Is the universe eternal?

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Info Plumber - 30 Jul 2004 05:41 GMT

I think not, but I recognize there are other well reasoned opinions on this
issue and I welcome your rebuttal to my specific points or any points of
your own. My two main reasons for thinking this way are:

1) The second law of thermodynamics precludes an eternal universe because
according to the 2LOT, an eternal universe would necessarily have suffered a
"heat death" during some finite period of its existence, therefore either
the 2LOT is wrong, or we live in a finite Universe with a discrete
historical beginning.

2) The Big Bang is currently the most widely accepted and (IMHO) best
supported of all the cosmological origin theories, but even so, it has many
difficulties and has begun to be infected with the disease of "special
pleading" that many scientific theories succumb to, for example the
postulation of first dark matter, and then dark energy in an effort to save
the BB theory and now the latest hubble discoveries are casting serious
doubt on the existence of dark energy, leaving the current cosmological
foundation in a serious state of chaos. ALL of the other theories with any
kind of legitimate following are worse off than the BB in this respect. This
leads me to the reasonable conclusion that either a) we don't really
understand the laws of physics, or b) there is a supernatural reality that
is the source of this universe's creation (including its physical laws).

With apologies to Cantor, Lowenheim-Skolem, etc., even the concept of
infinity can not be adequately dealt with mathematically, let alone in the
real physical world. Here is a simple example:

1. The set of integers is infinite (by definition).

2. Remove all the even numbered members from the set and what remains is an
infinite set.

3. Put back the even numbers, remove the odd numbers and what remains is
still an infinite set.

4. Now remove the even numbers, then remove the odd numbers and you now have
a NULL set!

5. All of these statements can be proven true:
a) infinity = infinity
b) infinity > infinity
c) infinity < infinity
d) infinity - infinity = infinity
e) infinity - infinity = 0
f) infinity + infinty = infinity
g) infinity + infinity = 0
h) infinity = 0

6. Sure you can devise mathematical techniques to isolate the "infinite
variable" in the same way that you isolate imaginary numbers (square root of
minus 1), but you can no more formulate a mental picture of an infinite
number of integers than you can formulate a mental picture of the square
root of minus 4.

Our finite minds are unable to grasp even the concept of infinity.

to be continued, I am sure ...

IP

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Dont Be Fuelish - 30 Jul 2004 19:43 GMT

I think you are right that it isn't eternal, but I want you to
know that compared to me it is eternal. As the Grateful
Dead sang many years ago, "such a long time to be gone,
and a short time to be here."

Tian Harter

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http://tian.greens.org
7/10/04: I saw Michael Moore's Farenheit 911 at the
showing that got out just as 7/11/04 began. I handed
out some "BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW" fliers to
the other people in the crowd as they exited the theater.

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Mad Scientist - 30 Jul 2004 22:02 GMT

> I think not, but I recognize there are other well reasoned opinions on this
> issue and I welcome your rebuttal to my specific points or any points of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the 2LOT is wrong, or we live in a finite Universe with a discrete
> historical beginning.

Depends on your definition of 'eternal' and 'infinite' I guess.
Everyone has their interpretation and mine goes something like this.
You hit the nail on the head with describing Thermodynamics. No
disagreement there whatsoever. However what you miss is what could be
described as another law of thermodynamics, a higher dimensional law.
Centropy - the electrification of matter and energy. Entropy is known
as the breakdown of matter and energy whereby the loss in the system is
entropy. The Higher Evolution uses centropy to counteract the natural
Electromagnetic spectrum rhythms which would if left alone, would
destroy all matter energy relationships in the universe.

> 2) The Big Bang is currently the most widely accepted and (IMHO) best
> supported of all the cosmological origin theories, but even so, it has many
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> understand the laws of physics, or b) there is a supernatural reality that
> is the source of this universe's creation (including its physical laws).

I will go with your last point, and in fact I can offer this insight.
According to them, our universe (meaning our galaxy) began on a spiral
which started as a singularity, which proceeded out of a higher
template. Most of the universe is invisible, so I don't quite
understand when you say that Hubble discoveries are casting doubt on
this. You also have to remember that Astronomy is not the same science
as Cosmology although both enjoy the other science, they really have
different goals and focus.

> With apologies to Cantor, Lowenheim-Skolem, etc., even the concept of
> infinity can not be adequately dealt with mathematically, let alone in the
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> IP

What mankind fails to understand is the real universe is
multidimensional. No matter how many times we say it, it is still hard
to understand because we exist inside of the lowest dimensions. There
is no farther down the scale. We are at the bottom. Consciousness is
most definitely infinite and math proves this because mathematics is a
mental dimension, just as valid as genetics is one level or dimension
with its own set of rules and parameters.

'Eternity' is really 'the eternal present', where there is no such thing
as past or future. Only the present. And 'time' as well as 'space' are
merely determined by the direction and flow of matter and light. The
'face form' of Man is actually the exact same 'face' of the Higher
Evolution. No matter who you look at, you are looking at an 'image
space' of the Higher Mind. Our 'image' is fashioned from the higher
image or Mind but mankind fell from the original program. This program
gives a memory function to the universe also seen as a 'magnetic' field
that is contained within the architecture and blueprint of pyramidal
forms and interrelationships. Hence on a galactic scale, there are
central cosmic pyramids, on a stellar scale, there are solar pyramids,
on a planetary scale, there are geopyramids, and on a biological scale
there are cellular pyramids (the blood cell, brain cell for example) and
on a molecular scale, there are pyramids and even on the sub-atomic
scale, there is the pyramidal relationships seen in the composition of
fundamentals particles. The photon is also a pyramid or what is now
just becoming known as 'conic' sections of light.

With all that in mind, various scales of time clocks are coded through
colors into all these pyramidal grids. This is why finger cells or toe
cells live for about 4 hours, where the brain cell lives for about 70 to
80 years. Eye cells can literally be watched seperating and healing and
growing they grow so fast! Humanity could be seen as a 'finger cell' or
'toe cell' to the Higher Evolution in terms of our lifespan. The Higher
Evolution do not truly 'live forever' but must go into the presence of
the Supreme Being for more 'life-light' otherwise they too would perish.
However compared to us, their lifespan can seem to be Eternal.

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Space Forum / Astronomy / July 2004

Is the universe eternal?