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The Rings of Earth

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Tim Tyler - 20 Aug 2008 16:49 GMT
The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon
there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation
will be part of the solution - but more drastic measures
will eventually also need to be taken.

Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving
mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on
which to house additional real estate and infrastructure
in near-earth orbit.

 http://timtyler.org/the_rings_of_earth/

Enjoy,
--
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Alan Erskine - 20 Aug 2008 17:08 GMT
> The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon
> there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation
> will be part of the solution - but more drastic measures
> will eventually also need to be taken.

Real estate isn't the issue.  For instance, if Australia had sufficient
water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million,
instead of the 21 million we currently have.

With recent discoveries, such as Terra Preta (soil conditioning using char
[charcoal]) and other processes, we can grow more than enough food on
current land to triple our population.  That means that Earch can easily
support 20 billion people.  20 years ago, it was assumed that Earth could
support less than 10 billion, but advances in agriculture (and Terra Preta)
will more than double that figure.

While it has only taken eight years to increase our population by 1 billion
additional people, population growth will slow down as the population ages
and the better chances of survival in places like Africa, South America and
Asia will lead to a slow-down in population growth also.  I believe that
Earth's human population will level out at about 15 billion - that's over 50
years from now; I'll be long gone (or on the way out the door, at least) and
I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time soon.

Land for people to live on is not as scarce as agricultural land (see the
first paragraph as an example).  Food is one of the main transport items
across oceans by ship; that will only increase as time goes by.  However,
with artificially-produced water (desalination), Australia's population
could increase many times.
Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 00:14 GMT
> "Tim Tyler" <seemy...@googlemail.com> wrote in message

> > The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon
> > there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million,
> instead of the 21 million we currently have.

Yes - I also have some pages about water:

 http://timtyler.org/rainwater_harvesting/
 http://timtyler.org/dew_harvesting/
 http://timtyler.org/irrigation/

...but these are not really sci.space.policy material.

I note that there are many billions of tons of ice on the moon.
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Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 21 Aug 2008 03:16 GMT
Real estate isn't the problem.  Resources are the problem.  For
example, the USA consumes 6.8 billion barrels of crude oil each year
and has only 28 billion barrels in all of its wells - and the USA is
the richest nation on Earth!

We are running short of fresh water and arable land.  We're fouling
the air, and running short of resources as mentioned.

The world is nearly a sphere with a 40,000 km circumference.  This
implies a 12,730 km diameter, which means it has a surface area of
509.3 trillion square meters.  2/3 of this area is water.  1/3 of this
area is land.  169.7 trillion square meters.

There are 6.8 billion human beings and if each family of four occupied
10,000 square meters (1 hectare, or 107,639 sq ft, or 2.47 acres) -
they would occupy 10% of the world's surface area!

So, selecting 10% of the world's most valued surface area - and
developing it with 2.47 acre estates - would leave 90% of the world
untouched - IF WE HAD THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT.

That's the rub.

Now, we can get resources off world.  Here's what has become known as
the Mok Program;

 1) develop low-cost terrestrial solar power to generate hydrogen for
less than $200 per metric ton.  Generate 850 million tons of hydrogen
and use it to replace 5.5 billion tons of coal in the world's coal
fired power plants, eliminating the bulk of our carbon emissions.
THEN, use an additional 610 million tons of hydrogen to directly
hydrogenate the coal to produce 38.5 billion barrels of liquid fuels.
Since the world consumes 23.8 billion barrels of liquid fuels, this
provides a means to ease our reliance on liquid fuels, provide for
growth, while reducing are carbon emissions.  Use hydrogen with
atmospheric nitrogren to make anhydrous ammonia for fertilizer and
sell it at cost increasing farm output.  Furthermore, adapt
construction of large panel arrays to construction of low cost
inflatable housing barns and greenhouses.  To generate 1,260 million
tons of hydrogen from water electrolytically requires  70,560 million
MWh of solar electricity.  Each square kilometer of solar panels
produces 180 MW of power when illuminated, and placed in desert areas
are exposed to 1,700 hours of sunlight per year.  This requires a
total of 230,588 sq km of solar panels.  16 million sq km of deserts
exist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deserts_by_area

and I have organized 250,000 sq km of desert lands from a handful of
mine owners for placement of my solar panels

http://www.usoal.com

So, we have the capacity to do this.  The amount of money the world
spends each year on energy is $4.1 trillion.   The amount of money the
world creates each year  with that energy is $66 trillion.   The
amount of liquid assets held by the world's 9.5 million milionaires is
$38 trillion.  The cost of covering 230,588 sq km with solar panels is
$2.9 trillion using my system.  The cost of coal conversion is $1.9
trillion.  So, clearly, the millionaires of this world can be
motivated to invest in this system,once the details are worked out
favorably.

2) Take the revenue stream from profits earned in synthetic crude oil
sales, and buy out the major aerospace companies.  Use these assets to
construct a private launch facility in Colorado, and build a 550
metric tons to geosynch orbit heavy lift reusable launch veihcle.
With this vehicle orbit 660 satellites in groups of 33 in coplanar sun
synch polar orbit.  Each satellite is equipped with a phased array
uplink downlink and an open optical satellite to satellite data link
at 20 terabits per second.  Fully populated this network paints an
array of virtual cells on the Earth's surface providing 50 billion
wireless internet connections worldwide.

http://www.unh.edu/NIS/Courses/Graphics/Animated/teledesic.gif

With this network everyone has a i-phone, and data connection.
Furthermore,everyone has access to financial, insurance, retirement,
and banking services.  The value of these services in the world
exceeds $330 billion per year - among the 1.8 billion wealthiest
folks.  Adding the balance of humanity, adds another $170 billion per
year - with the capacity to grow the world's economy at double digit
rates. (end energy shortages, drop energy prices slightly, and
stabilize global markets, while increasing food production and
reducing food prices)

The cost of the system is expected to be $20 million per satellite, or
$13.2 billion - with $500 billion in revenues, this is clearly an
important profit center.

Another important aspect, is that this $13.2 billion includes the cost
of bilding a heavy lift RLV and launch center.  Capturing 15% of the
$500 billion generated by the network, to be put into space
development, generates $75 billion annually, which is more than ALL
the space programs of ALL the nations of Earth.  This combined with
ownership of the space manufacturing assets of the world's major
aerospace companies - allows virtually unlimite development of off
world assets and resources,

Develop a tele-presence and tele-robotic capacity using global network
- basically develop a biometric measurement transfer protocol.  bmtp://
to use over wireless global broadband - to implement this capacity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIMO

This allows people to work anywhere and live anywhere else - reduces
the need for roadways and automobiles - and expands the opportunities
for billions of people while improving the availability of goods and
services.  .

3) Build heavy lift launchers to put up large thin film solar power
satellites.  These satellites use inflatable optics to concentrate
sunlight to a point, where solar pumped laser arrays are located.
These lasers use conjugate optical processes to safely and reliably
and efficiently beam down band-gap matched laser energy to the
existing solar panel arrays described previously.  These solar power
satellites increase the energy output of the solar panels 16 times!
As they develop, hydrogen displaces hydro-carbon as the major fuel of
humanity - providing 20.1 billion tons per year of hydrogen from this
source.  This represents a 20 fold increase in total energy usage by
humanity.  With a 7% per year growth rate in energy use, this process
will sustain this level of growth for the next 45 years to 2053 - with
average global income $190,000 per person per year .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIMO

This will require that 520 satellites each 25 km in diameter are
orbited over this period, to illuminate the original 250,000 sq km of
solar panels.   There is enough space in GEO to possess 8,377
powersats.   This allows another 16 fold increase in energy output -
allowing another 41 years of 7% per year compounded growth to 2094 AD
- with an average global income of $3.1 million per person per year.

Experts indicate that by 2050 we'll have human level computing

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

to augment our tele-operated robot system.  These teleoperated system
will be in place in the 2010s, and the software to displace humans
will be largely in place starting in the late 2030s and displace all
economic activities by 2050s.  In this time period, expect demand for
energy to continue to rise as all people on Earth have incomes that
rise above $1 million per person per year.

The energy from the additional satellites will not be beamed to
stationary collectors, but rather beame at 650 W/cm2 directly to end
users - to homes located anywhere, aircraft, ships - to provide any
amount of power needed.  While oil ouput moderate in the 2010s to be
supplanted by hydrogen production as the economy grow through the
2020s - so too, by 2040s hydrogen volume will level out, and new
growth will be in the form of direct beaming of power.

The development of propulsive skin spacecraft with large arrays of
MEMs base rockets

http://www.me.berkeley.edu/mrcl/rockets.html

powere by laser beams from space - will make personal ballistic travel
a safe reliable reality for everyone.  Anyone will be able to travel
anywhere at a moments notice and take less than 42 minutes to get
there.  Anyone can attain orbit in less than 12 minutes using this
technology.

4) Use heavy lift capacity to send manned expeditions to survey the
asteroids and return the richest of these to Earth orbit.  Use heavy
lift capacity to send up telerobotic and later fully automated- mines,
smelting operations,factories, farms and forests - to create raw
materials, industrial goods, consumer goods, food and fiber on orbit -
using solar energy - and deorbit using solar powered rail guns - and
GPS guide re-entryvehicles - with propulsive skin landing rockets - to
deliver products directly to consumers anywhere on Earth anytime of
the day or night.

Large pressure vessels on orbit are built to house factories, then
farms, and then forests on orbit - easing the demand on Earth for farm
lands, commercial forests, mines and so forth.

Solar powered rail guns on the Earth's surface cheaply send waste
materials back to orbit as needed.

1 mile diameter pressure vessels are folded for re-entry and inflated
while descending to Earth.  These floating cities operate like hot air
balloons.  They are powered by laser beams from space, and supplied
from orbiting factories, forests and farms.  Each houses 150,000
people - and provides labor telerobotically, and personal ballisitic
transport.   20,000 such free flying cities - similar to Buckminster
Fuller's CLOUD NINE CITIES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_nine_(Tensegrity_sphere)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ldjjj/109033997/

provide refuge to the planet's poorest 3 billion people in the 2020
time frame - but become passe as global development surpasses the
living standards offered in these cities.

The next step will be the production of pressure vessels on orbit,
from asteroidal materials - to create personally owned SPACE HOMES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder

Unlike the space colonies of the 1970s - these are individually owned
by families and orbit in a polar orbit - ringlike - similar to
Saturn's rings - with the asteroidal feedstock and factories acting
like shepherd moons.  billions of free flying pressure vessels provide
homes for every man woman and child on the planet.  This combined with
robot labor, and space laser powered MEMs rocket vehicles - provide a
means to quickly and efficiently reduce Earth populations..

5) Use heavy lift launch capacity to orbit large SUN ORBITING power
satellites within 3 million km of the sun.  These are basically the
focal point of the other satellites without the concentrator - built
on a larger scale - and sent to orbit near the sun - to generate
trillions of watts of power at 1/100th the cost of 'conventional'
power satellites.  A single ring of 188,495 satellites each 100 km in
diameter intercept 5 million trillion watts enough to sustain 7%
annual growth until 2193 AD.

These sun orbiting satellites beam energy to modified 'conventional'
solar panels that receive intense laser energy - for beam upgrades -
but most importantly, the number of space homes are spreading out from
Earth orbit as propulsive units are added to the Space Homes.

This high powered solar power satellite is a precursor to Bob
Forward's vision of using laser powered light sails to drive mult-
generation space stations across the interstellar deeps in a few
decades.

http://www.robertforward.com/Fast_Forward_Fifty_Years.htm

The same technology can be used to build up interplanetary transport
capacity as you build it out.

6) Population growth rate peaked in 1960s and dropped after that.
Even though total population is still rising its not rising as fast.
That's because as you move from subsistence living to industrial
living, population growth rates rise as more folks have access to
medical care and food.  As income rises above $20,000 per person per
year - increasing opportunities lead to lower population growth rates
- until you reach zero population growth at $30,000 per person per
year.  The USA Europe Saudi Arabia and Japan have zpg when you
subtract out immigration.  As the world income rises above $30,000 per
person per year - which will be achieved in 2025 - at 7% growth
rate.

There will likely be another spurt in growth as longevity increases at
more than 1 year per year - which will also happen in 2025.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_de_Grey

This will slow the dropping of population growth rates - but they will
eventually drop below zero - before 2050 - even with longevity
increases.

With the advent of human level computing the real problem will be the
rise in non-human robot populations.  Robots will likely exceed humans
as soon as they are capable of independent AI driven action.  They
will be constructed cheaply and easily well before 2020 - and with
human level AI and superhuman level AI - available between 2030-2050
time frame - the demand for these systems will rise rapidly.  By 2100
- humans will be around what they are today in total number - but
robot population will exceed human population - growing to 20
billions.  Humans however will be leaving Earth in growing numbers -
with 7 billion humans alive, 1  billion on Earth terrestrial, 2
billion in floating sky cities, 3.5 billion in Earth orbit, and 0.49
billion spread throughout the solar system and 0.01 billion heading
toward nearby stars.

This will be the beginning of diaspora.  Because even with infinite
life spans - we will still die of accidents.  And while we will grow
increasingly careful, these finite spans will mean with lower birth
rates, populations will start to decline albeit slowly.

Removing all aging and disease effects from actuarial data indicates
that humans will live to be around 350 years old with perfect
medicines.  Eliminating automobile and aircraft accidents - the
largest remaining cause of death - life extends to 690 years.
Eliminating homicide - it extends to 2,800 years.  Basically, with
perfect medicine and control of aging processes, you die in a car
crash or airplane crash.  With automated cars and planes that are
super-safe, you are murdered by a jealous lover, create an automated
security force - and you die in house fires - make houses safer you
die in lightning strikes, or falling off a cliff and so forth.

Of course distribution around the mean becomes greater.  While the
average is 2,800 years say - you will still have some who wil drown in
the pool at 9 and some who will live to be 20,000...

Despite the growing number of people however, expanding the range of
humans from Earth to the solar system to other solar systems - will
reduce population density.

The sun is one star among hundreds of billions of stars in a galaxy
that is one among hundreds of billions of galaxies - a universe of
10,000s of billions of billions of stars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBsOeLcUARw

As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over
thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human
level robots per human being...  spreading out at a large fraction of
light speed from sol, to nearby stars.

There will always be less than 10 billion people by this measure, and
likely always less than 1 trillion robots - if robots don't attain a
'will to power' and a self-reproductive capacity which THEY control.
This number of people and robots will spread across thousands, then
millions then billions then hundreds of billions of stars over a
period of dozens, hundreds and thousands of years.

By this process alone - human density will fall well below 1 planet
per human family.

7) time travel - laser light sails that travel at half light speed
will be used not only to move space homes, freight and probes to
nearby stars, but also a new class of collider - where large masses of
iron are caused to collide at half light speed - forming minature
black hole dusts.  Charging and spinning these dusts create a new form
of engineered product.
Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 08:15 GMT
On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:

> As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over
> thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human
> level robots per human being...

Thousands of years?!?  Give me a break.

In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
like a human.
--
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Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 21 Aug 2008 21:42 GMT
> On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
> like a human.

Depends on details you haven't thought about.  Fact is, humans have
been genetically pretty stable for 10,000s of years - and likely will
be around for at least 10,000s of years in the future.  While genetic
engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly
produce new life forms, and new intelligent life forms, it is not
clear that those life forms will dominate in this tim period.  While
these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome,
it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to
accelerate the rate of useful genetic change in humans.  everyone's
eyes being blue, or everyone's face being symmetrically beautiful, or
the absence of disease processes - are useful changes, but do not
change what it is to BE human.  Radical shifts in body form,
conciousness and so forth, are likely to result schisms and failures,
and we'll go through cycles - but in the end, humans 10,000 years from
now - especially with time dilation and stasis for long duration
journeys -which slow genetic shift - will be pretty much as they are
today.
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 19:07 GMT
On Aug 21, 9:42 pm, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over
> > > thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> been genetically pretty stable for 10,000s of years - and likely will
> be around for at least 10,000s of years in the future.

Ah, the "it's happened before, so it'll happen again" argument for
human persistence.

I would describe that as "ignoring the effects of AI, engineering,
nanotechnology, science and technology".

> While genetic
> engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly
> produce new life forms, and new intelligent life forms, it is not
> clear that those life forms will dominate in this tim period.

If you were talking about the next 100 years, you might have
a point.  But the idea that our pathetic slug-like bodies and
dim-witted brains might last another 10,000 is both incredible
and ridiculous.

> While these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome,
> it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> journeys -which slow genetic shift - will be pretty much as they are
> today.

Right - but they'll exist in the virtual museum of natural history.
--
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Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 25 Aug 2008 16:48 GMT
> On Aug 21, 9:42 pm, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Ah, the "it's happened before, so it'll happen again" argument for
> human persistence.

No, I'm talking about human history, not dominant life - whatever that
means.  I just know what humans like and don't like.  Humans don't
like taking orders from other humans, they sure as hell won't take
orders from non-human intelligences - so as far as human space is
concerned, humans will dominate if they exist at all.

> I would describe that as "ignoring the effects of AI, engineering,
> nanotechnology, science and technology".

On what?  I have no doubt that there will be human and super human and
non human intelligence well before the middle of the 21st century.  I
have no doubt that we will have a technological singularity well
before then.  That doesn't change human history.  The history of the
dominant life form might be something else than human history.  But
I'm talking about human history.  And in human history,humans will
dominate their space - and have a separate human culture - and within
that context they'll dominate.

> > While genetic
> > engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you were talking about the next 100 years, you might have
> a point.

No, the technological singularity is nearer than that - 2040 - we'll
do anything that its technically possible to do.  A Dirac
discontinuity - an infinity of progress in a finite time -
unimaginable potential and capabilities - how we enter the
discontinuty, determines the trajectory when we pass through.

Humans will still exist 'over the rainbow' - sure there may be wicked
witches, and tin men, and all manner of intelligences in Oz over the
rainbow, but human culture, human beings and human history - will have
humans dominate - if humans are free..

> But the idea that our pathetic slug-like bodies

You obviously haven't watched the Olympics - how much do you bench?
how often do you exercise?   run?

> and
> dim-witted brains

how many languages do you speak?  how many musical instruments do you
play?  how many computer languages are you fluent in?

> might last another 10,000 is both incredible
> and ridiculous.

WORMS still exist and have existed for billions of years.  Alligators
have existed for hundreds of millions of years.   What makes you think
humans won't exist for similarly long periods of time?

> > While these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome,
> > it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Right - but they'll exist in the virtual museum of natural history.

Who's museum is that exactly?   I am writing about human history -
humans don't take orders from each otehr let alone other species.
Within the context of human culture humans will dominate and that will
be enough for humans.  Some other non human intelligence may at some
time say they're in charge of things, and may from time to time turn
deadly to humans for incomprehensible reasons for humans - just as
ants survive on the leavings of humans, and from time to time die in
large numbers when the humans are cleaning house.  The ants still
survive, and I doubt if the ants even know they're not in charge - in
fact, if you were to study an ant colony in the corner of the
baseboard fo your kitchen, you might well believe they are in charge -
as long as no one's paying attention to them.

> __________
>  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
> reply.
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:28 GMT
> In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
> like a human.

At the moment the dominant form of life doesn't look like a human - by
mass, it looks a lot more like a krill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology)
I propose building a ring of krill around the earth.
Why?
Why _not_?
That's what I ask when looking boldly into to-morrow.
Suction and Pressure; Zig-Zag-and-Swirl:
http://www.pacifier.com/~dkossy/lawsonomy.html

Pat
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 22:38 GMT
> > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
> > like a human.
>
> At the moment the dominant form of life doesn't look like a human - by
> mass, it looks a lot more like a krill:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology)

Dominance is not measured in grams.  Just ask Hitler.
--
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Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2008 00:51 GMT
> Dominance is not measured in grams.  Just ask Hitler.
>  

The Nazis are gone... but the Krill are still here.
They were here long before humanity evolved, and they will probably be
here long after humanity is gone.
Particularly after they evolve technology and destroy all the sea
creatures that feed on them.
See them now, setting forth on their conquest of the oceans - wearing
tiny suits of armor and bearing weapons, both made of nearly
indestructible Krill Metal.

Pat
Tim Tyler - 23 Aug 2008 07:33 GMT
> The Nazis are gone... but the Krill are still here.
> They were here long before humanity evolved, and they will probably be
> here long after humanity is gone.
> Particularly after they evolve technology and destroy all the sea
> creatures that feed on them.

Not much chance of that.  More likely we will wipe out most of the
Krill - like this: http://hex.alife.co.uk/ocean_reclamation/
--
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BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:50 GMT
> > > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
> > > like a human.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Dominance is not measured in grams.  Just ask Hitler.

Or ask our resident LLPOF warlord(GW Bush), or ask those of his puppet-
masters, Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger.  Don't forget our Zionist/
Nazi DARPA.

 ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 23 Aug 2008 14:41 GMT
> > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing
> > like a human.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Pat

We're talking about humans, and the true future of humans not about
the dominant life whateve that means.

Now before we talk about that lets talk about the responses here.

Consider please that there are some humans due to poor upbringing that
are unhappy with their lives.  In fact according to some experts like
Alice Miller this is the dominant mode of relating to the world in the
present time.  It leads to a fascinatino with power, money and death.
Gives rise to war and terror and drug use and all manner of addictions
as a means to escape.   Experts do say that at some point humanity
will be saner, but they'll have to deal with the present crisis of
spirit.

Now, in a world full of people most of whom are unhappy with their
situation, due to poor upbringing, there are certain common belief
systems where their unhappiness can be dealt with.

So, sometimes that comes out as hatred of others.  Sometimes that
comes out as hatred of self.  Sometimes even it comes out as hatred of
everything - even our species.

Some of those folks who hate everything because they are unhappy- due
to poor upbringing - idealize another time and place.

Some idealize the past,
some idealize another culture,
some idealize some fantasy place, heaven,

or the future.

Some of those who idealize the future say and do and think things that
denigrate human beings as they are right now.  It makes them happy to
do this, and because it makes them happy, it must be true.  To think
otherwise is to enlarge their pain - which is intolerable.

So, folks like that read a statement about the future of humans, and
can't read that statement - because in that statement it violates a
fantasy belief about the future that makes them feel better.  So, they
respond to that feeling being violated.

They cannot think of humanity at any time being redeemed and happy and
fulfilled.  It diminishes their miserable life.  So, they've got to
say denigrating things no matter how insane or off-topic.

Krill are the dominant life form - or - other non-human species will
be developed that will kick human a.s - humans will exist as a virtual
model in a computer based museum for other superior life forms to look
upon and marvel at..

regardless of the accuracy of these beliefs, they are not germaine to
my analysis of the future of humanity.  Further, these are clearly the
result of the process of dealing with the pain of being themselves for
these people in the present day and age and are not based on any
logical process derived from a clear analysis or understanding of my
statements.  Even though they will deny it to their dying breath -
because that's the nature of the sort of pain they're dealing with.
Its the only true feeling they know, and despite the pain - they want
it - they just want to be more comfortable with it- by adopting crazy
ideas or crazy beliefs or crazy behaviors.

Obviously, I am talking about the future of humans.  Humans being the
way they are, will always be in charge of human culture.  I don't see
them bowing down to another species for any reason.  Lesser species
will be controlled or eaten.  Humans will attempt to exclude other
creatures that compete with humans and do not help them in human space
where humans live.

Hell, humans in the present age, compete with each other over the most
minor differences.  There is no way humans are going to live in a
culture where humans do not dominate at least the local landscape with
humans in charge, no matter how advanced things get for other sorts of
creatures.  This may explain why if there are alien species out there,
why they're not to interested in dealing with humans at this
juncture.

Humans don't like having bosses.  They like being their own boss.  The
idea that tools and so forth will become the boss of humans, or that
tools will be PERMITTED to gain a 'will to power' independent of what
humans desire - is a non starter for this reason.

None of these facts will change the minds of folks who hate their
current lives and want to see humans kissing someone elses a.s - even
if its a lowly krill.  haha.. but the minds of those sorts of people
are warped by illogical and deeply emotional needs stemming from
unrelenting pain of a failed childhood and can thus be ignored.
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:45 GMT
> On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
> reply.

Our willie.moo (aka pretend-Atheist and born-again bipolar liar) is
nearly always chuck full of it.

We humans have been doing a real bang-up job of creating our own
demise.

Most complex forms of terrestrial life far exceeds in population and
tonnage to that of mere humans as is.  The future w/o fossil energy or
affordable alternatives is going to become extremely tough on the
survival of our human species.

 ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
OM - 21 Aug 2008 06:00 GMT
>Real estate isn't the issue.  For instance, if Australia had sufficient
>water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million,
>instead of the 21 million we currently have.

...Then again, you wouldn't pack every square inch with people. You'd
create large protected forest regions to help scrub the atmosphere. If
the leaders of the African nations had a clue beyond tribal
boundaries, they'd use the resources they have - and they've got some
really big untapped oil reserves - to buy a few dozen nuke plants to
run massive desalinization plants to pump water throughout the Sahara
and convert the desert into a jungle. But that would be the rational
thing to do, and you don't see that happen all that often where
geopolitics are concerned.

                OM
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Alan Erskine - 21 Aug 2008 12:50 GMT
>>Real estate isn't the issue.  For instance, if Australia had sufficient
>>water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> thing to do, and you don't see that happen all that often where
> geopolitics are concerned.

Don't even need nukes - there's a process called "Flash Evaporation" - all
it takes is 120C and you get fresh water from sea water.  70% of Saudi
Arabia's water comes from flash evaporation systems - they build a new
electricty plant and make water from the waste heat.  You could use solar
thermal energy for the flash evaporators.  Easy peasy.
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:33 GMT
> Don't even need nukes - there's a process called "Flash Evaporation" - all
> it takes is 120C and you get fresh water from sea water.  70% of Saudi
> Arabia's water comes from flash evaporation systems - they build a new
> electricty plant and make water from the waste heat.  You could use solar
> thermal energy for the flash evaporators.  Easy peasy.

Ever seen this thing?: http://www.enviromission.com.au/
http://www.enviromission.com.au/images/82.hi.jpg

Pat

>  
OM - 21 Aug 2008 06:01 GMT
>I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time soon.

...How *dare* you leave your personal troll a straight line like that,
Alan! It's not even Chrisnukkah :-)

                OM
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  ]        Let's face it: Sometimes you *need*         [
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  ]=====================================[

Alan Erskine - 21 Aug 2008 12:50 GMT
>>I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time
>>soon.
>
> ...How *dare* you leave your personal troll a straight line like that,
> Alan! It's not even Chrisnukkah :-)

That idiot can't even spell ni.... never mind.
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 21:58 GMT
> Real estate isn't the issue.  For instance, if Australia had sufficient
> water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million,
> instead of the 21 million we currently have.
>  

There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life
whose life cycle is related to tides will probably go extinct.
That might include women, who have a menstrual cycle of the same
duration as the lunar cycle.
Picture all the women in Australia in a state of permanent premenstrual
stress...Kylie Minogue would be as dangerous as a Sydney Funnel Web Spider.

Pat
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 22:37 GMT
> There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life
> whose life cycle is related to tides will probably go extinct.
> That might include women, who have a menstrual cycle of the same
> duration as the lunar cycle.

Stuff and nonsense!  Vulcanism might be reduced, though.

Anyhow, the moon is pretty big.  the ring system of Saturn
is estimated to have a mass a million times smaller than that
of the moon.
--
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|im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
reply.
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2008 00:37 GMT
>  
>> There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Stuff and nonsense!  Vulcanism might be reduced, though.
>  

Well, you saw how bitchy T'Pau could get in "Amok Time".
You know why?
Vulcan has no moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(Star_Trek_planet)
Permanent premenstrual stress. :-D

Pat
Claude Hopper - 21 Aug 2008 02:39 GMT
> The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon
> there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
> reply.

The people are too retarded to be interested in space exploration and
settlement. Why do you suppose we haven't been to the moon in 40 years?
Christian retards is the answer.

Signature

Claude Hopper  ? 3     :)  7/8

Rand Simberg - 21 Aug 2008 03:35 GMT
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:39:04 -0400, in a place far, far away, Claude
Hopper <boobooililililil@roadrunner.com> made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

>> The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon
>> there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>settlement. Why do you suppose we haven't been to the moon in 40 years?
>Christian retards is the answer.

That's so stupid, it's hilarious.
OM - 21 Aug 2008 05:56 GMT
>Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving
>mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on
>which to house additional real estate and infrastructure
>in near-earth orbit.

...One thing I've never been able to figure out is why .policy always
manages to attract the kooks, nutjobs and morons like this.

                OM
Signature

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  ]   OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld   [
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  ]          an obnoxious opinion in your day!           [
  ]=====================================[

Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 08:07 GMT
> >Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving
> >mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ...One thing I've never been able to figure out is why .policy always
> manages to attract the kooks, nutjobs and morons like this.

Hi!  Do you have some more specific criticism?

Ad hominen attacks don't seem worth addressing.
--
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|im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
reply.
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:39 GMT
> > >Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving
> > >mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org  Remove lock to
> reply.

The DARPA/NASA of our mainstream status quo damage-control is every
bit as faith-based important as anything on Earth.  99.9% of this
Google/NOVA hosted form of Usenet/newsgroups is either mainstream in
charge, or having been fully snookered and dumbfounded past the point
of no return.

It's exactly what Hitler counted on, and got from his Zionist/Nazi
minions.

 ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 25 Aug 2008 17:00 GMT
Using small shaped nuclear explosions to produce jets of materil from
asteroids as a means to move them, can be used to deflect Earth
crossing asteroids into orbits around the moon, or Earth - and then
tele-robotic labor is placed on orbit with solar powered equipment to
process the asteroidal material into useful products on orbit, and
even on Earth.
 
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