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Space Forum / Space History / April 2004



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Sub Down - one for Derek Lyons

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Jonathan Silverlight - 21 Apr 2004 21:56 GMT
Way off topic, but I can't resist the chance to ask Derek if he's seen
"Sub Down", which was shown on TV here last night and I'm watching on
video. It's directed by Alan Smithee, which is a very bad sign :-) and
the captain has just said "submerge the ship". Aren't they usually
referred to as boats?
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Derek Lyons - 22 Apr 2004 17:27 GMT
Jonathan Silverlight <jsilverlight@spam.merseia.fsnet.co.uk.invalid>
wrote:
>Way off topic, but I can't resist the chance to ask Derek if he's seen
>"Sub Down", which was shown on TV here last night and I'm watching on
>video. It's directed by Alan Smithee, which is a very bad sign :-)

I usually avoid such movies like the plague.

>and the captain has just said "submerge the ship". Aren't they usually
>referred to as boats?

'Boat' is a slang term, not the official one.  (It's widespread enough
that you could easily make the mistake of thinking it official
though.)

D.
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OM - 22 Apr 2004 18:35 GMT
>'Boat' is a slang term, not the official one.  (It's widespread enough
>that you could easily make the mistake of thinking it official
>though.)

...However, in my NROTC classes, we were told specifically that "boat"
referred to a sub, and "ships" never went below the surface unless
they were being sunk, and that failure to remember the distinction
could instantly and painfully rile the ires of any antisocial
submariner within earshot. Sounded f.cking official to me :-)

                OM

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Pat Flannery - 22 Apr 2004 18:33 GMT
>...However, in my NROTC classes, we were told specifically that "boat"
>referred to a sub, and "ships" never went below the surface unless
>they were being sunk, and that failure to remember the distinction
>could instantly and painfully rile the ires of any antisocial
>submariner within earshot. Sounded f.cking official to me :-)

This sounds like a question for The Old Gunny on History Channel's "Mail
Call".
If he can get a gold record for his song "This is my rifle; this is my
gun." he can probably figure out this one too....CAN'T HE, MAGGOT?

Pat
Jonathan Silverlight - 22 Apr 2004 19:08 GMT
>>'Boat' is a slang term, not the official one.  (It's widespread enough
>>that you could easily make the mistake of thinking it official
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>could instantly and painfully rile the ires of any antisocial
>submariner within earshot. Sounded f.cking official to me :-)

Years ago I was told that the distinction was that a ship carried a
boat. The submarine in this story is carrying a little research
submersible (and what's the difference between a submarine and a
submersible ?) so does that make it a ship?
Derek Lyons - 22 Apr 2004 23:18 GMT
Jonathan Silverlight <jsilverlight@spam.merseia.fsnet.co.uk.invalid>
wrote:

>Years ago I was told that the distinction was that a ship carried a
>boat. The submarine in this story is carrying a little research
>submersible (and what's the difference between a submarine and a
>submersible ?) so does that make it a ship?

Submarines carry various methods of dealing death and destruction,
submersibles carry scientists.

D.
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Pat Flannery - 23 Apr 2004 08:46 GMT
>Submarines carry various methods of dealing death and destruction,
>submersibles carry scientists.

It's more involved than that; historically, the different names go back
to the days of the old pre-Holland and early Lake boats- like Lake's
"Protector".
The submarine was designed to spend long times underwater, and tended to
be biased for that mission in it's hull design; the submersible was
basically designed as a surface vessel that could lower itself
underwater when the need arose (Lake's "Protector" was a submersible; it
was designed to roll along the seabed on wheels, rather than do much
maneuvering under power while submerged), and generally descended
underwater or surfaced on an even keel- after taking on or blowing
ballast- rather than angling itself downwards or upwards under power as
a submarine does.  The submersible's hull was biased for surface
operations in its hydrodynamic design, and it carried a large volume of
ballast tankage so that its reserve buoyancy put it quite high out of
the water when it was surfaced, but the vessel was only capable of slow
movements while submerged and tended to simply sink toward the bottom or
up rise from it, rather than engage in much underwater movement. The
submersible tended to use the sea to hide itself from the enemy just
before or after an attack, rather than as a means of stealthily stalking
its prey. The line between the two types got blurred fairly quickly,
(W.W. I and II subs tended to spend a lot of their time on the surface)
and nowadays a submersible is a small underwater vehicle that is
transported to it's destination by another vessel (either surface or
submarine) for it's operations. But their limited underwater endurance,
low underwater speed, and general movement in the vertical over
horizontal plane still harken back to the original meaning of the word.

Pat
Pat Flannery - 23 Apr 2004 07:43 GMT
> Years ago I was told that the distinction was that a ship carried a
> boat. The submarine in this story is carrying a little research
> submersible (and what's the difference between a submarine and a
> submersible ?) so does that make it a ship?

They were running a history of the Royal Navy on History Channel a
couple of days back, and IIRC, in the R.N. the distinction between boat
and ship was based on tonnage; if we followed a similar convention, then
one can see what happened.. our original subs were small, so they were
referred to as boats...but the name stuck as they grew larger and larger.

Pat
OM - 23 Apr 2004 09:01 GMT
>Years ago I was told that the distinction was that a ship carried a
>boat. The submarine in this story is carrying a little research
>submersible (and what's the difference between a submarine and a
>submersible ?) so does that make it a ship?

...A submersible does not necessarily mean manuverable under water,
just something that can go beneath the surface. By definition, a
diving bell is arguably as much a submersible as a sub. One arguement
I've heard is that "submarine" is used for military underwater
vehicles, while "submersible" is used to described civilian underwater
vehicles.

                OM

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for     | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb bastard die for his country."    | Human O-Ring Society

    - General George S. Patton, Jr

 
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