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New Russian/ESA crew vehicle revealed !!!! replaces Soyuz

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J Waggoner - 24 Jul 2008 00:04 GMT
Manned spaceship design unveiled
By Paul Rincon
Science reporter, BBC News

   
For images go to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7519723.stm

Russian firm RKK Energia has spent two years designing the vehicle

The first official image of a Russian-European manned spacecraft has
been unveiled.

It is designed to replace the Soyuz vehicle currently in use by Russia
and will allow Europe to participate directly in crew transportation.

The reusable ship was conceived to carry four people towards the Moon,
rivalling the US Ares/Orion system.

Unlike previous crewed vehicles, it will use thrusters to make a soft
landing when it returns to Earth.

Russian aerospace writer and graphic designer Anatoly Zak has produced
artist's renderings of the new craft based on a design released by
Russian manufacturer RKK Energia at the Farnborough Air Show in the UK
last week.
   
I think the main roadmap is the agreement between the European and
Russian space agencies. That is their Plan A
Anatoly Zak

In some respects, the capsule resembles America's next-generation
spacecraft Orion. The 18-to-20-tonne Russian-European vehicle is
designed to carry six crew into low-Earth orbit and four on missions
to lunar orbit.

One of the most unusual features about the capsule appear to be the
thrusters and landing gear on its underside. Mr Zak said it would use
these engines to soften its landing on Earth after the fiery re-entry
through our atmosphere.

The European Space Agency (Esa) has been talking to its Russian
counterpart Roscosmos about collaborating on the Crew Space
Transportation System (CSTS) since 2006.

Launcher decision

"If Esa and the Russian Space Agency reach agreement, Europe will
supply the service module of that co-operative spacecraft," Mr Zak
told BBC News.

This service module will use technology - such as the propulsion
systems - developed for Europe's Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV), an
unmanned freighter recently sent to re-supply the International Space
Station (ISS).

Russia may provide the launcher for the new manned spacecraft. This
might be an entirely new vehicle, or a modification of an existing
rocket.
   
Thrusters would cushion the spacecraft's landing

Mr Zak said Russia was insisting in its negotiations with Europe that
all future manned projects be based in Vostochny, the new cosmodrome
being developed in Russia's eastern Amur region. The Russian
government wants to host its first manned launch from that site in
2018.

At the moment, all manned Soyuz launches take place from Baikonur
Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.

Alternatively, the space agencies could opt to "man-rate" Europe's
Ariane 5 launcher, which lifts off from Kourou in French Guiana. This
would allow the rocket to carry humans into space.

This would involve making major modifications to Kourou spaceport,
including the development of infrastructure to support a crew escape
system in the event of an emergency.

It is quite possible that both launch sites would play a role in any
collaborative programme, which would necessitate the lofting of cargo
as well as human crew.

However, if this collaboration falls apart, Europe has another option
for direct manned access to space.

Other option

In May this year, European aerospace company EADS Astrium unveiled its
own model of a crewed space vehicle, described as an "evolution" of
the ATV, which was built by a consortium of European companies led by
Astrium.

It would combine what is essentially the avionics and propulsion end
of the ATV with a crew compartment taking the place of the current
cargo section.
   
ATV "Evolution" (Astrium)
EADS Astrium has proposed a manned version of the ATV

Berlin unveils 'crewed spaceship'

Mr Zak commented: "I think the main roadmap is the agreement between
the European and Russian space agencies. That is their Plan A. Their
Plan B is the initiative made by EADS Astrium in Bremen."

But if the agencies want a manned craft capable of reaching the Moon,
they will need to develop new, more powerful rockets than those on the
drawing board today.

"This is an open question, there are no decisions on how to proceed,"
said Mr Zak.

The CSTS is also sometimes referred to as the Advanced Crew
Transportation System (ACTS). Esa and Roscosmos started talks on the
project after some Esa member states rejected further involvement in
the development of another manned spacecraft called Kliper.

The proposals will go before a crucial meeting of space ministers from
European member states in November this year.

Paul.Rincon-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk

For images go to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7519723.stm
Brian Thorn - 24 Jul 2008 01:25 GMT
>Manned spaceship design unveiled

The headline should be "Yet Another Manned Spaceship Design Unveiled".
Until either of the space agencies involved actually pony up the money
to build it (don't hold your breath), take it with a grain of salt.

Kliper, anyone?

Brian
Jorge R. Frank - 24 Jul 2008 01:39 GMT
>> Manned spaceship design unveiled
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Kliper, anyone?

Yup. And more. Fixed the thread subject line.
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 24 Jul 2008 01:44 GMT
>>> Manned spaceship design unveiled
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Yup. And more. Fixed the thread subject line.

The most telling part is how it so closely matches or improves upon Orion.
Let's see.  6 passengers to LEO.  Check.  4 to the Moon.  Check.

Land landing... oops, we beat Orion on that one!

Definitely sounds like someone was designing against a checklist.

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Pat Flannery - 24 Jul 2008 12:36 GMT
> The headline should be "Yet Another Manned Spaceship Design Unveiled".
> Until either of the space agencies involved actually pony up the money
> to build it (don't hold your breath), take it with a grain of salt.
>
> Kliper, anyone?
>  

This time it may be a serous proposal - what's been missing for all of
their new designs is funding - they have plenty of ideas, but no rubles
to build them.
ESA  may look at the price tag on this versus a manned version of their
ATV, and go with the Russian design.
I thought it looked familiar when I saw it; Anatoly Zak has its design
heritage here: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts_origin.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts_history.html
This lunar expedition design is interesting also:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/los.html

Pat
Jochem Huhmann - 24 Jul 2008 14:47 GMT
> ESA  may look at the price tag on this versus a manned version of their
> ATV, and go with the Russian design.

ESA may be (and is) cooperating with the Russians in certain fields, but
if ESA will spend money for a manned craft they will give it to their
usual suspects. There's quite a bit of momentum behind a "manned ATV"
right now, but this would evaporate instantly if ESA would even think of
buying a craft from the Russians. No way.

       Jochem

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longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
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Jeff Findley - 24 Jul 2008 14:38 GMT
> Manned spaceship design unveiled
> By Paul Rincon
> Science reporter, BBC News

The Russians have "designs" for new manned space vehicles every few years.
The latest is an attempt to get ESA on board to share the development and
manufacturing costs.  I'm not sure ESA will bite since their ATV would be a
good starting point for a manned capsule design.

Jeff
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A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

George - 24 Jul 2008 16:53 GMT
>> Manned spaceship design unveiled
>> By Paul Rincon
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jeff

I thought the ATV WAS the starting point for this one.

George
Jeff Findley - 24 Jul 2008 19:14 GMT
>> The Russians have "designs" for new manned space vehicles every few
>> years. The latest is an attempt to get ESA on board to share the
>> development and manufacturing costs.  I'm not sure ESA will bite since
>> their ATV would be a good starting point for a manned capsule design.
>
> I thought the ATV WAS the starting point for this one.

True, but ESA has at least notional plans to do this on their own.  Russia's
proposal looks like they're trying to convince ESA that they shouldn't go it
alone.  Over the years, Russia has made many similar proposals for new
jointly developed spacecraft.  Not much of anything has ever happened on any
of the old proposals.

Jeff
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A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

John Doe - 24 Jul 2008 20:32 GMT
Russia is really enjoying/relishing its coming "monopoly" on manned
launches with its cheap Soyuz.

If Europe makes a manned ATV, it means russia not only loses its
monopoly, but because Soyuz is smaller, it may lose a lot of power in
the space "business" because in the end, ISS participants will end up
buying seats from the europeans (or possibly americans if their CEV
materialises AND if they are allowed to start selling seats).

The beauty of the Soyuz is that, while small, it is simple and dirt
cheap. They can roll them off the assembly line. And in the end, perhaps
it would be best for Russia to focus on that. Building the volkswagon
beatle for space, and let the euros build the BMW, and the americans
build an expensive SUV.

I doubt Arianne+ATV will every come close to a soyuz in terms of low cost.

By getting the europeans to join forces with the russians, it
essentially preserves the russians' importance by preventing Euros from
building their own competing service.
Pat Flannery - 24 Jul 2008 22:00 GMT
> If Europe makes a manned ATV, it means russia not only loses its
> monopoly, but because Soyuz is smaller, it may lose a lot of power in
> the space "business" because in the end, ISS participants will end up
> buying seats from the europeans (or possibly americans if their CEV
> materialises AND if they are allowed to start selling seats).
>  
The problem is that at the moment ISS is only set to continue through
2015...Russia wants this extended to 2020.
So if a manned ATV was built, it would be ready to go around the time
the ISS is getting ready to be decommisioned by the present 2015 plan.
So there really won't be any threat to Soyuz use (although Progress is a
differnt story as the cargo ATV is now ready) in the near term.
If ISS is kept in service for 5 extra years, then you could start
running into Mir-type aging problems with its systems.
At the moment, one wonders about the gear problems on the solar array
rotator motors and if they are going to last anywhere near to 2015
without needing replacement.
If both the main and back-up motors on them fail, it's going to be a
real problem, as it's going to really screw up the total ISS power
generating capability.

> The beauty of the Soyuz is that, while small, it is simple and dirt
> cheap. They can roll them off the assembly line.

Actually, from what I've read they manufacture them in small batches
then store them while the production line is shut down till the next
batch is made to cut costs of running a permanent low-demand production
line.
I've got a photo around here somewhere of around five finished early
model Soyuz sitting wrapped in plastic at the production facility.

>  And in the end, perhaps
> it would be best for Russia to focus on that. Building the volkswagon
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I doubt Arianne+ATV will every come close to a soyuz in terms of low cost.
>  

You want to see something odd, in the manned ATV variant the capsule
sits with its escape tower atop it...inside of a nose fairing.

Pat
Rick Jones - 25 Jul 2008 01:29 GMT
In sci.space.history John Doe <jdoe@doe.org> wrote:
> Russia is really enjoying/relishing its coming "monopoly" on manned
> launches with its cheap Soyuz.

I'm not sure it is any wiser for Europe (or the US for that matter) to
depend on Russian launch capabilities than it is for Europe to depend
on Russia for energy supplies.

rick jones
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George - 29 Jul 2008 20:45 GMT
>>> The Russians have "designs" for new manned space vehicles every few
>>> years. The latest is an attempt to get ESA on board to share the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Jeff

That makes sense.

George
Pat Flannery - 24 Jul 2008 20:44 GMT
> The Russians have "designs" for new manned space vehicles every few years.
> The latest is an attempt to get ESA on board to share the development and
> manufacturing costs.  I'm not sure ESA will bite since their ATV would be a
> good starting point for a manned capsule design.
>  

This concept would have the advantage of using low-cost Russian labor to
build it.
On the other hand, you lose the public works aspect of the program to
European economies if you give the work to the Russians.
Who really should take a crack at this international spacecraft concept
are the Chinese.
They could turn them out at very low cost even compared to the Russians.
Frankly, I don't really know what Europe needs this for. By the time it
would be flying, the ISS will be ending its career, and I don't really
see the funding for a replacement station or manned European Moon
mission coming along

Pat
 
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