Sorry for this messy posting:-(
Sorry, they
(http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947#)
won't respond to queries about what they have. Query was sent, 3+weeks, no
response. Really have no Idea if it is a Compound or NOT! MAY or NOT be,
but it is simple enough to find out.
What I find so exciting is that here we have ((((Eploding)))) Oxygen, that
produces an Oxyidixer, and ((((Exploding Fuel)))) (aluminum, maybe
hydrogen) Fuel, that produces Fuel. Cool, chemical energy just went
way up, now it can start to add extra...
What's wrong with that?
Craig Fink
My part of the conversation so far is (things i've written on the subject):
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> particles of aluminum metal. If such particles were exposed to air,
> they would oxidize very quickly.
Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
AlAr.
http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
The electrically exploded wire would condense as small particles,
with lots of surface area, maybe enough for one argon atom to
stick for each 10 to 100 aluminum atoms. Not a compound as such,
but a material containing both, as said in the patent.
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Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
AlAr.
http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.

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AlAr - Aluminum-Argon Fuel?
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Date: Mon, Mar 6 2006 6:42 am
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Ar not Ag.
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:34:41 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:
> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
> AlAr.
> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
> Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.

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From: Craig Fink - view profile
Date: Mon, Mar 6 2006 6:50 am
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:42:10 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:
> Ar not Ag.
>> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>> AlAr.
>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>> Preflably,
Preferably (Oh, gees, proof reader must be on vacation)
>> from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.

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ArAg - Argon-Aluminum Fuel?
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From: Craig Fink - view profile
Date: Mon, Mar 6 2006 7:59 am
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On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:50:35 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:
>> Ar not Ag.
>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:34:41 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:
>>> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>>> AlAr.
>>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>>> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>>> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>>> Preflably,
> Preferably (Oh, gees, proof reader must be on vacation)
>>> from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>>> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
Should be written ArAl, not AlAr
Diatomic ArAl has a low enthalpy bond of 5.34 ±0.78 kJ/mol
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ar/enth.html

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From: Damon Hill - view profile
Date: Tues, Mar 7 2006 3:30 am
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Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
> AlAr.
> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
> Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
The wonder is that argon would form a compound with anything. It
seems almost as inert as helium.
--Damon
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From: Craig Fink - view profile
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 03:30:36 -0600, Damon Hill wrote:
> Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
> news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
>> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>> AlAr.
>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>> Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
> The wonder is that argon would form a compound with anything. It seems
> almost as inert as helium.
Diatomic ArAl has a low enthalpy bond of 5.34 ±0.78 kJ/mol
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ar/enth.html
Yeah, it's interesting that one of the known atoms that Argon can bond to
is Helium. ArHe, both noble gases.
http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~lundell/compchem/laskemfi/HArF.pdf
In 2000, scientist were able to make HArF, but it decomposes above 27
Kelvin.
The ArAl, is made at elevated temperatures. Essentially, electrically
exploding an Aluminum wire in a dense (?cold?) Argon atmosphere. I wonder
if the technique could better be described as creating an Aluminum plasma
in a dense Argon atmosphere. Which makes me wonder if it's possible to
make other compounds with the high temperature plasma technique. As the
plasma cools, the atoms have nothing to attach to but Argon.
Xenon can form oxides XeO3 and XeO4. XeO3 melts/explodes 25C, and XeO4 at
-36C. Hummm, an oxidizer for a cryogenic solid rocket?

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Date: Wed, Mar 8 2006 8:57 am
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:16:46 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 03:30:36 -0600, Damon Hill wrote:
>> Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
>>> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>>> AlAr.
>>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>>> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>>> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>>> Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>>> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
>> The wonder is that argon would form a compound with anything. It seems
>> almost as inert as helium.
> Diatomic ArAl has a low enthalpy bond of 5.34 ±0.78 kJ/mol
> http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ar/enth.html
> Yeah, it's interesting that one of the known atoms that Argon can bond to
> is Helium. ArHe, both noble gases.
> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~lundell/compchem/laskemfi/HArF.pdf
> In 2000, scientist were able to make HArF, but it decomposes above 27
> Kelvin.
> The ArAl, is made at elevated temperatures. Essentially, electrically
> exploding an Aluminum wire in a dense (?cold?) Argon atmosphere. I wonder
> if the technique could better be described as creating an Aluminum plasma
> in a dense Argon atmosphere. Which makes me wonder if it's possible to
> make other compounds with the high temperature plasma technique. As the
> plasma cools, the atoms have nothing to attach to but Argon.
Better yet, create the plasma in a super cooled cryogenic Argon bath,
where the Argon bath is a large enough heat sink to absorb all the energy
input used to turn the other substance into a plasma. This way whatever
Argon compound that is created has a better chance of not decomposing
due to elevated temperatures.
CAr4 would be nice, if it were possible.
> Xenon can form oxides XeO3 and XeO4. XeO3 melts/explodes 25C, and XeO4 at
> -36C. Hummm, an oxidizer for a cryogenic solid rocket?

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From: Ian Stirling - view profile
Date: Thurs, Mar 9 2006 5:26 pm
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Craig Fink <WeBeG...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 03:30:36 -0600, Damon Hill wrote:
>>> Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
>>> news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
>>>> Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>>>> AlAr.
>>>> http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>>>> Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>>>> propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>>>> Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>>>> exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
<snip>
> Better yet, create the plasma in a super cooled cryogenic Argon bath,
> where the Argon bath is a large enough heat sink to absorb all the energy
> input used to turn the other substance into a plasma. This way whatever
> Argon compound that is created has a better chance of not decomposing
> due to elevated temperatures.
Would that work?
Surely you'd get very poor yield - the exploder element would be
confined by the liquid. (I don't off-hand know the compressability of
cryogenic xenon)
ISTM, you want a hot exploding plasma, where free atoms/microdroplets of
Al (Presumably the amount of energy you pump in to a given mass will set
the size) interact with Xe, while having as small as possible a chance
of interacting with Al.
Hmm.
I wonder what happens if you hit xenon with a really heavy ion beam of
Al.
How you'd do this would be interesting.
Perhaps a supersonic flow of cryogenic xenon, with the beam impinging on
it.
It'd be nice, as this would be a continuous process.
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From: gco...@eagle.ca - view profile
Date: Wed, Mar 8 2006 12:13 pm
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Damon Hill wrote:
> Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
> news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
> > Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
> > AlAr.
> > http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
> > Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
> > propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
> > Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
> > exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
> The wonder is that argon would form a compound with anything. It
> seems almost as inert as helium.
The electrically exploded wire would condense as small particles,
with lots of surface area, maybe enough for one argon atom to
stick for each 10 to 100 aluminum atoms. Not a compound as such,
but a material containing both, as said in the patent.
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
Boron: internal combustion, nuclear cachet http://tinyurl.com/4xt8g
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From: Craig Fink - view profile
Date: Thurs, Mar 9 2006 10:42 am
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:13:00 -0800, gcowan wrote:
> Damon Hill wrote:
>> Craig Fink <WeBeG...@GMail.Com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2006.03.06.12.34.40.267422@GMail.Com:
>> > Aviation Week artical talked about Boron-gel, better yet Aluminum-Argon
>> > AlAr.
>> > http://www.navytechmatch.org/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5597947
>> > Interesting, Aluminum-Argon, after the argon falls off (very nice
>> > propellent), the aluminum is available to be burned with oxygen.
>> > Preflably, from the atmosphere. I wonder if the reation AlAr-> Al Ar is
>> > exothermic or endothermic? Exothermic would be nice, adding energy.
>> The wonder is that argon would form a compound with anything. It
>> seems almost as inert as helium.
> The electrically exploded wire would condense as small particles,
> with lots of surface area, maybe enough for one argon atom to
> stick for each 10 to 100 aluminum atoms. Not a compound as such,
> but a material containing both, as said in the patent.
Yeah, your right. It does say material not compound. It also says it's
nonconductive. So, the argon is somehow tying up the electron that in the
aluminums outer shell.
I wonder what the mass ratio of aluminum wire in to aluminum-argon powder
out is.

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Craig Fink - 29 Mar 2006 13:44 GMT
> Sorry for this messy posting:-(
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Craig Fink
Messy posting replaced with:-)
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/O/enth.html
The Diatomic enthalpy bond for O=O is 498 kJ/mol
The Diatomic enthalpy bond for O-H is 427 kJ/mol
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/H/enth.html
The Diatomic enthalpy bond for H-H is 439 kJ/mol
So, to burn O2 and H2, the O=O bond must be broken and the H-H bond must
be broken before H-O-H can be formed. Breaking the bonds takes energy,
while recombining into H2O produces more energy that it took to break the
bonds.
O2 -> O + O - energy (breaking bond)
H2 -> H + H - energy (breaking bond)
H + H + O -> H2O + energy (bonding)
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Xe/enth.html
The Diatomic enthalpy bond for O=Xe is only 36 kJ/mol
Two compounds of Xe and O can be formed, XeO3 and XeO4. In the compound
XeO4, the higher energy O=O bond is replaced with a much, much lower
energy bond of O=Xe. Only 36 kJ/mol vs Oxygen's normal O=O bond of 498
kJ/Mol.
XeO4 -> Xe + O + O + O + O - energy (breaking bond)
O + O -> O2 + energy (bonding)
Or, the total reaction
XeO4 -> Xe + 2O2 + energy
So, the oxidizer XeO4 has more energy than O2 in that breaking the bond
takes much less energy. Essentially, an order of magnitude less energy to
break the bond.
On the negative side, the low bonding energy means that XeO4 becomes
unstable with elevated temperature. Elevated meaning "room" temperature,
the thermal energy is enough to break the Xe-O bond, the Oxygen combines
with itself and releases lots of energy. Also, it's a solid and explosive.
To be useful, something would have to be used to moderate the spontaneous
reaction that occurs at room temperature. I would think that mixing it
with liquid oxygen might work, maybe a gel of LOX-XeO4.
On the Fuel side of the equation and Argon.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ar/enth.html
The Diatomic Ar-Al has a low enthalpy bond of 5 kJ/mol
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Al/enth.html
Diatomic Al-Al has an enthalpy bond of 133 kJ/mol
Aluminum bonds with itself with an energy of 133 kJ/mol, with Argon it's
only 5 kJ/mol. Again, an order of magnitude less energy to break the
bond.
Aluminum by itself as a fuel has it's own problems. Pure aluminum when
exposed to Oxygen in the atmosphere spontaneously forms a coating of
Aluminum-Oxide on the outer surface. The Aluminum-Oxide coating protecting
the rest of the Aluminum from oxidizing. So, as aluminum is ground into a
fine powder, and exposed to oxygen, part of the Aluminum is already
reacted. The ratio of Aluminum to Aluminum-Oxide would go down as the
aluminum is ground finer and finer. But if the Aluminum is bound to Argon,
instead of itself or Oxygen, then...
If it were possible to make ArH4, it would be the "Cat Meow" of fuels.
I would think the ArAl (or H2) fuel and XeO4 oxidizer would by far have
more energy that any other fuel/oxidizer combinations discussed on this
group in the past.

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raphfrk@netscape.net - 21 Apr 2006 01:50 GMT
Just, had a go at working out overall specific impulse (may have some
errors):
Oxygen production reaction
Xe04 -> Xe + 2O2
According to the wikipedia, it will explode at -35.9°C or above
According to wikipedia, its 643kJ/mol, so will go with that
Unless Ar + Al is extremely effective, I can't see it beating H2 for
effectiveness as a fuel.
H2+0.5*O2 -> 2H20 ( 242kj / mol ) (need 4 of these for every XeO4)
Total energy release for one mole of Xe04
643 + 4*242 = 1611 KJ
Mass of one mole of exhaust
Xe (131g)
8H (8g)
4O (64g)
Total = 203g
v = sqrt(2E/m) = (3222000/0.203) = 3984m/s => Isp = 406s
For the standard 2H + O reaction:
E = 242kJ/mol
mass of one mole of exhaust
2H (2)
0.5O2 (16)
Total = 18g
v = sqrt(2E/m) = 5185m/s -> Isp = 529 seconds
This means that it doesn't beat Hydrogen + oxygen as a fuel/oxidiser.
The problem is that the Xenon atom is to massive for the extra energy
provided.
Craig Fink - 28 Apr 2006 11:16 GMT
Yeah, your right. The Xenon more than doubles the mass.
So, if it could be used in an LOX gel, it might possibly be used to
vary thrust/isp of a particular LOX burning engine. Maybe filling the
bottom of the LOX tank with XeO4-LOX and the top with LOX.

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