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Space Forum / Astronomy / July 2004Two astronomy questions
1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? 2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? (center? outer edge?) Thanks, -Tom Hello Tom, > 1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? I'm not sure what exactly is your question. If you are asking if the bright stars that form the constellations lie in our galaxy, the answer is "yes". If you are asking if the constellations lie only or predominantly on the band of the night sky called the Milky Way, the answer is "no". > 2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? > I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? > (center? outer edge?) This page will give you the answer you are looking for: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Milky%20Way http://img.thefreedictionary.com/wiki/a/a6/Milky.way.arp.250pix.jpg Regards, - Alex > Hello Tom, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > predominantly on the band of the night sky called the Milky Way, the > answer is "no". Yes, I was wondering if the constellations were within a portion of the Milky Way. Would some fainter stars within our view be outside the MW alltogether, as in, on their own in the vast void?. > > 2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? > > I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Milky%20Way > http://img.thefreedictionary.com/wiki/a/a6/Milky.way.arp.250pix.jpg A pic is worth a thousand words. Thanks. -Tom >> Yes, I was wondering if the constellations were within a portion of > the Milky Way. Would some fainter stars within our view be outside > the MW alltogether, as in, on their own in the vast void?. Everything you see is in our own galaxy, except for one specific "star" which is actually the Andromeda galaxy.. Keep in mind also that, with us being inside our own galaxy, most of the stars we see are in the general neighborhood. For example, the 3 stars that make up Orion's Belt aren't near each other, but they're all under 2000 light years or so away. The galaxy is some 100,000+ light years across, so, it's rather like being in a forest, we're not seeing the trees on the far side. Also, keep in mind that when you see "maps" of our galaxy, they're often largely theoretical. We don't really know the exact shape of the galaxy, being inside of it. Looking towards the core it gets harder to distinguish individual stars, and we don't see what's on the other side of that. There's an estimated 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy, so obviously we're only seeing a fraction of that when we look in the night sky (or, what we're seeing as one star is really multiple stars). The Andromeda galaxy is one that we can see and surmise, in all likelihood, our galaxy is shaped a lot like that.... we're an estimated 25,000-28,000 light years from the center of the galaxy. > 1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? The constellations have no astronomical significance. They are just arbitrary sections of the night sky. The stars in a constellation can be any distance from the earth (the closest star is about 4 light years away), and the stars in a constellation are unrelated to each other and will be a mixture of near and far objects. The only reason they are in the same constellation is that they are in the same rough direction from Earth. Its like you standing on your front porch and seeing your neighbour's kitchen light, the lights from a shopping centre 1 km away, and the lights of the city 10kms away and calling them a constellation because they are all in the same direction. Indeed, a lot of the objects we see as stars are not even really stars, they are nebula (collections of stars). Having said that, with the naked eye there are only 3 objects that you can see which are not part of the milky way - two sattelite galaxies of the Milky Way called the Magellenic clouds, visible only in the southern hemisphere, which look a bit like little bits of the Milky Way, and the Andromeda galaxy which looks like an extremely faint star and is visible only in the Northern Hemisphere. So at a practical level all of the objects that you can see at night that look like stars (with one tiny exception) are contained in the Milky Way. - > > 2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? > I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? > (center? outer edge?) > Thanks, > -Tom http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/messier/more/mw.html The Milky Way is about 50,000 light years in radius (depending upon how you define the edge); we lie about 26,000 kms from the centre. Peter Webb Peter Webb posted: > Having said that, with the naked eye there are only 3 objects that you can > see which are not part of the milky way - two sattelite galaxies of the > Milky Way called the Magellenic clouds, visible only in the southern > hemisphere, which look a bit like little bits of the Milky Way, and the > Andromeda galaxy which looks like an extremely faint star and is visible > only in the Northern Hemisphere. Actually, there are a few other objects which are not part of the Milky Way's disk but which are visible to the unaided eye under good to excellent conditions. The brightest globular star clusters (which, like the Magellanic Clouds orbit the Milky Way) such as M13, M22, M4, 47 Tucanae (NGC 104), and Omega Centauri are all visible to the unaided eye from a dark sky site. Another galaxy visible to the unaided eye is the relatively nearby spiral galaxy M33, which is fairly easy to see under 6th magnitude skies (ie: you can see stars as faint as 6th magnitude). Under extremely good conditions from dark moderate altitude sites, the more distant spiral galaxy M81 (mag. 6.9) can sometimes be glimsed as a very faint star. As for the Andromeda galaxy, it is visible from both the Northern hemisphere *and* large parts of the Southern hemisphere, including Australia, southern Africa, and the northern 2/3rds of South America. It appears as a fuzzy star of about the 4th magnitude, which isn't exactly all that bright, but isn't exactly a very faint star either. Clear skies to you.  SignatureDavid W. Knisely KA0CZC@navix.net Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/ ********************************************** * Attend the 11th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY * * July 18-23, 2004, Merritt Reservoir * * http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org * ********************************************** >>1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? > > The constellations have no astronomical significance. They have immense archaeoastronomical significance. They are just > arbitrary sections of the night sky. The stars in a constellation can be any > distance from the earth (the closest star is about 4 light years away), and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > same direction. Indeed, a lot of the objects we see as stars are not even > really stars, they are nebula (collections of stars). The Zodiac is a map of the Milky Way and its galactic 'arms'. > Having said that, with the naked eye there are only 3 objects that you can > see which are not part of the milky way - two sattelite galaxies of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So at a practical level all of the objects that you can see at night that > look like stars (with one tiny exception) are contained in the Milky Way. > - > > >>2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? >>I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? >>(center? outer edge?) At the very outer edge on the spiral arm of Sagittarius, even though the magnetic field of the Sun points in the direction of the Norhern Cross or Swan, and the earth's magnetic pole points towards the Polar star surrounded by Ursa Major, Ursa Minor and Draco. The earth can actually be seen as existing in the exact center between an Orion-Sirius conjunction with Ursa Major and Draco. Some stars which appear as being inside our galaxy are in fact outside the edge of the Milky Way and some stars which appear in our galaxy are in fact not even inside the 'known' universe from a metagalactic superstring point of view. Sagittarius could be seen as representing the galactic arm our solar system resides in at the very far edge. The clock which governs all time clocks in terms of solar evolution in our local universe (our galaxy) can be seen as the Pleiades whereby that super globular cluster of star systems is the stellar nursery which gave birth to our sun. >>Thanks, >>-Tom [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Peter Webb > >>1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > The Zodiac is a map of the Milky Way and its galactic 'arms'. Incorrect > >>2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? > >>I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in fact not even inside the 'known' universe from a metagalactic > superstring point of view. Which stars would those be, pray tell? >>The Zodiac is a map of the Milky Way and its galactic 'arms'. > > Incorrect According to you maybe, but no one says you understand higher cosmology. >>in fact not even inside the 'known' universe from a metagalactic >>superstring point of view. > > Which stars would those be, pray tell? See the above, and than you will understand why you don't deserve to know. > >>The Zodiac is a map of the Milky Way and its galactic 'arms'. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > See the above, and than you will understand why you don't deserve to know. I'm sorry, but what does my current understanding (or lack thereof) have to do with whether or not I "deserve" to know? > The clock which governs all > time clocks in terms of solar evolution in our local universe (our > galaxy) can be seen as the Pleiades whereby that super globular cluster > of star systems is the stellar nursery which gave birth to our sun. In addition to the mistakes pointed out by Paul ... The Pleiades are NOT a globular cluster. >>The clock which governs all >>time clocks in terms of solar evolution in our local universe (our [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The Pleiades are NOT a globular cluster. Pointing out 'mistakes' is all you guys prove you are good for. Not that they are actual mistakes. Globular clusters, super globular cluster, star cluster have historical definitions which have altered over time. Sure globular clusters using today's definitions would not include the Pleiades star cluster, but I am not working from your primitive understanding of cosmology and astrophysics. > > "Mad Scientist" <through@thelooking.glass> wrote in message news:%dfOc.1315502$Ar.315877@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > >>The clock which governs all > >>time clocks in terms of solar evolution in our local universe (our [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > include the Pleiades star cluster, but I am not working from your > primitive understanding of cosmology and astrophysics. I'm sure this has been explained to you, as you almost acknowledged it in another thread, but pointing out mistakes is how the scientific method works. Any theory is only as good as the inability of the facts to "point out mistakes." P.S. In the future, please use our "primitive" definitions so we all understand terms like "globular cluster" to mean the same thing. It makes communication much easier. >I'm sure this has been explained to you, as you almost acknowledged it >in another thread, but pointing out mistakes is how the scientific [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >understand terms like "globular cluster" to mean the same thing. It >makes communication much easier. Personally, I've made communication easier by kill-filing the arrogant idiot, so he can go back to saying "do you want fries with that ?" >>I'm sure this has been explained to you, as you almost acknowledged it >>in another thread, but pointing out mistakes is how the scientific [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>understand terms like "globular cluster" to mean the same thing. It >>makes communication much easier. *********************************************** Jonathan S.: >Personally, I've made communication easier by kill-filing the arrogant >idiot, so he can go back to saying "do you want fries with that ?" ******************** *************** Only if he has quite a few weeks of intensive training... --Mac > Peter Webb wrote: > > >>1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? The constellations have no astronomical significance. > They have immense archaeoastronomical significance. > > They are just arbitrary sections of the night sky. The stars in a constellation can be any distance from the earth (the closest star is about 4 light years away), and the stars in a constellation are unrelated to each other and will be a mixture of near and far objects. The only reason they are in the same constellation is that they are in the same rough direction from Earth. Its like you standing on your front porch and seeing your neighbour's kitchen light, the lights from a shopping centre 1 km away, and the lights of the city 10kms away and calling them a constellation because they are all in the same direction. Indeed, a lot of the objects we see as stars are not even really stars, they are nebula (collections of stars). ****************** ************* The Zodiac is a map of the Milky Way and its galactic 'arms'. ********************** ******* Incorrect **************** Ø >>2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? > >>I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? (center? outer edge?) MAD SCIENTIST: > Some stars which appear as being inside our galaxy are in fact outside > the edge of the Milky Way and some stars which appear in our galaxy are in fact not even inside the 'known' universe from a metagalactic > superstring point of view. **************** *********** Paul L.: Which stars would those be, pray tell? Yet, More MAD SCIENTIST ??: The clock which governs all time clocks in terms of solar evolution in our local universe (our galaxy) can be seen as the Pleiades whereby that super globular cluster of star systems is the stellar nursery which gave birth to our sun. ============= > > In addition to the mistakes pointed out by Paul ... The Pleiades are NOT a globular cluster. Yet More MAD SCIENTIST: > Pointing out 'mistakes' is all you guys prove you are good for. Not > that they are actual mistakes. Globular clusters, super globular > cluster, star cluster have historical definitions which have altered > over time. Sure globular clusters using today's definitions would not > include the Pleiades star cluster, but I am not working from your Ø primitive understanding of cosmology and astrophysics. ***************** ************* PAUL l.: (( being very patient with a supercilious twit covering his ignorance with balderdash )) I'm sure this has been explained to you, as you almost acknowledged it in another thread, but pointing out mistakes is how the scientific method works. Any theory is only as good as the inability of the facts to "point out mistakes." P.S. In the future, please use our "primitive" definitions so we all understand terms like "globular cluster" to mean the same thing. It makes communication much easier. ******************* *************** Just about anytime one suspects that even Mad Scientist can not delve deeper into his antics, he manages to surprise again. He's just about in the category of Darla and Whats-her-Name(>), the one channeling all of that information aobut the on-rushing Planet X that never was, with her explanations for our "primitive understanding of cosmology and astrophysics" --- which if often a clear sign of just how very "special" such people really are. ---Mac ---Mac Why whenever I tell a specific individual they are 'primitive', someone else who I am not talking to jumps in and screams 'we'? >>Peter Webb wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > ---Mac > ---Mac >1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? Depends on what you mean by constellations: The formal definition for each is a set of boundaries on the celestial sphere (independent of distance) and everything within those boundaries (in and out of the Milky Way) is part of the constellation. If you mean the stars that are used to define the "stick figures" frequently associated with the constellations, then I believe all of the stars are in the Milky Way since I don't think any stars outside the Milky Way are visible to the naked eye. >2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? >I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? >(center? outer edge?) The best example I was of this is the Scientific American book "Powers of 10" which you may find in a library. Otherwise, I'm sure google can find you several other "pictures" of where we fit in the scheme of things. <<Remove the del for email>> THE GALAXY SONG By Python,M, et al. Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour, It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned, the sun that is the source of all our power. The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see, are moving at a million miles a day, In the outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour, of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way. Our Galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars, it's 100,000 light-years side-to-side, It bulges in the middle, 16 000 light-years thick, but out by us it's just 3 000 light-years wide. We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point, we go round every 200 million years, And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions in this amazing and expanding universe. The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding, in all of the directions it can whizz, As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know, twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth, Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, because there's bugger all down here on Earth. -- http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/jc_atm/ > THE GALAXY SONG > By Python,M, et al. > [ ... ] :-) This is the song that made me remember once for all the sizes and distances around the Galaxy. The trouble is that when the estimates change and I'm stuck with old data. However, the more pressing problem right now is that I cannot take the melody out of my head!!! It's your fault John! :-) Time to some musical therapy. "Cats" should help. I usually end up stuck with "Jellicle Cats" or "Macavity" but, hey, that's better than a non-stop loop of The Galaxy Song! - Alex > > THE GALAXY SONG > > By Python,M, et al. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > end up stuck with "Jellicle Cats" or "Macavity" but, hey, > that's better than a non-stop loop of The Galaxy Song! Alright then... can we have your liver? > THE GALAXY SONG > By Python,M, et al. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > -- > http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/jc_atm/ Thanks for the lyrics there's a link to an mp3 version here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Meade4504Telescopes/ PS John, your 'Mendicant Astronomer' block has you located at N 51d 14m 41s E 1d 18m 01s Is the Easting once around the block and back again ? > PS John, your 'Mendicant Astronomer' block has you located at > N 51d 14m 41s E 1d 18m 01s > > Is the Easting once around the block and back again ? Oops - it's late and I've realised it's not meant to be a Right Ascension. Silly me! >1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? Constellations are simply perceived patterns of stars. All stars that you can resolve are necessarily in the Milky Way galaxy, so all constellations are, in that sense, also in the galaxy. If you meant in the Milky Way object (i.e. the diffuse band of light), then no. Constellations are defined to cover the entire sky. >2. Do we have a clue as to where the earth resides in the Milky Way? >I gather we are quite a ways from the dense center, but how far away? >(center? outer edge?) We have a very good clue. See this for a visual representation: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/solarsystem/where.shtml -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. That'd be a great song for teaching junior high students cuz it would be fun for them. Could someone please tell me who python is and where exactly this song came from ( I guess I mean like if it was an actual recorded song by python or what not). Sorry if I sound stupid but i'm new with this newsgroup thing and just trying to get astronomy ideas for teaching. Thanks! Loretta Ng > >1. Are the constellations within the Milky Way? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/solarsystem/where.shtml > That'd be a great song for teaching junior high students cuz it would > be fun for them. Could someone please tell me who python is and where [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Loretta Ng Sung by Monty Python in the movie "The Meaning of Life". Written by Eric Idle. Do a web search on "Galaxy Song". But the song is full of inaccuracies. See: http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/cb_galaxy_song.html Double-A > That'd be a great song for teaching junior high students cuz it would > be fun for them. Could someone please tell me who python is and where > exactly this song came from ( I guess I mean like if it was an actual > recorded song by python or what not). Sorry if I sound stupid but i'm > new with this newsgroup thing and just trying to get astronomy ideas > for teaching. Thanks! Monty Python is the name of a very popular British comedy troupe, and IIRC "The Galaxy Song" appears in their 1983 film _The Meaning of Life_. The lyrics to the song can easily be found in a web-search, and no doubt bootleg MP3 recordings, as well; there's probably a legitimate soundtrack CD available. SignatureOdysseus |
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