Photos of crashed Orion test capsule
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Pat Flannery - 20 Aug 2008 01:07 GMT http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means.
Pat
Rick Jones - 20 Aug 2008 01:45 GMT In sci.space.policy Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote:
> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 > Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. *18* 'chutes for the test and 10 just to get it setup?!?
rick jones
 Signature No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision. - Jobert these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :) feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...
Pat Flannery - 20 Aug 2008 13:27 GMT > In sci.space.policy Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > *18* 'chutes for the test and 10 just to get it setup?!? > That hit me as very odd also, although it means it can probably land safely with one chute undeployed, there's a real potential for chutes tangling up with each other with that many involved. My all-time favorite thing for parachutes was this Soviet shuttle design that was a alternative to Buran: http://www.buran.ru/htm/str124.htm They had better hope that thing lands where intended, because if it ever comes down on a mountainside...
Pat
John - 20 Aug 2008 17:06 GMT > > In sci.space.policy Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pat OH NO . . . evidence that the blueprints for Fireball XL-5 fell into their hands *S*
Take care all
John
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 20 Aug 2008 18:57 GMT I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems and they'll get this fixed.
But for all those that claims chutes are inherently safer than wings, I think this provides a dramatic counter-example.
 Signature Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html
>> In sci.space.policy Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Pat OM - 20 Aug 2008 20:35 GMT On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:57:24 -0400, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> wrote:
>I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems ...Yeah, they really did sort of bite the dust on that one, didn't they?
OM
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Rand Simberg - 20 Aug 2008 20:59 GMT On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:57:24 -0400, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems and >they'll get this fixed. > >But for all those that claims chutes are inherently safer than wings, I >think this provides a dramatic counter-example. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone make such a claim.
Jorge R. Frank - 21 Aug 2008 02:44 GMT > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:57:24 -0400, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. > Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> made the phosphor [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone make such a claim. Right. But there are quite a few claiming capsules are safer than spaceplanes.
Rand Simberg - 21 Aug 2008 03:34 GMT On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:44:20 -0500, in a place far, far away, "Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:
>> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:57:24 -0400, in a place far, far away, "Greg D. >> Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deleteth1s@greenms.com> made the phosphor [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Right. But there are quite a few claiming capsules are safer than >spaceplanes. Yes, though that's a slightly different argument. Unfortunately, it's one that seems to have infected NASA at high levels...
Pat Flannery - 21 Aug 2008 15:34 GMT >> I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone make such a claim. > > Right. But there are quite a few claiming capsules are safer than > spaceplanes. They are certainly a lot lighter for a given payload that you want to orbit and return. They also tend to be tougher if the Soyuz is anything to go by...despite several abnormal returns, only one cosmonaut ever got killed during reentry of a Soyuz (the Soyuz 11 crew died prior to reentry). As Columbia showed, even small abnormalities in a Shuttle reentry can lead to fatalities. God help you if it ever came in wrong-end first like Soyuz 5.
Jorge R. Frank - 21 Aug 2008 04:38 GMT > I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems and > they'll get this fixed. Per Henry Spencer, it was caused by a flaw in the test setup rather than a flaw in the design of the Orion parachute system:
<http://www.newscientist.com/blog/space/2008/08/spacecraft-crash-due-to-test-setu p-not.html?DCMP=ILC-rhts&nsref=ts13_head>
(Henry doesn't post to s.s.* any more, but y'all can pretend he came back and posted this:)
Spacecraft crash due to test setup, not design flaw
NASA has quietly released photos and video of a 31 July parachute test for its future Orion astronaut capsule that didn't go so well: the mockup capsule hit the ground pretty hard. Unsurprisingly, some have jumped on this, claiming that NASA is trying to cover up a failure.
The full story is a bit more complicated than that. I'm sure NASA wasn't eager to publicise this embarrassing episode, but it wasn't exactly a failure. There was a problem, yes, but it was in part of the test setup, rather than in the parachutes that would actually land an operational Orion after a trip to the space station or the Moon.
Testing a parachute drop of a heavy object is not simple. In particular, several auxiliary parachutes were used to help set up the right test conditions, so that Orion's own three-part parachute system would get a realistic test. Orion uses "drogue" chutes that ensure the capsule is stable, as well as "pilot" chutes that pull its main chutes out.
Unfortunately, some of the auxiliary chutes failed, and as a result the Orion parachute system was activated at high speed, in dense, low-altitude air. The drogue parachutes failed instantly on deployment in the unrealistically harsh conditions. Then the capsule began to tumble, main-parachute deployment was hopelessly messed up, and hope of anything resembling a soft landing was lost.
Foul-ups in testing are not uncommon, especially when the test setup is being tried for the first time. One of the headaches of high-tech test programmes is having to debug the test arrangements before you can start debugging the things you're trying to test.
Sometimes a malfunctioning test setup actually gives the tested system a chance to show what it can do in an unrehearsed emergency. During a test of an Apollo escape-system in the 1960s, the escape system successfully got the capsule clear of a malfunctioning test rocket.
But sometimes the test conditions are so unrealistically severe that there's no hope of correct functioning. Unpleasant though the result often looks, this isn't properly considered a failure of the tested system. That seems to have been what happened here.
Properly speaking, the outcome of this test is best summed up not as "failure" but as "no test". That's testing jargon for "the test setup messed up so badly that the test told us nothing about the tested system". Expensive and embarrassing, yes, but it doesn't indicate a problem with the Orion design.
OM - 21 Aug 2008 04:50 GMT >(Henry doesn't post to s.s.* any more, but y'all can pretend he came >back and posted this:) ...When you consider *why* he doesn't post here anymore, it's more than enough reason to wish Elfnazi, Guthball and the rest of the trolls would die horrible, violent deaths between now and sunrise.
OM
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Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 21 Aug 2008 14:03 GMT >> I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems and >> they'll get this fixed. > > Per Henry Spencer, it was caused by a flaw in the test setup rather than a > flaw in the design of the Orion parachute system: <snipping>
This was my guess also. It looks like it never properly left the vehicle in the first place.
(to be clear, I'm not changing my position, since I think designing adequate tests is part of teething problems :-)
That said, I still stick by my comments that capsules with chutes are not necessarily any safer than spacecraft with wings.
 Signature Greg Moore SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available! Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html
Jeff Findley - 21 Aug 2008 14:25 GMT > That said, I still stick by my comments that capsules with chutes are not > necessarily any safer than spacecraft with wings. True. But spacecraft with wings are almost always more complex than spacecraft with parachutes (which tend to be capsules). Complexity almost always drives up development and operational costs, so spacecraft with parachutes are likely to be cheaper than those with wings.
Jeff
 Signature A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein
Jorge R. Frank - 21 Aug 2008 15:28 GMT >> That said, I still stick by my comments that capsules with chutes are not >> necessarily any safer than spacecraft with wings. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > always drives up development and operational costs, so spacecraft with > parachutes are likely to be cheaper than those with wings. Cheaper to build, yes.
Cheaper to operate? Depends on flight rate.
Scott Hedrick - 21 Aug 2008 18:03 GMT >There was a problem, yes, but it was in part of the test setup, This is one of the only two ways an experiment could truly fail. An experiment that does not give you the data you *want* isn't necessarily a failure.
The failure modes for experiments are: 1. Mechanical failure (as we saw here) and 2. Design failure (where said experiment operates just fine and produces data, but was improperly designed to test what the experimenters wanted to test).
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Jeff Findley - 21 Aug 2008 14:00 GMT >I will say up front that I believe this is purely teething problems and >they'll get this fixed. Most likely. Apollo had some problems with chutes, but nothing terribly serious during actual flights.
> But for all those that claims chutes are inherently safer than wings, I > think this provides a dramatic counter-example. To be fair, the failure was with the chutes used to set up the test, not the Orion chutes. So this wasn't so much an Orion failure as it was a failure to test properly.
Jeff
 Signature A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein
Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:40 GMT > Most likely. Apollo had some problems with chutes, but nothing terribly > serious during actual flights. > They did have the one on Apollo 15 where one of the three didn't inflate due to damage from leaking RCS fuel. At sea that was survivable; during a emergency landing on solid ground that may not have been the case.
Pat
Janitor_of_Lunacy - 05 Sep 2008 18:42 GMT > > In sci.space.policy Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pat From the article, it looks like Orion uses the same chute arrangement as Apollo. (Two drogues, three pilots, three main.)
Scott Stevenson - 20 Aug 2008 02:02 GMT >http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. It's a small consolation, but I know they had a lot of problems with the Apollo chutes as well...
take care, Scott "It's not the fall--it's the sudden stop at the end"
OM - 20 Aug 2008 02:20 GMT >http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. ...Anyone else having problems getting Spaceref to load?
OM
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OM - 20 Aug 2008 02:25 GMT >http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. ...Ok, the link works now. But I'm a bit conbefuddled here: didn't the initial report of the chute failure say AbZero about total chute failure?
Worst aspect of the failure? Keith Cowing will have another new banner to wave in his vengeful campaign of doom'n'gloom against NASA...
OM
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Joseph Nebus - 20 Aug 2008 06:18 GMT >>http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >>Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means.
>...Ok, the link works now. But I'm a bit conbefuddled here: didn't the >initial report of the chute failure say AbZero about total chute >failure?
>Worst aspect of the failure? Keith Cowing will have another new banner >to wave in his vengeful campaign of doom'n'gloom against NASA... Oh, well, the first picture shows what went wrong. They're supposed to drop the capsule pointy-side *up*, for crying out loud.
 Signature Joseph Nebus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Flannery - 20 Aug 2008 13:34 GMT > ...Ok, the link works now. But I'm a bit conbefuddled here: didn't the > initial report of the chute failure say AbZero about total chute [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to wave in his vengeful campaign of doom'n'gloom against NASA... > That's where I ran into the story originally; it was on NASA Watch: http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2008/08/orion_crash_pho.html
Pat
OM - 20 Aug 2008 20:40 GMT >That's where I ran into the story originally; it was on NASA Watch: >http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2008/08/orion_crash_pho.html Q: Why is Keith Cowing out on some arctic expedition?
A: To keep from getting lynched by the rest of us over his vendetta against NASA justifiably firing him.
OM
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Jeff Findley - 20 Aug 2008 13:37 GMT >>http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >>Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. > > ...Ok, the link works now. But I'm a bit conbefuddled here: didn't the > initial report of the chute failure say AbZero about total chute > failure? That wasn't a crash, that was a hard landing that merely damaged the test article. Seriously, NASA PAO spins bad news as hard as they can.
Jeff
 Signature A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein
Derek Lyons - 20 Aug 2008 16:32 GMT > Seriously, NASA PAO spins bad news as hard as they can. Not like alt.spacers of course. They'd _never_ do that.
D.
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Dr.Colon.Oscopy@gmail.com - 20 Aug 2008 20:58 GMT On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907> Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means.> > PatIt was unstable from the time it left the drop. Watch the the whole drop video..........Doc
Pat Flannery - 21 Aug 2008 15:24 GMT > On Aug 19, 8:07 pm, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:> > http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907> Ouch! It's not as > bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means.> > PatIt was unstable > from the time it left the drop. Watch the the whole drop video. > That still wasn't as bad as Soyuz 1 going into the ground at few hundred mph, and exploding on impact: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soy1crsh.jpg In that case you couldn't even tell it was a spacecraft at one time. Still, the Orion drop was a major mess when you watch the video of it. That's odd, as the military got competent at dropping Sheridan tanks out of aircraft and having them stay right-side up till their main chutes deployed and they landed.
Pat
Derek Lyons - 21 Aug 2008 16:24 GMT >Still, the Orion drop was a major mess when you watch the video of it. >That's odd, as the military got competent at dropping Sheridan tanks out >of aircraft and having them stay right-side up till their main chutes >deployed and they landed. I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for Orion.
D.
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Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 21 Aug 2008 17:52 GMT >>Still, the Orion drop was a major mess when you watch the video of it. >>That's odd, as the military got competent at dropping Sheridan tanks out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for > Orion. Or that the military got it right on the first try.
> D.
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Janitor_of_Lunacy - 05 Sep 2008 18:36 GMT On Aug 21, 12:52 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <mooregr_deletet...@greenms.com> wrote:
> >>Still, the Orion drop was a major mess when you watch the video of it. > >>That's odd, as the military got competent at dropping Sheridan tanks out [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Or that the military got it right on the first try. I once saw a video of a Sheridan test which resulted in the tank bouncing and ending up on its back.
Pat Flannery - 06 Sep 2008 01:27 GMT > I once saw a video of a Sheridan test which resulted in the tank > bouncing and ending up on its back. > Considering the tendency of the caseless ammunition to ignite when you tried to reload the gun after firing it, this probably delighted its intended crew. :-) My older brother saw one fry itself that way at Fort Bragg during a public demonstration back around 1970. Luckily, the crew all got out in time.
Pat
BradGuth - 06 Sep 2008 14:49 GMT On Sep 5, 10:36 am, Janitor_of_Lunacy <janitor_of_lun...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Aug 21, 12:52 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I once saw a video of a Sheridan test which resulted in the tank > bouncing and ending up on its back. The test to see what happens when the Orion parachutes fail to deploy properly and when the capsule isn't aerodynamically stable is what went according to plan. Now we also know what happens when our DARPA minions as resident village idiot morons are in charge.
Too bad that after all of these decades that we still have no viable fly-by-rocket lander, not even on the drawing board.
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Pat Flannery - 21 Aug 2008 22:06 GMT > I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for > Orion. > No, but the Orion team should have gone to them and asked for advice on how to do this, as they dump heavy cargo out of the rear of jet cargo planes that then deploys chutes and descends to earth quite frequently. They even managed to slide a Minuteman missile out the back of a C-5, have it align nose upright under a parachute, then ignite and ascend on its planned trajectory.
Pat
John - 22 Aug 2008 04:24 GMT > > I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for > > Orion. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Pat I agree Pat, and in way, both of your points are made here. Chances are somewhere very early in all of this, the military had a lot of "less than great" outcomes. But they do have a LOT of success nowadays shoving things out of the backs of airplanes and getting them extracted and to the ground in one piece, and a few riggers with the right background could have made a difference . . . if . .. and this is a big if in any human organization, if someone is willing to listen.
best to you all
John
Janitor_of_Lunacy - 05 Sep 2008 18:40 GMT > I agree Pat, and in way, both of your points are made here. Chances > are somewhere very early in all of this, the military had a lot of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John Different intended results. The military parachute rigging is designed to result on payloads landing safely. The system that failed in the NASA test was designed for a much more specific situation, it was designed to get the capsule in an orientation and trajectory which would match that of a launch abort at some point prior to Orion's own chute deployment. You can't just drop it out the back of a C-17.
BradGuth - 06 Sep 2008 15:03 GMT On Sep 5, 10:40 am, Janitor_of_Lunacy <janitor_of_lun...@msn.com> wrote:
> > I agree Pat, and in way, both of your points are made here. Chances > > are somewhere very early in all of this, the military had a lot of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > would match that of a launch abort at some point prior to Orion's own > chute deployment. You can't just drop it out the back of a C-17. If it was a sphere, as it should have been, or perhaps as a wedge with aerodynamic surfaces could have been easily accomplished.
Basically, they all screwed up rather badly, and here you are making up excuses.
Same goes for having their latest rocket exploding shortly after launch. But then perhaps the real intent was to see what happens when more of those same village idiot morons are in charge. How about we should listen to their step by step command center audio (including background chatter), as I'm not convinced (being that it was of such little altitude but still going strong) that it was even a controlled destruction?
~ BG
Derek Lyons - 22 Aug 2008 07:55 GMT >> I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for >> Orion. > >No, but the Orion team should have gone to them and asked for advice on >how to do this, And you know they didn't... how? *Precisely*.
D.
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Pat Flannery - 22 Aug 2008 22:49 GMT > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And you know they didn't... how? *Precisely*. > So did they or didn't they? First you state that you find it very unlikely they did, then you state that I can't prove that they didn't.
Pat
Derek Lyons - 25 Aug 2008 05:39 GMT >> >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >First you state that you find it very unlikely they did, then you state >that I can't prove that they didn't. In other words, you decline to answer.
D.
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BradGuth - 25 Aug 2008 15:36 GMT > >>>> I find it very unlikely the military designed the test equipment for > >>>> Orion. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. > Oct 5th, 2004 JDL Why didn't this kind of impressive "right stuff" of NASA make prime- time news?
Wasn't it spectacular enough?
Wasn't it spendy enough?
Have they not yet informed the astronauts that are going to ride this new and improved re-entry coffin?
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Industrial One - 21 Aug 2008 04:37 GMT > http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 > Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. > > Pat Ah HAHAH that beyotch got pwned! LOLZORZ!
BradGuth - 21 Aug 2008 15:43 GMT > http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 > Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. > > Pat Are we good at this kind of splat, or what.
Say again, as to where our physics and science smart wizards of our Zionist/Nazi DARPA are these days.
Why not simply use a well proven fly-by-rocket method of soft-landing Orion?
How about we outsorce our complex Orion to China, or India?
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
BradGuth - 24 Aug 2008 17:12 GMT > http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 > Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. > > Pat Like the “NASA test rocket explodes (ATK's ALV X-1)”, why is mainstream media not giving this kind of spectacular and spendy event full televised coverage?
Why is our mainstream media buying along with the usual DARPA/NASA context of damage-control?
Clearly one of the ATK's ALV X-1 flight control thrusters wasn't working, but all others seemed to be functioning. So why terminate their flight so close to the ground?
Clearly the chute deployed method of performing a safe and reliable deorbit/reentry technology is too complicated for our NASA to cope with. But without a viable fly-by-rocket lander, what alternatives do we have?
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
anonymousNetUser - 24 Aug 2008 23:47 GMT >> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 >> Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > with. But without a viable fly-by-rocket lander, what alternatives do > we have? Using a chute for the last stage of a deorbit/re-entry works just fine. Witness all the successful landings of the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions.
NASA's problem is just that they're having to relearn all of this from scratch. All the guys that solved the problems the first time (50's, 60's and early 70's) are dead or long retired. There's no one left at NASA that remembers how to do this. But I'm sure they'll figure it out...just like they did the first time around.
BradGuth - 25 Aug 2008 00:20 GMT > >>http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=28907 > >> Ouch! It's not as bad as Soyuz 1, but it's not good by any means. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > NASA that remembers how to do this. But I'm sure they'll figure it > out...just like they did the first time around. But don’t they have to first get safely to that last deorbit/re-entry phase?
Sure, why the hell not use rockets that’ll explode and/or having to be destroyed, then using an as-built complex parachute fiasco that might work unless any of several dozen things goes terribly wrong.
BTW; would the supposedly new and improved LES (launch escape system) or LAS(launch abort system) have done it’s job, if the Orion had it’s bigger and nastier as-built stick rocket(s) blown out from beneath them?
Seems the vertical rate of uncontrolled rocket fuel burn is going to outpace whatever LAS can muster. Are those parachutes and tethers going to be fire proof?
How many all-inclusive Orion deorbit/re-entry tonnes are we talking about?
~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
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