Space Forum / Space History / July 2004

In the scenario you offered -- a need to replace Aldrin with a few wees before
launch -- no question.  Haise had already been through an entire Apollo
training cycle prior to becoming backup on 11. He was dealing with 11's flight
plan, making him a more likely choice than Bean (next in line) or Cernan
(previous flight).

Now, Haise was not among the 18 astronauts Deke gathered in an office at MSC in
spring 1967, telling them the first lunar landing team was somewhere in that
room.  But that was prior to the death of C.C. Williams.

Michael Cassutt

Why not? The CDR was the one who actually piloted the LM, the LMP's job was
primarily reading off the instrumentation to him.

...In Fredo's case, he was the stronger candidate. Remember, each LM
had it's own modifications specific to the mission, and Fredo had been
in the sim specific for this mission. Rookie or not, he would have
moved up to the prime crew and there would have been two Dryden pilots
on the Moon.

...Of course, things would have not gone quite as well for Fredo in
later years. He'd have to undergo a trial for manslaughter after he
beats Bart Sibrel to death, not realizing that in some cases the
reason a CT nutter is the whacko he is doesn't necessarily result from
having a *thick* skull. He's later aquitted after the jury, over the
prosecution's objections, watches that bullshit Fox special and hears
the testimony from Jim Oberg and Phill Plait that tears Sibrel's case
a new a.shole so wide you could drive an oil tanker through it.
However, Sibrel's family is apparently located by the prosecution, and
once an English-Inbred translator is brought in, they're convinced to
file civil charges against Fredo for the loss of their loved one who
never did anything for them in the first place. As the ATL follows our
time progression, the trial should hit the jury in a couple of weeks.

                OM

He would have definitely been a candidate on a very short list of LM pilots.
I will assume that Deke would not place 2 commanders (e.g. Armstrong /
Stafford or McDivitt) on mission, but
would use Apollo designated or trained LM pilots.  The four likely LM pilots
to be considered are:

Fred W. Haise, Jr., (backup for Apollo 11 LM pilot, planned LM for original
Apollo 14 designation) - rookie
William A. Anders (Apollo 8, backup CM for Apollo 11) - already been in
moon, but without LM.  Current CM backup for Collins.
Eugene A. Cernan (Apollo 10) - Lunar orbit with LM, shake-down & dress
rehearsal.  Planned rotation to backup CM
Edgar D. Mitchell (original Apollo 13 designation, backup for Apollo 10) -
rookie
--------
Yes.  Haise is the top candidate -- since he is the Apollo 11 backup LM --  
and knows the mission plan (even though a rookie)
(This logic was later proved with the Apollo 13 CM change -- less than two
weeks before the flight)

Toss-up between Anders and Cernan for different reasons - both had lunar
flight experience - if flight experience (rookie) eliminates Haise

Anders was familiar with the Apollo 11 flight plan, but is CM backup for
Apollo 11.
Cernan would be familiar with portions of the plan, had Gemini experience
likely Aldrin  - BUT just returned from the Apollo 10 mission

-------------------------
Other LM candidates:
R. Walter Cunningham (Apollo 7 Co-pilot) - designated co-pilot, since LM
unavailable - unlikely
Russell L. Schweickart (Apollo 9 LM) - Earth orbit with LM, never assigned
to other Apollo moon missions (backup or prime)
Alan L. Bean (Apollo 12 LM) - unlikely to pulled out of current flight
rotation for next flight
David Scott (Apollo 12 CDR backup) - Gemini 8 flight experience with
Armstrong, not in LM pilot sequence - unlikely to be pulled from CDR
rotation
----------------

gb

IIRC, the one position that the head honchos were determined should NOT
be crewed by a rookie in the first few attempts was the CMP, who would
be spending a significant amount of time by himself in orbit and could,
conceivably, end up having to come back without his crewmates.  That
position it was thought demanded someone with experience.  If the office
wasn't willing to have a rookie LMP, they wouldn't have made one the backup.

rabbit

Sorry I just couldnt resist:)
HAVE A GREAT DAY!

On 8 Jul 2004 Mike Flugennock wrote:

Sounds reasonable except I think the flight would have slipped at
least one launch window.  One of the reasons that the Apollo 13
situation happened was that the person involved was the CMP who tends
to operate pretty independently of the other two.  However the CDR and
LMP have to train extensively together so I would be very surprised if
Deke would let the flight go as scheduled, particularly on a flight
this critical.

So I think what would happen would be:

- Fly Armstrong, Haise and Collins and let the flight slip 1 or 2
launch windows to ensure Haise is up to speed with Armstrong.

- Alternately swap the entire prime with the backup crew thus fly
Lovell, Haise and Anders with a 1 or 2 launch window slip.

- If the slip would be more than 2 launch windows, Deke might opt to
swap the Apollo 11 and 12 prime crews around.  This is sort of what
happened in the Apollo 13/14 scenario when Al Shepherd was introduced
to the mix.

My best guess.

Mark Percival
Montreal, Quebec