The Rings of Earth
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Tim Tyler - 20 Aug 2008 16:49 GMT The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation will be part of the solution - but more drastic measures will eventually also need to be taken.
Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on which to house additional real estate and infrastructure in near-earth orbit.
http://timtyler.org/the_rings_of_earth/
Enjoy, -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Alan Erskine - 20 Aug 2008 17:08 GMT > The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon > there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation > will be part of the solution - but more drastic measures > will eventually also need to be taken. Real estate isn't the issue. For instance, if Australia had sufficient water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million, instead of the 21 million we currently have.
With recent discoveries, such as Terra Preta (soil conditioning using char [charcoal]) and other processes, we can grow more than enough food on current land to triple our population. That means that Earch can easily support 20 billion people. 20 years ago, it was assumed that Earth could support less than 10 billion, but advances in agriculture (and Terra Preta) will more than double that figure.
While it has only taken eight years to increase our population by 1 billion additional people, population growth will slow down as the population ages and the better chances of survival in places like Africa, South America and Asia will lead to a slow-down in population growth also. I believe that Earth's human population will level out at about 15 billion - that's over 50 years from now; I'll be long gone (or on the way out the door, at least) and I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time soon.
Land for people to live on is not as scarce as agricultural land (see the first paragraph as an example). Food is one of the main transport items across oceans by ship; that will only increase as time goes by. However, with artificially-produced water (desalination), Australia's population could increase many times.
Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 00:14 GMT > "Tim Tyler" <seemy...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> > The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon > > there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million, > instead of the 21 million we currently have. Yes - I also have some pages about water:
http://timtyler.org/rainwater_harvesting/ http://timtyler.org/dew_harvesting/ http://timtyler.org/irrigation/
...but these are not really sci.space.policy material.
I note that there are many billions of tons of ice on the moon. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 21 Aug 2008 03:16 GMT Real estate isn't the problem. Resources are the problem. For example, the USA consumes 6.8 billion barrels of crude oil each year and has only 28 billion barrels in all of its wells - and the USA is the richest nation on Earth!
We are running short of fresh water and arable land. We're fouling the air, and running short of resources as mentioned.
The world is nearly a sphere with a 40,000 km circumference. This implies a 12,730 km diameter, which means it has a surface area of 509.3 trillion square meters. 2/3 of this area is water. 1/3 of this area is land. 169.7 trillion square meters.
There are 6.8 billion human beings and if each family of four occupied 10,000 square meters (1 hectare, or 107,639 sq ft, or 2.47 acres) - they would occupy 10% of the world's surface area!
So, selecting 10% of the world's most valued surface area - and developing it with 2.47 acre estates - would leave 90% of the world untouched - IF WE HAD THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT.
That's the rub.
Now, we can get resources off world. Here's what has become known as the Mok Program;
1) develop low-cost terrestrial solar power to generate hydrogen for less than $200 per metric ton. Generate 850 million tons of hydrogen and use it to replace 5.5 billion tons of coal in the world's coal fired power plants, eliminating the bulk of our carbon emissions. THEN, use an additional 610 million tons of hydrogen to directly hydrogenate the coal to produce 38.5 billion barrels of liquid fuels. Since the world consumes 23.8 billion barrels of liquid fuels, this provides a means to ease our reliance on liquid fuels, provide for growth, while reducing are carbon emissions. Use hydrogen with atmospheric nitrogren to make anhydrous ammonia for fertilizer and sell it at cost increasing farm output. Furthermore, adapt construction of large panel arrays to construction of low cost inflatable housing barns and greenhouses. To generate 1,260 million tons of hydrogen from water electrolytically requires 70,560 million MWh of solar electricity. Each square kilometer of solar panels produces 180 MW of power when illuminated, and placed in desert areas are exposed to 1,700 hours of sunlight per year. This requires a total of 230,588 sq km of solar panels. 16 million sq km of deserts exist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deserts_by_area
and I have organized 250,000 sq km of desert lands from a handful of mine owners for placement of my solar panels
http://www.usoal.com
So, we have the capacity to do this. The amount of money the world spends each year on energy is $4.1 trillion. The amount of money the world creates each year with that energy is $66 trillion. The amount of liquid assets held by the world's 9.5 million milionaires is $38 trillion. The cost of covering 230,588 sq km with solar panels is $2.9 trillion using my system. The cost of coal conversion is $1.9 trillion. So, clearly, the millionaires of this world can be motivated to invest in this system,once the details are worked out favorably.
2) Take the revenue stream from profits earned in synthetic crude oil sales, and buy out the major aerospace companies. Use these assets to construct a private launch facility in Colorado, and build a 550 metric tons to geosynch orbit heavy lift reusable launch veihcle. With this vehicle orbit 660 satellites in groups of 33 in coplanar sun synch polar orbit. Each satellite is equipped with a phased array uplink downlink and an open optical satellite to satellite data link at 20 terabits per second. Fully populated this network paints an array of virtual cells on the Earth's surface providing 50 billion wireless internet connections worldwide.
http://www.unh.edu/NIS/Courses/Graphics/Animated/teledesic.gif
With this network everyone has a i-phone, and data connection. Furthermore,everyone has access to financial, insurance, retirement, and banking services. The value of these services in the world exceeds $330 billion per year - among the 1.8 billion wealthiest folks. Adding the balance of humanity, adds another $170 billion per year - with the capacity to grow the world's economy at double digit rates. (end energy shortages, drop energy prices slightly, and stabilize global markets, while increasing food production and reducing food prices)
The cost of the system is expected to be $20 million per satellite, or $13.2 billion - with $500 billion in revenues, this is clearly an important profit center.
Another important aspect, is that this $13.2 billion includes the cost of bilding a heavy lift RLV and launch center. Capturing 15% of the $500 billion generated by the network, to be put into space development, generates $75 billion annually, which is more than ALL the space programs of ALL the nations of Earth. This combined with ownership of the space manufacturing assets of the world's major aerospace companies - allows virtually unlimite development of off world assets and resources,
Develop a tele-presence and tele-robotic capacity using global network - basically develop a biometric measurement transfer protocol. bmtp:// to use over wireless global broadband - to implement this capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIMO
This allows people to work anywhere and live anywhere else - reduces the need for roadways and automobiles - and expands the opportunities for billions of people while improving the availability of goods and services. .
3) Build heavy lift launchers to put up large thin film solar power satellites. These satellites use inflatable optics to concentrate sunlight to a point, where solar pumped laser arrays are located. These lasers use conjugate optical processes to safely and reliably and efficiently beam down band-gap matched laser energy to the existing solar panel arrays described previously. These solar power satellites increase the energy output of the solar panels 16 times! As they develop, hydrogen displaces hydro-carbon as the major fuel of humanity - providing 20.1 billion tons per year of hydrogen from this source. This represents a 20 fold increase in total energy usage by humanity. With a 7% per year growth rate in energy use, this process will sustain this level of growth for the next 45 years to 2053 - with average global income $190,000 per person per year .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIMO
This will require that 520 satellites each 25 km in diameter are orbited over this period, to illuminate the original 250,000 sq km of solar panels. There is enough space in GEO to possess 8,377 powersats. This allows another 16 fold increase in energy output - allowing another 41 years of 7% per year compounded growth to 2094 AD - with an average global income of $3.1 million per person per year.
Experts indicate that by 2050 we'll have human level computing
http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1
to augment our tele-operated robot system. These teleoperated system will be in place in the 2010s, and the software to displace humans will be largely in place starting in the late 2030s and displace all economic activities by 2050s. In this time period, expect demand for energy to continue to rise as all people on Earth have incomes that rise above $1 million per person per year.
The energy from the additional satellites will not be beamed to stationary collectors, but rather beame at 650 W/cm2 directly to end users - to homes located anywhere, aircraft, ships - to provide any amount of power needed. While oil ouput moderate in the 2010s to be supplanted by hydrogen production as the economy grow through the 2020s - so too, by 2040s hydrogen volume will level out, and new growth will be in the form of direct beaming of power.
The development of propulsive skin spacecraft with large arrays of MEMs base rockets
http://www.me.berkeley.edu/mrcl/rockets.html
powere by laser beams from space - will make personal ballistic travel a safe reliable reality for everyone. Anyone will be able to travel anywhere at a moments notice and take less than 42 minutes to get there. Anyone can attain orbit in less than 12 minutes using this technology.
4) Use heavy lift capacity to send manned expeditions to survey the asteroids and return the richest of these to Earth orbit. Use heavy lift capacity to send up telerobotic and later fully automated- mines, smelting operations,factories, farms and forests - to create raw materials, industrial goods, consumer goods, food and fiber on orbit - using solar energy - and deorbit using solar powered rail guns - and GPS guide re-entryvehicles - with propulsive skin landing rockets - to deliver products directly to consumers anywhere on Earth anytime of the day or night.
Large pressure vessels on orbit are built to house factories, then farms, and then forests on orbit - easing the demand on Earth for farm lands, commercial forests, mines and so forth.
Solar powered rail guns on the Earth's surface cheaply send waste materials back to orbit as needed.
1 mile diameter pressure vessels are folded for re-entry and inflated while descending to Earth. These floating cities operate like hot air balloons. They are powered by laser beams from space, and supplied from orbiting factories, forests and farms. Each houses 150,000 people - and provides labor telerobotically, and personal ballisitic transport. 20,000 such free flying cities - similar to Buckminster Fuller's CLOUD NINE CITIES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_nine_(Tensegrity_sphere) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ldjjj/109033997/
provide refuge to the planet's poorest 3 billion people in the 2020 time frame - but become passe as global development surpasses the living standards offered in these cities.
The next step will be the production of pressure vessels on orbit, from asteroidal materials - to create personally owned SPACE HOMES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
Unlike the space colonies of the 1970s - these are individually owned by families and orbit in a polar orbit - ringlike - similar to Saturn's rings - with the asteroidal feedstock and factories acting like shepherd moons. billions of free flying pressure vessels provide homes for every man woman and child on the planet. This combined with robot labor, and space laser powered MEMs rocket vehicles - provide a means to quickly and efficiently reduce Earth populations..
5) Use heavy lift launch capacity to orbit large SUN ORBITING power satellites within 3 million km of the sun. These are basically the focal point of the other satellites without the concentrator - built on a larger scale - and sent to orbit near the sun - to generate trillions of watts of power at 1/100th the cost of 'conventional' power satellites. A single ring of 188,495 satellites each 100 km in diameter intercept 5 million trillion watts enough to sustain 7% annual growth until 2193 AD.
These sun orbiting satellites beam energy to modified 'conventional' solar panels that receive intense laser energy - for beam upgrades - but most importantly, the number of space homes are spreading out from Earth orbit as propulsive units are added to the Space Homes.
This high powered solar power satellite is a precursor to Bob Forward's vision of using laser powered light sails to drive mult- generation space stations across the interstellar deeps in a few decades.
http://www.robertforward.com/Fast_Forward_Fifty_Years.htm
The same technology can be used to build up interplanetary transport capacity as you build it out.
6) Population growth rate peaked in 1960s and dropped after that. Even though total population is still rising its not rising as fast. That's because as you move from subsistence living to industrial living, population growth rates rise as more folks have access to medical care and food. As income rises above $20,000 per person per year - increasing opportunities lead to lower population growth rates - until you reach zero population growth at $30,000 per person per year. The USA Europe Saudi Arabia and Japan have zpg when you subtract out immigration. As the world income rises above $30,000 per person per year - which will be achieved in 2025 - at 7% growth rate.
There will likely be another spurt in growth as longevity increases at more than 1 year per year - which will also happen in 2025.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_de_Grey
This will slow the dropping of population growth rates - but they will eventually drop below zero - before 2050 - even with longevity increases.
With the advent of human level computing the real problem will be the rise in non-human robot populations. Robots will likely exceed humans as soon as they are capable of independent AI driven action. They will be constructed cheaply and easily well before 2020 - and with human level AI and superhuman level AI - available between 2030-2050 time frame - the demand for these systems will rise rapidly. By 2100 - humans will be around what they are today in total number - but robot population will exceed human population - growing to 20 billions. Humans however will be leaving Earth in growing numbers - with 7 billion humans alive, 1 billion on Earth terrestrial, 2 billion in floating sky cities, 3.5 billion in Earth orbit, and 0.49 billion spread throughout the solar system and 0.01 billion heading toward nearby stars.
This will be the beginning of diaspora. Because even with infinite life spans - we will still die of accidents. And while we will grow increasingly careful, these finite spans will mean with lower birth rates, populations will start to decline albeit slowly.
Removing all aging and disease effects from actuarial data indicates that humans will live to be around 350 years old with perfect medicines. Eliminating automobile and aircraft accidents - the largest remaining cause of death - life extends to 690 years. Eliminating homicide - it extends to 2,800 years. Basically, with perfect medicine and control of aging processes, you die in a car crash or airplane crash. With automated cars and planes that are super-safe, you are murdered by a jealous lover, create an automated security force - and you die in house fires - make houses safer you die in lightning strikes, or falling off a cliff and so forth.
Of course distribution around the mean becomes greater. While the average is 2,800 years say - you will still have some who wil drown in the pool at 9 and some who will live to be 20,000...
Despite the growing number of people however, expanding the range of humans from Earth to the solar system to other solar systems - will reduce population density.
The sun is one star among hundreds of billions of stars in a galaxy that is one among hundreds of billions of galaxies - a universe of 10,000s of billions of billions of stars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBsOeLcUARw
As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human level robots per human being... spreading out at a large fraction of light speed from sol, to nearby stars.
There will always be less than 10 billion people by this measure, and likely always less than 1 trillion robots - if robots don't attain a 'will to power' and a self-reproductive capacity which THEY control. This number of people and robots will spread across thousands, then millions then billions then hundreds of billions of stars over a period of dozens, hundreds and thousands of years.
By this process alone - human density will fall well below 1 planet per human family.
7) time travel - laser light sails that travel at half light speed will be used not only to move space homes, freight and probes to nearby stars, but also a new class of collider - where large masses of iron are caused to collide at half light speed - forming minature black hole dusts. Charging and spinning these dusts create a new form of engineered product.
Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 08:15 GMT On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
> As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over > thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human > level robots per human being... Thousands of years?!? Give me a break.
In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing like a human. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 21 Aug 2008 21:42 GMT > On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing > like a human. Depends on details you haven't thought about. Fact is, humans have been genetically pretty stable for 10,000s of years - and likely will be around for at least 10,000s of years in the future. While genetic engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly produce new life forms, and new intelligent life forms, it is not clear that those life forms will dominate in this tim period. While these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome, it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to accelerate the rate of useful genetic change in humans. everyone's eyes being blue, or everyone's face being symmetrically beautiful, or the absence of disease processes - are useful changes, but do not change what it is to BE human. Radical shifts in body form, conciousness and so forth, are likely to result schisms and failures, and we'll go through cycles - but in the end, humans 10,000 years from now - especially with time dilation and stasis for long duration journeys -which slow genetic shift - will be pretty much as they are today.
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 19:07 GMT On Aug 21, 9:42 pm, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > As humans expand out, their numbers peak and gradually decline over > > > thousands of years - while robot populations rise to hundreds of human [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been genetically pretty stable for 10,000s of years - and likely will > be around for at least 10,000s of years in the future. Ah, the "it's happened before, so it'll happen again" argument for human persistence.
I would describe that as "ignoring the effects of AI, engineering, nanotechnology, science and technology".
> While genetic > engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly > produce new life forms, and new intelligent life forms, it is not > clear that those life forms will dominate in this tim period. If you were talking about the next 100 years, you might have a point. But the idea that our pathetic slug-like bodies and dim-witted brains might last another 10,000 is both incredible and ridiculous.
> While these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome, > it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > journeys -which slow genetic shift - will be pretty much as they are > today. Right - but they'll exist in the virtual museum of natural history. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 25 Aug 2008 16:48 GMT > On Aug 21, 9:42 pm, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ah, the "it's happened before, so it'll happen again" argument for > human persistence. No, I'm talking about human history, not dominant life - whatever that means. I just know what humans like and don't like. Humans don't like taking orders from other humans, they sure as hell won't take orders from non-human intelligences - so as far as human space is concerned, humans will dominate if they exist at all.
> I would describe that as "ignoring the effects of AI, engineering, > nanotechnology, science and technology". On what? I have no doubt that there will be human and super human and non human intelligence well before the middle of the 21st century. I have no doubt that we will have a technological singularity well before then. That doesn't change human history. The history of the dominant life form might be something else than human history. But I'm talking about human history. And in human history,humans will dominate their space - and have a separate human culture - and within that context they'll dominate.
> > While genetic > > engineering, AI and self-replicating machine systems will certainly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you were talking about the next 100 years, you might have > a point. No, the technological singularity is nearer than that - 2040 - we'll do anything that its technically possible to do. A Dirac discontinuity - an infinity of progress in a finite time - unimaginable potential and capabilities - how we enter the discontinuty, determines the trajectory when we pass through.
Humans will still exist 'over the rainbow' - sure there may be wicked witches, and tin men, and all manner of intelligences in Oz over the rainbow, but human culture, human beings and human history - will have humans dominate - if humans are free..
> But the idea that our pathetic slug-like bodies You obviously haven't watched the Olympics - how much do you bench? how often do you exercise? run?
> and > dim-witted brains how many languages do you speak? how many musical instruments do you play? how many computer languages are you fluent in?
> might last another 10,000 is both incredible > and ridiculous. WORMS still exist and have existed for billions of years. Alligators have existed for hundreds of millions of years. What makes you think humans won't exist for similarly long periods of time?
> > While these factors may accelerate the rate of change in the human genome, > > it is unlikely for a variety of very sound statistical reasons, to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Right - but they'll exist in the virtual museum of natural history. Who's museum is that exactly? I am writing about human history - humans don't take orders from each otehr let alone other species. Within the context of human culture humans will dominate and that will be enough for humans. Some other non human intelligence may at some time say they're in charge of things, and may from time to time turn deadly to humans for incomprehensible reasons for humans - just as ants survive on the leavings of humans, and from time to time die in large numbers when the humans are cleaning house. The ants still survive, and I doubt if the ants even know they're not in charge - in fact, if you were to study an ant colony in the corner of the baseboard fo your kitchen, you might well believe they are in charge - as long as no one's paying attention to them.
> __________ > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org Remove lock to > reply. Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:28 GMT > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing > like a human. At the moment the dominant form of life doesn't look like a human - by mass, it looks a lot more like a krill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology) I propose building a ring of krill around the earth. Why? Why _not_? That's what I ask when looking boldly into to-morrow. Suction and Pressure; Zig-Zag-and-Swirl: http://www.pacifier.com/~dkossy/lawsonomy.html
Pat
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 22:38 GMT > > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing > > like a human. > > At the moment the dominant form of life doesn't look like a human - by > mass, it looks a lot more like a krill:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology) Dominance is not measured in grams. Just ask Hitler. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2008 00:51 GMT > Dominance is not measured in grams. Just ask Hitler. > The Nazis are gone... but the Krill are still here. They were here long before humanity evolved, and they will probably be here long after humanity is gone. Particularly after they evolve technology and destroy all the sea creatures that feed on them. See them now, setting forth on their conquest of the oceans - wearing tiny suits of armor and bearing weapons, both made of nearly indestructible Krill Metal.
Pat
Tim Tyler - 23 Aug 2008 07:33 GMT > The Nazis are gone... but the Krill are still here. > They were here long before humanity evolved, and they will probably be > here long after humanity is gone. > Particularly after they evolve technology and destroy all the sea > creatures that feed on them. Not much chance of that. More likely we will wipe out most of the Krill - like this: http://hex.alife.co.uk/ocean_reclamation/ -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:50 GMT > > > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing > > > like a human. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dominance is not measured in grams. Just ask Hitler. Or ask our resident LLPOF warlord(GW Bush), or ask those of his puppet- masters, Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger. Don't forget our Zionist/ Nazi DARPA.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 23 Aug 2008 14:41 GMT > > In a thousand years, the dominant form of life will look nothing > > like a human. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pat We're talking about humans, and the true future of humans not about the dominant life whateve that means.
Now before we talk about that lets talk about the responses here.
Consider please that there are some humans due to poor upbringing that are unhappy with their lives. In fact according to some experts like Alice Miller this is the dominant mode of relating to the world in the present time. It leads to a fascinatino with power, money and death. Gives rise to war and terror and drug use and all manner of addictions as a means to escape. Experts do say that at some point humanity will be saner, but they'll have to deal with the present crisis of spirit.
Now, in a world full of people most of whom are unhappy with their situation, due to poor upbringing, there are certain common belief systems where their unhappiness can be dealt with.
So, sometimes that comes out as hatred of others. Sometimes that comes out as hatred of self. Sometimes even it comes out as hatred of everything - even our species.
Some of those folks who hate everything because they are unhappy- due to poor upbringing - idealize another time and place.
Some idealize the past, some idealize another culture, some idealize some fantasy place, heaven,
or the future.
Some of those who idealize the future say and do and think things that denigrate human beings as they are right now. It makes them happy to do this, and because it makes them happy, it must be true. To think otherwise is to enlarge their pain - which is intolerable.
So, folks like that read a statement about the future of humans, and can't read that statement - because in that statement it violates a fantasy belief about the future that makes them feel better. So, they respond to that feeling being violated.
They cannot think of humanity at any time being redeemed and happy and fulfilled. It diminishes their miserable life. So, they've got to say denigrating things no matter how insane or off-topic.
Krill are the dominant life form - or - other non-human species will be developed that will kick human a.s - humans will exist as a virtual model in a computer based museum for other superior life forms to look upon and marvel at..
regardless of the accuracy of these beliefs, they are not germaine to my analysis of the future of humanity. Further, these are clearly the result of the process of dealing with the pain of being themselves for these people in the present day and age and are not based on any logical process derived from a clear analysis or understanding of my statements. Even though they will deny it to their dying breath - because that's the nature of the sort of pain they're dealing with. Its the only true feeling they know, and despite the pain - they want it - they just want to be more comfortable with it- by adopting crazy ideas or crazy beliefs or crazy behaviors.
Obviously, I am talking about the future of humans. Humans being the way they are, will always be in charge of human culture. I don't see them bowing down to another species for any reason. Lesser species will be controlled or eaten. Humans will attempt to exclude other creatures that compete with humans and do not help them in human space where humans live.
Hell, humans in the present age, compete with each other over the most minor differences. There is no way humans are going to live in a culture where humans do not dominate at least the local landscape with humans in charge, no matter how advanced things get for other sorts of creatures. This may explain why if there are alien species out there, why they're not to interested in dealing with humans at this juncture.
Humans don't like having bosses. They like being their own boss. The idea that tools and so forth will become the boss of humans, or that tools will be PERMITTED to gain a 'will to power' independent of what humans desire - is a non starter for this reason.
None of these facts will change the minds of folks who hate their current lives and want to see humans kissing someone elses a.s - even if its a lowly krill. haha.. but the minds of those sorts of people are warped by illogical and deeply emotional needs stemming from unrelenting pain of a failed childhood and can thus be ignored.
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:45 GMT > On Aug 21, 3:16 am, Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org Remove lock to > reply. Our willie.moo (aka pretend-Atheist and born-again bipolar liar) is nearly always chuck full of it.
We humans have been doing a real bang-up job of creating our own demise.
Most complex forms of terrestrial life far exceeds in population and tonnage to that of mere humans as is. The future w/o fossil energy or affordable alternatives is going to become extremely tough on the survival of our human species.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
OM - 21 Aug 2008 06:00 GMT >Real estate isn't the issue. For instance, if Australia had sufficient >water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million, >instead of the 21 million we currently have. ...Then again, you wouldn't pack every square inch with people. You'd create large protected forest regions to help scrub the atmosphere. If the leaders of the African nations had a clue beyond tribal boundaries, they'd use the resources they have - and they've got some really big untapped oil reserves - to buy a few dozen nuke plants to run massive desalinization plants to pump water throughout the Sahara and convert the desert into a jungle. But that would be the rational thing to do, and you don't see that happen all that often where geopolitics are concerned.
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Alan Erskine - 21 Aug 2008 12:50 GMT >>Real estate isn't the issue. For instance, if Australia had sufficient >>water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > thing to do, and you don't see that happen all that often where > geopolitics are concerned. Don't even need nukes - there's a process called "Flash Evaporation" - all it takes is 120C and you get fresh water from sea water. 70% of Saudi Arabia's water comes from flash evaporation systems - they build a new electricty plant and make water from the waste heat. You could use solar thermal energy for the flash evaporators. Easy peasy.
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:33 GMT > Don't even need nukes - there's a process called "Flash Evaporation" - all > it takes is 120C and you get fresh water from sea water. 70% of Saudi > Arabia's water comes from flash evaporation systems - they build a new > electricty plant and make water from the waste heat. You could use solar > thermal energy for the flash evaporators. Easy peasy. Ever seen this thing?: http://www.enviromission.com.au/ http://www.enviromission.com.au/images/82.hi.jpg
Pat
> OM - 21 Aug 2008 06:01 GMT >I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time soon. ...How *dare* you leave your personal troll a straight line like that, Alan! It's not even Chrisnukkah :-)
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Alan Erskine - 21 Aug 2008 12:50 GMT >>I doubt that I will contribute the any increase in population any time >>soon. > > ...How *dare* you leave your personal troll a straight line like that, > Alan! It's not even Chrisnukkah :-) That idiot can't even spell ni.... never mind.
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 21:58 GMT > Real estate isn't the issue. For instance, if Australia had sufficient > water, we would be able to support a population of more than 200 million, > instead of the 21 million we currently have. > There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life whose life cycle is related to tides will probably go extinct. That might include women, who have a menstrual cycle of the same duration as the lunar cycle. Picture all the women in Australia in a state of permanent premenstrual stress...Kylie Minogue would be as dangerous as a Sydney Funnel Web Spider.
Pat
Tim Tyler - 22 Aug 2008 22:37 GMT > There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life > whose life cycle is related to tides will probably go extinct. > That might include women, who have a menstrual cycle of the same > duration as the lunar cycle. Stuff and nonsense! Vulcanism might be reduced, though.
Anyhow, the moon is pretty big. the ring system of Saturn is estimated to have a mass a million times smaller than that of the moon. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
Pat Flannery - 23 Aug 2008 00:37 GMT > >> There's also the little problem that without the Moon, all forms of life [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Stuff and nonsense! Vulcanism might be reduced, though. > Well, you saw how bitchy T'Pau could get in "Amok Time". You know why? Vulcan has no moon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(Star_Trek_planet) Permanent premenstrual stress. :-D
Pat
Claude Hopper - 21 Aug 2008 02:39 GMT > The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon > there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to > reply. The people are too retarded to be interested in space exploration and settlement. Why do you suppose we haven't been to the moon in 40 years? Christian retards is the answer.
 Signature Claude Hopper ? 3 :) 7/8
Rand Simberg - 21 Aug 2008 03:35 GMT On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:39:04 -0400, in a place far, far away, Claude Hopper <boobooililililil@roadrunner.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>> The planet earth looks destined to fill up - and soon >> there will be a shortage of real estate. Ocean reclamation [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >settlement. Why do you suppose we haven't been to the moon in 40 years? >Christian retards is the answer. That's so stupid, it's hilarious.
OM - 21 Aug 2008 05:56 GMT >Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving >mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on >which to house additional real estate and infrastructure >in near-earth orbit. ...One thing I've never been able to figure out is why .policy always manages to attract the kooks, nutjobs and morons like this.
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Tim Tyler - 21 Aug 2008 08:07 GMT > >Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving > >mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ...One thing I've never been able to figure out is why .policy always > manages to attract the kooks, nutjobs and morons like this. Hi! Do you have some more specific criticism?
Ad hominen attacks don't seem worth addressing. -- __________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:39 GMT > > >Here is a proposed geoengineering project involving > > >mining the moon, and creating an annular earth-disc - on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org Remove lock to > reply. The DARPA/NASA of our mainstream status quo damage-control is every bit as faith-based important as anything on Earth. 99.9% of this Google/NOVA hosted form of Usenet/newsgroups is either mainstream in charge, or having been fully snookered and dumbfounded past the point of no return.
It's exactly what Hitler counted on, and got from his Zionist/Nazi minions.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Willie.Mookie@gmail.com - 25 Aug 2008 17:00 GMT Using small shaped nuclear explosions to produce jets of materil from asteroids as a means to move them, can be used to deflect Earth crossing asteroids into orbits around the moon, or Earth - and then tele-robotic labor is placed on orbit with solar powered equipment to process the asteroidal material into useful products on orbit, and even on Earth.
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