Orion capsule tests lithobraking again
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Pat Flannery - 23 Feb 2010 13:41 GMT Another drop test of the recovery system ended up the same way the first one did, with a smashed test capsule: http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2010/02/unlucky-orion-crashing-space-program-drop -test-fails/ No photos or video available yet.
Pat
David Spain - 23 Feb 2010 15:47 GMT > No photos or video available yet. Camera gear aboard the capsule?
Dave
Pat Flannery - 23 Feb 2010 20:09 GMT >> No photos or video available yet. > > Camera gear aboard the capsule? Don't know; NASA Watch is digging around for info on all of this: http://nasawatch.com/archives/2010/02/another-orion-p.html
Pat
hallerb@aol.com - 23 Feb 2010 21:42 GMT > >> No photos or video available yet. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Pat Testing a system thats already been declared dead:(
Did nasa do any of this during apollo?
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 24 Feb 2010 00:41 GMT >>> Pat Flannery<flan...@daktel.com> ?writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Did nasa do any of this during apollo? Yes.
 Signature Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
OM - 24 Feb 2010 05:24 GMT On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:41:55 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_delet3th1s@greenms.com> astonishingly responded to known troll bbo hallr:
>> Testing a system thats already been declared dead:( >> >> Did nasa do any of this during apollo? > >Yes. ...Greg, I'm actually drawing a blank here on this one. I *know* there were some testing on Apollo components that were declared cancelled and/or obsolete, but I can't goddamn remember any specific ones. Are we referring primarily to Block I hardware in this case?
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 24 Feb 2010 13:50 GMT > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:41:55 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" > <mooregr_delet3th1s@greenms.com> astonishingly responded to known [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and/or obsolete, but I can't goddamn remember any specific ones. Are > we referring primarily to Block I hardware in this case? Correct. I'd argue there were enough difference between Block I and Block II to matter here.
> OM
 Signature Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
Pat Flannery - 24 Feb 2010 14:34 GMT > Correct. I'd argue there were enough difference between Block I and Block > II to matter here. Some chronological background here: http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/craft/csmchute.htm They had a lot of trouble with the parachute tests.
Pat
OM - 24 Feb 2010 15:57 GMT On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:51:04 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_delet3th1s@greenms.com> wrote:
>>>> Testing a system thats already been declared dead:( >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Correct. I'd argue there were enough difference between Block I and Block >II to matter here. ...Yeah, and IIRC there were quire a few Block I components that continued to be tested after Block I was canned for suitability in either Block II and/or the possibility of using Block I leftover capsules for any Apollo Applications Projects that required an unmanned capsule. Might be a question to pose over on Secret Projects with regards to AAP possibly using Block I leftovers.
Jorge? Any known concise lists of components that carried over directly from Block I to Block II with little or no modification?
OM
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Me - 24 Feb 2010 21:15 GMT > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:51:04 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > OM Most of the components were carried over. Block II added more components such as docking hardware,tunnel and rendezvous equipment . Also modifications necessary for compatibility with the LM, structural changes to reduce weight or improve CSM center of gravity, and critical systems changes.
OM - 25 Feb 2010 04:12 GMT >Most of the components were carried over. ...Excuse me, but I believe I asked someone who has credibility, not a lying catamitic troll like you. Begone.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 25 Feb 2010 15:02 GMT > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:15:21 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ...Excuse me, but I believe I asked someone who has credibility, not a > lying catamitic troll like you. Begone. Your loss. And no one has anything to gain from you.
OM - 26 Feb 2010 04:06 GMT >Your loss. And no one has anything to gain from you. ...As if anyone has anything to gain from your snotty attitude, terse and incorrect babbling attempts at "answering", and your pathetic inability to trim your quotes.
Again, just f.ck off and die, Charlie. Either one would suffice, although the latter would be preferable.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 26 Feb 2010 04:24 GMT > ...As if anyone has anything to gain from your snotty attitude, terse > and incorrect babbling attempts at "answering", and your pathetic > inability to trim your quotes. > > Again, just f.ck off and die, Charlie. Either one would suffice, > although the latter would be preferable. Actually, the world would be better off if you did.
Also, I have yet to see one positive contribution by you to any forum. Most of your posts are just comments andpathetic attempts at school yard humor and are void of any real substance.
Additionally, better to have a "snotty attitude" than to be a plain a.shole.
OM - 26 Feb 2010 05:06 GMT >Actually, the world would be better off if you did. ...You'll go first, you snotty little bastard. People like you always do. And painfully choking on your own bile and ego.
>Also, I have yet to see one positive contribution by you to any >forum. ...As has been pointed out by others, you're blind. I've clearly contributed more than you have in the decade-plus this group has been in existence, and have done so without acting like an egotistical choad with a ten-foot corncob up my a.s like you've always behaved.
>Most of your posts are just comments andpathetic attempts at >school yard humor and are void of any real substance. ...So you're one of those humorless choads who think levity and humor have no place in society. Well, more reason for you to do us all a favor and rid yourself from corporeal existence, then.
>Additionally, better to have a "snotty attitude" than to be a plain >a.shole. ...Say that after someone beats the living sh.t out of you for snotting off like you do, Charlie. It's inarguable that you have such a whipping coming. You've clearly earned several of such.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Fred J. McCall - 26 Feb 2010 07:02 GMT :>Actually, the world would be better off if you did. : :...You'll go first, you snotty little bastard. f.ck, I'd buy you BOTH tickets...
 Signature "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
OM - 26 Feb 2010 05:09 GMT >Also, I have yet to see one positive contribution by you to any >forum. ...Oh, and in case you thought we'd forgotten, you *still* have yet to explain and/or verify your claims that you "go to work, I do more in the space program than you ever will in your lifetime". This failure to back up your claims with verifiable source cites just puts you in the same troll category as ~CT.
So either put up or shut up. Coward.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 26 Feb 2010 10:37 GMT > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:24:56 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to back up your claims with verifiable source cites just puts you in > the same troll category as ~CT. You are a fool if you think I am going to put my name on here, People that matter know who I am.
Fred J. McCall - 26 Feb 2010 20:17 GMT :You are a fool if you think I am going to put my name on here, People :that matter know who I am. And you're a fool if you think anyone on a 'sci' newsgroup is going to give any weight at all to postings from just another nymskull.
 Signature You are What you do When it counts.
OM - 26 Feb 2010 21:27 GMT >You are a fool if you think I am going to put my name on here, ...Because you'll expose yourself as a lying troll, just like ~CT.
>People that matter know who I am. ...It's actually *you* that doesn't matter.
Coward.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Fred J. McCall - 26 Feb 2010 21:32 GMT :>You are a fool if you think I am going to put my name on here, : [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : : OM Look who's talking....
 Signature "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
Me - 27 Feb 2010 19:06 GMT > On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:37:15 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ...It's actually *you* that doesn't matter. Ok a.shole
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=4376.msg68581#msg68581
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=606.msg19586#msg19586
OM - 28 Feb 2010 06:52 GMT >Ok a.shole ...Uh-huh. Nice try, "Jim". Guess you forgot that I'm using TOR now, and have three hoze accounts on NSF. Either way, even if your claims were true, janitorial services don't count.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 28 Feb 2010 12:33 GMT > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:06:45 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and have three hoze accounts on NSF. Either way, even if your claims > were true, janitorial services don't count. http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/imageviewer.cfm?mediaid=4082&mr=m&w=742&h=506&f n=99pp0204&sn=KSC-99PP-0204 http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/imageviewer.cfm?mediaid=4068&mr=m&w=514&h=743&f n=99pd0205&sn=KSC-99PD-0205 http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/imageviewer.cfm?mediaid=1027&mr=m&w=717&h=498&f n=97pc1724&sn=KSC-97PC-1724 http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/pdf/66779main_Jan16color.pdf http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/pdf/137888main_nov11color.pdf http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/pdf/411178main_dec11color.pdf
Me - 28 Feb 2010 12:39 GMT > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:06:45 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and have three hoze accounts on NSF. Either way, even if your claims > were true, janitorial services don't count. What you don't mean " Nice try"? I know that you have accounts on NSF, that's why I posted the links.
As for " janitorial services", that is just more sour grapes and loser's remorse.
OM - 28 Feb 2010 20:44 GMT >What you don't mean " Nice try"? I know that you have accounts on >NSF, that's why I posted the links. ...Doubtful. Anyway, I'll have all the information I need on you shortly. Thanks for finally having the guts to admit who you really are. "Jim". It proves you *lied* when you said you had "nothing to do" with my being banned from NSF. A liar *and* a coward.
And one we don't need working for NASA, even if it's as a janitor.
>As for " janitorial services", that is just more sour grapes and >loser's remorse. ...No, one look at those photos, and if that's really you, I see "janitor" as well as "catamite".
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 01 Mar 2010 02:44 GMT > On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:39:49 -0800 (PST), Me
> ...Doubtful. Anyway, I'll have all the information I need on you > shortly. Thanks for finally having the guts to admit who you really > are. "Jim". It proves you *lied* when you said you had "nothing to do" > with my being banned from NSF. A liar *and* a coward. I have nothing to do with your banning. I am not an admin nor do I run the site.
Fred J. McCall - 01 Mar 2010 02:50 GMT :> ...Doubtful. Anyway, I'll have all the information I need on you :> shortly. Thanks for finally having the guts to admit who you really [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :I have nothing to do with your banning. I am not an admin nor do I :run the site. From watching his behaviour here, I think it's obvious why OM would get banned from anyplace...
 Signature You are What you do When it counts.
OM - 02 Mar 2010 01:22 GMT On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:44:18 -0800 (PST), A Catamitic Troll named "Jim" <charliexmurphy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have nothing to do with your banning. ...You are a liar.
>I am not an admin nor do I run the site. ...Quit trying to obfusciate the facts. You don't need to be either to have pulled the sh.t you did. You were one of the ringleaders behind my being banned for doing *nothing* wrong whatsoever. I've had this confirmed by *three* people, two of which are moderators, and all three tried to convince the choad who runs NSF that the accusations being made were by people who'd trolled the sci.space groups and/or were just making total a.ses of themselves.
And all because you came here, tried to act like you're some sort of expert - which you're f.cking not - and I and several other regulars stuck you in Killfile Hell where bastards like you belong. *You* brought it on yourself, "Jim". I refuse to let you force your lies on everyone else.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 02 Mar 2010 04:52 GMT > On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:44:18 -0800 (PST), A Catamitic Troll named > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > being made were by people who'd trolled the sci.space groups and/or > were just making total a.ses of themselves. I would say that these people were wrong on many counts.
A. You have been displaying the type behavior that warrants banning including preemptive. A leopard can't change his spots. B, Confirming that you are an a.shole is not being a ringleader. C. You have been doing wrong all along. D. "people who'd trolled the sci.space groups and/or were just making total a.ses of themselves." is not applicable to me.
> And all because you came here, tried to act like you're some sort of > expert - which you're f.cking not - and I and several other regulars > stuck you in Killfile Hell where bastards like you belong. *You* > brought it on yourself, "Jim". I refuse to let you force your lies on > everyone else. Who and where are these "regulars"? What lies? The fact that you are an a.shole is not a lie.
OM - 03 Mar 2010 00:07 GMT >I would say that these people were wrong on many counts. ...No, they're 100% correct. And rest assured you're about to get what's coming to you,
>A. You have been displaying the type behavior that warrants banning >including preemptive. A leopard can't change his spots.\ ...The only "type behavior" I've demonstrated is refusing to back down to bastard catamite trolls like you. Even that bozo who runs NSF admitted that I was clearly not a troll, and that the only reason he was listening to the complaints was that you and Dwayne had convinced someone else on NSF to threaten to pull all their "console link support" during missions if I weren't totally banned from NSF, including access to the news pages. That sort of action is pure and inexcusable extortion, and one that's both immoral and illegal.
>B, Confirming that you are an a.shole is not being a ringleader. ...Hey, guess what, ignatz? I've prided myself on being an a.shole since Day One. What I'm *NOT* is what you -are-, and that's a troll.
>C. You have been doing wrong all along. ...Bullshit. The only "wrong" is that I placed you in killfile hell the second you started acting like a total choad. Which was about a week after you first started posting around here.
>D. "people who'd trolled the sci.space groups and/or were just making >total a.ses of themselves." is not applicable to me. ...Bullshit again. It's been applicable to you since you first got here. And your actions towards me on NSF and on here are proof positive that you're nothing but a f.cking troll.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 01 Mar 2010 02:59 GMT > ...No, one look at those photos, and if that's really you, I see > "janitor" If that were true, it still would be more of a contribution than anything you have done.
OM - 02 Mar 2010 01:17 GMT >> ...No, one look at those photos, and if that's really you, I see >> "janitor" > >If that were true, it still would be more of a contribution than >anything you have done. ...I made more of a contribution compiling the FAQ than you did sweeping the floors, that's for sure.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 02 Mar 2010 04:41 GMT > On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:59:10 -0800 (PST), Me > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ...I made more of a contribution compiling the FAQ than you did > sweeping the floors, that's for sure. What the hell is "The" FAQ?
OM - 03 Mar 2010 00:02 GMT >What the hell is "The" FAQ? ...That was already explained to you once, and you made a bullshit reply dismissing the work. Are you so retarded that you can't remember things from one day to the next?
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Rick Jones - 03 Mar 2010 00:06 GMT > What the hell is "The" FAQ? Historically, in the context of a Usenet/netnews newsgroup, it would be a frequently asked questions file archived on rtfm.mit.edu. The top of the sci.space heirarchy there can be found via the URL:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/sci/space/
rick jones
 Signature the road to hell is paved with business decisions... these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
OM - 03 Mar 2010 00:27 GMT >> What the hell is "The" FAQ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/sci/space/ ...Agreed. However, in this case, he's feigning ignorance of the Columbia Loss FAQ, which was pointed out to him a few weeks ago, which he summarily dismissed with his usual trolling lack of flair.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 03 Mar 2010 03:14 GMT > ...Agreed. However, in this case, he's feigning ignorance of the > Columbia Loss FAQ, which was pointed out to him a few weeks ago, which > he summarily dismissed with his usual trolling lack of flair. ignorance? No, it was just dismissal of an insignificant post. And why is that such an accomplishment? It is nothing more than cutting and pasting other people's work. Now a real accomplish wrt STS-107 would be to have trained some of the crew.
OM - 03 Mar 2010 06:21 GMT >ignorance? No, it was just dismissal of an insignificant post. And >why is that such an accomplishment? It is nothing more than cutting >and pasting other people's work. ...You are possibly the most pathetic, despicable son of a bitch I have every come across on usenet in all my 25+ years online. You may think you're insulting me, but you've also belittled the tireless effort of a large group of people here who did their damndest to keep bastard trolls like you from blackening the day far worse with their trollings. This just proves beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever that you're nothing but a worthless sack of sh.t who has no business being allowed to live, much less put down what was an honest effort to prevent the nutjobs like yourself from causing all the crap they did when we lost Challenger.
If I ever meet you face-to-face, "Jim", I vow right here and now I will make you eat your trollings. You've finally gone too far. I *will* deal with you once and for all, you malignant catamite.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 03 Mar 2010 17:31 GMT >> ...Agreed. However, in this case, he's feigning ignorance of the >> Columbia Loss FAQ, which was pointed out to him a few weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now a real accomplish wrt STS-107 would be to have trained some of the > crew. In OM's defense here ME, you're wrong on this. It was quite the accomplishment at the time and was used by several major news organizations to fact-check their stories.
 Signature Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
OM - 03 Mar 2010 21:02 GMT On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:31:38 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_delet3th1s@greenms.com> wrote:
>>> ...Agreed. However, in this case, he's feigning ignorance of the >>> Columbia Loss FAQ, which was pointed out to him a few weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >accomplishment at the time and was used by several major news organizations >to fact-check their stories. ...Especially the Orlando Sentinel, who were more guilty of just "C&P" as "Jim" so callously dismisses. Then again, considering just how dismissal he was, I honestly don't think he's even read it, and is just being such a total troll because he knows it pushes my buttons to the limit.
As it obviously did last night.
...To be honest, out of all the trolls we've had, there has never been one to push me over the limit as far as "Jim" did last night. It's not that he snottily, limp-wristedly dismissed the CLFAQ because *I* was the compiler and architect, but that he showed no respect for all those on the sci.space groups who also stood up and contributed to the effort in a time of great sadness for everyone here that mattered. I can take his snarky pathetic insults to me, but did the rest of these people deserve his spooging? See if you can recognize these names listed here:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/clfaq/s1.htm#Contributors
...Now, granted, I'll be the first to admit that the CLFAQ is arguably obsolete, and some sections need tweaking even today. But at the same time, the CAIB report(s) are out now, and for those seeking the really detailed official answers have always been directed to seek out those publications since they were made available for public consumption. But at the time it was launched, it was a document that was needed, as it was an inarguably useful tool in dealing with the trolls, crackpots, idiots, racists, retards and morons of the type that showed up when Challenger was lost, who wanted to use the loss of Columbia to foist their own sick agendas. All you had to do whenever they popped up was to reference the CLFAQ section most apropos - many times including Section XII - and then watch as those threads quickly died.
...But regardless of what "Jim" would like to think, this wasn't just someone he hates just "copying and pasting other's work" the CLFAQ couldn't have been accomplished without a concentrated and coordinated effort, especially in those first two weeks following the Columbia accident. This accomplishment involved direct communications with those who contributed, with numerous back-and-forth refinements between each FAQ update - which in the first two days was practically an hourly event - and the closest thing to just "C&P" occurred when either a news article was quoted, or when someone at NASA forwarded the first rough version of the Timeline of Events before it was released to the press. Everything else was based on the research of the people listed in the Contributors section, and without their hard work the CLFAQ probably wouldn't have happened.
...That, friends and colleagues, is what pushed me past the breaking point last night. Not that he tried to claim that my work was worthless, but that the entire effort and those who contributed to it all were worthless. The CLFAQ was the entire sci.space hierarchy's finest hour. It proved that the users of a computer-based communications forum, where most if not all of those involved never see each other face-to-face, could pull together in a time of crisis and confusion, compile and publish an informational document designed to keep all involved and/or interested as completely and accurately informed about the topic and related topics at hand, and continue to update and expand that document as many times as necessary for the duration of the respective crisis, and then archive the document for any and all future reference needs.
Bottom Line: Usenet was established as a network with sufficient connectivity to allow for continued rapid information exchange that could survive a full-scale nuclear attack. The CLFAQ proved that one of the reasons usenet was created was valid and attainable, and those who contributed to it are to be commended for their efforts. "Jim" can troll all over me all he wants, but *not* the CLFAQ or those who provided the information and made it work. Those people deserve all the praise and respect they can get, regardless of what pathetic little catamite trols like "Jim", "Me" or "Charlie X. Murphy" wants to call himself.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 03 Mar 2010 23:04 GMT > ...Especially the Orlando Sentinel, who were more guilty of just "C&P" > as "Jim" so callously dismisses. Then again, considering just how [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > can take his snarky pathetic insults to me, but did the rest of these > people deserve his spooging? Did you train the crew? Were you in contact with friends in the landing convoy at the SLF after the scheduled landing time? Did you have to identify pieces of hardware? Forgive me if I poo poo stringing some words as a big accomplishment.
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 03 Mar 2010 23:28 GMT > Did you train the crew? Were you in contact with friends in the > landing convoy at the SLF after the scheduled landing time? Did you > have to identify pieces of hardware? Forgive me if I poo poo > stringing some words as a big accomplishment. No, he shouldn't forgive you and neither will I nor will many others. I'm sorry Charlie, but your position doesn't give you right to so callously dismiss the efforts and concerns of others.
Hell, by taking your approach one could ask, "Did you give birth to the crew? Did you raise them from infancy? Did you bury your son or daughter? Forgive me if I poo poo you simply doing the job you were hired to do."
Now, personally even if I were a family member or parent, I wouldn't take that attitude with you since it would demean me. But OM is right about one thing, your condescension is remarkable.
Oh and by the way, I'm pretty damn sure that there were people who trained the crew, who had friends on the flight or at the SLF or who helped identify pieces of hardware and more, who actually helped contribute to the FAQ. So by dismissing the efforts of OM and a host of others, you're dismissing the efforts of those you claim to be collegues.
 Signature Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
Me - 01 Mar 2010 13:07 GMT > ...No, one look at those photos, and if that's really you, I see > "janitor" as well as "catamite". It must be from experience that you know what a catamite looks like. You also have an affinity for the word, must be some latent feeling that are coming to the surface.
OM - 02 Mar 2010 01:22 GMT >It must be from experience that you know what a catamite looks like. ...You provided plenty of pictures of an example, that's for sure.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Fred J. McCall - 26 Feb 2010 07:01 GMT :Again, just f.ck off and die, Charlie. Please take your own advice. I honestly don't think you're actually even sane anymore, watching your output here.
 Signature "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
Dr.Smith - 11 Mar 2010 12:00 GMT Craig Bingman - 26 Feb 2010 20:09 GMT >Another drop test of the recovery system ended up the same way the first >one did, with a smashed test capsule: >http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2010/02/unlucky-orion-crashing-space-program-drop -test-fails/ >No photos or video available yet. Despiriting.... I was really hoping that NASA would at least be able to keep Orion going, or something like it.
 Signature -- cbingman@panix.com
OM - 26 Feb 2010 21:38 GMT >Despiriting.... I was really hoping that NASA would at least be able to keep >Orion going, or something like it. ...The hints are - at least what I'm hearing out of JSC - is that they hope to at least keep the Orion capsule alive so that it can be used on these commercial boosters that the Obama misadministration believes will magically appear from the defense contractors.
Anyone heard if Elon Musk has said yea or nay as to whether Falcon 9 will be retrofitted to support Orion as well as Dragon?
OM
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Jorge R. Frank - 27 Feb 2010 16:33 GMT >> Despiriting.... I was really hoping that NASA would at least be able to keep >> Orion going, or something like it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on these commercial boosters that the Obama misadministration believes > will magically appear from the defense contractors. There's nothing "magical" about the Delta IV and Atlas V. They've both been flying for years.
OM - 28 Feb 2010 01:20 GMT >> ...The hints are - at least what I'm hearing out of JSC - is that they >> hope to at least keep the Orion capsule alive so that it can be used [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >There's nothing "magical" about the Delta IV and Atlas V. They've both >been flying for years. ...Considering that they still need to be man-rated, and no apparent progress towards that end has been made - hell, Atlas hasn't been man-rated since 1963! - I'm still claiming that their conversion to such status will have to be "magic". Unless you know something we don't, Jorge.
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 28 Feb 2010 01:50 GMT > ...Considering that they still need to be man-rated, and no apparent > progress towards that end has been made - hell, Atlas hasn't been > man-rated since 1963! - I'm still claiming that their conversion to > such status will have to be "magic". Unless you know something we > don't, Jorge. The shuttle hasn't been manrated either. Your claim is wrong, ULA was funded for a study on+ EDS
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=30155
OM - 28 Feb 2010 06:39 GMT >The shuttle hasn't been manrated either. ...it's a shame your mother was.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Fred J. McCall - 28 Feb 2010 07:05 GMT :>The shuttle hasn't been manrated either. : :...it's a shame your mother was. And it's a shame that yours apparently wasn't.
Jesus, OM, stop being such an incredible fuckwit, already.
 Signature "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
Pat Flannery - 28 Feb 2010 10:06 GMT > :>The shuttle hasn't been manrated either. > : [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jesus, OM, stop being such an incredible fuckwit, already. As the triangular stand-off in the desert between OM, Me, and Fred McCall started...and the music swelled...the audience realized that this was going to be one of the most memorable scenes of "The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly." :-D
Pat
Jorge R. Frank - 28 Feb 2010 05:40 GMT >>> ...The hints are - at least what I'm hearing out of JSC - is that they >>> hope to at least keep the Orion capsule alive so that it can be used [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such status will have to be "magic". Unless you know something we > don't, Jorge. There was considerable work done to determine what would be required to man-rate the EELVs for the OSP program that preceded the VSE. OSP would not have been as heavy as Orion so not all the work was applicable, but much of it was. Things like vehicle health monitoring and avionics fault-tolerance are fairly generic. Ascent trajectory shaping for abort survivability is a bit vehicle-specific but is solvable.
Orion+EELV could probably be ready to fly years before Orion+Ares could have.
Pat Flannery - 28 Feb 2010 06:21 GMT > There was considerable work done to determine what would be required to > man-rate the EELVs for the OSP program that preceded the VSE. OSP would > not have been as heavy as Orion so not all the work was applicable, but > much of it was. Given past experience with upwards weight creep on spaceplane designs (look at the canceled French Hermes for instance) OSP would have probably ended up weighing around the same as Orion, if not more. Orion's big mistake was deciding to duplicate the Apollo CM design from a aerodynamic point of view, which leads to a very wide, very heavy, heatshield for the spacecraft's internal volume. A "gumdrop" design similar to the Soyuz descent module would have yielded equal internal volume at far lower weight by using a smaller diameter heatshield, and might have put the design back into the performance capabilities of the original design for the Ares-1 booster concept, greatly simplifying the whole program.
Pat
Me - 28 Feb 2010 12:35 GMT > Given past experience with upwards weight creep on spaceplane designs > (look at the canceled French Hermes for instance) OSP would have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > performance capabilities of the original design for the Ares-1 booster > concept, greatly simplifying the whole program. Towards the end of OSP, the two contender designs morphed into capsules with one being Apollo shaped and the other being Soyuz shaped
Jeff Findley - 01 Mar 2010 18:31 GMT >> There was considerable work done to determine what would be required to >> man-rate the EELVs for the OSP program that preceded the VSE. OSP would [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > capabilities of the original design for the Ares-1 booster concept, > greatly simplifying the whole program. I don't think that's a good design trade, even if it would have resulted in a lighter spacecraft (I doubt that assertion). The gumdrop shape would also have resulted in much higher G's for astronauts returning from the moon. This is because Apollo's shape gives more hypersonic lift than the Soyuz shape.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
Pat Flannery - 02 Mar 2010 06:55 GMT Finally, some data on the failed test: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1381
Pat
OM - 28 Feb 2010 06:43 GMT >OSP would not have been as heavy as Orion so not all the work was applicable, but >much of it was. ...What was the percentage difference? I used to know this but I can't recall it off the top of my head, dammit.
>Orion+EELV could probably be ready to fly years before Orion+Ares could >have. ...Considering the current situation, it may be the only way we're going to get back into the manned space game, thanks to the Obama misadministration. Where space is concerned, he's becoming the biggest stumbling block since that pathetic peanut farmer was 36 years ago.
OM
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Jeff Findley - 01 Mar 2010 18:29 GMT >>OSP would not have been as heavy as Orion so not all the work was >>applicable, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > misadministration. Where space is concerned, he's becoming the biggest > stumbling block since that pathetic peanut farmer was 36 years ago. Ares I and Ares V were former NASA Administrator Mike Griffin's ideas. Don't blame Obama for Griffin's ram-rodding Ares I down NASA's throat.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
OM - 02 Mar 2010 01:42 GMT >Don't blame Obama for Griffin's ram-rodding Ares I down NASA's throat. ...I blame the Obama misadministration for not taking the proper steps to keep a manned US lift capability with the minimum possible gap between the end of the Shuttle and the start of Orion. His actions were the worst case scenario next to totally shutting down NASA, and I *will* blame him for it. Had he made some sort of provision, such as issuing an Executive Order calling for NASA to divert all Ares funds directly to a crash program to man-rate either the Delta Heavy or the Atlas V, and maintained funding at current levels, then he'd have gotten my support as quickly as increasing funding on Orion/Ares I to shorten the gap between Shuttle and Orion. It was clear from even before he started his campaign that he had AbZero support for space exploration in any way, shape or form, and his killing Ares and the effective killing of Orion is just his first step in redirecting the funds towards some bullshit welfare program where the money will only go in the pockets of some federal bureaucrat instead of actually helping people in need.
...And before some of you think I'm talking out of my a.s - especially trolls like "Jim" - let me remind you of something to put this all in proper perspective: All of you regulars know what I've been through the past two years with the loss of my right leg and the excessive struggle it took to get state funding for a fake leg when I couldn't afford one on my own. I've learned that much of that funding came from federal assistance handed down to the states, the type of funding that the misguided like Mondale, Proxmire and Obama would redirect - and both have and will - from programs like NASA and the various scientific institutions. Even with that knowledge, if given the choice between money for my fake leg, or guaranteeing a US presence, if not superiority, in the arena of space exploration, then I would gladly give up that leg and get around in a cheap $75 wheelchair from Wal-Mart for the rest of my life. That, kids, is how strongly I feel about the necessity of continued full support of NASA and the program as a whole.
And yes, even if maintaining that program kept "Jim" employed in whatever janitor's job he claims he has.
OM
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Jeff Findley - 02 Mar 2010 15:32 GMT >>Don't blame Obama for Griffin's ram-rodding Ares I down NASA's throat. > > ...I blame the Obama misadministration for not taking the proper steps > to keep a manned US lift capability with the minimum possible gap > between the end of the Shuttle and the start of Orion. I don't agree. The previous Administration screwed the pooch on this one. Ares I was Griffin's brainchild. Ares V was also his brainchild. I believe it was a deliberate maneuver on his part to plan on scrapping all shuttle launch capability as quickly as possible so there would be "no return" possible. It was a stupid strategy that has backfired due to Ares I's slipping schedule, constant redesigns, and rising cost. Ares I's problems forced several Orion redesigns which also forced Altair and Ares V redesigns.
All of the current problems can be traced back to the decision for NASA to build yet another launch vehicle in the same lift class as Atlas and Delta. Ares I killed the return to the moon.
> His actions > were the worst case scenario next to totally shutting down NASA, and I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > gotten my support as quickly as increasing funding on Orion/Ares I to > shorten the gap between Shuttle and Orion. Griffin should have done this, but instead he chose to go the Ares I route. Because of Ares I's problems, Orion has serious problems too. Putting Orion on Atlas or Delta at this point would mean yet *another* redesign for Orion. I'm not convinced NASA could do this redesign quickly. I'm also assuming that this "quick and dirty" Orion redesign would be for LEO only, which means more work during the redesign. Switching the destination and launch vehicle at this point would be close to starting over.
> It was clear from even > before he started his campaign that he had AbZero support for space [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > go in the pockets of some federal bureaucrat instead of actually > helping people in need. Most presidents don't have much support for manned space exploration. A historical look at funding levels for space after the 1960's pretty much confirms that.
> ...And before some of you think I'm talking out of my a.s - especially > trolls like "Jim" - let me remind you of something to put this all in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And yes, even if maintaining that program kept "Jim" employed in > whatever janitor's job he claims he has. I've got no sympathy for NASA at this point. They screwed the pooch big time, mostly due to Griffin's pig headedness, but they still screwed the pooch. Now it's time for them to stop trying to build yet another NASA designed launch vehicle boondoggle and let commercial providers step up and sell them launches as needed.
I've been a big supporter of commercial launch vehicles for manned spaceflight. NASA was on the right path with OSP on EELV's. Too bad that approach was abandoned and replaced by Orion on Ares I.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
OM - 02 Mar 2010 22:53 GMT >Now it's time for them to stop trying to build yet another NASA >designed launch vehicle boondoggle and let commercial providers step up and >sell them launches as needed. ...Then those commercial providers need to get off their butts and *do* so. Right now, you don't see them beating on the doors of JSC Bld. 1 with man-rated booster plans and proposals, do you?
OM
 Signature ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 02 Mar 2010 23:28 GMT > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:32:21 -0500, "Jeff Findley" > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > *do* so. Right now, you don't see them beating on the doors of JSC > Bld. 1 with man-rated booster plans and proposals, do you? Many times over and over
http://www.ulalaunch.com/site/pages/Education_PublishedPapers.shtml under human rating.
The issue is that there is no overarching requirements document. http://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?t=NPR&c=8705&s=2B
NPR 8705.2B is the NASA main document, but it is not cut and dry.
Also launch vehicle providers like ULA can't do it on their own, they need a spacecraft
OM - 03 Mar 2010 00:14 GMT >Many times over and over ...And you still don't get it. You're a troll. Nobody's going to listen to anything you've got to say regarding *real* discussions.
Now, be a good little troll and go back to your janitor job. While you still have it...
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Me - 03 Mar 2010 03:15 GMT > >Many times over and over > > ...And you still don't get it. You're a troll. Nobody's going to > listen to anything you've got to say regarding *real* discussions. You don't speak for the sci.space.history group and its posters.
Dale Carlson - 03 Mar 2010 06:01 GMT >> >Many times over and over >> >> ...And you still don't get it. You're a troll. Nobody's going to >> listen to anything you've got to say regarding *real* discussions. > >You don't speak for the sci.space.history group and its posters. Please, let it go. Someone who suggests "lynching" this president just doesn't get it on so many levels, and is not worth the effort.
Dale
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 03 Mar 2010 17:29 GMT >> Many times over and over > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Now, be a good little troll and go back to your janitor job. While you > still have it... OM, I've mentioned before that I don't maintain a kill file. Generally it seems pointless.
But I'll tell you, I'm at about the point where you'll be the first person in it.
I'm sorry, but as another poster also pointed out, it gets REAL tiring to see all your pointless responses to Charliexmurphy.
You don't like him. We get it. But you know what. I and apparently most others really don't give a f.ck if you don't like him.
I for one actually feel he's providing far more usefullness to this group than you are.
He is NOT the problem. You are.
Seriously. Grow up.
> OM
 Signature Greg Moore Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
Dre - 03 Mar 2010 22:16 GMT >>> Many times over and over >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> OM I agree 100%
Cheers Dre
Jeff Findley - 03 Mar 2010 16:11 GMT >>Now it's time for them to stop trying to build yet another NASA >>designed launch vehicle boondoggle and let commercial providers step up [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > *do* so. Right now, you don't see them beating on the doors of JSC > Bld. 1 with man-rated booster plans and proposals, do you? As part of OSP, NASA and the two EELV providers looked into what it would take to "man rate" the EELV's. It wasn't all that much, certainly less than the billions spent on Ares I. Under Griffin they knew to keep their big yaps shut or they wouldn't get a piece of the ESAS pie. Again, this is Griffin's doing.
Also, Falcon 9 is making slow, but steady, progress towards its first flight.
So, that's two potential existing US launch vehicles, plus one more US launch vehicle which is under development. We simply don't need yet another launch vehicle in the same class, which is what Ares I always was.
What is happening now is politics. Unfortunately, NASA is a government agency and often times the best political solution (especially with Griffin as administrator) turns out to be the absolute worst technical solution. The current proposed solution to the problem by the Obama Administration is also filled with politics. Perhaps the proposal is genuine, but then again, it could be a deliberate "worst case scenario" for the current POR to force them to find some sane political compromise.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
OM - 03 Mar 2010 20:25 GMT >As part of OSP, NASA and the two EELV providers looked into what it would >take to "man rate" the EELV's. It wasn't all that much, certainly less than >the billions spent on Ares I. Under Griffin they knew to keep their big >yaps shut or they wouldn't get a piece of the ESAS pie. Again, this is >Griffin's doing. ...That old friend of mine who's a beancounter at NASA? I've bounced this off of him, and he now wants to talk to me about it. I'm expecting a call later tonight, but from the way he phrased "uh, I think we need to talk about this", I may be getting some interesting facts that might just back up your claim, Jeff. After all, if anyone would know about such tactics, it would be a beancounter, no?
>Also, Falcon 9 is making slow, but steady, progress towards its first >flight. ...But has anyone heard anything from Elon about whether he's making the Falcon 9 anywhere near man-rated? I know they're working on contingencies for the Falcon 1, as the - for lack of better term - Block 2 or Block 3 Dragon is supposed to carry a crew. But what about Falcon 9?
OM
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Jochem Huhmann - 03 Mar 2010 21:45 GMT >>Also, Falcon 9 is making slow, but steady, progress towards its first >>flight. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Block 2 or Block 3 Dragon is supposed to carry a crew. But what about > Falcon 9? Dragon is supposed to be launched with Falcon 9 only, so if they want to have a crewed version of Dragon Falcon 9 will have to be man-rated, no?
And the following document says about the Falcon 9: "Meets NASA crew-rated safety margins and failure tolerances"
https://spacex.com/20090617_Elon_Musk_Augustine_Commission.pdf
Jochem
 Signature "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
OM - 03 Mar 2010 22:06 GMT >Dragon is supposed to be launched with Falcon 9 only, so if they want to >have a crewed version of Dragon Falcon 9 will have to be man-rated, no? ...My understanding was that the Dragon version to be launched with the 9 was not the crewed version, just the cargo one. Hence the lack of immediate need for man-rating.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Jochem Huhmann - 04 Mar 2010 09:23 GMT >>Dragon is supposed to be launched with Falcon 9 only, so if they want to >>have a crewed version of Dragon Falcon 9 will have to be man-rated, no? > > ...My understanding was that the Dragon version to be launched with > the 9 was not the crewed version, just the cargo one. Hence the lack > of immediate need for man-rating. The crewed Dragon is basically the same as the cargo version and also meant to be launched on the Falcon 9.
Jochem
 Signature "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
hallerb@aol.com - 04 Mar 2010 14:33 GMT > >>Dragon is supposed to be launched with Falcon 9 only, so if they want to > >>have a crewed version of Dragon Falcon 9 will have to be man-rated, no? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > �longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." > �- Antoine de Saint-Exupery highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone.
Fred J. McCall - 04 Mar 2010 15:05 GMT :highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry :jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. You think government jobs pay more than in private industry? That's really quite funny!
 Signature "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson
hallerb@aol.com - 05 Mar 2010 12:41 GMT > :highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry > :jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. > > You think government jobs pay more than in private industry? �That's > really quite funny! several things.
most US jobs being created are of the wallmart type, so yep government pays more and has plush benefits like health insurance.
obama inhertited our countries fiancial collapse, he got transported in as the captain of the titanic after it hit the iceberg,
obama inherited the shuttles end date, it was established far before obama even ran for president.
bush proposed the moon mars program but then backed off giving it little money and even less support. at best it was electionering with no real commitment.
nasa griffin and congress decided rather than use a existing expendable we will specificy a capsule too large to fit on any existing booster so we can build our own, pay off shuttle contractors, and have control over the pork.
the shape of the capsule wasnt the main problem it was just too large to begin with.....
nasa is so gridlocked by politics its near as bad as congress/
the american public doesnt support nasa, probably for good reason: ( all it does is burn money going round and round. Taxpayers footed bill for ISS to what scientific end? just excuses why no world shattering science hasnt come from it.
obama must be serious about cutting governmment spending, or our country will collapse. the space program is just the beginning.
did you hear the republicans first gripe about federal spending? then howl with ourage when the nasa cut was announced?
finally all the attacks here are getting really boring, why cant we all get along?
Fred J. McCall - 05 Mar 2010 15:03 GMT :> :highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry :> :jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : :several things. Which all amount to you being a loon.
As expected...
 Signature "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine
Rick Jones - 04 Mar 2010 19:19 GMT > highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry > jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. Ironic - while I was growing up my parents were civil servants. Their pay was not higher than their private counterparts. Their jobs may have been more "secure" - well modulo Ronnie's RIFs - and (back then) their pension may have been better, but their pay was not.
rick jones
 Signature a wide gulf separates "what if" from "if only" these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Pat Flannery - 07 Mar 2010 20:12 GMT >> highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry >> jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have been more "secure" - well modulo Ronnie's RIFs - and (back then) > their pension may have been better, but their pay was not. If it was anything like working for the US Post Office,like the dad of a friend of mine did, one of the key assets of the job was the extremely good worker and retirement benefits that work for the US Government in any civil capacity came with...he had a union contract the size of a Sears Roebuck Christmas Gift Catalog. I imagine being a full-time employee of NASA has some pretty nice employee benefits also once you get a few years in it behind you. Male sstronauts of course enjoy the right of Prima Nocta with any bride in Florida or Texas that they desire. That's not in their contract; it's just that they're astronauts and can get away with sh.t like that.
Pat
OM - 07 Mar 2010 21:35 GMT >I imagine being a full-time employee of NASA has some pretty nice >employee benefits also once you get a few years in it behind you. ...And yet getting fired will usually deny you of those bennies with rather great ease. I suspect that's why a certain justifiably terminated NASA employee went all off on them with his NASAWank "watchdog" site.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Jochem Huhmann - 05 Mar 2010 23:04 GMT >> The crewed Dragon is basically the same as the cargo version and also >> meant to be launched on the Falcon 9. > > highly paid government jobs replaced by normal pay private industry > jobs = big cost savings and ultimate growth of space for everyone. I don't know if it is that simple. Still, SpaceX has about 900 employees and is building almost everything inhouse. For a launcher and a spacecraft going to and returning from the ISS this seems to indicate a really, really lean company. I don't know how much they pay but I can imagine them not paying that bad. They just have to pay much fewer people than the usual suspects.
Jochem
 Signature "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
hallerb@aol.com - 08 Mar 2010 14:50 GMT > I don't know if it is that simple. Still, SpaceX has about 900 employees > and is building almost everything inhouse. For a launcher and a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > � � � � Jochem just the savings on paper approval can launch another vehicle.
its commonly accepted nasa will launch when the weight of the paperwork is equal to the weight of the vehicle
Brad Guth - 09 Mar 2010 21:37 GMT On Mar 8, 6:50 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I don't know if it is that simple. Still, SpaceX has about 900 employees > > and is building almost everything inhouse. For a launcher and a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > its commonly accepted nasa will launch when the weight of the > paperwork is equal to the weight of the vehicle GLOW = paper, and that sounds just about right, except the paper weight cost is usually at least ten fold as much as the all-inclusive GLOW cost.
~ BG
Jeff Findley - 01 Mar 2010 18:24 GMT >>> ...The hints are - at least what I'm hearing out of JSC - is that they >>> hope to at least keep the Orion capsule alive so that it can be used [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > such status will have to be "magic". Unless you know something we > don't, Jorge. What exactly does "man rating mean"? Well, it means whatever NASA feels like it means. Considering the billions wasted on Ares I, I think NASA could have "man rated" both Delta IV and Atlas V by now.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
OM - 02 Mar 2010 01:50 GMT >What exactly does "man rating mean"? ...To quote a Wikipedia article ISTR Henry having some input in when it was first written:
Human-rated or man-rated are terms used to describe the certification of a spacecraft, launch vehicle or airplane as worthy of transporting humans. NASA and the U.S. GAO now uses "Human-rating" when describing requirements for these systems. The terms "man-rated" and "human-rated" are mostly used interchangeably.
In spaceflight, a human-rating certification is the assurance that the space system accommodates human needs, effectively utilizes human capabilities, controls hazards with sufficient certainty to be considered safe for human operations, and provides, to the maximum extent practical, the capability to safely recover the crew from hazardous situations[1]. In the United States, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) has published NASA Procedural Requirement 8705.2 - Human Rating Requirements for Space Systems, defining the certification process and a set of technical requirements to be applied to its crewed space systems in addition to the standards and requirements that are mandatory for all of NASA's space flight programs[2].
There is a widespread belief that designing and operating a human-rated rocket is substantially more difficult than doing so for a rocket which carries only cargo.[who?] It is noteworthy that the development of the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station pre-dates the NASA Human-Rating requirements. After the Challenger and Columbia accidents, the criteria used by NASA for human-rating spacecraft have been made more stringent.[citation needed]
The United Launch Alliance (ULA) has published a paper detailing the modifications to its Delta IV and Atlas V launch vehicles that would be needed to conform to 8705.2B.[3] ULA has since been awarded $6.7 million under NASA's Commercial Crew Development (CCDev) program for development of an Emergency Detection System, one of the final pieces that would be needed to make these launchers suitable for manned spaceflight.
OM
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]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
Jeff Findley - 02 Mar 2010 16:16 GMT >>What exactly does "man rating mean"? > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > that would be needed to make these launchers suitable for manned > spaceflight. While the above is technically true, NASA has a long history of writing wavers to its own rules whenever it is convenient to do so. I believe that this was also a point that Henry Spencer has made in these newsgroups. A quick Google search turns up this posting from Henry Spencer (Sep 3 2003) in response to the question, "Can any rocket be 'man-rated'? What does the term mean in terms of quality assurance and such?":
It means you must satisfy Johnson Space Center that it is safe enough. There are now written guidelines for this, which another poster has supplied a pointer to. No spacecraft ever built has ever met them. Possibly none ever will; if JSC runs the program, it will get waivers (or even rewrites of the spec) as needed.
The original theory of man-rating was centered around making unreliable artillery rockets halfway safe for passengers. It stressed two things: quality control to minimize manufacturing defects, and redundant hardware to ensure that a single hardware failure would not endanger the passengers. (For example, for Gemini, the Titan II got some redundant electronics, and a second first-stage hydraulic system, to ensure that no single failure in guidance and control could put an engine hard over to one side while still in thick air.)
The idea has been elaborated on since, mostly by people who would be blamed for failures but not praised for successes. It still very much reflects the "making artillery rockets safe for people" mindset, and its appropriateness for reusable, testable vehicles is questionable. Note that airliners are not man-rated.
Whether *any* rocket can be man-rated depends on who's writing the specs. Traditionally, yes, although it might run up the cost and dry mass some. Nowadays, trying to man-rate something using large solids would at least raise eyebrows.
Jeff
 Signature "Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National Lampoon
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