journey. The Apollo flights were pretty lucky or well timed, depending on who you read, because there was little protection available there, other than as far as I could tell, orienting the craft so more of it was in the way! Not much you could do on the surface of course. So, shielding is heavy, and presumably, some kind of magnetic deflection is either impracticable, or just won't work of high energy particles spewed by the sun. I just wonder if we are, in effect going to be imprisoned on our little planet by this problem. After all, if someone could crack the radiation problem, there would be no more worries about nuclear power on Earth. So, are there any experts here who would know if this problem is a show stopper outside of our magnetic field? Brian  SignatureBrian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > Hi folks, thought I'd introduce... or attempt to, some more sane discussion > here for a change. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Brian It is a real problem, and it has been calculated that astronauts who go to mars & return will suffer some brain damage. The solution is to plant a permanent colony so you can breed undamaged people, and the dose is a lot less for a one-way trip. There are also some theoretical considerations that suggest we are in a minimum of cosmic ray activity and when a supernova's radiation in our galaxy reaches earth we may have to suspend manned space activity for a century. SignatureFree men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ It occurred to me some years ago that the main reason for mutations and the sexual methods used on our planet are probably due to radiation pressure anyway. I'd have thought that rather than brain damage, damage to the genes and sexual problems, even cancers might be a consequence of space travel outside of the magnetic field of our planet. As neither Mars nor the Moon seem to have a real magnetic field, other than a remnant set in the rocks from some earlier time, I cannot see how we could be safe in either place. Brian SignatureBrian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email. graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > It occurred to me some years ago that the main reason for mutations and the > sexual methods used on our planet are probably due to radiation pressure [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a remnant set in the rocks from some earlier time, I cannot see how we could > be safe in either place. Shielding is easy enough if you have easy access to mass and cheap ways to move it. On Mars or the Moon a bulldozer can excavate a pit, line the pit with locally made concrete as well as a roof support system, then backfill the roof with a few meters of rock and soil. Shielding mass on a spacecraft is much more complicated because of the cost of moving mass. Given the current administration's history of cheapness on things that really count I'd be guessing that the astronauts on a voyage to Mars would have to share one space suit between them. JazzMan Signature********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry ********************************************************** > Shielding is easy enough if you have easy access to mass > and cheap ways to move it. On Mars or the Moon a bulldozer > can excavate a pit, line the pit with locally made concrete > as well as a roof support system, then backfill the roof > with a few meters of rock and soil. Why not just drill down and excavate underground. Then you'd have a nearly air-tight volume....and you don't need to get anything to the moon except some drills. Tom > > Shielding is easy enough if you have easy access to mass > > and cheap ways to move it. On Mars or the Moon a bulldozer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tom Tunneling machines are much more complex and difficult to transport than a 'dozer type device, and tunnelling is much more complex and difficult than cut and cover. Ultimately a tunneling machine setup would be the way to go, but a 'dozer seems best for a beginning. JazzMan Signature********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry ********************************************************** > > > Shielding is easy enough if you have easy access to mass > > > and cheap ways to move it. On Mars or the Moon a bulldozer [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > difficult than cut and cover. Ultimately a tunneling machine setup > would be the way to go, but a 'dozer seems best for a beginning. One alternative some have proposed, but I suspect needs more work to qualify is the use of lava tubes. Find one, drop into it.. inflate your shelter... instant radiation and meteorite protection. > JazzMan There's an easy fix for this. Limit crews for long-duration spaceflight to people in their late 40s. The radiation-induced cancers generally take decades to become lethal. This is an old idea. My boss at McDonnell Douglas, the late Pete Conrad (Apollo 12), mentioned this work-around in several of our discussions. Pete, of course, believed (correctly) that he would have been a prime candidate for the first manned Mars mission that would have taken place sometime in the 1980s, if the recommendations of the 1969 Space Task Group had been accepted in the post-Apollo period. Pete would have been in his 50s by then. Later Ray Schmitt > Hi folks, thought I'd introduce... or attempt to, some more sane > discussion here for a change. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Brian >Why not just drill down and excavate underground. Then you'd have a nearly >air-tight volume....and you don't need to get anything to the moon except >some drills. > >Tom Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Doesn't anybody remember the Nevada nuke tests of the '50s and '60s? You make a small vertical hole in the ground, insert an atomic suppository and instantly, you have a 100 foot diameter spherical evacuation. That's where your astronauts will live, work, and multiply, shielded 100% from cosmic radiation. Well, one solution to long term Lunar Human Habitation is we can burrow under the surface. I'd even add you would want to place your water supply storage 'overhead' so to speak. As you say, getting to the point of having such a construction in the 1st place might be solved by sending robotic and telemetric (sp?), telepresence construction widgets to do the main digging prior to sending the fitters and plumbers to finish it off. "My Daddy was a Submariner & my Mamma was a Miner..." I was struck by this thread to brainstorm shielding and I came up with polarized magnetic fields. Perhaps a larger affect can be had by subjecting the incoming particles to many fields that are aligned to cascade or amplify the resultant effect. On this same train of thought; would it be possible to redirect the errant radiation, to not try and fully block it but to bend it's path around the long term space craft? Just some thoughts, practical? Maybe not. Run with it. TBerk |
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