Taking out the garbage
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Matt J. McCullar - 25 May 2004 01:27 GMT Here and there I've read books on spaceflight that make mention of the garbage that accumulates in a spacecraft, and what to do with it. If the flight is short enough, all the garbage is just stored on board and brought back to the ground for disposal. But during the Soviet Salyut space station days, the Progress supply ships were filled with garbage after unloading supplies and allowed to burn up during re-entry. But even bi-monthly supply ships were not always enough to hold everything you wanted to throw away.
William Pogue wrote in his "How do you go to the bathroom in space?" book that it isn't a good idea to just heave trash out the door when you're in low Earth orbit, as it's a hazard. He did not provide detail as to exactly what such garbage might endanger... if it's left in the same orbit as your own craft.
EVAs are not done for fun or for superfluous jobs, but I still can't help wondering why you can't just throw garbage toward the Earth, where it can burn up all by itself in the atmosphere. You can compact stuff into capsules that can be handled easily, perhaps ejected by remote control. Just point the thing toward the ground (over the Pacific ocean?) and pull the trigger.
Good/Bad/Stupid idea?
Chuck Stewart - 25 May 2004 01:34 GMT > William Pogue wrote in his "How do you go to the bathroom in space?" book > that it isn't a good idea to just heave trash out the door when you're in > low Earth orbit, as it's a hazard. He did not provide detail as to exactly > what such garbage might endanger... if it's left in the same orbit as your > own craft. Other craft.
Other folks with craft in space will most likely _not_ be in the same orbit as your garbage... with the same timing.
Thus a "space baggy" floating gently away from your craft becomes a 3-5 km/sec ship killer to some future craft.
> EVAs are not done for fun or for superfluous jobs, but I still can't help > wondering why you can't just throw garbage toward the Earth, where it can > burn up all by itself in the atmosphere. You can compact stuff into > capsules that can be handled easily, perhaps ejected by remote control. > Just point the thing toward the ground (over the Pacific ocean?) and pull > the trigger. Er... for sufficiently strong values of "throw"... You'll need small rockets to do the job, and your cost just became significant.
> Good/Bad/Stupid idea? Expensive idea.
 Signature Chuck Stewart "Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
Jorge R. Frank - 25 May 2004 01:44 GMT > William Pogue wrote in his "How do you go to the bathroom in space?" > book that it isn't a good idea to just heave trash out the door when > you're in low Earth orbit, as it's a hazard. He did not provide > detail as to exactly what such garbage might endanger... if it's left > in the same orbit as your own craft. The garbage will not stay in the same orbit. Differential drag will cause its orbit to slowly decay, and once at a different altitude, differential nodal regression will shift its orbital plane. Since every individual piece of garbage will likely have a different ballistic coefficient, each piece will wind up in a different orbital plane. They would be hazardous to any spacecraft in a lower orbit than the station, until they enter the atmosphere and burn up.
> EVAs are not done for fun or for superfluous jobs, but I still can't > help wondering why you can't just throw garbage toward the Earth, > where it can burn up all by itself in the atmosphere. You can compact > stuff into capsules that can be handled easily, perhaps ejected by > remote control. Just point the thing toward the ground (over the > Pacific ocean?) and pull the trigger. Firing it towards Earth betrays an ignorance of the laws of orbital mechanics. If the garbage is propelled perpendicular to the velocity vector, its total mechanical energy is unaffected (to first order). It will come back and re-contact the station in a half-orbit (if propelled out-of- plane) or one orbit (if propelled toward or away from the Earth). The only way to ensure quick deorbit is to fire the garbage in a direction *opposite* the station velocity vector, and at a fairly high rate (~100 m/s). This is far faster than a suited EVA crewmember could possibly throw it (for comparison, a major-league fastball is around 30 m/s). It is probably close to the limits of what can be done with simple spring ejection; you'd probably want a compressed-gas gun or something similar.
> Good/Bad/Stupid idea? With the mods I propose (firing opposite the velocity vector rather than towards Earth, and at a rate of at least 100 m/s), it's at least marginally practical.
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Scott Hedrick - 25 May 2004 01:59 GMT > With the mods I propose (firing opposite the velocity vector rather than > towards Earth, and at a rate of at least 100 m/s), it's at least marginally > practical. Trash catapult- a rail with a bucket that opens towards the trailing edge, with the beginning of the rail near an existing airlock. Periodically (usually about the same time as scheduled maintenance) load the bucket, and fire when the route is clear. Pitch the trash AND boost the station a bit.
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home) - 25 May 2004 22:42 GMT Am Mon, 24 May 2004 20:59:42 -0400 schrieb "Scott Hedrick":
>Trash catapult- [...] Pitch the trash AND boost the station a bit. Simply SMART :-)
cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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OM - 26 May 2004 00:55 GMT >Am Mon, 24 May 2004 20:59:42 -0400 schrieb "Scott Hedrick": > >>Trash catapult- [...] Pitch the trash AND boost the station a bit. > >Simply SMART :-) ...I have this vision of a huge rubber band stretched between solar arrays, being used to shoot the garbage back and down.
OM
 Signature "No bastard ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr
Chuck Stewart - 25 May 2004 02:14 GMT <snip usual JRF fact-fest...>
>> Good/Bad/Stupid idea?
> With the mods I propose (firing opposite the velocity vector rather than > towards Earth, and at a rate of at least 100 m/s), it's at least marginally > practical. Er... if the above is to be applied to ISS... wouldn't you have to reduce the size of your dumps, and thus increase the frequency of them?
I'm thinking that giving our "premier microgravity research outpost" the recoil from accelerating a Progress-worth of garbage to 100 m/s relative would be viewed... unkindly... by some folks, would it not?
 Signature Chuck Stewart "Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"
Jorge R. Frank - 25 May 2004 04:06 GMT > Er... if the above is to be applied to ISS... wouldn't you have to > reduce the size of your dumps, and thus increase the frequency of > them? Most likely. A system large enough to eject a Progress-full or MPLM-full of garbage would be pretty elaborate, I'd think.
> I'm thinking that giving our "premier microgravity research outpost" > the recoil from accelerating a Progress-worth of garbage to 100 m/s > relative would be viewed... unkindly... by some folks, would it not? Depends on how seriously you take the new "vision for space exploration". It's mainly the materials science experiments that really care about the quality of micro-G. If ISS science is refocused on human adaptation/countermeasures, the level of concern goes way down.
(Mind you, ESA and JAXA might still want to focus on materials science, in which case I'd expect NASA to show their views the same consideration and respect they always have.)
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hop - 26 May 2004 06:44 GMT "Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message >
> Depends on how seriously you take the new "vision for space exploration". > It's mainly the materials science experiments that really care about the > quality of micro-G. If ISS science is refocused on human > adaptation/countermeasures, the level of concern goes way down. And stuff like progress dock/unock/reboosts are not exactly pure micro-G either. Assuming your trash booster isn't something runs all the time, this shouldn't be a show stopper. If it ran for 1 full day every couple months, that wouldn't be much more disruptive than current ops.
Alternatively, what about an incinerator, ejecting the resulting hot gas out a rocket nozzle. Whatever solids remained could packed into progress for deorbit.
Henry Spencer - 26 May 2004 14:01 GMT >Alternatively, what about an incinerator, ejecting the resulting hot >gas out a rocket nozzle... There was some work, back in SSF days, on resistojets (electrically heated rocket engines) to run on waste water and the like. It's one of the things that died in the endless cutback series.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; science observations running | Henry Spencer since Oct; first surprises seen; papers pending. | henry@spsystems.net
Herb Schaltegger - 26 May 2004 16:23 GMT > >Alternatively, what about an incinerator, ejecting the resulting hot > >gas out a rocket nozzle... > > There was some work, back in SSF days, on resistojets (electrically heated > rocket engines) to run on waste water and the like. It's one of the things > that died in the endless cutback series. Those died VERY early on, predominantly due to power usage.
One of the things people tend to overlook in their "Usenet-engineering" of large, complicated space vehicles or structures which are to be built or assembled over time is the complication brought about by that stretched-out assembly time-frame.
In the case of a modular space station, since it is built over a period of months and years rather than days and weeks, power for operation of GNC systems and propulsion (and probably ECLSS as well, for segments with habitable volumes) has to be provided immediately and maintained continuously(*). There is a definite balancing act going on, especially early and mid-way through the sequence when the entire power-production infrastructure is not present. In the case of SSF/ISS, full power is four fully-functioning solar PV arrays with completely operational alpha and beta gimbals to track the sun fully and completely. Of course, that much surface area contributes tremendously to orbital drag; so in exchange for the electrical power capacity you have to provide substantial reboost capability. Early in the assembly sequence, power is severely constrained. You just don't have enough juice for stuff like resistojets so you provide an alternate reboost capability. By the time you work out all the operational aspects of that alternate reboost approach, it becomes obvious that resistojets are a "neat" idea that appeals to design engineers but not to operations types - you get to use all that waste water which is otherwise vented in an open-loop ECLSS and you put it to good use instead. However, a large part of the reason the ECLSS is open-loop is due to power consumption to close the loop with a full-up O2 generator and a Sabatier or Bosch reactor to reduce carbon dioxide. Well, if you have the power surplus to run resistojets, you'll probably have enough to close the ECLSS loop in the first place, severely reducing your supply of reaction mass for the resistojets. Meaning you need that alternate reboost capability anyway.
There are also the ancillary (and not inconsiderable) problems of mass for the runs of exterior, insulated piping needed to duct liquid water to the resistojets far out on the truss; power to run heaters in the lines; assembly sequence complications (another series of lines to attach to modules via EVA); risks of component corrosion from the water or urine used as reaction mass; and the risks of external contamination of PV arrays, TCS radiators and external experiment pallets from the exhaust.
*NOTE: A lot of people wonder why ECLSS has to be provided to modules immediately, even if they won't be opened and occupied for some time. There are several reasons: some of the electronic equipment is partially air-cooled and although it MAY be mounted on cold-plates for liquid cooling, operating without additional air cooling may result in reduced functionality or result in operational overload on the liquid cooling systems (especially prior to connection and operation of the full external TCS); also, if the module is allowed to heat up, certain components and materials will off-gas and/or out-gas impurities into the air, increasing the load on the ECLSS TCCS, possibly beyond its capacity to purify the air.
 Signature Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D. Reformed Aerospace Engineer Columbia Loss FAQ: <http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html>
Revision - 25 May 2004 07:19 GMT "Jorge R. Frank"
> Firing it towards Earth betrays an ignorance of the laws of orbital > mechanics. Yeah I think one could say that. Since velocity is what is making the orbital motion work, the way to get something down is to subtract some of its velocity.
Back in Gemini one of the things that NASA needed to find out was how close a capsule had to get to its rondezvous target before you could put down the slide rule and step on the gas. Turns out that if you are more than a small distance....a couple hundred meters...maybe less....that efforts to steer toward the target are run into problems with Isaac Newton or Tsiolkovsky.
Harald Kucharek - 25 May 2004 08:53 GMT > "Jorge R. Frank" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > efforts to steer toward the target are run into problems with Isaac > Newton or Tsiolkovsky. Nah. Kepler already could have told them.
Harald
Scott Hedrick - 25 May 2004 01:55 GMT >I still can't help > wondering why you can't just throw garbage toward the Earth, where it can > burn up all by itself in the atmosphere. Because you can't throw hard enough for it to make much difference. Of course, one orbit later when it impacts the station, it won't hit any harder than you threw it.
Throwing down has the effect of changing the orbit slightly- at perigee it should be slightly lower and apogee slightly higher. Eventually it will deorbit due to atmospheric drag, but not for a while. Ironically, by throwing down, you actually get it to speed up a bit.
You'd be better off throwing behind the station, where behind is defined as the trailing edge. You'd take a little off the orbital speed, and *that* will do more to get it to fall out of orbit. You'd also impart a tiny bit of momentum to the station. On the other hand, you still can't throw hard enough to make much difference.
Geert Sassen - 25 May 2004 14:27 GMT > days, the Progress supply ships were filled with garbage after unloading > supplies and allowed to burn up during re-entry. But even bi-monthly supply > ships were not always enough to hold everything you wanted to throw away. A certain amount of trash was also stowed in the OM of departing Soyuz flights (burns up on re-entry). And early Salyut flights did indeed eject trash bags via the airlock.
Weird enough during the Apollo flights there is never any mention of stowing the trash in the LM Ascent stage prior to final undocking of the LM. Neither do they mention dumping trash during the earthbound EVA on the later missions, although they do mention the smell of the accumulated trash during the final flightdays...
Sure, the moon would get a bit contaminated when they crashed the ascent stage afterwards, but the moon is (was) contaminated anyway so it wouldn't make much difference..
Anyone who knows why they didn't stow the trash in the ascent stage?
Geert.
Harald Kucharek - 25 May 2004 14:56 GMT >> days, the Progress supply ships were filled with garbage after unloading >> supplies and allowed to burn up during re-entry. But even bi-monthly [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Anyone who knows why they didn't stow the trash in the ascent stage? Because they did ;-) The ascent stage was filled with trash (e.g. the docking probe [except A14]) and other stuff.
Harald
Doug... - 25 May 2004 17:17 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Because they did ;-) The ascent stage was filled with trash (e.g. the > docking probe [except A14]) and other stuff. Yep -- they kept all the biological wastes (read: feces) for study (yuck!), but they had big bags that they put the used food bags, old towels, and other such trash into, and then loaded those bags into the ascent stages before they let them go. They also dropped a bunch of trash accumulated in the LMs out onto the lunar surface during the final depress, at the same time that they dumped the PLSSes. Hell, they even jettisoned the armrests that were used in the LM during descent. Anything that would reduce liftoff weight, so they could bring home more rocks.
Doug dvandorn@NOSPAM.mn.rr.com
Pat Flannery - 25 May 2004 18:37 GMT >Yep -- they kept all the biological wastes (read: feces) for study >(yuck!) NASA medical research doctor's T-shirt: "Neil and Buzz went to the Moon, and all I got was this lousy bag of sh.t...." :-)
Pat
OM - 25 May 2004 19:47 GMT >NASA medical research doctor's T-shirt: "Neil and Buzz went to the Moon, >and all I got was this lousy bag of sh.t...." :-) ...Damn. Pat beat me to that one.
OM
 Signature "No bastard ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr
Pat Flannery - 26 May 2004 07:37 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >...Damn. Pat beat me to that one. And in Mary's case it could be a bag of dog sh.t even...
Pat
OM - 25 May 2004 20:04 GMT > Hell, they even jettisoned the armrests that were used in the LM during descent. >Anything that would reduce liftoff weight, so they could bring home more >rocks. ...Which begs the question: is there a checklist of what was jettisoned on each mission, just so when we go back we can have another whacko conspiracy theory generated when the lists and the bag contents don't match :-)
OM
 Signature "No bastard ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr
Greg D. Moore (Strider) - 25 May 2004 20:38 GMT > > Hell, they even jettisoned the armrests that were used in the LM during descent. > >Anything that would reduce liftoff weight, so they could bring home more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another whacko conspiracy theory generated when the lists and the bag > contents don't match :-) Except of course the conspiracy goes so deep that the even prepositioned the bags on the moon.
> OM Harald Kucharek - 25 May 2004 21:21 GMT >>>Hell, they even jettisoned the armrests that were used in the LM during > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Except of course the conspiracy goes so deep that the even prepositioned the > bags on the moon. So one day we will see the Loonies asking for a C-14 dating and a DNA analysis of the shitbags on the Moon... But we already know: This will proof nuthin'. It could be faked.
Harald
Jonathan Silverlight - 25 May 2004 22:41 GMT >> Except of course the conspiracy goes so deep that the even >>prepositioned the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >analysis of the shitbags on the Moon... But we already know: This will >proof nuthin'. It could be faked. I'd be very surprised if either test proved anything after several decades on the Moon. How _would_ you authenticate this stuff if you wanted to sell it on Ebay?
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Doug... - 25 May 2004 22:43 GMT > >> Except of course the conspiracy goes so deep that the even > >>prepositioned the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > decades on the Moon. How _would_ you authenticate this stuff if you > wanted to sell it on Ebay? I just *really* wonder about anyone who would be willing to buy a bag of someone's sh.t on eBay under *any* circumstances -- even if a) it was excreted by one of the 12 moonwalkers, and b) had sat on the Moon for decades.
Doug dvandorn@NOSPAM.mn.rr.com
Doug... - 25 May 2004 22:33 GMT > > Hell, they even jettisoned the armrests that were used in the LM during descent. > >Anything that would reduce liftoff weight, so they could bring home more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another whacko conspiracy theory generated when the lists and the bag > contents don't match :-) Um, yeah, I believe there was. They had jett bag stowage checklists, I'm sure of it. And they debriefed on what they jettisoned at the time, during the missions. At least I recall such vocal debriefs, both during the missions and on the transcripts.
Doug dvandorn@NOSPAM.mn.rr.com
Rusty B - 25 May 2004 21:22 GMT > > Anyone who knows why they didn't stow the trash in the ascent stage? > > Because they did ;-) The ascent stage was filled with trash (e.g. the > docking probe [except A14]) and other stuff. Before there were female crew members, who reminded the astronauts to take out the trash? ;-)
- Rusty Barton
Doug... - 25 May 2004 22:34 GMT > > > Anyone who knows why they didn't stow the trash in the ascent stage? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Before there were female crew members, who reminded the astronauts > to take out the trash? ;-) Why, Houston did, of course.
Doug dvandorn@NOSPAM.mn.rr.com
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