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Multiple Engines???

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Charles Talleyrand - 14 Nov 2003 04:47 GMT
It seems that for rockets of multiple stages with only one fuel combination,
there is an interesting engineering decision.

Consider a two stage rocket where both stages burn the same fuel
combination.

You could use 1 engine for the upper stage, and 4-ish engines of the same
design for the lower stage.  The advantage is that you need only design one
engine type.  The disadvantage is that with 4-ish engines on the lower stage
you probably cannot tolerate an engine failure, and clearly not a catastrophic
failure.  Therefore you might lose a bit of reliability (which you might get back by spending the saved money on reliability).

Alternatively, you might use two different engine designs, a large
and a small.  This reduces the total part count while increasing the
total unique part count.  It probably increases cost and reliability.

Does anyone have any numbers that might help convince which is the
better path?  For example, is motor design cost a large part of the
overall vehicle cost?  Are most failures due to motor failures?  Is a
single large motor likely to weigh less and/or have a higher ISP than
a few smaller (but still large) motors?

Basically, anyone have any good arguments for either choice?

-Thanks
-Talleyrand

P.S.  Is it reasonably easy to tailor an engine to
atmosphere or vacuum operation with changes to the engine bell;
things like turbopump and cooling systems can remain the same?
Scott Hedrick - 15 Nov 2003 00:44 GMT
> It seems that for rockets of multiple stages with only one fuel combination,
> there is an interesting engineering decision.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> you probably cannot tolerate an engine failure, and clearly not a catastrophic
> failure.

Use five, one in the center, and design so that 3.5 or 4 at rated thrust
would be sufficient. Then, run 5 at 80-90%; if the center engine dies, the
others can be revved up. If an outer one dies, the opposite one can be cut
back for balance while the others rev up.
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Richard Schumacher - 15 Nov 2003 16:45 GMT
The important point is that propellant is cheap, cheap, cheap, and loss of a launcher is as expensive as all hell.

Best reliability calls for a completely reuseable single stage launcher, with engines of such a size and number that, if at any
time one of them must be shut down, the others throttle up to compensate, and you just keep going.  Use of two parallel stages is
a distant second because separating two vehicles at high speed in the atmosphere is not simple.  (A two parallel stage launcher
can be designed in which separation occurs outside the atmosphere; this does make the return of the first stage a bit more
difficult.)  Series staging is terrible because you take off without the second stage engines running, and thus without knowing
whether they will start and run correctly.  In any case there's little reason to use multiple different engine designs in one
vehicle.

The "reusable" part means that you can get all of the design and manufacturing errors out of every flight article before it goes
into service.  This also means that, in service, the chances of a catastrophic engine failure are negligible.
David Shannon - 19 Nov 2003 08:17 GMT
> Best reliability calls for a completely reuseable single stage launcher

 Alas, SSTO fuel fraction is prohibitive. 2STO typically uses 1/3 the
 propellant for a given payload, although vehicle empty weights are higher.

> separating two vehicles at high speed in the atmosphere is not simple.

 Shuttle does it every mission - SRBs from ET, ET from Orbiter.

> Series staging is terrible because you take off without the second stage engines running, and thus without knowing whether they will start and run correctly.

 Agreed

> In any case there's little reason to use multiple different engine designs in one vehicle.

 Servicing a single engine type is cheaper, if all other things are equal.
 4 on the booster and 1 on the Orbiter would support a single engine core,
 with differing bell arrangements.
Henry Spencer - 22 Nov 2003 06:38 GMT
>> Best reliability calls for a completely reuseable single stage launcher
>
>  Alas, SSTO fuel fraction is prohibitive.

Not necessarily.  When people have been pushed hard to try to build
expendable stages with that sort of fuel fraction, they have generally
succeeded.  And with 1960s technology, too, in some cases.

Reusability is the uncertain part, but that's true of TSTO systems too.

> 2STO typically uses 1/3 the
>  propellant for a given payload, although vehicle empty weights are higher.

However, since propellant costs are negligible, and empty mass and
complexity are the expensive parts...

>> separating two vehicles at high speed in the atmosphere is not simple.
>
>  Shuttle does it every mission - SRBs from ET, ET from Orbiter.

Note the words "in the atmosphere".  The ET separation occurs in vacuum.

The SRB separation may look simple but it isn't; NASA spent a lot of time
and money making sure it would work.

>  Servicing a single engine type is cheaper, if all other things are equal.
>  4 on the booster and 1 on the Orbiter would support a single engine core,
>  with differing bell arrangements.

In fact, NASA planned roughly that for the original two-reusable-stage
shuttle.
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David Shannon - 23 Nov 2003 12:59 GMT
> >  Alas, SSTO fuel fraction is prohibitive.
>
> Not necessarily.  When people have been pushed hard to try to build
> expendable stages with that sort of fuel fraction, they have generally
> succeeded.  And with 1960s technology, too, in some cases.

 Yup, true. I meant (thinking context evident) "RLV" SSTO. Apologies.
 Wings, heatshield, deorbit propellant - all dip hard into payload.

> > 2STO typically uses 1/3 the
> >  propellant for a given payload, although vehicle empty weights are higher.
>
> However, since propellant costs are negligible, and empty mass and
> complexity are the expensive parts...

 Hmmm. I misspoke. Try these numbers....

 Assume the VentureStar was built and worked as advertised.
 257 klb inert, 50 klb payload, 2313 klb LHOx, 8 Aerospikes, fuel fraction .883

 2 smaller editions, 3 Aerospikes on Booster, and 1 on Orbiter, have *together*
 198 klb inert, 50 klb payload, 927 klb LHOx, 4 Aerospikes, fuel fraction .824
 The only added complexity is crossfeed, already proven on the STS.

> The SRB separation may look simple but it isn't; NASA spent a lot of time
> and money making sure it would work.

 But work it does, yes?
Henry Spencer - 24 Nov 2003 22:55 GMT
>> >  Alas, SSTO fuel fraction is prohibitive.
>> Not necessarily.  When people have been pushed hard to try to build
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  Yup, true. I meant (thinking context evident) "RLV" SSTO. Apologies.
>  Wings, heatshield, deorbit propellant - all dip hard into payload.

Leaving off the wings helps considerably with that. :-)  Deorbit fuel is
not a big deal, but heatshield and landing systems are certainly an issue.
On the other hand, we *do* have better technology now than the guys who
built (e.g.) the Titan II first stage.

To me, it seems challenging, but far from hopeless, especially if you are
willing to innovate rather than just believing parametric models -- based
on orthodox past practice! -- for everything.  (How much does a horizontal
lander's landing gear weigh?  Orthodox parametric guesswork is 4%.  NASA
RLV parametric guesswork is 3%.  The B-58 landing gear, in 1957, was
1.5%... and the Voyager gear was 0.9%.)

>  Assume the VentureStar was built and worked as advertised.
>  257 klb inert, 50 klb payload, 2313 klb LHOx, 8 Aerospikes, fuel
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  fuel fraction .824
>  The only added complexity is crossfeed, already proven on the STS.

No, the added complexity is that now you have to develop three different
configurations -- two different vehicles plus the stack.  That has a
tendency to cost 2-3x as much as a single vehicle.  It also adds a bunch
more failure modes.

>> The SRB separation may look simple but it isn't; NASA spent a lot of time
>> and money making sure it would work.
>
>  But work it does, yes?

So far, yes. :-)  That doesn't mean it's a good idea, especially for a
new design that wants reliability and low development cost.
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David Shannon - 26 Nov 2003 07:55 GMT
> Leaving off the wings helps considerably with that.

 D'accord. I would be happy with a steerable parachute on a capsule -  
 as long as I can land back at the takeoff point ( R! L! V!, R! L! V!)

> >  2 smaller editions, 3 Aerospikes on Booster, and 1 on Orbiter, have
> >  *together* 198 klb inert, 50 klb payload, 927 klb LHOx, 4 Aerospikes,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No, the added complexity ... three different configurations ...  
> It also adds a bunch more failure modes.

 Yes indeed.
 So, don't use differing configurations in the stages.

 Consider the design path where the stages are externaly identical
 (eg General Dynamics "Triamese"
              http://www.abo.fi/~mlindroo/SpaceLVs/Slides/sld020.htm )

 This approach has theoretical limitations that are outweighed by
 practical advantages. You only have to spend skull-sweat on the orbiter -
 the boosters are simplified variants (no OMS, less TPS, etc, etc)
 I can live with the risks in stage separation.
Henry Spencer - 26 Nov 2003 16:11 GMT
>  Consider the design path where the stages are externaly identical
>  (eg General Dynamics "Triamese"...
>  This approach has theoretical limitations that are outweighed by
>  practical advantages. You only have to spend skull-sweat on the orbiter -
>  the boosters are simplified variants (no OMS, less TPS, etc, etc)

The practical problem with biamese and triamese is that almost anything
you do to simplify the boosters starts you off down the slippery slope of
building two different vehicles.  It's very hard to stop that.

Just leaving systems out looks easy, but often it means a lot of extra
engineering to assess what *happens* when you leave those systems out,
and what drives development cost is not materials but engineering effort.
Later on, when weight is excessive or there's a bit of a performance
shortfall, well, we're already building two different configurations, so
we'll just make them a little *more* different...

Biamese or triamese is a win only if the boosters are the *same* as the
orbiter.  Same TPS; if it doesn't get as hot, that's nice.  Same OMS;
okay, we can leave its tanks empty on the boosters.  Same systems, all of
them.  Maybe we fill the boosters' cargo bays with tanks, but if so, any
permanent fittings we need to add go in the orbiters too.  It takes very
strong engineering leadership to make this work.
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George William Herbert - 26 Nov 2003 21:41 GMT
>>  Consider the design path where the stages are externaly identical
>>  (eg General Dynamics "Triamese"...
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>permanent fittings we need to add go in the orbiters too.  It takes very
>strong engineering leadership to make this work.

I would pushback from that some.  But the sentiment is clearly
thinking smart.

If you're trying to do highly commonal biamese/triamese, I would
lay down some groundrules:
1) Same airframe structure.  That means same parts, same holes,
same brackets, the whole nine yards.
2) Same TPS, per Henry.
3) Same systems for power, control, guidance, etc.
4) Same mechanisms (control surfaces, doors, gear, etc).
5) Same wiring harness.
6) Same main engines powerhead; a different nozzle is acceptable
between the orbital and booster models, but one should be able to
put a box over the nozzle end and tape cover any other identifying
markings and stump a tech on whether it's the long or short nozzle
model engine.

I don't particularly mind leaving a podded OMS system off a booster
or sticking modular tanks (or, a flyback system) in a booster's cargo
bay area.  I agree with Henry that if you put any dedicated
mountings for those in the cargo bay, it should be fleetwide.

Basically... there should be two sets of things.  The Airframe,
which is structures and systems which are common, and those should
be *common*... the fitout for changing one model into the other
model should be not significantly more than normal minor overhaul.
And then modular equipment sets that change between the two
missions (or more, if you have low/hi/orbital rather than
booster/orbital).  All the interfaces need to be common,
and you need to enforce on the design team (and ideally on
the operations team) that airframes are not going to be
shoehorned into either role.  Establishing that in the
operations and maintenance schedule model would be great.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Derek Lyons - 27 Nov 2003 01:09 GMT
>and you need to enforce on the design team (and ideally on
>the operations team) that airframes are not going to be
>shoehorned into either role.

That's going to be difficult-to-impossible to enforce.  Any self
respecting scheduler/planner is going to grab a vehicle already in
configuration x in order to fly a mission with requirements x.  His
boss, and his bosses boss are gonna give him attaboys for saving the
manhours.  And they'll be right in doing so,  over years and decades
of operation, those little savings add up.

>Establishing that in the operations and maintenance schedule
>model would be great.

Why?  You waste manhours, and enforce slow degredation of the vehicles
by doing so.  Other than academic satisfaction, there is utterly no
need for routine conversion between configurations.  Conversions
should be driven by need, not ivory tower dictates.

D.
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George William Herbert - 27 Nov 2003 08:59 GMT
>>and you need to enforce on the design team (and ideally on
>>the operations team) that airframes are not going to be
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>need for routine conversion between configurations.  Conversions
>should be driven by need, not ivory tower dictates.

Consider vehicle major maintenance checks.

Major reliability drivers that we can predict ahead of time
are going to be main engines and TPS.  We can also predict
that a lower stage engine failure or a lower stage TPS problem
are less critical than that of the orbiter, coming back
from 2x the velocity and 4x the energy...

Consider for example a vehicle maintenance rotation where
vehicles spend a year doing orbital work, then get their
engines rotated for the short nozzle models and OMS pods
unbolted, and then are used for booster flights for 2 years,
and then undergo the equivalent of a D-check and are put
back into orbital flight for another year.

System upgrades and such get introduced along with the
checks and refurbishment, in the vehicles that need it
the most... the ones which will be flying orbital
missions for the next year or so.  But the
vehicles flying orbital missions don't have to undergo
D-checks every year.  As their systems and structures
age somewhat you just shift them into less demanding
booster work for a while, with the short nozzles,
and then push them back into orbiter service after
the next major rebuild and upgrade cycle.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Henry Spencer - 27 Nov 2003 01:09 GMT
>>Biamese or triamese is a win only if the boosters are the *same* as the
>>orbiter.  Same TPS; if it doesn't get as hot, that's nice...  It takes very
>>strong engineering leadership to make this work.
>
>I would pushback from that some.  But the sentiment is clearly
>thinking smart.

I'm willing to consider backing off from absolutely identical hardware a
little bit, but it needs to be done *very* cautiously to avoid incurring
extra analysis.  Even deleting something that looks like it will separate
cleanly can mean a new version of things like vibration analysis.  (Almost
certainly, the reason why the Pogo oscillation on Apollo 6 was worse than
that on Apollo 4 was that Apollo 4's dummy LM was just a tub of ballast
while Apollo 6's dummy tried to simulate the real LM's properties.)  You
really need to identify the deletions ahead of time and make sure they
get cranked into all the analyses, so you're deleting only in places
where variability is *expected*.

>6) Same main engines powerhead; a different nozzle is acceptable
>between the orbital and booster models, but one should be able to
>put a box over the nozzle end and tape cover any other identifying
>markings and stump a tech on whether it's the long or short nozzle
>model engine.

Yes, that one's probably worth doing, if you're not using an engine which
does altitude compensation some other way.

>...All the interfaces need to be common,
>and you need to enforce on the design team (and ideally on
>the operations team) that airframes are not going to be
>shoehorned into either role.  Establishing that in the
>operations and maintenance schedule model would be great.

You can do this in a small way by planning that early orbiters (which may
not be up to the final standard, as Enterprise and Columbia weren't) will
eventually be demoted to use as boosters.  What you really want, though,
is to build in some promotions from booster to orbiter -- that's the
direction that's easy to mess up.
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Josh Hopkins - 27 Nov 2003 06:58 GMT
Bimese is one of those ideas that just doesn't work when you start looking
at the details.

Forcing the two stages to be identical isn't free. It isn't even cheap.
Among other things:

The fixed proportion of stage sizes constrains the staging point to a
specific value around Mach 3-4. This is a low staging velocity by normal
standards and is a very non-optimum split between the two stages, forcing
the overall system to be much larger then necessary, even before the
inefficency of the identical design is taken into account.

The low staging point also results in a relatively high dynamic pressure at
staging (well past max Q, bust still decidedly endoatmospheric. The staging
velocity is low enough that a glide return is possible, but high enough to
make it touchy - attention must be paid to the glide characteristics of the
booster and the wind profile.

Bimese requires crossfeed (transfer of propellant from the booster to the
orbiter in flight) because otherwise the orbiter runs out of propellant
around the same time as the booster, and you would effectively just have two
SSTOs bolted together. Crossfeed is not impossible, but it is quite complex.
In particular, a Bimese vehicle requires that the crossfeed flow be shut
down and the feed system switch to the internal tanks while the engines keep
running. It is therefore not especially analogous to the Space Shuttle
Orbiter/ET connection.

On top of that, the functional requirements for a first and second stage
really aren't all that similar. A true bimese configuration forces the
duplication of wholly unnecessary systems on the two stages. For example,
the booster has essentially no need for a TPS system because of the low
staging velocity. It also has no need for OMS, or a long duration power
supply such as fuel cells (which may or may not be required on the second
stage depending on the mission duration requirement). In turn, a booster
stage must, by definition, have a stage vacuum thrust/Weight ratio well in
excess of 1. An optimally designed orbiter can get by with a T/W of 1 or
less at staging. Therefore, forcing commonality puts more engines on the
orbiter than it really needs.

Obviously, carrying around the deadweight of these superfluous systems makes
the overall system substantially heavier than an optimized design. To which
one might argue that mass isn't what matters - cost is. So consider this,
does it really make sense, from an cost standpoint, to needlessly duplicate
the components of the system that are the most expensive to buy and
maintain - engines, TPS and power?

It can be relatively painless to share only the subsystems that are most
expensive to design - engines, avionics, software - without making the
airframes look the same. That kind of commonality has a much better payoff
than a pure Bimese system.

For more on this subject, see "Selection of Lockheed Martin's Preferred TSTO
Configurations for the Space Launch Initiative" paper number IAC-02-V.4.03
from the 2002 World Space Congress. It describes a trade study in which
bimese placed last out of twenty TSTO configurations. It is interesting to
observe that all three of the SLI/2GRLV contractor teams plus NASA studied
bimese concepts, and that bimese was the initial baseline for Boeing and
Orbital, yet by the end of the contract no one thought it was the preferred
choice.

Josh Hopkins
David Shannon - 28 Nov 2003 01:51 GMT
> The fixed proportion of stage sizes constrains the staging point to a
> specific value around Mach 3-4.

 My calculations optimise around 2,200 m/sec - Mach 8+?

> Bimese requires crossfeed. ... Crossfeed ... is quite complex.

 Ah, yes.

> ... the crossfeed flow be shut down and the feed system switch to the
> internal tanks while the engines keep running.

 Ah, no.
 Crossfeed to the next stage's tanks, not its engines.
 (This implies the pump-fed type.)

> A true bimese configuration forces the duplication of wholly unnecessary
> systems on the two stages.

 So don't do "true biamese".
 Use the same components where feasible, and simpler/deleted
 substitutes where it makes engineering sense.
 Some parts will be overbuilt, but the devil's in the details.

> An optimally designed orbiter can get by with a T/W of 1 or
> less at staging. Therefore, forcing commonality puts more engines on the
> orbiter than it really needs.

 I'll trade optimality for the ability to abort-to-launch from the pad.

> For more on this subject, see "Selection of Lockheed Martin's Preferred TSTO
> Configurations for the Space Launch Initiative" paper number IAC-02-V.4.03
> from the 2002 World Space Congress

 Where can I download a copy?
johnhare - 29 Nov 2003 09:19 GMT
> > An optimally designed orbiter can get by with a T/W of 1 or
> > less at staging. Therefore, forcing commonality puts more engines on the
> > orbiter than it really needs.
>
>   I'll trade optimality for the ability to abort-to-launch from the pad.

One possibility that seems obvious is to have OMS pods that fit the same
slots as main engines. The unit used as booster has X engines with no OMS
pods, while the orbiter unit has X-1 engines plus the OMS pod. If it is a
designed in feature, weight and balance could be similar for both modes
without divergence of design or dead weight of non functional systems.
Anthony Frost - 29 Nov 2003 13:40 GMT

>   My calculations optimise around 2,200 m/sec - Mach 8+?
>
> > Bimese requires crossfeed. ... Crossfeed ... is quite complex.
>
>   Ah, yes.

Could you explain why crossfeed is *required*?
 
> > ... the crossfeed flow be shut down and the feed system switch to the
> > internal tanks while the engines keep running.
>
>   Ah, no.
>   Crossfeed to the next stage's tanks, not its engines.
>   (This implies the pump-fed type.)

Why not just optimise your tank sizes so that when full they hold enough
to take the orbiter vehicle from ground to orbit, then only partly fill
the booster vehicles tanks. You gain some weight from the larger tanks
required, but lose the complexity of the crossfeed. You also get a less
dense vehicle that will have an easier re-entry so may be able to win
back some more weight from the TPS.

Doing a quick back of an envelope calculation on something that
admittedly doesn't have flyback capability or re-entry shielding. A
trimese vehicle based on the S-II stage would have the same thrust to
weight ratio at take off as a Saturn V with a fully tanked core stage
and 60% loads in the two booster stages.

Dropping the booster fuel load to nearer 50% means you'd be separating
them after about 160 seconds, which is where the S-1C stage of a Saturn
V was exhausted. The core stage still has a 50% fuel load, or more if
you've kept the boosters running at 100% thrust and throttled down the
core, and could probably shut down some engines for the rest of the way
up.

A much smaller envelope suggests you could do something similar with
flyback S-1C stages, though using a bimese with 4 engines in each
vehicle or trimese with 3 would help matters.

         Anthony

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David Shannon - 01 Dec 2003 03:50 GMT
> Could you explain why crossfeed is *required*?

 Without crossfeed, a nominal biamese stages 30 seconds later (say at T+200
 rather than T+170). For that extra 30 seconds, the drag and inertia of 2
 stages rather than 1 is being overcome. The result is an increase of
 *~40%* in inert and propellant weights required for a given payload.

 For a Shuttle class launch, add an extra 1,000,000 lb of LHOx, 3 SSMEs and
 100 klb deadweight.
Anthony Frost - 01 Dec 2003 22:17 GMT
> > Could you explain why crossfeed is *required*?
>
>   Without crossfeed, a nominal biamese stages 30 seconds later (say at T+200
>   rather than T+170).

As you've snipped the rest of the post without answering the points I
raised, where is this "nominal" biamese vehicle described so I can run
some numbers on it? And why not just put less propellant load in the
booster stage and separate at 170s if that's so important?

         Anthony

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David Shannon - 04 Dec 2003 15:51 GMT
> As you've snipped the rest of the post without answering the points I
> raised,

 Insufficient data. I answered the part I could quantify.

> where is this "nominal" biamese vehicle described so I can run
> some numbers on it?

 I started a year ago assessing no-crossfeed biamese,
 dropped them for crossfed biamese (dramatic increase in efficiency),
 and dropped those for crossfed triamese (lessor but still useful increase
 in efficiency). The end result (pardon my crude illustrations)
 may be viewed at

 http://studentweb.usq.edu.au/home/d8760110/tsto.htm

 The numbers for the biamese are still in the attached spreadsheet.

> And why not just put less propellant load in the
> booster stage and separate at 170s if that's so important?

 It is not that it can't be done, but that it is so much less efficient than
 the crossfed setup.
Dave Salt - 29 Nov 2003 17:39 GMT
> Bimese is one of those ideas that just doesn't work when you start looking
> at the details.

The points you make may be true if the two component vehicles maintain
a single, fixed, role (i.e. booster and orbiter). However, IMHO, the
key benefit of the Bimese concept can only be realised if it is
extended to mission operations and the two identical vehicles are used
in both roles (e.g. on odd numbered missions Vehicle A is the orbiter
and Vehicle B the booster; on even numbered missions Vehicle A is the
booster and Vehicle B the orbiter).

> On top of that, the functional requirements for a first and second stage
> really aren't all that similar. A true bimese configuration forces the
> duplication of wholly unnecessary systems on the two stages.

However, if the concept is applied at the operational level, these
design aspects become wholly necessary and, therefore, fully
justifiable.

> Obviously, carrying around the deadweight of these superfluous systems makes
> the overall system substantially heavier than an optimized design. To which
> one might argue that mass isn't what matters - cost is. So consider this,
> does it really make sense, from an cost standpoint, to needlessly duplicate
> the components of the system that are the most expensive to buy and
> maintain - engines, TPS and power?

Not if the vehicles maintain a fixed role. However, if they
continually swap roles, I can see many benefits in terms of both
operations (common facilities, EGSE, components and procedures), costs
(increased production runs) and system robustness (interoperability of
vehicles, which also allows for a smaller fleet).

> For more on this subject, see "Selection of Lockheed Martin's Preferred TSTO
> Configurations for the Space Launch Initiative" paper number IAC-02-V.4.03
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Orbital, yet by the end of the contract no one thought it was the preferred
> choice.

I haven't yet seen this paper - did they consider the benefits of
exchanging operational roles or assume each vehicle performed just one
fixed role?

Dave

> Josh Hopkins
Magnus Redin - 30 Nov 2003 23:53 GMT
Hi!

> Bimese requires crossfeed (transfer of propellant from the booster
> to the orbiter in flight) because otherwise the orbiter runs out of
> propellant around the same time as the booster, and you would
> effectively just have two SSTOs bolted together.

Why not bolt two SSTO:s together?

One runs its engines at full throttle for the shortest possible
suborbital jump to the next continent or a once-around and transfers
thrust to the other.

The other one runs its engines at lower thrust with enough margin for
a suborbital jump to the next continent or a once-around if you have
an engine failure.

I have far to little knowledge to do the calculations but it might be
a workable way of getting those irritating last 5% of performance
withouth jettisonable single-use boosters or such and get a multiple
use manouverable spacecraft in a usefull orbit and not only a
quick-release payload with its own second stage.

You get the normal separation clear of the atmosphere and you realy
need to have all systems common for the booster and payload carrier.

Best regards,
---
Titta gärna på http://www.lysator.liu.se/~redin och kommentera min
politiska sida.
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Phone: Sweden (0)70 5160046
David Shannon - 02 Dec 2003 07:21 GMT
> Why not bolt two SSTO:s together?

 Do so!
 Now you have a Biamese 2STO.

 If you do this with 2 VentureStars, without optimisation or crossfeed,
    payload goes     from  50 to 124 klb
    propellant burn  from  46 to  24 lb/lb payload
   
 (Spreadsheet for above may be copied from
    http://studentweb.usq.edu.au/home/d8760110/_files/tsto.xls   )
dave schneider - 27 Nov 2003 03:21 GMT
[...]
> >The practical problem with biamese and triamese is that almost anything
> >you do to simplify the boosters starts you off down the slippery slope of
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> markings and stump a tech on whether it's the long or short nozzle
> model engine.

{...]
> Basically... there should be two sets of things.  The Airframe,
> which is structures and systems which are common, and those should
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> shoehorned into either role.  Establishing that in the
> operations and maintenance schedule model would be great.

I would think that one of the few ways to enforce the rule is to make
any unit be the orbital unit at some point.  For instance, units ABC
are used in the first launch, A going to orbit, B to high staging, and
C to low staging.  B then becomes the orbital unit for the 2nd launch
with CD staging, C the orbital unit with the 4th launch, with DA
staging....

Having modular assemblies would help a great deal, too, I would think.

/dps
David Shannon - 27 Nov 2003 03:32 GMT
> The practical problem with biamese and triamese is that almost anything
> you do to simplify the boosters starts ...  building two different vehicles.  

 Yes indeed. I know this well.
 I would be happy if, after operational testing, 20% commonality
 remained. But design and fly first, optimise later.
Greg - 25 Nov 2003 05:40 GMT
d8760110@mail.connect.usq.edu.au (David Shannon) wrote in message
> 2STO typically uses 1/3 the propellant for a given payload, although vehicle empty weights are higher.<

I don't have a problem with 2STO for a RLV. But how do you get the
first stage back? If you have good mass ratio between the 1st and 2nd
stage, its likley to be going fast at the seperation point making it
quite hard to do.

Greg
Mike Miller - 25 Nov 2003 19:58 GMT
> d8760110@mail.connect.usq.edu.au (David Shannon) wrote in message
> > 2STO typically uses 1/3 the propellant for a given payload, although vehicle empty weights are higher.<
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> stage, its likley to be going fast at the seperation point making it
> quite hard to do.

I suspect the TSTO can glide back. Even at mach 8 separations, is the
first stage all that far down range, more than 100-200 miles? It'll
have a lot of energy from altitude and speed that can be spent turning
around and gliding back.

However, despite my ill-edumucated suspicions, I do note many early US
shuttle concepts seemed to favor lots of jet engines. The "winged
Saturn", the Saturn V flyback first stage, had 10 jet engines.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Henry Spencer - 26 Nov 2003 18:31 GMT
>I suspect the TSTO can glide back. Even at mach 8 separations, is the
>first stage all that far down range, more than 100-200 miles?

For an orthodox trajectory, a Mach 8 separation will bring it down more
like 300mi from the launch site.  That tends to require powered return.
And that's not a particularly high separation speed.

>It'll
>have a lot of energy from altitude and speed that can be spent turning
>around and gliding back.

Not unless it has truly excellent aerodynamic performance, which is
another nasty can of worms.  It's not all that high up by the time it
can get turned around.
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Christopher M. Jones - 27 Nov 2003 05:15 GMT
> >I suspect the TSTO can glide back. Even at mach 8 separations, is the
> >first stage all that far down range, more than 100-200 miles?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> another nasty can of worms.  It's not all that high up by the time it
> can get turned around.

That always seems like the sticky wicket for RLV TSTOs.  There are
ways to go about solving the problem but none of them are simple.  One
idea I kinda like is a hopping sub-orbital first stage.  Build a
nearly orbital single stage RLV (but enough less than orbital to
realize substantial savings design and operations wise), set up
several launch/landing sites around the world and then hop the
sub-orbital vehicle from one to another for each launch.  For example,
a ring of 2, 3 or more spaceports along the equator.  Since you are
(or should be) running a high flight rate launch service with these
vehicles there isn't much downside to not having them all piled up at
one centralized launch complex.  The other idea I like is a simple
drop tank on a quasi-SSTO.  Though with orbital rocketry there's very
little that's ever simple.
Mike Miller - 27 Nov 2003 05:47 GMT
> For an orthodox trajectory, a Mach 8 separation will bring it down more
> like 300mi from the launch site.  That tends to require powered return.
> And that's not a particularly high separation speed.

Well, that explains all the jet engines on reusable first stages then. ;)

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Mike Miller - 27 Nov 2003 14:15 GMT

> Not unless it has truly excellent aerodynamic performance, which is
> another nasty can of worms.  It's not all that high up by the time it
> can get turned around.

Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
worth the trouble of extra systems? Could one of several main rocket
engines be used frugally to keep the stage up to speed during its
return flight, and some or all of the weight that would've gone to jet
engines be used for additional rocket fuel?

I can see some issues like a possible need for an alternate or unusual
fuel pump system to feed the main engine during level flight and, of
course, a big rocket engine uses fuel pretty quickly.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Henry Spencer - 30 Nov 2003 04:26 GMT
>> Not unless it has truly excellent aerodynamic performance, which is
>> another nasty can of worms.  It's not all that high up by the time it
>> can get turned around.
>
>Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
>worth the trouble of extra systems?

Without having done the arithmetic, I suspect they're very hard to avoid.
Using rocket thrust just eats up too much fuel, especially given that a
rocket stage's subsonic L/D is unlikely to be all that good.
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Michael J Wise - 01 Dec 2003 18:54 GMT
> Without having done the arithmetic, I suspect they're very hard to
> avoid.
> Using rocket thrust just eats up too much fuel, especially given that a
> rocket stage's subsonic L/D is unlikely to be all that good.

What if you have a hundred (or more?) small chambers instead of a
couple large ones?
In addition to being deeply throttle-able, you could also run just a
few on the return.

And as for L/D, well... there is a classical solution to that.

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Henry Spencer - 04 Dec 2003 21:50 GMT
>> [booster flyback]
>> Using rocket thrust just eats up too much fuel, especially given that a
>> rocket stage's subsonic L/D is unlikely to be all that good.
>
>What if you have a hundred (or more?) small chambers instead of a
>couple large ones?

Doesn't really help that much, except in that it facilitates deep
throttling.  You still need a certain amount of thrust to balance drag for
a given mass and L/D, and getting that thrust with a rocket still involves
3-4x the propellant consumption of getting it with a jet.  For subsonic
cruise in thick air, airbreathers generally win big.

>And as for L/D, well... there is a classical solution to that.

There are various things you can do to improve L/D, but they all tend to
involve significant extra mass and complexity.
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David Shannon - 07 Dec 2003 09:31 GMT
> Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> worth the trouble of extra systems? Could one of several main rocket
> engines be used frugally to keep the stage up to speed during its
> return flight, and some or all of the weight that would've gone to jet
> engines be used for additional rocket fuel?

 In *very* broad terms -

           Specific Impulse  Thrust/weight        
 Rockets    ~  400 sec          ~ 50:1
 Jets       ~ 4000 sec          ~  5:1

 For fly-back, rockets are just too thirsty. Its no trouble to have a small
 supplementary rocket (high T/W), or a few left on out of a cluster used at
 launch, but lugging the extra propellant to many thousands of mph is
 prohibitive.

 For fly-back, jets are just too heavy (bear in mind that they need ducting,
 & create extra drag during launch or incur the added mass of pop-out mounts).

 That leaves 3 options
   - a downrange landing field with fly-home bolt-on jets
   - reuse from downrange launch pad (practical for heavy sustained ops)
   - jets that "pay their way" by operating in the first 50 sec of launch
     ie while subsonic in dense atmosphere.
johnhare - 08 Dec 2003 00:54 GMT
> > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> > worth the trouble of extra systems? Could one of several main rocket
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>     - jets that "pay their way" by operating in the first 50 sec of launch
>       ie while subsonic in dense atmosphere.

Option 4; Design hybrid (combined cycle) systems with some of the advantages
of both, optimised for the specific mission type possibly at the expense of
engine
life.
wlhaught - 13 Jan 2004 17:48 GMT
> Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
worth the trouble of extra systems?

As I recall, I read somewhere that the shuttle uses half its fuel to
reach 1,000 mph.  As long as we rely on rockets instead of towers and
tethers or a beanstalk*, how about small shuttles and big dumb rockets
on supersonic jets?  Of course we may need different jets for the two
systems.  Indeed the big rocket will require a big plane with wings,
perhaps wings itself.  Perhaps it can be designed to lose the wings
with the second stage.

* A situation that needs to be corrected long before peak oil (2005 to
2020), in other words, yesterday.  The above sounds like a way to
launch and assemble the required payloads for at least the first
tether, any required assembly systems, etc.
Carsten Nielsen - 15 Jan 2004 16:14 GMT
> > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> worth the trouble of extra systems?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tethers or a beanstalk*, how about small shuttles and big dumb rockets
> on supersonic jets?

There have been lots of plans of that sort.

The most important thing about it would be to lift the vehicle above
the lower dense athmosphere, not so much to get it moving at
supersonic speed.

Regards

Carsten Nielsen
Denmark
Mike Ackerman - 17 Jan 2004 11:32 GMT
> There have been lots of plans of that sort.
>
> The most important thing about it would be to lift the vehicle above
> the lower dense athmosphere, not so much to get it moving at
> supersonic speed.

Then how about a propeller plane as 1st stage?  Recall that the Helios
holds the altitude record for a non-rocket plane, c. 100,000 feet.  As
ridiculous as the Helios concept is, that record is impressive.

Although the Helios was a solar-powered electric plane, I see no reason
why that altitude couldn't be reached with a piston engine.  It would
use a turbocharger with a multi-stage compressor.

Should this be the goal for TSTO?  A slow booster plane with a huge wing?

Mike Ackerman
Axel Walthelm - 16 Jan 2004 19:49 GMT
>  > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> worth the trouble of extra systems?
>
> As I recall, I read somewhere that the shuttle uses half its fuel to
> reach 1,000 mph.

You sure?

I have a copy of a speed/height/time diagram of the shuttles ascend.
1000 mph would be 1600 km/h. The diagram says that this speed is
reached within the first minute of launch at a height of about 8-10
km.

Launch takes 8.5 minutes, boosters burn 2 minutes. If you would say
half of the boosters fuel is used up at 1000 mph that would fit. But
total fuel including the fuel of the big external tank?

Ok, solid booster rocket fuel is quite heavy, and the booster burns
faster in the beginning than at the end. So maybe overall this could
be true.

But what does it mean? Solid rocket boosters are not economic?

A somewhat related fact: the shuttle has to throttle its main engines
during ascent within atmoshpere, because the fragile orbiter wings
can't stand the wind pressure.

Does anone know how much of a performance penalty this means?
(And at what height/speed this happens)
Hobbs aka McDaniel - 17 Jan 2004 05:24 GMT
> >  > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> > worth the trouble of extra systems?
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Does anone know how much of a performance penalty this means?
> (And at what height/speed this happens)

Rockets become more efficent as the ambient pressure (ie: atmosphere)
drops... therefore if you could launch the exact same rocket from
say the moon or earth orbit you'd get more bang all other things
being equal (not that they would be since we don't have the infrastructure
in space to fuel and launch big ships at present). In other words
as a rocket rises from a place of high atmospheric pressure to a
place of lower pressure it is becoming more efficent AND it also
has less weight to move because so much of the original weight was
fuel that fed the engine.

-McDaniel
Sander Vesik - 18 Jan 2004 22:27 GMT
In sci.space.policy Axel Walthelm <Axel.Walthelm@gmx.de> wrote:
> >  > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
> > worth the trouble of extra systems?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> But what does it mean? Solid rocket boosters are not economic?

"You should use a different flight profile that didn't try to
get to high speed while in teh densest parts of teh atmosphere"?

Signature

    Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

spacr - 31 Jan 2004 00:31 GMT
Hi,

The answer to the origional question is quite simple.
The thrust to weight ratio of jet engines is BAD, really bad. The best jet
engines are around 10 or 12:1 and most are 5:1 or less. Bottom line: they
are just too friggin heavy... lol

As Always,

Jay Troetschel

> In sci.space.policy Axel Walthelm <Axel.Walthelm@gmx.de> wrote:
> > >  > Alright, back to powered flybacks for first stages. Are jet engines
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> "You should use a different flight profile that didn't try to
> get to high speed while in teh densest parts of teh atmosphere"?
David Shannon - 27 Nov 2003 03:35 GMT
> Even at mach 8 separations, is the first stage all that far down range,
> more than 100-200 miles? It'll have a lot of energy from altitude and ...

 My trusty spreadsheet says 2,247 m/sec, 74 km up and 93 km downrange.
Henry Spencer - 27 Nov 2003 05:37 GMT
>> Even at mach 8 separations, is the first stage all that far down range,
>> more than 100-200 miles? It'll have a lot of energy from altitude and ...
>
>  My trusty spreadsheet says 2,247 m/sec, 74 km up and 93 km downrange.

Unless you're planning on using rocket thrust to turn it around (as
Kistler was going to do), what you care about is not where separation
occurs, but where the booster reenters, because it's going to coast a
long way farther downrange before it has enough lift to do anything
about it.
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Earl Colby Pottinger - 05 Dec 2003 02:19 GMT
henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) :

> In article <b8cf8695.0311261935.32a6726e@posting.google.com>,
> David Shannon <d8760110@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote:
> >> Even at mach 8 separations, is the first stage all that far down range,  
> >> more than 100-200 miles? It'll have a lot of energy from altitude and
.

> >  My trusty spreadsheet says 2,247 m/sec, 74 km up and 93 km downrange.
>  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> long way farther downrange before it has enough lift to do anything
> about it.

I don't understand why it must be so far downrange?  What is wrong with going
just straight up, separate, then straight down or as near to that as possible?

               Earl Colby Pottinger

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Henry Spencer - 06 Dec 2003 05:06 GMT
>> Unless you're planning on using rocket thrust to turn it around (as
>> Kistler was going to do), what you care about is not where separation
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I don't understand why it must be so far downrange?  What is wrong with going
>just straight up, separate, then straight down or as near to that as possible?

You want the first stage to contribute a fair bit of horizontal velocity,
not just altitude, to the second stage.  The dominant problem of getting
into orbit is velocity.  A first stage that just goes straight up requires
the second stage to have near-SSTO performance, and the big reason for
using two stages in the first place is the belief that SSTO is Too Hard.

Also, a vertical reentry from high altitude is a lot harsher than one with
a horizontal component, because it takes you down into thick air before
you've had a chance to decelerate much.  From 100km, it's manageable; from
much higher than that, it gets pretty nasty unless you've got something
like a deployable drag brake.
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Niels Jørgen Kruse - 06 Dec 2003 14:52 GMT
I artiklen <HpGJIB.GFq@spsystems.net> , henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
skrev:

>>> Unless you're planning on using rocket thrust to turn it around (as
>>> Kistler was going to do), what you care about is not where separation
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the second stage to have near-SSTO performance, and the big reason for
> using two stages in the first place is the belief that SSTO is Too Hard.

Altitude would allow longer burn time -> smaller engines.

> Also, a vertical reentry from high altitude is a lot harsher than one with
> a horizontal component, because it takes you down into thick air before
> you've had a chance to decelerate much.  From 100km, it's manageable; from
> much higher than that, it gets pretty nasty unless you've got something
> like a deployable drag brake.

Assuming a horizontal velocity component, would it be terrible to take the
1. stage back with something like a CargoLifter?

--
Mvh./Regards,    Niels Jørgen Kruse,    Vanløse, Denmark
Henry Spencer - 06 Dec 2003 22:15 GMT
>> ...A first stage that just goes straight up requires
>> the second stage to have near-SSTO performance, and the big reason for
>> using two stages in the first place is the belief that SSTO is Too Hard.
>
>Altitude would allow longer burn time -> smaller engines.

Oh, there's no denying that it helps somewhat; the question is whether it
helps enough to be worth the added problems with staging and first-stage
recovery.

>> Also, a vertical reentry from high altitude is a lot harsher than one with
>> a horizontal component...
>
>Assuming a horizontal velocity component, would it be terrible to take the
>1. stage back with something like a CargoLifter?

Not a big problem, if there's a suitable landing spot for the first stage,
and if it's physically compatible (mass, size, etc.) with a suitable cargo
vehicle.
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Christopher M. Jones - 07 Dec 2003 05:08 GMT
> >Assuming a horizontal velocity component, would it be terrible to take the
> >1. stage back with something like a CargoLifter?
>
> Not a big problem, if there's a suitable landing spot for the first stage,
> and if it's physically compatible (mass, size, etc.) with a suitable cargo
> vehicle.

That is the big problem though, literally.  Even if you can
quarantee the stage drops in the same spot every time you
still have to get it back.  Most realistic first stages for
launch vehicles sized for the most commercially valuable
payload ranges are going to be way, way, way too large to
be transported by air anywhere unless they can fold up
magically like George Jetson's flying car.  Ground
transport would be easier but is going to be a sticky
wicket unless the stage lands near a railroad stock yard
every time.  Water transport would need a similarly
fortuitous landing locale.

Interestingly, one good option would be a heavy lifting
blimp, which should have the load capacity and range to do
the trick.  But, even though there are such on the drawing
boards they don't have any in production yet.
Michael J Wise - 07 Dec 2003 23:27 GMT
> That is the big problem though, literally.  Even if you can
> quarantee the stage drops in the same spot every time you
> still have to get it back.

That's certainly one selling point for SSTO RLV, yeah?
It returns to the launch site as part of the flight profile.

Hopefully when the Prez announces the "Giant Crawl Back"...
we'll get back into the Heavy Lift business again.

Not that my opinion matters, but... here's what I'm hoping for:

1) 100 tons to LEO. (Saturn V class payload)
2) SSTO, Trivially Reusable "Booster". (Implies wings; Sorry)
3) If you want to put an OSP that can seat 10 on top of it, fine.
4) The OSP should be able to survive a catastrophic booster failure.

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Ian Woollard - 29 Dec 2003 15:58 GMT
> Even if you can
> quarantee the stage drops in the same spot every time you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> be transported by air anywhere unless they can fold up
> magically like George Jetson's flying car.

Umm. You've missed the fact that the first stage launch vehicle *is* an
air transport. Just refill it and send it back.
Christopher M. Jones - 30 Dec 2003 04:34 GMT
> > Even if you can
> > quarantee the stage drops in the same spot every time you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Umm. You've missed the fact that the first stage launch vehicle *is* an
> air transport. Just refill it and send it back.

Ummm, no.  Even assuming that you could bear the
mass burden of making the first stage capable of
launching without a pad, gantry, or extensive
preparation you've still got the difficulty of
refueling in the field.  Maybe you wouldn't mind
landing a jumbo jet filled with LOX, but I
suspect most pilots probably would, especially
considering that it would require *several* to
refuel a sizeable first stage.  But this really
just begs the question.  If you can haul the
enormous mass of the fuel and oxidizer along with
sundry equipment needed for refueling and launch
to the landing site, why can't you simply haul a
lesser mass (and a less HAZARDOUS mass) back
instead and forego the relaunch?
Ian Woollard - 31 Dec 2003 16:24 GMT
> > Umm. You've missed the fact that the first stage launch vehicle *is* an
> > air transport. Just refill it and send it back.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> launching without a pad, gantry, or extensive
> preparation

Build two pads.

> you've still got the difficulty of
> refueling in the field.

Not if you've built two pads.

> If you can haul the
> enormous mass of the fuel and oxidizer along with
> sundry equipment needed for refueling and launch
> to the landing site,

There's this amazing invention called a 'truck'. You drive them out to
the landing pad with LOX and fuel on board and refuel the launch
vehicle there.

> why can't you simply haul a
> lesser mass (and a less HAZARDOUS mass) back
> instead and forego the relaunch?

A launch vehicle is large, bulky and fragile. Laying it down and
bumping it on the back of a truck for hundreds of miles isn't very
good for it; and there are awkward width restrictions that probably
mean you need to disassemble the vehicle to do that. It adds weeks to
the turnaround time.

The trickiest bit is finding two launch sites the right distance
apart, both with road access, and no big areas of population around.
william mook - 30 Dec 2003 19:36 GMT
> > Even if you can
> > quarantee the stage drops in the same spot every time you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Umm. You've missed the fact that the first stage launch vehicle *is* an
> air transport. Just refill it and send it back.

I like the cross-feeding idea with parallel staging.  

Imagine that an External Tank is outfitted with seven SSME - and is
redesigned to be reused, maybe by deploying wings like a big cruise
missile.

Now, imagine that the same hardware that allows the Space Shuttle
Orbiter to make use of the ET in the first place, is adapted to create
a cross-feeding arrangement.

Then, imagine that three ET based systems are launched in parallel -
three across.  The outer two ET elements feed propellant to the
central ET element while they're attached.  They drain first and leave
a full central ET element to carry on as a second stage.

Now, imagine that seven ET based systems are launched in paralle - two
on each side of the three across described above.

 (1)(2)
(3)(4)(5)
 (6)(7)

>From above they look like the pattern shown here.

(3) and (5) feed (4), each providing 50% of the propellant flow needed
by a given ET element.

(1) and (6) feed (3), each providing 75% of the propellant flow
needed;
(2) and (7) feed (5), each providing 75% of the propellant flow
needed;

So, at lift off ALL engines are firing and operational - reducing risk
at staging.

Also, at lift off, ALL engines are contributing to vehicle lift -
reducing redundant hardware.

Finally, at lift off, all engines are being feed propellant from tanks
(1),(2),(6), and (7).

When they are drained, they will be dropped to be recovered and
reused.  Meanwhile, (3) and (5) continue to feed the remaining engines
in the three remaining elements - operating in effect as a second
stage.

When (3) and (5) are empty, they are dropped to be recovered and
reused, and (4) continues onward operating in effect as a third stage.

A system like this could place 500 tons into LEO - about 4.5x the
capacity of the old Saturn V moon rocket.

The three element version could place 215 tons into LEO - about 2x the
capacity of the old Saturn V moon rocket.

The one element version, with a serial stage atop it (using but a
single SSME along with a SIVb sized upper stage) could place 70 tons
into LEO - about 3/5 the capacity of the old Saturn V moon rocket. Or
twice the capacity of a space shuttle.

The upper stage described briefly here could operate as a first stage
and using a Centaur like upper stage place 6 to 9 tons into space - on
par with many commercial rockets.

This entire system could form a single family of vehicles that would
allow us to do anything in space we wanted to near term.  All using a
variant of the SSME - and taking advantage of the economies outlined
at the start of this thread.
David Shannon - 31 Dec 2003 07:33 GMT
> Now, imagine that seven ET based systems are launched in paralle - two
> on each side of the three across described above.
>
>   (1)(2)
> (3)(4)(5)
>   (6)(7)

 From the test and development view....

 I want to put a Gemini-size payload up (2 dudes and a pocket hankerchief -
 say 3,500 lb). What size do the stages become? Inert and fuel weights?

 Cheers
Earl Colby Pottinger - 06 Dec 2003 15:02 GMT
henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) :

> In article <vsvqqek2cm4f14@corp.supernews.com>,
> Earl Colby Pottinger  <earlcp@idirect.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> much higher than that, it gets pretty nasty unless you've got something
> like a deployable drag brake.  

I knew all that, but for some reason it just did not click in.  Thanks

           Earl Colby Pottinger

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David Shannon - 26 Nov 2003 08:11 GMT
> But how do you get the first stage back?

 A 1993 NASA study (TP-3335) considered the 2STO case
 where 47% of the ascent propellant was carried by the booster,
 which had a fuel fraction of .874.

 It staged at T+105 seconds at 83,175' and 2,900 ft/sec.
 Even so, it was then only 10.5 nautical miles laterally from the pad.
 A glide return was perfectly feasible.
Henry Spencer - 26 Nov 2003 18:38 GMT
>> But how do you get the first stage back?
>
>  ...It staged at T+105 seconds at 83,175' and 2,900 ft/sec.
>  Even so, it was then only 10.5 nautical miles laterally from the pad.

Unfortunately, this is more like a boosted SSTO than a TSTO; staging at
only Mach 3, the upper stage is doing almost all of the work.

Worse, 83kft is comfortably within the atmosphere, so we're talking about
staging at high dynamic pressure -- an idea that makes design engineers
cringe while aerodynamics researchers rub their hands in glee.  (As a
point of comparison, the Saturn V staged at twice that altitude.)
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David Shannon - 28 Nov 2003 01:21 GMT
> Unfortunately, this is more like a boosted SSTO than a TSTO; staging at
> only Mach 3, the upper stage is doing almost all of the work.

 I believe the study's focus was specifically a
 no-TPS glide-return-to-base 1st stage for a LHOx TSTO.
Charles Talleyrand - 20 Nov 2003 05:37 GMT
> The important point is that propellant is cheap, cheap, cheap, and loss of a launcher is as expensive as all hell.
>
> Best reliability calls for a completely reuseable single stage launcher, with engines of such a size and number that, if at any
> time one of them must be shut down, the others throttle up to compensate, and you just keep going.

This is not obvious.

In a world where engines explode upon failure, having exactly one engine per stage is best.

In a world where there are finite development dollars, and those dollars can buy reliability, having
one TYPE of engine per vehicle is best.

It has been suggested to me in private email that the correct answer to this delima is to have one engine
FAMILY, but with multiple engine sizes per family.

> The "reusable" part means that you can get all of the design and manufacturing errors out of every flight article before it goes
> into service.  This also means that, in service, the chances of a catastrophic engine failure are negligible.

I dunno.  Seems to me that airplanes occasionaly suffer failure despite their resability, and it's not clear why
repeated testing makes catastrophic failure preferencially less likely than any other type.
George William Herbert - 21 Nov 2003 04:38 GMT
By the way, 80 or less column posts are usually appreciated.
Format, format, format!

>> The important point is that propellant is cheap,
>> cheap, cheap, and loss of a launcher is as expensive as all hell.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>In a world where engines explode upon failure, having exactly
>one engine per stage is best.

Engines actually rarely explode on failure; going back
through the history of flight failures shows almost exclusively
systems failure followed by shutdown, or accidental shutdown,
without any uncontained failure.  It's not unknown but is a lot
rarer than 'graceful' shutdowns.

Cost and complexity constraints as well as reliability
analysis do argue for single engines per stage on expendables,
and five or more on reusables with abort-to-orbit (fewer if
abort-to-ground is ok).

>In a world where there are finite development dollars,
>and those dollars can buy reliability, having
>one TYPE of engine per vehicle is best.

That does have its limits.  It's great on SSTO and Stage
and a Half, and some TSTO concepts.  It sucks on three or
more stage vehicles where the GLOW of the first stage may be
a hundred or more times the GLOW of the last stage...

>It has been suggested to me in private email that the correct
>answer to this delima is to have one engine
>FAMILY, but with multiple engine sizes per family.

Hard to do that; engines don't scale very well in terms of keeping
similar design and construction.  Similar operating concept and
specifications?  Sure.  But the parts won't be descended or
related very closely.

One reasonable exception is truncated versus long nozzles...
*that* isn't such a big change.  You can keep the exact same
pumps, combustion chamber, injector, etc.

The answers to some of these questions vary significantly when
you look at serious RLV operability and seriously far out BDB
designs, as optimizations start to pull in unexpected ways.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker - 21 Nov 2003 21:39 GMT
Am 20 Nov 2003 20:38:05 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":

>>In a world where engines explode upon failure, having exactly
>>one engine per stage is best.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>without any uncontained failure.  It's not unknown but is a lot
>rarer than 'graceful' shutdowns.

Ok, then search for "hard start" instead - that's the euphemism used
for engine explosion when it occurs on ignition. You will maybe
surprised to find a significant number of them...

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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George William Herbert - 23 Nov 2003 03:21 GMT
>Am 20 Nov 2003 20:38:05 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":
>>>In a world where engines explode upon failure, having exactly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>for engine explosion when it occurs on ignition. You will maybe
>surprised to find a significant number of them...

No, "hard start" is not a euphemism for an engine
explosion on ignition.  A hard start is a hard start;
some buildup of propellant prior to complete ignition,
followed by rapid high pressure combustion.

A hard start that leads to system or mechanical failure
or engine dissassembly is no longer called a hard start.

I just skimmed through the launch failure reports in
3rd edition Iaskowiwitz (Space Launch Systems).
There are a few engine failures with not enough
details to tell if they were hard starts or another
failure, but all the attributed engine failures were
from other causes, unless I missed one.

Could you please point to actual examples of
vehicles lost due to engine hard starts?
Not development accidents; production vehicle
losses.  Hmm.  Well, the X-15 might count,
but even that is stretching it somewhat.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Henry Spencer - 23 Nov 2003 05:19 GMT
>Could you please point to actual examples of
>vehicles lost due to engine hard starts?
>Not development accidents; production vehicle
>losses.  Hmm.  Well, the X-15 might count,
>but even that is stretching it somewhat.

?  The only X-15 actually lost was a mid-air breakup due to control-system
misbehavior (complicated by poor display design, pilot vertigo, and a
hypersonic spin), long after engine cutoff.

One of the X-15s was badly damaged during a ground test, but that was a
tank burst due to overpressurization after an engine shutdown.
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Mary Shafer - 23 Nov 2003 06:15 GMT
> No, "hard start" is not a euphemism for an engine
> explosion on ignition.  A hard start is a hard start;
> some buildup of propellant prior to complete ignition,
> followed by rapid high pressure combustion.

You also get a hard start (or hard light) when the fuel being pumped
into the afterburner doesn't light immediately and pools in the burner
can.  Then when it does light, it goes "whoomp", blows out a flame as
long as the airplane, and give the crew a kick in the rump.

> Could you please point to actual examples of
> vehicles lost due to engine hard starts?
> Not development accidents; production vehicle
> losses.  Hmm.  Well, the X-15 might count,
> but even that is stretching it somewhat.

A number of fighters, but since they're not rockets, they don't count.
The F-106 only had hard starts because of the way it was designed, but
it flew for decades that way.

Mary

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Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker - 23 Nov 2003 10:24 GMT
Am 22 Nov 2003 19:21:55 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":

>>>Engines actually rarely explode on failure; going back
>>>through the history of flight failures shows almost exclusively
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>some buildup of propellant prior to complete ignition,
>followed by rapid high pressure combustion.

I know of occurences, where the term 'hard start' WAS used as an
euphemism to explain, why a mission goal could not be achieved.

One example I can pick out is the Ariane-5 mission (L#142) that should
have launched Artemis and BSAT-2B to GTO - BSAT was lost completely,
and Artemis lost much mission time by that so called hard start...

So what?

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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George William Herbert - 24 Nov 2003 18:43 GMT
>Am 22 Nov 2003 19:21:55 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":
>>>>Engines actually rarely explode on failure; going back
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>So what?

So, find a second such incident.

Just about everything in the world has happened once
to a space launch.  The things that happen over and over
again are where we need to focus attention, for the most part.

There are clear patterns such as leaving rags / pipe covers /
other foreign objects in pipes and tanks; guidance systems losing
their minds and not having a backup; solid rocket motors going
boom;  etc.  Hard starts are not a clear pattern.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home) - 29 Nov 2003 15:00 GMT
Am 24 Nov 2003 10:43:17 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":

>>I know of occurences, where the term 'hard start' WAS used as an
>>euphemism to explain, why a mission goal could not be achieved.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>So, find a second such incident.

ok, look back to the development history of the first American liquid
fueled multi-stage sounding rockets somewhen in the 19'fifties - there
was that very same euphemism chosen for describing a failure cause. Or
read the history of X-planes - you will find that term used in this
way, too.

But btw: I would not need to find more incidents than one - even one
single documented use of that term (you're free to chose one :-)
proves my words right, undeniable and without doubt.

cu, ZiLi aka HKZL (Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker)
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George William Herbert - 30 Nov 2003 09:42 GMT
>Am 24 Nov 2003 10:43:17 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":
>>>I know of occurences, where the term 'hard start' WAS used as an
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>read the history of X-planes - you will find that term used in this
>way, too.

This is not an argument about whether Hard Starts ever happen.
They clearly have happened, a lot in engine development, and some
in early flight programs.  I was never challenging that.

I am challenging that Hard Starts are in any way a significant
contributor to production space launch vehicle launch failure
rates.

>But btw: I would not need to find more incidents than one - even one
>single documented use of that term (you're free to chose one :-)
>proves my words right, undeniable and without doubt.

Umm, no.  What you said earlier was:
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker  <news-reply@zili.de> wrote:
>Am 22 Nov 2003 19:21:55 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":
>>>>Engines actually rarely explode on failure; going back
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>>for engine explosion when it occurs on ignition. You will maybe
>>>surprised to find a significant number of them...

You specifically argued here that not just did hard starts
happen in production flights, but that there were a significant
number of them.

"one" is not "a significant number".

As I said; take the Space Launch Systems guide, 3rd edition,
and detailed failure histories of the various rockets,
and look at the failure causes.

Your assertion that there are a significant number
of them is not born out by the data, based on my
qualitative analysis when you first brought this up.

You are welcome to, for example, take all the failures listed
and categorize them and provide statistics, if you want to
argue the contrary.  But as I said... I didn't find any hard
start induced launch failures through 1999 in the book,
leafing through it to see what the historical occurrances
looked like.  I missed one or two somewhere?  Credible.
I missed something statistically significant, out of the
hundred or so entries for failures?  Less credible.

-george william herbert
gherbert@retro.com
Heinrich Zinndorf-Linker (zili@home) - 30 Nov 2003 13:47 GMT
Am 30 Nov 2003 01:42:55 -0800 schrieb "George William Herbert":<