SRB + J-2 + CEV = ?
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rk - 19 Sep 2004 23:02 GMT http://www.thespacereview.com/article/226/1
CEV: a different approach by Jeff Foust Monday, September 13, 2004
Turning the SRB into a launch vehicle requires an upper stage. Horowitz said he and colleagues settled upon the J-2, an engine used on the Saturn 1B and 5. “It turns out that with the J-2 and about 200,000 pounds [90,000 kg] of LOX/hydrogen on this thing, you can launch 40,000 or 50,000 pounds [18,100 or 22,700 kg] to LEO,” he said. While the J-2 hasn’t been used since the last Saturn 1B launch in 1975, he was confident that the engine would be available, based on conversations with executives at Rocketdyne, the Boeing subsidiary that built the J-2. “They actually have 12 J-2s sitting around,” he said, and added that the company felt they could get a production line for new J-2 engines going in a couple years.
...
Tom Jones, the former astronaut who was one of the members of the Planetary Society’s panel, believes SRBs are the way to go for the CEV. Jones noted that the SRBs have flown 176 times since the 1986 Challenger accident—88 shuttle missions using two SRBs each—without a failure. “That’s the highest reliability of any rocket flying in the world today,” he said during a panel session on space exploration last week at the 2004 International Military and Aerospace Programmable Logic Device (MAPLD) Conference in Washington. “So if you polled the astronaut corps, you’d probably find that people, almost uniformly, would be willing to step onto an SRB on the next flight.”
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 Signature rk, Just an OldEngineer "Engineers abhor extrapolation" -- Ken Iliff, from _Runway to Orbit_, 2004
Ray Schmitt - 20 Sep 2004 01:56 GMT > http://www.thespacereview.com/article/226/1 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > based on conversations with executives at Rocketdyne, the Boeing subsidiary > that built the J-2. "They actually have 12 J-2s sitting around," he said, and
> added that the company felt they could get a production line for new J-2 > engines going in a couple years. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tom Jones, the former astronaut who was one of the members of the Planetary > Society's panel, believes SRBs are the way to go for the CEV. Jones noted that
> the SRBs have flown 176 times since the 1986 Challenger accident-88 shuttle
> missions using two SRBs each-without a failure. "That's the highest > reliability of any rocket flying in the world today," he said during a panel
> session on space exploration last week at the 2004 International Military and > Aerospace Programmable Logic Device (MAPLD) Conference in Washington. "So if
> you polled the astronaut corps, you'd probably find that people, almost > uniformly, would be willing to step onto an SRB on the next flight." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Engineers abhor extrapolation" > -- Ken Iliff, from _Runway to Orbit_, 2004 Actually, using a single SRB as a booster for a Titan III or Saturn IB-class ELV is an idea that has been around since the 1970s. When I worked at McDonnell Douglas on Phases A and B of the shuttle program (1969-70), this idea was one of the options that was under consideration. And 10 years earlier, there were a bunch of next generation Saturn vehicle studies that considered using SRMs as boosters, including Aerojet's humongous 260" dia solid, which still holds the record for the most thrust from a single-nozzle chemical rocket engine (5,700,000 pounds generated in a June 1967 test of the combustion chamber/nozzle assembly).
The J-2 was/is an excellent LOX/LH2 engine with an impressive service record. As near as I can figure, NASA contracted with Rocketdyne for 162 J-2 engines of which 104 were flight-certified. The Saturn Vs of the Apollo and Skylab programs used 83 of the flight engines and the Saturn IBs used another 9 engines. So there may be 12 J-2 flight-certified engines in storage along a few engine left over from the ground test program. Rocketdyne cannibalized some of the J-2 inventory for the linear aerospike engine that it was developing for the unfortunate X-33 vehicle, so there may be only a few complete J-2s remaining.
If more production is envisioned, I would think that the J-2S version of the J-2 is a better choice. The J-2S is a much simplified modification of the J-2 with 265,000 pounds of thrust and 436 sec specific impulse (vacuum conditions). In the late 1960s, six J-2S engines were tested (273 runs, 30,858 seconds of cumulative operating time).
Later Ray Schmitt
Damon Hill - 20 Sep 2004 04:18 GMT > If more production is envisioned, I would think that the J-2S version > of the J-2 is a better choice. The J-2S is a much simplified > modification of the J-2 with 265,000 pounds of thrust and 436 sec > specific impulse (vacuum conditions). In the late 1960s, six J-2S > engines were tested (273 runs, 30,858 seconds of cumulative operating > time). What was the nature of those modification/simplications? How might the J-2S compare to the modern RS-68?
--Damon
Ray Schmitt - 20 Sep 2004 18:51 GMT J-2S modifications: Chamber pressure increased from about 800 psia to 1200 psia. Centrifugal LH2 pump used instead of an axial design. J-2 gas generator replaced by a high pressure tap on the main combustion chamber to run the LOX and LH2 turbopumps. 6:1 trust thottling capability added to the J-2S (44,200 to 265,000 pounds). Minimized fastener count and welds. And IIRC the J-2S used ablators on the inside surface of the nozzle extender.
According to my buddies on the Boeing Delta IV project, the RS-68 engine (745,000 pounds of vacuum thrust) that powers the Common Booster Core (CBC) of that ELV has some of the design features of the J-2S.
Spaceflight Now (12Nov2002) has more details:
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/delta/delta4/021112rs68/
"Compared to the SSME, development time for the RS-68 was cut in half, the number of parts was reduced by 80 percent, the hand-touched labor reduced by 92 percent and non-recurring costs were cut by a factor of five.
"We've been able to get a lot of hand-work out of the RS-68 and replaced it with numerically-controlled machines. So instead of having a thrust chamber built up of a lot of tubes, we've machined this thing out of a solid piece of metal, which increases reliability," Collins said
The engine has 11 major components, including the combustion chamber, single oxygen and single hydrogen turbopumps, gimbal bearing, injector, gas generator, heat exchanger and fuel exhaust duct. It stands 17 feet tall, has a bell-shaped nozzle with an 8-foot diameter and features a quadrapod thrust frame that mates the engine to the Common Booster Core first stage.
"It has a regeneratively-cooled main chamber, which provides for operation of the engine in a gas generator cycle which means it has a small combustion chamber that drives the turbines. We made efficient use of the gases to do that by providing roll-control for the gases that exit the hydrogen turbopump," Wood explained."
IIRC the RS-68 uses ablative coatings in the high expansion part of its nozzle.
Later Ray Schmitt
> > If more production is envisioned, I would think that the J-2S version > > of the J-2 is a better choice. The J-2S is a much simplified [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Damon Damon Hill - 22 Sep 2004 02:31 GMT > J-2S modifications: Chamber pressure increased from about 800 psia to > 1200 psia. Centrifugal LH2 pump used instead of an axial design. J-2 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fastener count and welds. And IIRC the J-2S used ablators on the > inside surface of the nozzle extender. Combustion chamber tapoff seems to be very unusual; I didn't know any large engines had ever been built this way. Like the expander cycle RL10, I bet startup could be interesting in some circumstances.
> According to my buddies on the Boeing Delta IV project, the RS-68 > engine (745,000 pounds of vacuum thrust) that powers the Common > Booster Core (CBC) of that ELV has some of the design features of the > J-2S. There do seem to be similarities. I note the J-2S had a deep throttling capability. Wonder how easy it would be to scale down the RS-68, or throttle it down so as to take a J-2 upper stage engine replacement?
Thanks for all the details! You da man to ask!
--Damon
Ray Schmitt - 22 Sep 2004 06:18 GMT > > J-2S modifications: Chamber pressure increased from about 800 psia to > > 1200 psia. Centrifugal LH2 pump used instead of an axial design. J-2 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >snip Actually, the J-2S had/has extremely good combustion stability. And startup does not seem to have been a problem. Remember that the J-2 engine on the S-IVB stage had to be restartable, like the RL-10, so Rocketdyne worried a lot about startup anomalies.
During tests in one of the altitude chambers at the Air Force Arnold Engineeering Development Center (AEDC) in Tullahoma, TN, a J-2S engine operated stably with the turbopumps at zero speed using only the ullage pressure from the LOX and LH2 supply tanks. About 6,000 pounds of thrust were generated in that test with pressure-fed propellants.
Rocketdyne learned a lot from its struggle with combustion instability problems that plagued the early development of the F-1 engine. And the J-2 injector design benefited a lot from P&W's work on the RL-10, especially in the use of RigiMesh to control thermal problems in early Rocketdyne injector designs.
Later Ray Schmitt
Magnus Redin - 22 Sep 2004 17:40 GMT Hi!
> Actually, the J-2S had/has extremely good combustion stability. And startup > does not seem to have been a problem. Remember that the J-2 engine on the > S-IVB stage had to be restartable, like the RL-10, so Rocketdyne worried a > lot about startup anomalies. From astronautix.com J2S SSME Thrust in vacuum 1187 kN 2278 kN Specific impulse vacum/sea 426/200 sec 453/363 sec Chamber pressure bar 30 bar 204 bar lenght 2 m 1.63 m Height 3.38 m 4.24 m mass 1400 kg 3177 kg Thrust/weight 73 73
The main difference seems to be better sea level performance due to higher chamber preassure, otherwise I find them quite simillar. Why did NASA develop the SSME instead of designing the shuttle around the already available J2S?
And if I compare booster engines:
F1A SRB Thrust at sea level 9189 kN 11519 kN
What a waste of engineering hours the shuttle development became.
Best regards,
 Signature Min politiska hemsida http://www.lysator.liu.se/~redin uppdaterades senast 2004-04-19. Magnus Redin, Klockaregården 6, 586 44 LINKöPING, SWEDEN Phone: Sweden (0)13 34 00 676 or (0)705 16 00 46
Herb Schaltegger - 22 Sep 2004 17:56 GMT > The main difference seems to be better sea level performance due to > higher chamber preassure, otherwise I find them quite simillar. > Why did NASA develop the SSME instead of designing the shuttle around > the already available J2S? Take a look at real engineering analysis rather than a simple comparison in a table - that sea-level ISP is hugely important given the mass you need to lift off the ground *at sea level*.
With regard to the use of the F1 and its derivatives versus SRBs, well, that's another whole kettle of fish. Remember, the idea was that the SRBs would be reusable - NASA (and the bidding contractor teams) had no real grasp of the complexities of booster recovery and refurbishment. As these became apparent, the image of reusability became more important to NASA administrators than the reality.
 Signature Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D. "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." ~ Robert A. Heinlein <http://www.angryherb.net>
Magnus Redin - 22 Sep 2004 19:33 GMT Hi!
> Take a look at real engineering analysis rather than a simple > comparison in a table - that sea-level ISP is hugely important given > the mass you need to lift off the ground *at sea level*. True and the SSME turned out to be harder to build then anticipated.
> With regard to the use of the F1 and its derivatives versus SRBs, > well, that's another whole kettle of fish. Remember, the idea was > that the SRBs would be reusable - NASA (and the bidding contractor > teams) had no real grasp of the complexities of booster recovery and > refurbishment. As these became apparent, the image of reusability > became more important to NASA administrators than the reality. It is allways fun to speculate, and it is so easy with hindsight. ;-)
I like the proposal with a winged reusable Saturn 5 first stage, but it was big, very big.
With the design of the Saturn 5 only a few years before the shuttle studies it might have been fairly easy to design smaller stages.
For instance a first stage with two F1A:s, or three to have a margin for adding wings and flyback capability at a later date and to tolerate the loss of an engine earlier in flight.
Space station modules and heavy military satellites could then be launched with a J2S powered cargo upper stage.
And finally a J2S powered shuttle with internal fuel tanks. It would perhaps not have needed OMS engiens with deep throtteable J2S engines and the RCS system might have used gaseous H2 och O2 boiling from the fuel tanks.
And if the budget dictates a long shuttle development time they could have used Apollo capsules on top of the cargo stage.
Best regards,
 Signature Min politiska hemsida http://www.lysator.liu.se/~redin uppdaterades senast 2004-04-19. Magnus Redin, Klockaregården 6, 586 44 LINKöPING, SWEDEN Phone: Sweden (0)13 34 00 676 or (0)705 16 00 46
Ray Schmitt - 23 Sep 2004 00:50 GMT > Hi! > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Why did NASA develop the SSME instead of designing the shuttle around > the already available J2S?
> snip The important engine parameter when designing a launch vehicle is trajectory-averaged specific impulse (TASI). For the present shuttle with solid rocket boosters and LOX/LH2 sustaining propulsion, the TASI has to be in the 390-405 second range. The SRBs have pretty low specific impulse (Isp) ranging from about 242 seconds at sea level to about 269 seconds at burnout altitude (~ 26 n.mi reached 120 seconds after launch when the shuttle speed is about 3,000 mph). SRBs make lotsa thrust, but are pretty inefficient in terms of Isp.
To satisfy the TASI requirement, the shuttle's three SSMEs have to be extremely efficient to offset the relatively inefficient SRBs. It turns out that the Isp for the SSME has to be about 365 seconds at sea level and about 453 seconds at high altitude (vacuum conditions).
The kicker here is that the three SSMEs have to be reusable and have to fit in the limited space available in the aft fuselage section of the orbiter. There are two ways to raise specific impulse for a given propellant: increase the chamber pressure and/or increase the expansion ratio of the nozzle. Engines like the RL-10 and the J-2S that operate at relatively low chamber pressure (500-1200 psia) can reach 450 sec Isp in vacuum by using nozzle expansion ratios above 100:1. However, because of the design of the orbiter, the SSME nozzle expansion ratio is limited to about 77:1, since the nozzles have to have room to swivel in order to guide the orbiter on its flight trajectory. The SSME nozzles also have to be sufficiently small to "hide" behind the orbiter fuselage and the bottom flap so reentry heating doesn't melt the nozzle material, which is uncooled during reentry.
So back in 1971 when the SSME development started, NASA and Rocketdyne had to bite the bullet and design the SSME to operate at very high chamber pressure (~3,000 psia). This meant that the discharge pressure of the high pressure turbopumps would be in the 6,000-7,500 psia range. For the Saturn V the F-1 engine operated at 1,100 psia chamber pressure while the J-2 operated at 763 psia. It's a tribute to Rocketdyne that the SSME eventually was flight qualified (in 1970 about 9 years after development began). But these ultra-high pressures have taken a toll on engine parts, especially the turbopumps, and have been a signficant factor in the high shuttle operating cost. NASA spends about $200M per year (today's bucks) to keep the SSME inventory ready for flight, but on average only makes about 6 flights per year involving 18 SSMEs. So the annual operating cost is about $10M per SSME actually flown.
Once the orbiter configuration/dimensions had been established at the end of Phase B in Dec 1971, there was no way that the J-2 or J-2S engines could satisfy the design requirements. Those engines had too low thrust, too low Isp and too high nozzle expansion ratio. Besides, NASA realized during the shuttle Phase A and B work (1969-71) that to retain the expertise at Rocketdyne, which during the Apollo years had become NASA's preferred engine contractor, a new, advanced engine like the SSME had to be developed in order to provide the necessary challenge and incentive to keep it's core of expertise intact. In fact, Pratt & Whitney competed for the SSME and bitterly contested the award of the SSME production contract to Rocketdyne in July 1971. However, P&W's formal protest was disallowed by both NASA and the Government Accounting Office (GAO, now known as the "Government Accountability Office"). The rest, as they say, is history.
That's enough for now. Later Ray Schmitt
Magnus Redin - 23 Sep 2004 17:00 GMT Hi!
> The important engine parameter when designing a launch vehicle is > trajectory-averaged specific impulse (TASI). For the present shuttle [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seconds after launch when the shuttle speed is about 3,000 mph). > SRBs make lotsa thrust, but are pretty inefficient in terms of Isp. I am unfortunately not familiar with TASI, is it a calculation that averages all stages as if they were a single stage?
> To satisfy the TASI requirement, the shuttle's three SSMEs have to be > extremely efficient to offset the relatively inefficient SRBs. It turns out > that the Isp for the SSME has to be about 365 seconds at sea level and about > 453 seconds at high altitude (vacuum conditions).
> The kicker here is that the three SSMEs have to be reusable and have > to fit in the limited space available in the aft fuselage section of > the orbiter. My speculation were that it would have made more sense to design a shuttle around the J2S (and perhaps F1A) then to design a shuttle and then a new engine.
All liquid fueled engines that are easy to test are reusable and they get very expensive to develop if they are not easy to test run.
> There are two ways to raise specific impulse for a given propellant: > increase the chamber pressure and/or increase the expansion ratio of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the orbiter fuselage and the bottom flap so reentry heating doesn't > melt the nozzle material, which is uncooled during reentry. That was well written. J2S would have needed a shuttle with a wider fuselage. Like a shuttle with integral fuel tanks.
> Besides, NASA realized during the shuttle Phase A and B work > (1969-71) that to retain the expertise at Rocketdyne, which during > the Apollo years had become NASA's preferred engine contractor, a > new, advanced engine like the SSME had to be developed in order to > provide the necessary challenge and incentive to keep it's core of > expertise intact. It would have been wiser to order incremental development for flight engines and pure research and development work. *sigh*
Best regards,
 Signature Min politiska hemsida http://www.lysator.liu.se/~redin uppdaterades senast 2004-04-19. Magnus Redin, Klockaregården 6, 586 44 LINKöPING, SWEDEN Phone: Sweden (0)13 34 00 676 or (0)705 16 00 46
Ray Schmitt - 24 Sep 2004 02:03 GMT > Hi! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I am unfortunately not familiar with TASI, is it a calculation that > averages all stages as if they were a single stage?
> snip Not quite.
TASI is a single-number figure of merit that describes a particular vehicle flying a particular trajectory. TASI is a parameter calculated by standard, widely-used flight mechanics programs like POST (Program to Optimize Simulated Trajectories) and OTIS (Optimal Trajectories by Implicit Simulation).
Usually a "propulsive TASI" number is used. It's essentially an average over the time history of the instantaneous specific impulse of the propulsion system from liftoff to burnout, including drift periods during staging when thrust is zero..
Instantaneous Isp is the instantaneous thrust produced by the engines divided by the instantaneous propellant mass flow rate measured in compatible physical units.
In the metric system it would be thrust in newtons (N) and mass flow in kilograms per second (kg/s).
In the English system it's pounds of force divided by mass flow in pounds per second with the acceleration of gravity at sea level thrown in to get the correct numerics satisfying Newton's 2nd Law (F=ma).
The shuttle number I mentioned above is a propulsive TASI.
There's another similar single-number figure of merit called I* (I-star), which is the effective specific impulse for a particular vehicle flying a particular trajectory that accounts for trajectory losses (aerodynamic drag, gravity loss, imperfect guidance and control, etc) in the averaging process.
Later Ray Schmitt
Jake McGuire - 23 Sep 2004 20:23 GMT > The kicker here is that the three SSMEs have to be reusable and have to fit > in the limited space available in the aft fuselage section of the orbiter. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nozzles have to have room to swivel in order to guide the orbiter on its > flight trajectory. Increasing chamber pressure does relatively little to improve specific impulse in vacuum; that's pretty much determined by the propellant combination and expansion ratio.
It does make the engine smaller for a given thrust. To grossly oversimplify the engine thrust is more or less the chamber pressure times the throat area, so an increase in the chamber pressure requires a correspondingly smaller engine. This is not a trivial advantage; as you said the SSMEs had to fit in the base area of the orbiter, and extendable nozzles are commonplace on upper stages.
It also increases sea level thrust and specific impulse. A rocket operating in the atmosphere has back pressure losses equivalent to atmospheric pressure over the exhaust nozzle area; higher chamber pressures make the nozzle area smaller for a given expansion ratio so you spend less effort fighting the atmosphere and more generating thrust.
-jake
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