Hydrogen to the Moon
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Alan Erskine - 22 Nov 2003 08:59 GMT There's gobs of O2 on the Moon (~40% by mass of the Moon's surface is oxygen), but hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are a long way from an economical-to-get-to equatorial Lunar base, so Lunar ice may not be a viable option in the short term) and also needed for rocket propellant.
What is the best way of getting hydrogen to the Moon? Liquid H? Methane? Both of these are cryogenic and difficult to store for any length of time, especially LH2. What about hydrogen peroxide or even ammonia? Ammonia solves two problems as it would provide hydrogen for water and propellant and also provides nitrogen for crew breathing. Ammonia is both _fairly_ stable and dense when compared to either methane or hydrogen and can be stored in simple plastic tanks (protected from the Sun's heat).
What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases?
-- Alan Erskine alanterskine(at)hotmail.com
Iraq, America's new Vietnam
Henry Spencer - 23 Nov 2003 05:50 GMT >...hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are >a long way from an economical-to-get-to equatorial Lunar base, so Lunar ice >may not be a viable option in the short term) ? It is not significantly harder to get to the lunar poles than to the lunar equator.
>What is the best way of getting hydrogen to the Moon? Liquid H? Methane? >Both of these are cryogenic and difficult to store for any length of time, >especially LH2. What about hydrogen peroxide or even ammonia? Peroxide's hydrogen content per unit mass is about half that of water's. Not a useful approach unless you want peroxide for other reasons (which you might).
The absolute champion for maximum hydrogen content per unit mass in a non-cryogenic substance is probably one of the methylboranes, but they're fairly obnoxious chemicals and the boron content is pretty useless.
Next is a tie between a chemical you don't want anything to do with -- beryllium hydride -- and one that's eminently reasonable: propane. To get the hydrogen out, burn the propane and electrolyze the water.
Ammonia is not quite as good as propane, but very close. It has the advantage of carrying nitrogen too, and you can burn it without getting lots of CO2.
>What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases? Alas, the ammonia molecule is quite stable and doesn't come apart easily. It will decompose if you get it very hot, e.g. by running it through an electric arc, preferably at low pressure where decomposition is favored. But that's pretty energy-intensive.
You can burn it in oxygen, or with difficulty in air, but then you've got to get the hydrogen out of the resulting water, which again is energy-intensive.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
G. R. L. Cowan - 23 Nov 2003 13:08 GMT Henry Spencer included:
> >What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases? > > ... the ammonia molecule is quite stable and doesn't come apart easily. > It will decompose if you get it very hot, e.g. by running it through an > electric arc, ... That's much hotter than necessary (maybe you;re thinking of dinitrogen). If I recall correctly, at red heat (1,100 K) and room pressure the fraction of ammonia that is dissociated is more than half.
For non-cryogenic condensation of hydrogen, ammonia borane looks interesting (http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b15.pdf). Its pyrolysis yields hydrogen and boron nitride. While perhaps not immediately useful, BN can lie in heaps in vacuum without evaporating.
--- Graham Cowan http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc -- how cars gain nuclear cachet
Henry Spencer - 24 Nov 2003 19:43 GMT >> ... the ammonia molecule is quite stable and doesn't come apart easily. >> It will decompose if you get it very hot, e.g. by running it through an [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and room pressure the fraction of ammonia >that is dissociated is more than half. I didn't have detailed numbers on lower temperatures. That's better than I'd expected.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
Herman Rubin - 23 Nov 2003 20:37 GMT >>...hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are >>a long way from an economical-to-get-to equatorial Lunar base, so Lunar ice >>may not be a viable option in the short term)
>? It is not significantly harder to get to the lunar poles than to the >lunar equator.
>>What is the best way of getting hydrogen to the Moon? Liquid H? Methane? >>Both of these are cryogenic and difficult to store for any length of time, >>especially LH2. What about hydrogen peroxide or even ammonia?
>Peroxide's hydrogen content per unit mass is about half that of water's. >Not a useful approach unless you want peroxide for other reasons (which >you might).
>The absolute champion for maximum hydrogen content per unit mass in a >non-cryogenic substance is probably one of the methylboranes, but they're >fairly obnoxious chemicals and the boron content is pretty useless.
>Next is a tie between a chemical you don't want anything to do with -- >beryllium hydride -- and one that's eminently reasonable: propane. >To get the hydrogen out, burn the propane and electrolyze the water. I think boron hydride would do a little better, at more than 21% hydrogen for B2H6. I do not know how easy that is to handle.
This problem also arises for the use of hydrogen on Earth. Except for liquid hydrogen, which is quite low density, they highest proportion of hydrogen per unit mass is methane, about 25%. The other hydrocarbons do quite well, with gasoline being about 16%. Propane is about 18.2% hydrogen.
>Ammonia is not quite as good as propane, but very close. It has the >advantage of carrying nitrogen too, and you can burn it without getting >lots of CO2. This is correct.
>>What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases?
>Alas, the ammonia molecule is quite stable and doesn't come apart easily. >It will decompose if you get it very hot, e.g. by running it through an >electric arc, preferably at low pressure where decomposition is favored. >But that's pretty energy-intensive.
>You can burn it in oxygen, or with difficulty in air, but then you've >got to get the hydrogen out of the resulting water, which again is >energy-intensive.
 Signature This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Henry Spencer - 24 Nov 2003 19:39 GMT >>The absolute champion for maximum hydrogen content per unit mass in a >>non-cryogenic substance is probably one of the methylboranes, but... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >than 21% hydrogen for B2H6. I do not know how easy that >is to handle. B2H6 is a mild cryogen, so I think it's disqualified. The higher boranes do not give particularly good numbers. Adding a methyl group or two to diborane raises the boiling point without hurting the hydrogen content too much, hence my comment that one of those is probably best.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
Ian Stirling - 23 Nov 2003 17:22 GMT > There's gobs of O2 on the Moon (~40% by mass of the Moon's surface is > oxygen), but hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are > a long way from an economical-to-get-to equatorial Lunar base, so Lunar ice > may not be a viable option in the short term) and also needed for rocket Some very basic sums I did indicated that dropping balls of ice on the moon at near lunar escape velocity will not cause the majority of ice to escape. If you can create or find a deep shadowed crater and drop balls of ice into it then the majority of the ice will end up in the crater.
Water isn't a great way to transport H2.
Inquiring minds - 24 Nov 2003 04:12 GMT > There's gobs of O2 on the Moon (~40% by mass of the Moon's surface is > oxygen), but hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases? As an alternative.
Would polyethylene do the trick. It seems to have high hydrogen content, is a easy to handle solid and when burnt will also release some carbon, I guess in the form of CO2. It should have good radiation protection properties as well, although that is a guess.
Henry Spencer - 24 Nov 2003 19:42 GMT >Would polyethylene do the trick. It seems to have high hydrogen >content, is a easy to handle solid and when burnt will also release >some carbon, I guess in the form of CO2. If you want a durable solid rather than a liquid, it's probably about the best. The hydrogen content isn't as high as propane or ammonia, but it's not bad.
>It should have good radiation >protection properties as well, although that is a guess. Depends on what type of radiation you're interested in. In any case, on the lunar surface, lunar soil is the clear choice for radiation shielding.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
Alan Erskine - 24 Nov 2003 22:00 GMT Remember, it's got to be easy to 'get at' too. Electrolosys or similar would be best. Ammonia is used as a nitrogenous fertiliser so it releases nitrogen, but over a long period. Ammonia was also used as (from memory) propellant for the X-15 (?), so what were the combustion products created?
Nitrogen is also needed on the Moon for atmosphere, so I thought using something like ammonia would work (hydrogen _and_ ammonia), but...
-- Alan Erskine alanterskine(at)hotmail.com
Iraq, America's new Vietnam
Henry Spencer - 26 Nov 2003 03:12 GMT >...Ammonia is used as a nitrogenous fertiliser so it releases >nitrogen, but over a long period. Actually, the whole point of nitrogenous fertilizer is that it *doesn't* release nitrogen. There's lots of nitrogen around, in the air. What most plants need is nitrogen *compounds*, because they're not capable of making their own from nitrogen gas. Ideally you want nitrates, but ammonia is close enough for a lot of plants.
>Ammonia was also used as (from memory) >propellant for the X-15 (?), so what were the combustion products created? Correct, the definitive X-15 engine burned LOX/ammonia. Combustion products were mainly nitrogen and water.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
Eric Pederson - 25 Nov 2003 00:43 GMT > >Would polyethylene do the trick. It seems to have high hydrogen > >content, is a easy to handle solid and when burnt will also release [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > best. The hydrogen content isn't as high as propane or ammonia, but it's > not bad. One advantage of a durable material like this is that it tolerates hard landings quite well. The reduction in landing propellants by cutting the sacks of plastic pellets loose at 1000m or more might make back the difference.
OM - 26 Nov 2003 07:28 GMT >One advantage of a durable material like this is that it tolerates >hard landings quite well. The reduction in landing propellants by >cutting the sacks of plastic pellets loose at 1000m or more might >make back the difference. ...And it provides your own pre-landing celebratory confetti! Almost as good as the ticker-tape parade you'll probably get on your return home :-)
OM
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Alex Terrell - 24 Nov 2003 22:57 GMT > > There's gobs of O2 on the Moon (~40% by mass of the Moon's surface is > > oxygen), but hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > some carbon, I guess in the form of CO2. It should have good radiation > protection properties as well, although that is a guess. Now that the Chinese are talking about going to the moon, no doubt they'll use low cost plastic spaceships which can be disassociated once they've landed on the moon and failed to take off.
John Schilling - 25 Nov 2003 22:59 GMT >> There's gobs of O2 on the Moon (~40% by mass of the Moon's surface is >> oxygen), but hydrogen is still needed to make water (remember, the poles are >> a long way from an economical-to-get-to equatorial Lunar base, so Lunar ice >> may not be a viable option in the short term) and also needed for rocket >> propellant.
>> What is the best way of getting hydrogen to the Moon? Liquid H? Methane? >> Both of these are cryogenic and difficult to store for any length of time, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> What are the methods of separating ammonia into its constituent gases?
>As an alternative.
>Would polyethylene do the trick. It seems to have high hydrogen >content, is a easy to handle solid and when burnt will also release >some carbon, I guess in the form of CO2. Presuming you have an excess of oxygen with which to burn it, yes. And polyethylene is probably the best choice as a solid hydrogenous compound, which is why it sees use in various nuclear applications that call for maximum H (or low-Z generally) content in a solid package.
But if your goal is to ship hydrogen to the Moon, it's a pretty safe bet that the best way to do it is to ship hydrogen to the moon. The most conservative design for a hydrogen tank suitable for the trip, even accounting for LH2's low density and cryogenic nature, is going to be enormously lighter than the lightest batch of atoms suitable for binding H into a more tractable form. The best case for that latter strategy is that you get 25% hydrogen and 75% other stuff, which ratio will be approximately *reversed* for a simple tank of LH2.
And yes, most launchers have payload fairings that will hold even so fluffy a cargo as a full weight load of LH2.
Now, if you specifically *want* a little hydrogen and a lot of carbon/nitrogen/whatever on the Moon, you may find it worthwhile to ship methane/ammonia/whatever. But if it's hydrogen that is your bottleneck, you ship LH2.
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Peter Fairbrother - 26 Nov 2003 18:27 GMT Alan Erskine wrote
> Remember, it's got to be easy to 'get at' too. Electrolosys or similar > would be best. Ammonia is used as a nitrogenous fertiliser so it releases > nitrogen, but over a long period. In the conditions found in soil ammonia (or rather ammonium salts, ammonia itself would just evaporate) slowly reacts with oxygen in the air to form nitrates, which is what plants and so on like.
If you put too much nitrate on soil it washes away before the plants get a change to absorb it, as nitrates are usually very soluble in water. That's why "ammoniacal nitrogen" is considered a slower-release nitrogenous fertiliser than "nitrate nitrogen".
> Nitrogen is also needed on the Moon for atmosphere, so I thought using > something like ammonia would work (hydrogen _and_ ammonia), but... If it's to make water with Lunar O2, and some N2 is also needed, then just burn ammonia in the Lunar oxygen. If you do it right you'd get nitrogen, and water, and unburnt oxygen, and you could breathe the gas you made once it was cooled. No need to dissociate it into hydrogen and nitrogen first.
You would also get small quantities of oxides of nitrogen, the amount depending on the precise conditions. You should probably purify the product gas to get rid of them. Or, you could tailor the burning conditions to give a higher yield, and use them to make nitric acid, for explosives, perhaps?
Why else might you want H2 on the Moon? For rocket fuel? But getting it from earth is far too expensive, you'd be better off using almost anything else that was locally available once you have the production capacity - eg Lunar Al dust and Lunar LOX would probably be OK as a propellant.
> But if it's hydrogen that is your bottleneck, you ship LH2. Yes. Most sensible reply so far.
Is there any lack of nitrogen or carbon on the Moon?
 Signature Peter Fairbrother
Henry Spencer - 27 Nov 2003 00:00 GMT >Is there any lack of nitrogen or carbon on the Moon? Unfortunately, yes. The Moon is depleted in essentially anything which either is volatile (nitrogen), or combines readily with oxygen to form volatile compounds (carbon).
If the polar hydrogen deposits are in fact frozen volatiles from comet impacts, there's likely to be ammonia as well as water. It's just possible that there might be small amounts of hydrocarbons too.
 Signature MOST launched 30 June; first light, 29 July; 5arcsec | Henry Spencer pointing, 10 Sept; first science, early Oct; all well. | henry@spsystems.net
Paul F. Dietz - 04 Nov 2005 20:28 GMT > In the conditions found in soil ammonia (or rather ammonium salts, ammonia > itself would just evaporate) slowly reacts with oxygen in the air to form > nitrates, which is what plants and so on like. Actually, plants can absorb ammonium ions as well. And the conversion of ammonia to nitrate is done by nitrifying bacteria, not direct reaction with atmospheric oxygen.
> If you put too much nitrate on soil it washes away before the plants get a > change to absorb it, as nitrates are usually very soluble in water. That's > why "ammoniacal nitrogen" is considered a slower-release nitrogenous > fertiliser than "nitrate nitrogen". Ammonium salts are also very soluble in water, so that's not the cause of nitrate loss. The real cause is that clay, a significant component of soil, has negatively charged surfaces. This tends to bind positive ions.
Nitrate is also lost to denitrifying bacteria, which use it to oxidize organic matter.
Paul
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