Flowing Space 201 -- The CBB: LONG May She Wave
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Painius - 04 Sep 2005 16:42 GMT What's waving? That's been one of our questions all along, hasn't it? If light is a wave, then what exactly is waving or "being waved" as light travels through space? Nothing? or something?
Unfortunately, i still have found no satisfactory answer for this question!
Oh sure, science has an answer... photons come in tiny little "bundles" or "packets" of energy, and these little things called "quanta" (or "quantum" in the singular) will sometimes behave like waves and sometimes behave like particles of matter. And when they go through space, they behave like particles rather than waves. So there is no need for there to be anything to "be waved". So science says that the answer to the question, "What is being waved?" is "Nothing". Nope, electromagnetic energy travels through space in the same way electrons and protons travel through space. So there is no need for anything to be waving. "Nothing."
Why is this unsatisfactory? Truth is... it's NOT unsatisfactory. Not on the surface, anyway. But the deeper one digs, the more unsatisfactory this answer may become. And i have dug deep enough to make this "nothing" answer *extremely* unsatisfactory to me. Such things as "quantum nonlocality*, and the fact that Albert Einstein himself suspected that space is made of some type of energy field, suggest to me that science may be way off base when they answer "nothing".
And now we have Gordon Wolter, may he rest in peace, along with the still existing although very oldish and cootish Bill Sheppard who have the audacity to say that space IS waving. There is something there for light and other forms of electromagnetic energy to "wave". Space, just as Albert Einstein predicted, is made of a dynamic, moving energy field. And the ol' coot says this energy field is NOT electromagnetic in nature, and is made up of wavelengths which are so small that we have no technology yet capable of sensing or measuring them. He believes these wavelengths to be shorter than the Planck length of 1.6 x 10^-35 meters. This length is only 10^-20 or 0.00000000000000000001 times the diameter of a proton!
So we call this energy field the "sub-Planck energy domain". Now, while this all sounds very intriguing, fascinating, and wildly joyous to me, unfortunately it is still unsatisfying...
This *still* leaves the question fundamentally unanswered!... WHAT IS WAVING?
Yes, of COURSE i understand that the sub-Planck energy domain (or SPED for short) is being waved by light and other forms of EM. But if the SPED is some kind of energy which has wavelength, however small that wavelength may be, then this implies that the SPED itself must be waving something. So what is the SPED waving?
The SPED, with its ultra-tiny wavelength vibrations is now believed to act as a carrier wave for the lower frequency, longer wavelength EM energies like light, x rays, and so forth. However, if the SPED is a vibration which carries or is "waved" by light waves and such, what exactly carries the SPED? What precisely does the SPED wave?
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Stardust in the solar wind... all that is or ever been. All we see and all we sin... stardust in the solar wind.
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Raving Loonie - 04 Sep 2005 17:12 GMT > What's waving? That's been one of our questions all along, > hasn't it? If light is a wave, then what exactly is waving or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Unfortunately, i still have found no satisfactory answer for > this question! What is the sound of one photon, waving ?
... Sorry. I couldn't resist.
> Oh sure, science has an answer... photons come in tiny > little "bundles" or "packets" of energy, and these little things [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > This *still* leaves the question fundamentally unanswered!... > WHAT IS WAVING? Said it before. ... Will say it again. ...
Duality ?
a.k.a ... perceptual paradox
Since physics abhors the 'subjective' ...
It's caught 'stunned' and paralyzed in the glare of the BB, helpless and w/o a clue.
" Oh, the humanity of it"
Where is Darla when we really need her ?
RL
> Yes, of COURSE i understand that the sub-Planck energy > domain (or SPED for short) is being waved by light and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net Double-A - 04 Sep 2005 17:44 GMT > What's waving? That's been one of our questions all along, > hasn't it? If light is a wave, then what exactly is waving or [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net I have heard you talk at length about this sub-Planck energy domain (SPED). But isn't the idea of a Planck length such that it is considered the smallest measure of length that has any meaning? And something crossing the Planck length travelling at the speed of light does so in the Planck time, which is considered the smallest unit of time that has any meaning.
To have a wave action, you must have both length and time. You cannot describe a wave when you have no units of length or time that apply. The notion of a Planck length and time supposes that there is no length or time definable at a scale smaller than these Planck values. So how could you have any such waves carrying energy at that scale?
It seems to me that the only way you could that is to throw out the Planck limiting notions.
Double-A
Painius - 04 Sep 2005 19:00 GMT > > . . . > > field. And the ol' coot says this energy field is NOT [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > does so in the Planck time, which is considered the smallest unit of > time that has any meaning. And which is 10^-43 second, an almost inconceivably short period of time!...
0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second
> To have a wave action, you must have both length and time. You cannot > describe a wave when you have no units of length or time that apply. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Double-A Yes, Double-A --
"The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the 'quantum of length', the smallest measurement of length with any meaning."
Ref.: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae281.cfm
Key words above might be ". . . and quantum effects dominate."
This indicates that the Planck length is the smallest measurement of length with any meaning... within the context of relativity theory.
In fact, this is why scientists, when discussing the Big Bang, will sometimes say, ". . . the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10^-43 seconds." There is no meaning, no defining, no comprehending anything before that time.
When quantum effects begin to dominate, we simply don't know enough about these effects to give any length less than a Planck length, or any time less than the Planck time, any defined state.
Should we allow this to stop us from asserting that space is a field with wavelengths shorter than the Planck length? Should we instead be considering that space is not "sub-Planck" but perhaps "super-Planck" in wavelength? IOW, maybe the wavelengths which are those of dynamic, flowing space are just a wee bit *above* the Planck length?
This is certainly a good subject for discussion! I wonder why Gordon Wolter chose to fix the wavelengths of the spacial medium to shorter than the Planck length?
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Stardust in the solar wind... all that is or ever been. All we see and all we sin... stardust in the solar wind.
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 04 Sep 2005 20:10 GMT From Painius:
>I wonder why Gordon Wolter chose to fix >the wavelengths of the spacial medium
>to shorter than the Planck length? It was because the perceived "void", the smooth, unrippled "nothingness" paradoxically exhibits the properties of hyperpressurization, a fixed value of c, and the ability to carry unlimited amplitudes of EM energy. Yet we cannot "see" it; it resides below our sensorial and EM resolution. Therefore its wavelengths _must_ be below the Planck limit, the so-called "smallest length that has any meaning". Concomitantly, its energy states must rise per the maxim that the shorter the wave the higher the energy. And that's totally consistent with all observed effects of the SPED (like the high propagation speed of light, no perceptible EM amplitude limit, and the behavior of gravity which indicates a hyperpressurized state). oc
Painius - 14 Sep 2005 07:26 GMT > From Painius: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > behavior of gravity which indicates a hyperpressurized state). > oc I'm sorry but i still don't get this, Bill. Say we take for granted that all you say about hyperpressure and the other stuff is true, i don't see why the SPED's wavelengths "_must_" go below the Planck length.
We don't have the ability to sense EM radiation, let alone the type of energy radiation which flows as space, when the wavelengths are still well above the Planck length. So...
1) i don't understand why all the properties you mention would not be manifested by an energy field that has wavelengths which are a bit longer than the Planck length, and
2) it seems that insisting that these wavelengths must be below the "smallest length that has any meaning" just detracts ever so much more from the whole concept of the CBB and of flowing space.
Could we be more specific as to why these wavelengths MUST be below Planck?
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Tender hearts wear crying mask, With eyes and tears that burn, From their spot on Mars they ask, "When will they ever learn?"
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 14 Sep 2005 15:11 GMT From Painius:
>I'm sorry but i still don't get this,... i don't >see why the SPED's wavelengths
>"_must_" go below the Planck length..... > >Could we be more specific as to why >these wavelengths MUST be below >Planck? OK. If they were 'this side' of Planck, we could directly detect them, right? Plain and simple. Take the analogy of ultrasound (again). There is an upper frequency and shortest wavelength "that has any meaning" in our auditory range, right? That's the limit of our sonic resolution. Beyond that, our sonic world is pure nothingness, a smooth unrippled 'void'. Yet we see profound, abundant evidence that a vast domain of "something" exists beyond our sensory range. Bats use it to navigate. Dogs hear it easily. It can be harnessed for cleaning by cavitation. It can create a standing-wave cavitation bubble hotter than the sun (sonoluminescence). Yet we have no _direct sensory awareness_ of this domain.
Similarly, the 'void' of space displays a vast plethora of dynamic high energy, hyperpressure effects, up to and including crushing massive stars down to black holes. Yet we have no _direct EM or sensory awareness of it_. Therefore the wavelengths involved _must_ be below EM and Planck length resolution.
Like that fish at the bottom of the Marianas Trench who is a pressure dweller in his element, we, our planet, our Sun, and our cosmos are all Pressure Dwellers in the hyperpressure, sub-Planck 'Ocean' of space. oc
Painius - 14 Sep 2005 23:00 GMT > From Painius: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OK. If they were 'this side' of Planck, we could directly detect them, > right? Plain and simple. Yes and no. Theoretically, we could directly detect them, yes. However, since we have no technology to do this, then no, we cannot directly detect them even if they're just above the Planck length.
So it still seems an arbitrary decision to insist that this spacial energy field is sub-Planck in nature. However, i think i do understand Wolter's reasoning. Since the whole concept of the CBB is intrinsically unprovable in our frame of reference, why not attribute the sidebar of flowing space with a nature which is also intrinsically unprovable. And any thought of the energy field of space as having wavelengths shorter than the Planck length makes it intrinsically impossible to confirm its existence in our frame of reference.
> Take the analogy of ultrasound (again). There is an > upper frequency and shortest wavelength "that has any meaning" in our [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > dweller in his element, we, our planet, our Sun, and our cosmos are all > Pressure Dwellers in the hyperpressure, sub-Planck 'Ocean' of space. oc Keep in mind that i'm the devil's advocate here. I do like this whole idea, if only for its boldness, charm, and its being one of the few serious answers to Einstein's challenge for us to define spacetime as an energy field.
As for ultrasonics, i used to teach it in an electronics course. While the human hearing system is unable to directly sense longitudinal wavelengths higher than about 20 khz, we *do* have the technology to detect them indirectly. This cannot be said for wavelengths near, and yet longer than, the Planck length. So the analogy is wanting in this respect. When the science of physics defines the Planck length as the smallest length which has any meaning, it means "which has ANY meaning AT ALL". To me, this means that anything, any theory, which defines anything smaller than the Planck length is automatically outside the realm of science and becomes a philosophical argument at best.
There simply is no proving it. We presently have a strong circumstantial case, but insisting that space's energy field's wavelengths are sub-Planck in length supplies the jury with reasonable doubt as to the CBB theory's validity within the state of physical reality.
Could we agree that the spacial field's wavelengths might be just within the realm of science? Could we say that it's possible that the CBB flowing space sidebar is a...
"supra-Planck energy domain"?
(We could still call it the "SPED".) Usage of "Planck" would lead one to believe that the SPED *still* has very, very tiny wavelengths. And yet, using "supra-", which indicates that these minuscule wavelengths are "over" the Planck length a bit, may help place this concept of flowing space within the boundaries of possibility.
If something is likely to be impossible, then it probably is.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Tender hearts wear crying mask, With eyes and tears that burn, From their spot on Mars they ask, "When will they ever learn?"
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 15 Sep 2005 17:31 GMT From Painius:
>..it still seems an arbitrary decision to >insist that this spacial energy field is >sub-Planck in nature. Tarnation, Paine. Looks as if you're tryin' to out-do OG in preoccupation with details, minutiae and particulars(DMP).:-) However you care to define the wavelengths involved, they are clearly below EM and sensory resolution. Call the spatial medium "sub-resolution energy domain" (or SRED) if it's all that big a deal. Sheesh.
>...the whole concept of the CBB is >intrinsically unprovable in our frame of >reference,.. True. It's empirically unprovable since the bulk of it lies outside our lightcone.
>...the sidebar of flowing space... is also >intrinsically unprovable. Well, if gravity is not exactly what it appears to be and behaves as, then it's geometry, 'curvature', angels, imps and Sky Pixies all the way down. The only 'Galileo's Tool' needed to discern the patently obvious is that natural 'headset' residing between one's ears. That is, unless your headset has been pre-programmed with the void-space dogma. (Enter OG's and jb's commentary here.<g)
>To me,.. anything smaller than the >Planck length is automatically outside >the realm of science and becomes a >philosophical argument at best. >There simply is no proving it. Again, just call the wavelengths "sub-resolution" if you want. But as far as the reality of the spatial medium itself goes, it PROVES ITSELF dramatically, profoundly, and beyond question. There is no 'philosophy' involved. You may relegate the overarching CBB model to the category of philosophy if you wish, but the super energy-dense, hyperpressure, flowing spatial medium demonstrates itself by its bounty of effects. oc
Painius - 29 Sep 2005 07:07 GMT > From Painius: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tarnation, Paine. Looks as if you're tryin' to out-do OG in > preoccupation with details, minutiae and particulars(DMP).:-) And just WHAT in Tarnation is wrong with that???
Now you listen carefully, you ol' coot... the big difference between me and Owen is that *i'm* not sitting here calling you names and trying to come up with ways to belittle the CBB theory. No! I'm sitting here having a great deal of fun with this. Why? Because i happen to be intensely interested in the concept of flowing space, that's why! And when i latch onto something, i don't let go.
> However you care to define the wavelengths involved, > they are clearly below EM and sensory resolution. Call the spatial > medium "sub-resolution energy domain" (or SRED) if it's all that big a > deal. Sheesh. No, no, no... i'm *not* saying that the spacial medium cannot have wavelengths shorter than the Planck length.
All i'm saying is that if they do have wavelengths shorter than the Planck length, then it would turn out to be one of the most astounding facts of history and science. For now, i see no reason to *assume* that the wavelengths are shorter than Planck. And that if we continue to accept this postulate, then it detracts very much from the entire theory.
"SPED" rocks. Since i would like to retain the snappy, catchy, arresting, bold, conspicuous, dramatic acronym, i would like to rename it the...
Supra-Planck Energy Domain
This will place the wavelengths of spacial field energy *above* the Planck length (without losing the emphasis that they're very near to Planck length). And this will improve the scientific credibility of the CBB theory when we prove that space is an energy field which flows.
> >...the whole concept of the CBB is > >intrinsically unprovable in our frame of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > unless your headset has been pre-programmed with the void-space dogma. > (Enter OG's and jb's commentary here.<g) I'm inclined to agree with you; however, you and i share similar frames of reference which are not shared by others. Therefore, we need to create a way to measure the flow of space.
> >To me,.. anything smaller than the > >Planck length is automatically outside [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > flowing spatial medium demonstrates itself by its bounty of effects. > oc And again, i agree. And thank you for not being anal about the lengths of the energy waves. Seeing them as shorter than the Planck length is dramatic and bold, but it's also incredible and capricious. If we see the wavelengths as so short as to be almost down to the Planck length, then we are still being bold and dramatic, but the idea is no longer unbelievable.
Lately, i've been unable to spend much time here, so forgive me when i'm absent. My other activities sometimes keep me away longer than i'd like to be. I'm with you on this, Bill, and i hope you believe me. Seeing the big picture is both fun and important. And yet, i am having just as much fun with the DMP as they may apply to Wolter's CBB Theory of the Universe and the Flowing Space Model of Gravitational Force.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Ask the stars along the way, what good is Love? and the stars will say...
On this world so full of Hate, a little Love must always wait. So a little Love go a long . . . long way.
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 29 Sep 2005 11:37 GMT Hi oc Since an accelerating elevator can curve space than its a safe to say that curved space comes out of motion. Something that causes space to flow begs the question "What is it?" QM gives space a field "quantum field theory" I like that. oc why can't you use this field with its lines of force to create a gravity force for all objects and energies immerged in it? That gives answers to what is waving. Can say also space curving is the effect of the field concaving. Use the space field for inertia,and that fits so very well because inertia and gravity are the same. To have space moving(flowing) is no different than a waving (up and down motion) Bert
Double-A - 29 Sep 2005 14:35 GMT > Hi oc Since an accelerating elevator can curve space than its a safe > to say that curved space comes out of motion. Something that causes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > gravity are the same. To have space moving(flowing) is no > different than a waving (up and down motion) Bert Using accelerating space to define curvature does seem to work out rather nicely.
Double-A
Ray Vingnutte - 29 Sep 2005 15:22 GMT > > Hi oc Since an accelerating elevator can curve space than its a safe > > to say that curved space comes out of motion. Something that causes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Double-A Must be months ago now when I started looking at this flowing space and I still don't get it ;-( A localy static spacetime my little brain can cope with but I can't get a picture of it flowing in my mind.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 29 Sep 2005 18:16 GMT Hi Ray My Moby told me to relate to space flow as he feels the pressure of water. This water pressure has evolved him the same way gravity has evolved the universe. Hard for me Ray to argue with Moby for he has an answer to all my theories. He is not a parrot that is for sure. But he is getting more and more arrogant. He gives me the Italian salute more and more. Even knowing the cost of Ipswich clams have gone sky high,and its not easy picking them up at OIA now that you can't park he shows me little respect. Go figure Beert
Bill Sheppard - 29 Sep 2005 22:13 GMT From Ray V.:
>Must be months ago now when I started >looking at this flowing space and I still >don't get it ;-( . Have a gander at this little primer on the subject by Jerry Shifman. In it, he also discusses the mechanism of inertia, momentum, and gravity-acceleration equivalence. One caveat- you have to forebear his use of the archaic term 'ether'. www.river.org/~jerry/telling.htm
oc
Bill Sheppard - 29 Sep 2005 22:22 GMT From Double-A, replying to Bert:
>Using accelerating space to define >curvature does seem to work out rather >nicely. More correctly, 'curvature' is an abstract description of the *acceleration rate* of space. No acceleration= no 'curvature', ergo, no gravity. oc
OG - 30 Sep 2005 00:46 GMT > Must be months ago now when I started looking at this flowing space and > I still don't get it ;-( A localy static spacetime my little brain can > cope with but I can't get a picture of it flowing in my mind. Hi Ray, Hope you don't mind me joining in here, but one of the results of General Relativity is that whatever properties are applicable to spacetime, there are definitely no attributes by which it can be described as static or moving with respect to any observer.
Here is an address by Einstein from 1920 describing how there are certain old ideas of the ether that have to be reviewed in the light of relativity. http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html
Bill Sheppard - 29 Sep 2005 15:38 GMT Well hello Paine You sed:
>All i'm saying is that if they do have >wavelengths shorter than the Planck >length, then it would turn out to be one of >the most astounding facts of history and
>science. For now, i see no reason to >*assume* that the wavelengths are >shorter than Planck. Well it's good to see we're on the same page at least, regarding the 'sub-resolution' nature of the spatial medium.
Now's a good time to review a subject that was discussed at length here prior to the appearance of newcomers OG and jb, lest OG have a hissy and holler "now you're coming up with something new!" It's old hat and basic to the CBB model. Wolter called it 'intuitive extrapolation' (IE). It takes up where empirical observation and the 'scientific method' leave off. It looks for patterns and planforms that are consistent and recurrent throughout nature, and applies pure logic and Occam's Razor to the proposition that what's unseen is *more likely* to display the same pattern/planform as what is seen, than not. Wolter stated that IE *must* some day be recognized as a valid part of scientific enquiry if science is to evolve beyond its current void-space mentality.
The first application of IE arises soon after the reality of the spatial medium is recognized. By its visible effects, it's obviously super energy-dense and under hyperpressurization. No-brainer. But its 'granularity' resides below EM or sensory resolution, indicating a wavefield driven and sustained by *What*? What manner of 'Engine' and 'master oscillator' is capable of driving and sustaining so energetic a Field? String theory imputes some sort of vibratory underpinning to space, but remains mute on the 'Engine' driving it. String theory is utterly ignorant of the hyperpressure condition of space and the sheer enormity of its energy density.
So what does IE see as the 'Engine'/ 'Compressor'/ Master Oscillator powering and sustaining the universe? Throughout nature, at every level, a common planform is seen: every rotating system displays a common equator and two hemispheres rotating on a polar axis. From spiral galaxies to solar systems, planet-moon systems, planets, unfolding embryos (in side-on view), all the way down to the hydrogen atom, ALL display the common planform. Thus, should not the unseen macro-universe be a rotating system displaying the same planform as the myriad 'little fractals' it has spawned? IE says it should be, and by all the laws of probability, DOES.. per the illustration: http://community.webtv.net/oldcoot/ContinuousBigBang Other applications of IE pertain to the structure of the SPED itself. Seeing the high degree of order of Periodic Table and its status as the lowest energy (and longest wavelength) state of the medium, it can be asserted that the medium is *more likely* to possess the same high degree of order, than not. Wolter alluded to the octave law with its interlocking, ascending stages continuing indefinitly upward (though i would rather call it "octave-like" than 'octave law').
But as for now, intuitive extrapolation remains the stuff of 'philosophy' and speculation. And science remains a full-blown fundamentalist religion worshipping at the altar of the Void.
oc
Bill Sheppard - 30 Sep 2005 00:59 GMT From Painius:
>..we need to create a way to measure >the flow of space. Such a method already exists, and is discussed at length by Lindner, if you've read any of his stuff. Besides the 32' per second per second acceleration rate, there is the actual 11.2 km/sec inflow rate at Earth's surface (or about 7 miles a second). This is the speed an object would acquire falling from an infinite distance 'straight in' to the Earth, and is equivalent to the planet's escape velocity. See www.geocities.com/hlindner1/Writings/Space/Physics.htm and scroll down to 2.1 "Flowing space vs. General Relativity". oc
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 30 Sep 2005 18:32 GMT Hi oc Gravities acceleration of 32 feet per second rate is not the rate for the universe, Reality is its not a set rate for the Earth's surface. Different rate at poles as to the equator since gravity at the poles is half of 1% greater. Moon's rate its 6 times slower than the Earth's equator gravity speed of acceleration. So fast is the acceleration on a neutron star that a 0ne pound object dropped from 3 feet off its surface hits the surface with the force of a 1 megaton H-Bomb. Did Linder bring this out when discussing acceleration created by the almost infinite gravitational forces. Seems size an weight move at the same acceleration rate. Gravity's strength creates rate of acceleration. Drop an object 18 feet up from the Moon's surface,and it will look funny as it starts to fall. It looks like its moving in slow motion. Best to keep in mind if that objects weighs 10 lb do not let it hit your big toe for its force will be the same as three feet up here on Earth,and that can hurt. Kind of shows mass stays the same. Side way motion(inertia) gets a little funny too,but it helps prove inertia and gravity are the same. Such as 180lb man weighs 30lb on the Moon,but is just as dead hitting a big rock on the Moon at 75 mph. Beert
Bill Sheppard - 30 Sep 2005 20:29 GMT From Bert:
>Gravity's strength creates rate of >acceleration. Actually the rate of acceleration 'creates' the strength of gravity, Bert. The rate of acceleration is abstractly represented as 'curvature' in GR. The effect we call gravity is caused by accelerating flow.
>Did Lindner bring this out when >discussing acceleration created by the >almost infinite gravitational forces. Yep. Did you read the web page posted previously? oc
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 30 Sep 2005 22:24 GMT Hi oc Sorry I missed it. Beert
Bill Sheppard - 04 Sep 2005 19:12 GMT From Double-A:
>It seems to me that the only way you >could that is to throw out the Planck >limiting notions. Exactly. Just as we've thrown out the "Earth is flat" absolutism.
Further, we can disavow the notion that the upper limit of the EM spectrum defines the end of the frequency contimuum.
In the recent analogy with ultrasound, we know that a larger, much more energetic sonic spectrum lies above our normal hearing range. And we know that beyond the ultrasonic range, matter is packed with ascending states of energy density: thermal, chemical, and nuclear. By the behavior of the SPED, it's obvious it is likewise jam packed with energy states above the EM range and of shorter wavelengths than the Planck limit.
BTW, Painius' off-the-cuff expansion on the famous expression E-mc^2 was incredibly insightful. Where this little ditty emphasizes the sheer enormity of the energy density of matter, "E=mc^3" expresses the enormous energy density of space, the SPED itself. And in a rare flicker of insight, the oldcoot realized that "E=mc^4" would express the energy density of the pre-BigBang state, the heart of the Primal Particle 'Engine' itself.
Wolter would be elated with this stuff. oc
Painius - 07 Sep 2005 14:09 GMT > . . . > BTW, Painius' off-the-cuff expansion on the famous expression E-mc^2 was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Wolter would be elated with this stuff. > oc Thank you, Bill... i did that moreso just to show the effect upon the amount of energy if the "c" factor would change in any way. Fact is, cubing c, that is, using c³ in Einstein's relativity equation is not mathematically valid.
I'm not all that good at math, but i do like to dick around with it, sometimes. So for the benefit of all gentle readers who might feel the same way, let's play with it a bit...
Maybe it would help if we dug a little into the equation itself...
E = mc²
Each letter is the initial of a word representing the concept it stands for. E is the initial letter of "energy" and m of "mass". As for c, the speed of light in a vacuum, we know that it is the initial letter of "celeritas", the Latin word meaning "speed".
This is not all, however. For any equation to have meaning in physical reality, there must be an understanding as to the *units* being used. It is meaningless to speak of a mass of 2.3, for instance. It is necesary to say 2.3 grams or 2.3 pounds or 2.3 tons. Just a mass of "2.3" alone is worthless.
Now, one can choose whatever units are convenient, of course. As a matter of convention, one system used in the science of physics is to start with "grams" for mass, "centimeters" for distance, and "seconds" for time. Then we can build up, as far as possible, other units out of appropriate combinations of these three fundamental ones.
The m in Einstein's equation is expressed in grams, abbreviated gm. The c represents a speed, which is a distance traveled in a certain amount of time. Using the fundamental units, this means the number of centimeters traveled in a certain number of seconds. The units of c are therefore centimeters per second, or cm/sec.
(Notice that the "per" is represented by a fraction line. The reason for this is that to get a speed represented in lowest terms, that is, the number of centimeters traveled in *one* second, we must divide the number of centimeters traveled by the number of seconds of traveling. If we travel 24 centimeters in 8 seconds, our speed is 24 centimeters ÷ 8 seconds, or 3 cm/sec.)
One of the elegant things about the equation is that c occurs as its square. If we multiply c by c, we get c². However, it is insufficient to multiply the numerical value of c by itself. we must also multiply the *unit* of c by itself.
An example of this is like in measurements of land area. If we have a tract of land that's 60 feet by 60 feet, the area is not just 60 X 60 = 3600 feet. It is 60 feet X 60 feet, or 3600 *square* feet.
So when dealing with c² we must multiply cm/sec by cm/sec and end with the units cm²/sec² (which can be read as "centimeters squared per seconds squared").
Next, what unit do we use for E? Einstein's equation itself will tell us, if we remember to treat units as we treat any other algebraic symbols. Since E = mc², that means the unit of E can be obtained by multiplying the unit of m by the unit of c². Since the unit of m is gm and that of c² is cm²/sec², the unit of E is gm X cm²/sec². Now in algebra we represent a X b as ab, so we can run the multiplication sign out of the unit of E and make it simply gm cm²/sec² (which we read as "gram centimeter squared per second squared").
This works out really well, because long before Einstein derived his equation it had been decided that the unit of energy on the gram-centimeter-second basis had to be gm cm²/sec². Let's see why this should be...
First, we remember that the unit of speed is cm/sec. But what happens when an object changes speed? Suppose that at a given instant, an object is traveling at 1 cm/sec, while a second later it is traveling at 2 cm/sec, and another second later it's traveling at 3 cm/sec. It is, in other words, "accelerating" (also from the Latin word "celeritas").
In the above case, the acceleration is 1 centimeter per second every second, since each successive second it is going 1 centimeter per second faster. We might say that the acceleration is 1 cm/sec per second. Since we are letting the word "per" be represented by a fraction mark, this may be shown as 1 cm/sec/sec.
As we've already seen, we can treat the units by the same manipulations used for algebraic symbols. An expression like a/b/b is equivalent to a/b ÷ b, which is in turn equivalent to a/b X 1/b, which is in turn equivalent to a/b². By the same reasoning, 1 cm/sec/sec is equivalent to 1 cm/sec² and it is cm/sec² that is therefore the unit of acceleration.
And now... "May the force be with us!" <g>
A "force" is defined, in Newtonian physics, as something that will bring about an acceleration. By Newton's First Law of Motion any object in motion, left to itself, will travel at constant speed in a constant direction forever. A speed in a particular direction is referred to as a "velocity", so we might more simply say that an object in motion, left to itself, will travel at constant velocity forever. This velocity may well be zero, so that Newton's First Law also says that an object at rest, left to itself, will remain at rest forever.
As soon as a force, which may be gravitational, electromagnetic, mechanical, or anything, is applied to the object, its velocity is changed. This means that its speed of travel or its direction of travel (or both) is changed.
The quantity of force applied to an object is measured by the amount of acceleration induced, and also by the mass of the object, since the force applied to a massive object produces less acceleration than the same force applied to a light object. (We can check this for ourselves by kicking a beach ball with all our might and watching it accelerate from rest to a good speed in a very short time. Next we kick a cannon ball with all our might and OUCH!!! We observe--while hopping around in agony--what an unimpressive acceleration we have imparted to the cannon ball.)
To express this observed fact, we can use the expression, "Force equals mass times acceleration" or, to abbreviate, f = ma. Since the unit of mass is gm and the unit of acceleration is cm/sec², the unit of force is the product of the two or gm cm/sec².
Physicists grow tired of muttering "gram centimeter per second squared" every other minute, so they invented a single syllable to represent that phrase. The syllable is "dyne", from the Greek *dynamics* meaning "power".
So the expressions are the same, 1 dyne = 1 gm cm/sec². Dyne is just a breathsaver and can be defined as follows: A dyne is that amount of force which will impose upon a mass of one gram an acceleration of one centimeter per second squared.
Sokay... next, there arises the problem of "work". Work as defined by science is not what we do to bring home the bacon. To the astrophysicist, "work" is simply the motion of a body against a resting force. To lift an object against the force of gravity is work. To pull a bar of iron away against the pull of a magnet is work. To drive a nail into the wood against the resistance of friction is work, and so on.
The amount of work depends on the size of the resisting force and the distance moved against it. This can be expressed by saying, "Work equals force times distance," or by abbreviation, w = fd.
The unit of distance is cm and the unit of force is dyne. So the unit of work is dyne cm. Again, scientists invented an easy one-syllable word to express "dyne centimeters", and the new word is the vulgar sounding "erg" (did somebody burp?), from the Greek *ergon*, meaning "work".
An erg is defined as the unit of work, and 1 erg is the amount of work performed by moving an object one cm against the resisting force of one dyne.
Lest we forget that this is all based on the gram-centimeter- second system, bring to mind the fact that a dyne is equivalent to a gm cm/sec². This means that the unit of work is cm times gm cm/sec² (distance times force), and this works out to gm cm²/sec². In other words, 1 erg is the work done by imposing upon a mass of 1 gm an acceleration of 1 cm/sec² over a distance of 1 cm.
It was discovered well over a century ago that work and energy are equivalent, so that the units for one will serve as the units for the other. So the erg is also the unit of energy on the gram-centimeter-second basis.
Now shall we get back to Einstein's equation? There the units of E worked out to gm cm²/sec², and that is equivalent to ergs. Those are the units we expect for energy, and it's no coincidence. If the equation had worked out to give any other units for energy, Einstein would have sharpened his pencil and started over again, knowing he had made a mistake.
If we de-elegance the equation E = mc² by getting rid of the c², we get...
E = mcc
...and if we do this to the equation E = mc³, we then get...
E = mccc
...so cubing c just makes the = (equal) sign go away. We are obligated to do the same thing to both sides of the equation, aren't we? If we multiply one side by c, then we must do the exact same thing to the other side to be able to keep the equal sign as valid. Sorry, but this makes the equation E = mc³ not valid and, more importantly, not an expression of physical reality.
And yet, while we must continue to stick with Einstein's most elegant and valid expression E = mc², it may be a little easier to see what a tremendous difference it makes if the speed of light actually *can* be increased by one or two orders of magnitude.
As you say, Bill, this expresses the enormous energy density of space, so we would have to replace the m with an s to try and begin to find true validity to the equation. So we have...
E = sc³
Now all we need is a math/astrophysics wizard to tell us what would be the best units to use for the space/SPED factor which would keep the equal sign valid.
Perhaps the first thing to look at would be the acceleration. We know that if speed increases we have an acceleration. And the unit for this is cm/sec². So what if the acceleration increases? If in the first instant our speed is 1 cm/sec, then a second later it is 2 cm/sec, then another second later our speed is 4 cm/sec, after one more second we're going 7 cm/sec. In the first second we accelerated 1 cm/sec. Then in the next second we accelerated 2 cm/sec. And in the third second we acclerated 3 more cm/sec. Would it be correct to say that the acceleration is accelerating at a rate of 1 cm/sec³?
Lately we may have read about the accelerated acceleration of the Universe. Perhaps we need a simpler name for the term "accelerating acceleration"?
happy days and... starry starry nights!
PS -- credit for most of this post goes to the guy in the pome...
 Signature Asimov! where have you gone? Your written word goes on and on, All things become so clear to see In Asimov's Astronomy!
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 07 Sep 2005 15:29 GMT Holy mackeral there, Paine. That's an incredibly detailed synopsis, an epitome of details, mimutiae and particulars that would do even OG proud. :-) Musta been good coffee. <g But let's look at it from the 'big picture' perspective in a way that any Joe Schmoe unschooled in math can relate to. The "equations" are simply expressions. Expressions emphasizing enormity of energy density. Period. No need for the fine intricacies and arcana. The universally known "E=mc^2" is simply an expression of the energy density of matter. "E=mc^3" emphasizes the energy density of the SPED. "E=mc^4" emphasizes the energy density of the pre-BB state. They may not be "technically correct" to the math purist, but they ARE correct in communicating the 'big picture' meaning to the average Joe. Wolter, BTW, never considered 'E=mc^2' so much an "equation" but simply an expression of enormity.
>Lately we may have read about the >accelerated acceleration of the Universe. >Perhaps we need a simpler name for the >term "accelerating acceleration"?
Well, for the umpteenth time, :-), the perceived "accelerating expansion" of the universe is predicated on the void-space premise. To wit, since there is "no medium", c is invariant all the way back to the instant of the BigBang. But when the reality of the SPED is recognized, there is a _cosmological density gradient_ (a drop in the PDT and value of c) that enters the picture _as seen from the 'outside' referance frame_. This c-drop _as seen from the external frame_ is what Wolter called 'c-dilation'. But from here 'inside', we see its artifact as excessive dimming of the most ancient light (just as seen in the recent HST 1a supernova data) which has been (mis)interpreted as "ever-accelerating expansion" of the cosmos. This becomes a grand illusion when the cosmological density gradient is recognized. The expansion curve is swung away from "ever-accelerating expansion" toward DEcelerating expansion and a closed universe. This is consistent with the CBB model. oc
Painius - 07 Sep 2005 17:01 GMT > Holy mackeral there, Paine. That's an incredibly detailed synopsis, an > epitome of details, mimutiae and particulars that would do even OG > proud. :-) Hey! Ya don't have to get NASTY, now, do ya? <g>
> Musta been good coffee. <g Like i said, i was just dickin' around. And yes! (re: the coffee)
> But let's look at it from the 'big picture' > perspective in a way that any Joe Schmoe unschooled in math can relate [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > expansion and a closed universe. This is consistent with the CBB model. > oc That last one was just to show that i'm not the only one thinking about "accelerating acceleration", that's all. And also to emphasize that there is no other, shorter name for this type of thing. So it seems to be a very young idea.
And "lest we forget", in science "acceleration" includes both acceleration AND deceleration. For example, the questioned DEceleration of starlight by the gravity field of the Sun is spoken of technically as an "acceleration" (in this case a negative acceleration, but in the case of the mainstream idea of expansion of the Universe, decidely believed to be an accelerating positive acceleration).
So you see?
You have fun with the big picture, and i have just as much fun with the details, minutiae and particulars. Match made in heaven?
Sokay, don't expect to swap spit in the shower. <g>
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Asimov! where have you gone? Your written word goes on and on, All things become so clear to see In Asimov's Astronomy!
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Double-A - 07 Sep 2005 19:08 GMT > > Holy mackeral there, Paine. That's an incredibly detailed synopsis, an > > epitome of details, mimutiae and particulars that would do even OG [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net Paine,
I thought that it was just the expansion of the universe that was supposed to be accelerating, not its acceleration that was accelerating.
But in any case the acceleration of acceleration is called "jerk". There are also names for the acceleration of jerk, and so on, which become increasingly humorous and less official. They are also called the third, forth, etc. derivatives of position.
If you don't believe me, see the following:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html
Double-A
Painius - 07 Sep 2005 19:53 GMT > Paine, > > I thought that it was just the expansion of the universe that was > supposed to be accelerating, not its acceleration that was > accelerating. Just one of many twists to the more recent observational clues...
http://tinyurl.com/82j36
> But in any case the acceleration of acceleration is called "jerk". > There are also names for the acceleration of jerk, and so on, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Double-A Thank you, AA! I think you've outdone Newton...
You have just invented the jerculus! <g>
It appears to be jerks, snaps, crackles and pops ...all the way down.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Asimov! where have you gone? Your written word goes on and on, All things become so clear to see In Asimov's Astronomy!
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Double-A - 08 Sep 2005 11:04 GMT > > Paine, > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net I liked the term "snatch" for the rate of change of "yank"!
Obviously these are very advanced physics terms, so don't feel bad if some you haven't heard them before. Double-A
Double-A - 08 Sep 2005 09:17 GMT > > . . . > > BTW, Painius' off-the-cuff expansion on the famous expression E-mc^2 was [quoted text clipped - 256 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net Paine,
Your analysis of the units in E=mc^2 was most informative. I guess you would call that dimensional analysis. But that still doesn't explain the more profound reasons behind the famous equation. For instance, why should it be different than the equation for kinetic energy, which is stated K_e = 1/2 mv^2 ?
Double-A
Painius - 08 Sep 2005 14:56 GMT > > "Bill Sheppard" <oldcoot@webtv.net> wrote in message... > news:16395-431B391D-523@storefull-3177.bay.webtv.net... [quoted text clipped - 259 lines] > Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net Paine,
Your analysis of the units in E=mc^2 was most informative. I guess you would call that dimensional analysis. But that still doesn't explain the more profound reasons behind the famous equation. For instance, why should it be different than the equation for kinetic energy, which is stated K_e = 1/2 mv^2 ?
Double-A
 Signature happy days and... starry starry nights!
-- Tender is my love for thee Oh star so close at hand, Warming those so dear to me As we lay on the sand...
It's so easy to believe In all this beachin' fun, That some day you and i will be-- Altogether one.
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Painius - 08 Sep 2005 20:29 GMT > Paine, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Double-A Thank you, Double-A!
The reason the relativity equation is different is because it actually *contains* the kinetic energy formula in its initial derivation. As you will see, e = mc² is a "special case" of the kinetic energy equation.
Here are some brief excerpts from Asimov's _Understanding Physics Vol. II_...
During the 19th century, scientists were increasingly convinced that mass could neither be created nor destroyed (the Law of Conservation of Mass). To Lorentz and Einstein, however, mass was created as velocity increased, and it was destroyed as velocity decreased. To be sure, the changes in mass are vanishingly small at all ordinary velocities, but they are there. Where then, does created mass come from, and where does destroyed mass go?
Let's begin by considering a body of a given mass (m) subjected to a given force (f). Under such conditions the body undergoes an acceleration (a), and from Newton's second law of motion one can state that a = f/m. The presence of an acceleration means that the velocity of the body is increasing, but in the old Newtonian view this did not affect the mass of the body, which remained constant. If the force is also viewed as remaining constant, then f/m was constant and a, the acceleration, was also constant. As a result of such a constant acceleration, the velocity of the body (in the Newtonian view) would increase indefinitely and would reach any value you care to name--if you wait long enough.
In the Einsteinian universe, however, an observer measuring the velocity of an object under a continuing constant force can never observe it to exceed the velocity of light in a vacuum. So, though its velocity increases under the influence of a constant force, that velocity increases more and more slowly, and as the velocity approaches that of light, it increases exceedingly slowly. In short, the acceleration of a body under the influence of a constant force decreases as the velocity increases and becomes zero when the velocity reaches that of light.
(from Paine: hmm, a "decelerating acceleration" or... a "negative jerk"?)
But, again from Newton's second law of motion, the mass of a body is equal to the force exerted upon it divided by the acceleration produced by that force--that is, m = f/a. If the force is constant and the acceleration decreases with velocity, then a decreases with velocity while f does not; consequently, f/a increases with velocity. And this means, since m = f/a, that mass increases with velocity. (Thus, the increase of mass with velocity can be deduced from Einstein's assumption of the measured constancy of the velocity of light in a vacuum.)
When a body is subjected to a force, it gains kinetic energy, which is equal to one half its mass times the square of its velocity (e = 1/2mv²). In the Newtonian view this increase in kinetic energy results only from the increase in velocity, for mass is considered unchanging. In the Einsteinian view the increase in kinetic energy is the result of an increase in both velocity and mass.
Where mass is not involved in energy changes (as in the Newtonian view) it is natural to think of mass as something apart from energy and to think that, on the one hand, there is a law of conservation of energy, and on the other, a law of conservation of mass, and that the two are independent.
Where mass changes and is thus intimately involved in energy changes (as in the Einsteinian view), it is natural to think of mass and energy as different aspects of the same thing, so a law of conservation of energy would include mass. (To make that perfectly clear, in view of our previous convictions, we sometimes speak of the "Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy", but the word "mass" is not really needed.)
Motion does not create mass in any real sense. Mass is merely one aspect of a general increase in kinetic energy gained from the force that is maintained by the expenditure of energy elsewhere in the system.
But now suppose the law of conservation of energy (including mass) remains valid in the relativistic universe (and so far it seems to have done so). According to this law, although energy can be neither created nor destroyed, it can be changed from one form to another. This would seem to mean that a certain quantity of mass could be converted into a certain quantity of other forms of energy such as heat, for instance, and that a certain quantity of a form of energy such as heat might, conceivably, be converted into a certain quantity of mass. And this, indeed, Einstein insisted upon.
This equivalence of mass and energy announced by Einstein in his 1905 paper was of great use to the physicists of the time. The discovery of radioactivity nine years earlier had revealed a situation in which energy seemed to be created endlessly out of nowhere. Once the special theory of relativity pointed the way, scientists searched for disappearing mass and found it.
It may seem surprising that no one noticed the interchange of mass and energy until Einstein pointed it out theoretically. The reason for that rests with the nature of the equivalence--in the determination of exactly how much energy is equivalent to how much mass.
(from Paine: at this point Isaac goes into a detailed talk about the FitzGerald ratio and Newton's binomial theorem, which i will spare you. He shows how when the velocity v equals the speed of light c, an endless series of terms reach their maximum values. From the third term on, the dropoff in value of each term is large enough so as not to be considered for practical purposes. We will emerge at the spot where Asimov has derived an equation which shows that the reciprocal of the FitzGerald ratio is equal to 1 + v²/2c². This makes the FitzGerald ratio very accurate even at extremely high velocities. Please keep in mind that my reader will not allow subscripts, so in "m0" and "m1" in the next part, the "0" and the "1" are subscripts. Asimov continues by "returning" the reader to the Lorentz mass relationship equation...)
. . .which states that the mass (m1) of a body in motion is equal to its rest-mass (m0) divided by the FitzGerald ratio. This is equivalent to saying that m1 is equal to m0 multiplied by the reciprocal of the FitzGerald ratio; therefore, using the new expression for that reciprocal (1 + v²/2c²), we can write the mass relationship as follows:
m1 = m0(1 + v²/2c²) = m0 + m0v²/2c²
The increase in mass as a result of motion is m1 - m0 and we can call this difference simply m. If we solve the above equation for m1 - m0 (that is, for m), we find that:
m = m0v²/2c² = 1/2m0v²/c²
The expression 1/2m0v², found in the right-hand portion of this equation, happens to be the value of the kinetic energy of the moving body (kinetic energy is equal to 1/2mv²) if it possesses its rest-mass. Actually, it possesses a slightly higher mass due to its motion, but except for extremely high velocities, that actual mass is only very slightly higher than the rest-mass--so little higher in fact that we can let 1/2m0v² equal its kinetic energy and be confident of a high degree of accuracy. If we let this kinetic energy be represented as e, then the equation above becomes:
m = e/c²
Remember that m represents the gain of mass with motion. Since very rapid motion, representing a very high value of e (the kinetic energy), produces only a very small increase in mass, we see quite plainly that a great deal of ordinary energy is equivalent to a tiny quantity of mass. The above equation, which by clearing fractions can be written as the much more familiar:
e = mc²
can be used to calulate this equivalence.
(From Paine: So you see, AA, the relativity equation is a "special case" of the kinetic energy equation for use when you want to find the *change* in mass due to its motion. Next, Asimov gets really profound as he applies numbers to the equation! Awesome!)
In the cgs system, where all the units are in terms of centimeters, grams and seconds, the value of c (the speed of light in a vacuum) is 30,000,000,000 centimeters per second. The value of c² is therefore 900,000,000,000,000,000,000 cm²/sec². If we set the value of m at 1 gram, then mc² is equal to 900,000,000,000,000,000,000 gm cm²/sec²; or, since 1 gm cm²/sec² is defined as an "erg", 1 gram of mass is equal to 900,000,000,000,000,000,000 ergs of energy.
One kilocalorie is equal to 41,860,000,000 ergs. This means that 1 gram of mass is equivalent to 21,500,000,000 kilocalories. The combustion of a gallon of gasoline liberates about 32,000 kilocalories. The mass equivalent of this amount of energy is 32,000/21,500,000,000 or 1/670,000 of a gram. This means that in the combustion of a full gallon of gasoline, the evolution of energy in the form of heat, light, the mechanical motion of pistons, and so on, involves the total loss to the system of 1/670,000 of a gram of mass. It is small wonder that chemists and physicists did not notice such small mass changes until they were told to look for them.
On the other hand, if whole grams of mass could be converted wholesale into energy, the vast concentration of energy produced would have tremendous effects. The results are the "nuclear bombs" that now threaten all mankind with destruction and the "nuclear reactors" that offer it new hope for the future.
Furthermore, the relativity equation, e = mc², offered the first satisfactory explanation of the source of energy of the Sun and other stars. In order for the Sun to radiate the vast energies it does, it must lose 4,600,000 tons of mass each second. This is a vast quantity by human standards but is insignificant to the Sun. At this rate it can continue to radiate in essentially unchanged fashion for billions of years.
The "Einstein equation", e = mc², as you see, is derived entirely from the assumption of the constant measured velocity of light, and the mere existence of nuclear bombs is fearful evidence of the special theory of relativity. It is no wonder that of all equations in physics, e = mc² has most nearly become a household word among the general population of non-physicists.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Tender is my love for thee Oh star so close at hand, Warming those so dear to me As we lay on the sand...
It's so easy to believe In all this beachin' fun, That some day you and i will be-- Altogether one.
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 04 Sep 2005 21:51 GMT From Painius:
>...if the sub-Planck energy domain (or >SPED for short) is some kind of energy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >which carries or is "waved" by light >waves and such, what exactly carries the >SPED? What precisely does the SPED
>wave? Whoa there for a moment, hoss. Here you ARE gettin' into philosophy and 'way ahead of the issue at hand. This falls under the same umbrella as those questions like "what is the mechanism of nonlocality?", "what lies at the 'ends' of eternity and infinity?" and "what is the source of the SCO?"
But just to speculate and 'philosophize' for a moment, extrapolating from all that is currently observable, just as the EM spectrum and Periodic Table are a 'dustbunny' of the SPED, the SPED is a 'dustbunny' of a domain of even higher energy-densities / shorter wavelengths. Further, what kind of wave-propagation speeds might one expect to find in these higher-energy domains? Compared to our meager "c", it seems like they would have to be many, many orders of magnitude higher. And this *might* be a clue to the mechanism of quantum nonlocality. 'Philosophy' mode off. :-) oc
Painius - 07 Sep 2005 16:35 GMT > From Painius: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > nonlocality. 'Philosophy' mode off. :-) > oc It reminds me of the infinity reflections of barbershop mirrors. As much as it smacks of Zeno's Paradox, i still like the idea. I'd wager few others will, though.
So maybe quantum theory is doing with nonlocality what all of us used to do with light? Until the Ole Rømer measurement, almost everybody thought that light traveled instantaneously from one place to another. Maybe nonlocality isn't instantaneous, but just *appears* to be so? Maybe it's only "functionally" instantaneous? <g>
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Asimov! where have you gone? Your written word goes on and on, All things become so clear to see In Asimov's Astronomy!
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
Bill Sheppard - 07 Sep 2005 17:00 GMT From Painius:
>So maybe quantum theory is doing with >nonlocality what all of us used to do with >light? Until the Ole Rømer
>measurement, almost everybody thought >that light traveled instantaneously from
>one place to another. Maybe nonlocality >isn't instantaneous, but just *appears* to >be so? Maybe it's only "functionally" >instantaneous? <g> Exactly.
Same with the instantaneity of gravity, or 'flow of gravitational charge', as 'ol Isaac Newton knew from the outset (with apologies to Uncle Albert). oc
Painius - 07 Sep 2005 20:16 GMT > From Painius: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > charge', as 'ol Isaac Newton knew from the outset (with apologies to > Uncle Albert). oc This then begs the question, "How fast is it?" We also need to look at a further modification of Einstein's formula...
E = sg³
...where g is the speed of nonlocality. I used "g" in Einstein's honor. It's for "geschwindigkeit", which if i'm not mistaken is German for "speed".
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Asimov! where have you gone? Your written word goes on and on, All things become so clear to see In Asimov's Astronomy!
Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 04 Sep 2005 23:27 GMT Hi Painius When a butter fly flaps its wings in China we should feel the waves it makes. Who can say where the wiggling wave ends. With that thought we have to say it goes to infinity,but weakens with the math of the inverse square law. Seems Painius everything in the universe wiggles with the possible exception of the graviton. Beert
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