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How long to find ET?

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Golden California Girls - 12 Jun 2008 06:16 GMT
Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the expected
search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's equation, transmitter
power, receiver sensitivity, and so on?

Something like: "Given our current search we have a 5% chance of detecting ET in
a millennium if he is in our galaxy."  Or whatever the numbers work out to be.
Mike Williams - 12 Jun 2008 08:38 GMT
>Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
>expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>detecting ET in a millennium if he is in our galaxy."  Or whatever the
>numbers work out to be.

Probably the most significant factor which would need to be taken into
consideration is to what extent ET wants to be found. With current
technology we can't detect signals that just happen to leak out, except
perhaps for the very nearest stars. What we're hoping for is that some
ETs want to be found and are aiming narrow band beacon signals in our
direction. In our case, we have only sent a handful of such signals
since we developed suitable technology.

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Gentleman of Leisure

Matt Giwer - 13 Jun 2008 03:16 GMT
> Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
> expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's
> equation, transmitter power, receiver sensitivity, and so on?

> Something like: "Given our current search we have a 5% chance of
> detecting ET in a millennium if he is in our galaxy."  Or whatever the
> numbers work out to be.

    It is not possible as the Drake equation is all unknowns. Only after finding
the first handful will it be possible and then based upon nothing in the
equation.

    Consider 20 years ago asking how long before discovering the first planet
around another star. There would be no way to answer no matter how fancy an
equation is available because none had been found. Today we can take the total
number examined and the number found and come up with a ballpark. But that
question is more interesting as it is conditioned on how they were found and
better methods being developed and so forth.

    It will be the same with ET. Presuming we start finding ETs in the
foreseeable future it will be long before we can fill in the blanks in the
Drake equation unless one of those ETs has the answers and tells us. The
variables in the equation would take a massive survey of a huge number of
stars likely in the tens of thousands to get a first approximation of the
variables.

    But hearing a few ETs jumps to the answer without knowing any of the Drake
variables. With the first few refined search methods will be developed. If
there are similarities among them then some will narrow the search just for
the commonalities like type of star or type of signal. If that works we could
find dozens of ETs without knowing any more about the variables than we did
when Drake wrote it down.

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Golden California Girls - 13 Jun 2008 17:08 GMT
>> Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
>> expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> finding the first handful will it be possible and then based upon
> nothing in the equation.

Every single input to the Drake equation has an error estimate.  As I was asking
for a probability, not a finite number, there is an answer.  The biggest factors
however are transmitter power and receiver sensitivity along with percent of sky
searched.  If you know that you can pick up a cell phone at 10000 light years
then you know you should find all ET's within 10000 light years of earth, once
you complete your all sky survey ...

>     Consider 20 years ago asking how long before discovering the first
> planet around another star. There would be no way to answer no matter
> how fancy an equation is available because none had been found.

That question was asked and answered 20 years ago and the answer was accurate.
20 years ago, it was a question of sensitivity.  Until the right detectors were
made [Hubbel] we knew we couldn't find them.  And BTW finding them pinned down
one of the Drake equation numbers.

> Today we
> can take the total number examined and the number found and come up with
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> signal. If that works we could find dozens of ETs without knowing any
> more about the variables than we did when Drake wrote it down.
Matt Giwer - 14 Jun 2008 01:31 GMT
>>> Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
>>> expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> after finding the first handful will it be possible and then based
>> upon nothing in the equation.

> Every single input to the Drake equation has an error estimate.  As I
> was asking for a probability, not a finite number, there is an answer.  

    Probabilities are numbers.

> The biggest factors however are transmitter power and receiver
> sensitivity along with percent of sky searched.  If you know that you
> can pick up a cell phone at 10000 light years then you know you should
> find all ET's within 10000 light years of earth, once you complete your
> all sky survey ...

    There is no way to say which is the "biggest" factor when none of the factors
are known.

>>     Consider 20 years ago asking how long before discovering the first
>> planet around another star. There would be no way to answer no matter
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> right detectors were made [Hubbel] we knew we couldn't find them.  And
> BTW finding them pinned down one of the Drake equation numbers.

    Let me try again.

    Not one variable in the Drake equation is known to even a wild guess
confidence level.

    HOW do you think it is possible to arrive at any number when there are no
input numbers?

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What if this is the flash?
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Patrick Meuser-Bianca - 15 Jun 2008 18:14 GMT
A quick fast and easy algorithm for the location relation and assocation of
Extra terretrail life on SETI to Sirius:

Time: Oct 12 2006ADCE, 1:44 pm
Distance: 60ly
Link: http://www.usag-ac.info/cgi-bin/view.cgi?id=313

START
a:={x in P:0<x<inf}, P!2
a=succ(x)(f+z)
:(x==SUM[z=0..inf]az^-1)
{
    x-=SUM[z=-inf...0]az^-1)
}
:(x==value)
{
     PRINT "hello"
}
else
{
     REPEAT BEGIN UNTIL value==x
     x=RANDOM()
     RESTART
}
REPEAT 666 TIMES SIGNAL "0 0 0 1 11 000"
STOP

P:prime

> Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
> expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's equation,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ET in a millennium if he is in our galaxy."  Or whatever the numbers work
> out to be.
Walter Anderson - 23 Jun 2008 21:53 GMT
Why SETI has not found evidence for extra-terrestrial intelligent life.

I've read recently that Stephen Hawking is surprised that we haven't yet
detected civilizations communicating with signals we can recognize and try
to signal back to them.

To me this is an unsurprising result. To explain why let me detail some of
my career experience. Many years ago I was on the faculty at MIT and taught
subjects relating to communications theory. I learned in detail Claude
Shannon's theories of communications. It's a shame that what he did is not
more broadly understood and appreciated. His theories of communications are
every bit as important and valid as Einstein's theories and the Second Law
of Thermodynamics.

What Shannon showed was that the way to communicate the most information,
with the fewest errors, and the least energy is to use the largest part of
the available bandwidth you can. You also modulate your signals in a way
that they look like noise. The narrow band intelligent appearing signals
SETI has been looking for matches our historical (primitive) signaling
methods, but not what an advanced civilization would be propagating. SETI
has been looking for signals that belong to an emergent technological
society, not one further along.

When you look at our own history of using the electromagnetic spectrum what
happens with a technological civilization is clear. We started more than a
century ago with "spark gaps", then controlled narrow band signals, and have
advanced to "noise-like" modulation that begins to approximate Shannon's
theory and achieve optimum results. Importantly, our primitive use of the
spectrum (what SETI has been searching for) lasts for perhaps a century or
so, and then a technological civilization such as ours "goes dark" and
cannot be detected. This is why Hawking is unable to find alien
civilizations in the signals SETI is looking for. The overlap in development
of their detectable "Amos and Andy" radio era (my short-hand for the SETI
type signaling) with the rest of the cosmos is so short that finding it is
almost impossible to uncover in signals one might be looking for.

Our "open communications" century must be overlapped with the billions of
years of the history of the Universe in which other technological
civilizations, if they exist, they must have passed through. We must also
think of more advanced communications technologies we haven't even thought
of yet: modulating neutrino beams, relaying messages over long distance
through worm hole relay stations, and other exotic possibilities that
competing technological civilizations will have had thousands, millions, or
even billions of years to achieve!

My expectation then is that we WON'T find ET. We are too primitive and ET,
if there, is too advanced. If we want a SETI that will work, we need to
start looking for the Shannon type of signals by speculating on how
civilizations more advanced than we are might propagate their signals and
look for them!

Walter M. Anderson

> Speaking of things like finding ET, has anyone done a paper on the
> expected search time to find ET given various factors in Drake's equation,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ET in a millennium if he is in our galaxy."  Or whatever the numbers work
> out to be.
Rob Dekker - 24 Jun 2008 21:41 GMT
Hi Walter,

The points that you make are valid on all counts, but only w.r.t. detecting ET via what is called 'radio leakage'.
Our current technology is not even able to detect a civilisation of our own based on radio leakage, even if it were only a few
lightyears away.
So chances of detecting 'radio leaking' ETs from radio leakage alone are very slim, and you are right that advanced communication
would be indistinguishable from noise.
Thus advanced civilisations are likely to be undetectable by us primitive creatures.

That is why most current SETI projects currently focus of finding ETI beacon signals.
These would be signals sent out deliberately by ETs, to contact other ETs in the Galaxy.
Something like a 'anybody out there?' sort of signal.
If these beacons exist, then they would presumably be set up so that we can recognize them as signals and also recognize them as
being generated by an 'intelligent' source (rather than by natural phenomena).
Even if beacons are out there (maybe even Galaxy-wide beacons), the spectrum is very large (we covered only a minor portion on the
low end and a minor portion of the high-end OSETI)), the directions in which we can look are 360deg, and the nature of the signals
(narrowband or pulsed, or both, or different altogether) is unknown.
So there may be hundreds of beacons out there that we just still do not know about.
We are just getting started.

Rob
Matt Giwer - 26 Jun 2008 08:32 GMT
> Why SETI has not found evidence for extra-terrestrial intelligent life.

    I just recreated a post of what I have been saying for a long time which
agrees with you but does NOT require any extrapolation. We are moving away
from broadcasting RF signals and towards undetectable methods simply as a
matter of efficiency and practicality in every day information transfer.

    We don't have to get exotic to realize that electrical and fiber cable gives
us much more usable bandwidth nor to realize the energy to a satellite that is
not detected by the satellite is wasted and that link needs reduce the losses
in transmission. The latter is achieved by narrower beamwidth uplink
transmissions -- larger antennas and/or higher frequencies.

    This leaves essentially radar that will go on forever.

    Civilian radar should go away real soon as it is replaced by simple radio
queries to onboard GPS equipment. I have read of experimental landings solely
on GPS although I assume there were onboard systems to handle the last few
meters that did not make the news reports.

    That leaves military radar. I do not speculate on that as it gets into the
territory of Micheal Rennie and other idealists. Right, Klatu?

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