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Space Forum / Space Flight / August 2003



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poor man's rocket

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Zoltan Szakaly - 13 Aug 2003 06:58 GMT
I wonder if I could feed an off the shelf jet engine with fuel and
oxidizer at a fuel rich mixture ratio and later add the rest of the
oxidizer to the exhaust afterburner.

I think this might work like a cheap rocket engine. Like when you try
to throw something together with off the shelf components, quick
dirty, cheap.

Zoltan
Ian Stirling - 14 Aug 2003 15:58 GMT
> I wonder if I could feed an off the shelf jet engine with fuel and
> oxidizer at a fuel rich mixture ratio and later add the rest of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to throw something together with off the shelf components, quick
> dirty, cheap.

There isn't really any point.
You end up with a rocket engine with very, very limited performance,
that's much heavier than standard.
There might be a very limited case for extending the altitude that it
will work at.

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http://inquisitor.i.am/    |  mailto:inquisitor@i.am |             Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"I meant, have you ploughed the ocean waves at all?" Colon gave him a cunning
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horses sink'                                       --  Terry Pratchett - Jingo

Christopher M. Jones - 19 Aug 2003 04:22 GMT
> I wonder if I could feed an off the shelf jet engine with fuel and
> oxidizer at a fuel rich mixture ratio and later add the rest of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to throw something together with off the shelf components, quick
> dirty, cheap.

Despite the hype, rockets are less complex than jet engines, much
less complex.  A jet engine for a large aircraft (fighter jet or
jumbo jet) is itself the size of a large automobile, but a rocket
engine with the same thrust performance could easily sit on your
coffee table without straining it much.

Here's an example, the Pratt & Whitney model F100* jet engine,
designed for fighter jets and the engine which powers the F-15
and F-16C (among other aircraft) weighs 1900 kg (4100 lbs) and
outputs 145 kN (32,500 lb-f) maximum thrust.  For a thrust to
mass ratio of 78 N/kg.  Meanwhile, there's the X-405* LOX /
Kerosene rocket engine, of a decidedly older vintage (it
powered some of the stages of the Vanguard rocket), which weighs
191 kg and outputs 135 kN maximum thrust.  For a thrust to mass
ratio of 707 N/kg, nearly 10x that of the jet engine (and this is
for a rocket engine which is over 3 decades older than the jet).

Building rockets with jet engine thrust is no simple task, but
they can be bought at a reasonable price.  And, yes, they can be
made without too much difficulty either.  More importantly,
building a rocket engine designed not to maximize the thrust to
weight ratio as much as possible but simply to *exceed* the
exceedingly poor thrust to weight ratios (by comparison) of  jet
engines is a much easier task.  Which is why nobody even thinks
of using jet engines as you describe, it's simply not worth it.

An F-100 jet engine costs around $4.5 million dollars, an
NK-33 rocket engine costs around $2 million dollars but has
*eleven* times the thrust and weighs 1/3 less.

(*) http://www.pratt-whitney.com/3a/html/products_f100.html
(+) http://www.astronautix.com/engines/x405.htm
Zoltan Szakaly - 20 Aug 2003 06:59 GMT
snip snip ...
> An F-100 jet engine costs around $4.5 million dollars, an
> NK-33 rocket engine costs around $2 million dollars but has
> *eleven* times the thrust and weighs 1/3 less.
>
> (*) http://www.pratt-whitney.com/3a/html/products_f100.html
> (+) http://www.astronautix.com/engines/x405.htm

Now we are getting somewhere.

The comparison between the two is like this:

Jet engine:
Isp= 5,000 Thrust to weight: 10

Rocket engine:
Isp= 350 Thrust to weight: 100

There are clearly variations but these are somewhat representative
numbers. The jet engine's weight limits the mass ratio that can be
accomplished. Here I will try to compute performance for both.

If I start with a 100 ton take off mass, the rocket would have a 150
tons of thrust and a 1.5 ton engine. The payload, fuel tanks,
structure would limit the mass fraction to between 0.88 and 0.95 so
the velocity increment achieved would be between 7,280 and 10,300
m/sec

The air breathing engine based vehicle would have a mass fraction of
between 0.73 and 0.8 and the velocity increment would be 64,222 to
78,942 m/sec

Clearly the air breathing engine wins. Of course I assumed no air drag
here.

I want to come clear here, the reason I am so interested in this
because I have an engine that has a high Isp (over 4,000) and is light
weight and cheap so it can achieve a thrust to weight of 100. (I
realize that thrust is force and weight is mass, I am using the terms
loosely here, I am dividing pounds by pounds) I am working on the
development of a flying car but I am hoping to also use the engine as
a first stage engine to put payloads into orbit.

I think the air breather wins no matter what somebody just needs to
have enough balls to build one and fly it.

Zoltan
toby peers - 21 Aug 2003 11:09 GMT
"Zoltan Szakaly" <zoltanccc@aol.com> wrote in message > I want to come clear
here, the reason I am so interested in this
> because I have an engine that has a high Isp (over 4,000) and is light
> weight and cheap so it can achieve a thrust to weight of 100. (I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Zoltan

I've posted an idea for a peroxide powered turbo-prop vtol spaceplane on the
halfbakery website at:

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/propeller_2frocket_20plane

I've included a link to an aerobatic plane that can fly vertically in
sustained flight (someone else has included a link to a biplane equivalent),
a link to Glen Olson's pogo page and a link to Armadillo Aerospace but i
couldn't find a link to a self standing, simple explanation of a 'walter
style' peroxide turbine. Does anyone know of a site which I could include a
link to?

Toby
gg - 30 Aug 2003 21:42 GMT
> I've posted an idea for a peroxide powered turbo-prop vtol spaceplane on the
> halfbakery website at:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> style' peroxide turbine. Does anyone know of a site which I could include a
> link to?

I found a link to a rocket-turbine car. The engine was a gas-generator
powered turbine drive called a turbonique.

http://www.almar.easynet.be/turbonique.htm

Does anyone know if anyone ever tried puting one of these engines in a
plane (either to power a propeller or a ducted fan)?

> Toby
Earl Colby Pottinger - 21 Aug 2003 15:53 GMT
zoltanccc@aol.com (Zoltan Szakaly) :

> Jet engine:
> Isp= 5,000 Thrust to weight: 10
>  
> Rocket engine:
> Isp= 350 Thrust to weight: 100

Rocket system ok but does not account for gravity losses or air drag.

> There are clearly variations but these are somewhat representative
> numbers. The jet engine's weight limits the mass ratio that can be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the velocity increment achieved would be between 7,280 and 10,300
> m/sec

Jet Design mass ratio ok.  Lets assume it lifts at .5 G away from Earth, the
mass ratio is not going to change much with the claimed ISP

> The air breathing engine based vehicle would have a mass fraction of
> between 0.73 and 0.8 and the velocity increment would be 64,222 to
> 78,942 m/sec
>  
> Clearly the air breathing engine wins. Of course I assumed no air drag
> here.

Really, after 100 seconds if your jet works as claimed if you went straight
up you would be at 49 kilometers where no jet engine would work well.  But
your speed would be only 500 meters per second, you still need those rockets,
but now you mass ratio is far worse.

> I want to come clear here, the reason I am so interested in this
> because I have an engine that has a high Isp (over 4,000) and is light
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> development of a flying car but I am hoping to also use the engine as
> a first stage engine to put payloads into orbit.

Try for the flying car, it should always be flying relatively low, but I
think you need to fly it (your engine design) to see the real results.

> I think the air breather wins no matter what somebody just needs to
> have enough balls to build one and fly it.

I think you need to do a lot more math modelling, it just can't work once you
climb high enought, and you can't get the speed if you fly low enough.

> Zoltan

             Earl Colby Pottinger

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Zoltan Szakaly - 22 Aug 2003 02:29 GMT
>Earl Colby Pottinger <earlcp@idirect.com> wrote in message
>
>Really, after 100 seconds if your jet works as claimed if you went straight
>up you would be at 49 kilometers where no jet engine would work well.
But
>your speed would be only 500 meters per second, you still need those rockets,
>but now you mass ratio is far worse.
>
>news:<vk9n7sjr8at3d2@corp.supernews.com>...
>
>               Earl Colby Pottinger

My plan is to start vertically and then pitch over to say 45 degrees
and sustain 4G acceleration for about 70 seconds. This gets me near
mach 8, or 2,700 m/s speed. Somewhere between mach 6 and 8 I close the
air inlets and use oxidizer injection. (Here we are no longer talking
about a turbine engine, the vehicle under discussion is my ramjet
based SSTO) After mach 8 I clearly use the ramjet in pure rocket mode.

The SR71 uses turbines but it switches to ramjet mode at some
speed/altitude.

My "poor man's rocket" would simply be a suborbital spaceplane that
uses turbine jet engines with air first and oxidizer injection later.

Zoltan
 
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