No moon soon? (if ever)
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BradGuth - 31 Jul 2009 15:07 GMT It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, isn’t it.
On Jul 30, 9:56 am, Allen Thomson <thoms...@flash.net> wrote:
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-nasa-moon-return-augustine-073009, 0,1431682.story > > 2028? Goal of returning to moon could be slipping further away > Mark K. Matthews and Robert Block > Sentinel Staff Writers > July 30, 2009 > > NASA's goal of putting astronauts back on the moon by 2020 is all but > impossible to achieve, a presidential panel was told Wednesday. > > An independent analysis concluded there is little hope NASA could > replicate any time soon what Apollo 11 accomplished 40 years ago. And > sources said an undisclosed part of the study showed it may take until > 2028 — nearly 60 years after America's first moon landing — to get > back. > > "We can't see [the gap] closing," Gary Pulliam, an analyst with > Aerospace Corp., told a near-silent audience in Huntsville, Ala., > where engineers at the Marshall Space Flight Center have spent the > past four years designing new rockets for NASA's Constellation > program. > > One NASA analyst, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he > is not authorized to speak on behalf of NASA or the review panel, said > astronauts might be able to return to the moon by 2028, although > another source said 2035 was more likely. > > The grim assessment, delivered on the second day of hearings this week > on NASA's human spaceflight program, is the latest blow to the > Constellation program, a 4-year-old effort to design new rockets and a > crew capsule to take astronauts to the moon and eventually Mars. > > On Tuesday, former astronaut Sally Ride told the full panel, led by > former Lockheed Martin CEO Norm Augustine, that she did not expect > that Constellation's Ares I rocket and Orion capsule could complete a > first mission into low-Earth orbit before 2017 — two years after its > current target date. > > A second estimate, calculated by Pulliam on Wednesday, was even more > pessimistic. Because of ongoing technical troubles and insufficient > funding, he said, Constellation's first mission could be delayed to > 2019. "It should not surprise anyone that problems exist," he said. > > The findings of the panel build on months of increasingly critical > reports on Constellation, which ex-NASA Administrator Michael Griffin > chose in 2005 to fulfill then- President George W. Bush's vision of > returning astronauts to the moon by 2020 to prepare for an eventual > Mars mission. > > Dramatic changes? > > There are already signs that the panel is preparing options that would > dramatically change NASA's current plans to build two big rockets: the > Ares I to take crew to the space station and low-Earth orbit, and the > Ares V heavy-cargo lifter that would take up a moon lander and > propellant to take the Orion capsule and astronauts to the moon for > extended visits. > > One of the panel's subgroups, led by retired Air Force Gen. Lester > Lyles, recommended that the group consider allowing America's > international partners to participate in the development of NASA's > human spaceflight plans. > > Another far-reaching recommendation came from a subgroup headed by > former space-shuttle engineer and Boeing executive Bohdan Bejmuk. It > called for NASA to give up flying to low-Earth orbit, including to the > international space station. > > "Let's turn it over to the newcomers," he said, referring to companies > such as SpaceX of California and Orbital Sciences Corp. of Virginia, > which have NASA contracts to develop rockets and unmanned capsules > that can reach the space station. > > Doubts about the direction of the manned-space program spurred > President Barack Obama to name the committee, which has until late > August to present financial and policy options as to how NASA should > proceed. > > To stay on the current course, the White House would have to pump > billions of dollars more into Constellation — or completely rethink > how, and why, NASA sends astronauts into space. In the meantime, with > the space shuttle slated to retire by 2010 or 2011, the U.S. will > confront a years-long gap when it has no capacity to send humans into > space and must pay the Russians for trips to the space station. > > An option to narrow that gap, suggested by Ride on Tuesday, is to > extend the shuttle program past 2011. When the panel meets in Cocoa > Beach today, U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson is expected to advocate this idea, > according to an advance transcript. > > "I wish you would consider extending the shuttle to a point in time > that would lessen the gap so that we can have Americans riding > American vehicles to get to our station, and then on to the moon, and > then on to Mars," said Nelson, D-Fla. > > A shuttle extension would prevent devastating job losses at Kennedy > Space Center, which prepares NASA spacecraft for launch. One upcoming > report estimates 7,000 job losses at KSC after the shuttle's > retirement. > > Jeff Hanley, manager of the Constellation program, appeared resigned > to the bleak reports that the rockets would be years late. He said > that predicting when a new rocket would launch was akin to "hurricane > forecasting." > > During the daylong hearing, however, several of Hanley's midlevel > managers defended the beleaguered program. They offered their draft > solutions to ongoing technical problems, including the Ares I rocket's > tendency to shake violently on liftoff and potentially drift into its > launch tower. > > "We believe [Constellation rockets] are the fastest, most proven > [vehicles] to close the human spaceflight gap," said Steve Cook, > manager of the Ares program. > > Vigorous defense from ex-chief > > But the most vigorous defense came from Griffin, who left the agency > when Obama took office and is now a professor at the University of > Alabama at Huntsville. > > In a letter to the panel, he said NASA and the Constellation program > were "targets of broad but shallow criticism." And he said > Constellation was the "most expeditiously attainable, broadly capable, > lowest risk, and lowest life cycle cost design" under review. "Do not > allow the parochial voices of the small-minded, the self-interested, > and the uninformed to prevail. Choose the future," he concluded — a > parting shot aimed at commercial carriers and military rocket > companies competing to bury the Constellation program. > > Among the options being considered by the committee are designs that > would put the Orion capsule atop military rockets and another system > that would use the shuttle's engines, giant fuel tank and solid-rocket > boosters. Gee whiz folks, what another dumbfounded surprise. Is there any part of our NASA that's ever telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth about how we supposedly got to our moon in the first place?
Why are the previous administrators and a few thousand other high level management of our DARPA and NASA not in jail? I bet we could have honestly accomplished at least that much as of more than a decade ago.
In another obscure old topic: “The Apollo 11 Mission cost 355 Million dollars in 1969 (which equates to 1.75 billion in todays terms)” It’s now more like each mission would cost us a bare minimum of 2+ Billion and quite possibly ten fold and counting ($3.5B excluding all of their spendy R&D and vast amounts of DARPA and NASA infrastructure). Isn’t inflation such a wonderful thing, and to think of where all that extra hard earned loot of ours is going, isn’t into space or the moon where future generations could utilize any of it, but extensively into our NASA and their contractor pockets of offshore bank accounts, of essentially those responsible for having discarded and/or lost all the spendy R&D and original science from those Apollo missions to begin with.
Obviously that original mission cost is not including anything prior, such as the spendy R&D cost of their primary rocket, or the likes of including the Apollo 10 fiasco and of course their fly-by-rocket lander, and then each following mission was unavoidably spendier (especially after the A-13 fiasco). However, this still doesn’t include all the required R&D for creating their reliable rocket or their fly-by-rocket lander, each of which are missing parts or most of their critical R&D documentation, nor did that 355 million cover any of the related cost ever since. In fact, it was actually so spendy that no one seems to know exactly what each of those cold-war Apollo missions really cost us (all inclusive).
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
BradGuth - 31 Jul 2009 15:16 GMT > It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 171 lines] > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” At this rate we'll get there by 2050. Of course by then it'll be owned and operated by China and India, including it's L1.
Hagar - 31 Jul 2009 16:39 GMT It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, isn’t it.
< snipperoonie >
Once we get there, I'm sure we can lease a few acres of Moon dust from the Chinese, Japanese, Indians or the Yurpns. I would also bet that all of our relics, including the flag, will no longer be "available", thus providing a fresh gust of wind for the sails of the Moon Landing deniers.
BradGuth - 31 Jul 2009 16:53 GMT > It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be "available", thus providing a fresh gust of wind for the sails of the > Moon Landing deniers. You could be right. Most everything of any future mission has to go underground anyway, with only limited surface EVAs (mostly within earthshine).
Brad Guth
Saul Levy - 30 Aug 2009 15:47 GMT Do you know what EARTHSHINE is, GOOFBALL? lmfjao!
BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Saul Levy
>You could be right. Most everything of any future mission has to go >underground anyway, with only limited surface EVAs (mostly within >earthshine). > > Brad Guth BradGuth - 30 Aug 2009 17:31 GMT > It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be "available", thus providing a fresh gust of wind for the sails of the > Moon Landing deniers. You could be right. Most everything of any future lunar mission has to go underground anyway, with only limited surface EVAs (mostly within that nifty amount of earthshine that's worth <50 times that of moonshine here on Earth).
Pastel images are the very best our NASA teams of crack scientists can muster. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/350142main_fd9-release2_full.jpg ASTRONOMY September 2009 (Vol. 37 Issue 9), page 39 Why is it that we keep getting these intentionally/forced pastel images, such as of those so often mainstream published that offer such limited DR(dynamic range), in that film or even my old cell-phone camera has better DR and even better color/hue range, including purple and violet sensitivity?
Of course the same pastel kind of imaging happened with our Messenger mission that focused those extremely spendy CCDs and premium optics upon the physically dark planet Mercury. For some reason even those color/hue saturations were extensively excluded and/or DR limited so that the secondary/recoil fluorescence of whatever atmospherics and mineralogy can’t be easily interpreted.
Btw; that image of the repaired/upgraded Hubble was obviously another PhotoShop processed rendition. Way to go NASA, almost as good of ruse as those fake moon rocks that keep showing up.
It seems LROC has thus far delivered even worse DR (out of 66 db) than Kodak film, and where exactly are those deep and rich color/hue saturated images of the physically dark mineral fluorescence, as well as those accomplished by UV, IR, SAR, X-ray plus gamma secondary/ recoil spectrometry of our physically dark as coal Selene/moon?
Along with earthshine as soft fill-in illumination and 66 db worth of CCD dynamic range, as such there shouldn’t be hardly any location that’s shadowed into absolute blackness unless that crystal dry and extremely dusty terrain is just too carbon soot black to start with.
When are we ever going to start getting 100% of our public funded moneys worth? (though even 1% would be nice)
If the LCROSS portion fails us, all we’ve got is whatever the LRO package can deliver, and thus far we get to review perhaps 0.1% of its data (mostly of those pastel monochrome images), whereas many of those original Apollo metric mapping images seem thus far as equal or superior in their dynamic range of contrast.
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
Bast - 31 Jul 2009 18:47 GMT Just like the people getting all the funding for curing cancer. They really don't want to become redundant.
> It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” BradGuth - 31 Jul 2009 19:48 GMT > Just like the people getting all the funding for curing cancer. > They really don't want to become redundant. [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” You might have a valid point there, as well as for that of our bogus war on drugs, whereas if either of those issues were reasonably resolved via logic and honest efforts would mean the termination of tens of thousands of public funded jobs, as well as dozens of federal and state run incarceration and rehab facilities, not to mention whatever savings by way of reductions in crime and/or collateral damage that could have been easily avoided.
I've said it before; Legalize and tax the hell out of substance abuse (including junk foods and drinks), and then eliminate most forms of property tax, as well as cut state and federal income tax down to the dull combined roar of perhaps as little as 10% via an excise tax on every spent dollar (thus zero tax on dollars saved or otherwise honestly invested). In other words, let the greedy bastards, the sports and entertainment junkies as well as the dumb and dumber ones essentially pay for everything. (would you object to any of that?)
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
Bast - 02 Aug 2009 06:11 GMT >> Just like the people getting all the funding for curing cancer. >> They really don't want to become redundant. [quoted text clipped - 185 lines] > I've said it before; Legalize and tax the hell out of substance abuse > (including junk foods and drinks), ARE YOU DAFT ? And make the politicians have to pay more ?
> and then eliminate most forms of > property tax, as well as cut state and federal income tax down to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” BradGuth - 02 Aug 2009 15:32 GMT > >> Just like the people getting all the funding for curing cancer. > >> They really don't want to become redundant. [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] > > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” It doesn't do much good making politicians pay more for anything (including whatever booze and drugs), because we the suckers as taxpayers and consumers, including discardable/(single use) products and services or personal entertainment, are the only ones that'll ever end up paying for everything they spend or consume anyway.
What we need is simply less state and federal government, and as such it would greatly help by simply allowing a few of those spendy DARPA and NASA plugs to being pulled, and to let those laid off and otherwise retired to start fending for themselves, including starting off with a temporary 50% reduction in all of their retirement and benefits, and otherwise they really shouldn't even be given unemployment benefits because they'll always have first crack at any available civil service as well as most outside jobs.
I do have a viable federal and state excise tax plan that'll more than do the trick. However, for the moment it seems those inexperienced presidential advisers and of course those special interest groups are still pulling all of the BHO strings. However, it could easily be a whole lot worse if those crazy republicans were still fully in charge.
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
Saul Levy - 30 Aug 2009 17:17 GMT I OBJECT to YOU, MORON GOOFBALL! lmfjao!
INSANE IDIOTS should NOT RUN ANYTHING!
Saul Levy
>You might have a valid point there, as well as for that of our bogus >war on drugs, whereas if either of those issues were reasonably [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / Guth Usenet BradGuth - 30 Aug 2009 16:12 GMT > It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > that no one seems to know exactly what each of those cold-war Apollo > missions really cost us (all inclusive, including benefits and retirement). Pastel images are the very best our NASA teams of crack scientists can muster. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/350142main_fd9-release2_full.jpg ASTRONOMY September 2009 (Vol. 37 Issue 9), page 39 Why is it that we keep getting these intentionally/forced pastel images, such as of those so often mainstream published that offer such limited DR(dynamic range), in that film or even my old cell-phone camera has better DR and even better color/hue range, including purple and violet sensitivity?
Of course the same pastel kind of imaging happened with our Messenger mission that focused those extremely spendy CCDs and premium optics upon the physically dark planet Mercury. For some reason even those color/hue saturations were extensively excluded and/or DR limited so that the secondary/recoil fluorescence of whatever atmospherics and mineralogy can’t be easily interpreted.
Btw; that image of the repaired/upgraded Hubble was obviously another PhotoShop processed rendition. Way to go NASA, almost as good of ruse as those fake moon rocks that keep showing up.
It seems LROC has thus far delivered even worse DR (out of 66 db) than Kodak film, and where exactly are those deep and rich color/hue saturated images of the physically dark mineral fluorescence, as well as those accomplished by UV, IR, SAR, X-ray plus gamma secondary/ recoil spectrometry of our physically dark as coal Selene/moon?
Along with earthshine as soft fill-in illumination and 66 db worth of CCD dynamic range, as such there shouldn’t be hardly any location that’s shadowed into absolute blackness unless that crystal dry and extremely dusty terrain is just too carbon soot black to start with.
When are we ever going to start getting 100% of our public funded moneys worth? (though even 1% would be nice)
If the LCROSS portion fails us, all we’ve got is whatever the LRO package can deliver, and thus far we get to review perhaps 0.1% of its data (mostly of those pastel monochrome images), whereas many of those original Apollo metric mapping images seem thus far as equal or superior in their dynamic range of contrast.
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
BradGuth - 30 Aug 2009 16:16 GMT > It’s all pretty much about job security and public funded benefits, > isn’t it. [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > that no one seems to know exactly what each of those cold-war Apollo > missions really cost us (all inclusive, including benefits and retirement). Better decades late than never, although LCROSS could be never.
Now that the ISRO mission has failed early, and otherwise previously having suffered multiple compromises and technology failures (extensively due to excessive heat plus other factors of radiation and sodium), whereas now it’s our turn once again.
However, the ongoing LRO mission and much of its nifty science potential seems to be either malfunctioning or having been mostly excluded/banished from public review.
Apparently our moon has only recently become entirely colorless; meaning there’s essentially no minerals or anything but an entirely inert kind of light gray substance that’s as highly reflective (near whiteout) as depicted by several of those Apollo missions. In fact, via LRO it seems we’ve obtained next to nothing of any secondary fluorescence data (natural or false colorized) whatsoever, which means the moon has also become entirely nonreactive, including no sign of any sodium on the surface or within the extremely thin and highly ionized atmosphere.
What our belated and spendy LRO is supposed to do for us: http://directory.eoportal.org/presentations/129/13466.html
By way of digital image stacking, the full 66 db in dynamic range of those LRO cameras can be easily exploited, such as within just five quick images can exploit 60 db when limited as to their 12 db A/D conversion. Instead it seems we get to see 8 or less db worth of their dynamic range, and still nothing of mineral secondary/recoil fluorescence data.
Perhaps this ongoing lack of public funded science disclosure is good news, because it could mean that our extremely unusual moon is in fact entirely worthless, not having even 1% of those common minerals or otherwise hiding any molecule of water, brine or much less any chance of ice that makes up Earth, because supposedly by way of Apollo derived science it’s all pretty much inert and thus perfectly safe to be orbiting around or even directly upon for months and even years on end. In fact, apparently while in orbit of our inert and unreactive moon it’s also relatively cool if not cold and devoid of any significant bad kinds of radiation (not even any secondary IR to fret about) just like those Apollo missions reported freezing their butts off, though oddly those recent ISRO and CNSA missions had each been roasting their CPUs to death and otherwise unable to survive their encounter along with so much other secondary radiation and perhaps even degraded from all of that sodium that used to surround our moon (I wonder where all of that sodium went, because LRO and LCROSS are each reporting zilch). Apparently all of those old and new meteor deposits and secondary shards of such meteors and lunar bedrock of dark basalt are as equally light/neutral gray and otherwise passive and thus inert/colorless (w/o mineral fluorescence), as well as the LRO capability of UV and visible color imaging data has either been kept inactive or having failed.
All we’ve got thus far is a growing inventory of LROC monochrome images, and rather oddly pastel (minimal dynamic range) at that, because those naturally shaded areas are in fact 100% pitch black, meaning zero secondary reflectance from the surrounding local terrain (Apollo imaged as offering an average 0.7+ albedo and thus never experiencing any deep shadows) or even zilch illuminated via earthshine. In stead, it’s almost as though the surface is actually on average nearly as dark as coal, if not darker than coal on behalf of those exposed basalt ridges that are simply too extremely vertical and thus clear of any significant dust..
Apparently the 575 orbits per month and eventually cruising at 50 km or less above all of that inert and colorless surface that’s so unusually mascon populated can not seem to deliver the advertised 0.5 meter resolution. Otherwise there’s nothing of gamma or X-ray spectrometry (aka gamma secondary neutron) detections of discovering anything special, or even basic IR thermal imaging as calibrated to common standards that can help specify those complex surface/terrain temperatures to within 0.1 K, whereas otherwise even their UV camera seems to have been on the frits. In all, the LRO w/o SAR and multiple other kinds of remote observationology science, means that we still can’t seem to tell how deeply dust covered, reactive and/or electrostatic charged that crystal dry and thermally complex that surface actually is, much less if there’s anything the least bit unusual to behold other than the remains of various public funded Apollo, Soviet, JAXA, ISRO and CNSA technology that’s technically worthless because none of it survived long enough to give the general public (that’s paying for everything) anything interactive to work with.
Not to forget, it seems we’re still lacking any hard/objective science as to the zero delta-V and extreme vacuum(>3e-21 bar) of the Earth- moon L1 (Selene L1), as such this is yet another 50+ year old mystery that’s every bit as science deficient as is any hard/objective expertise pertaining to its extreme vacuum or that of any objective test of raw ice existing/coexisting within this 1 AU illuminated space of Selene L1, as for whatever given short amount of time such ice would survive. Silly me, as here I’d thought having objective knowledge of test ice samples existing/coexisting within such an extreme vacuum and otherwise solar illuminated realm of space, and of course as well as for ice situated upon our extremely nearby and unusual moon, was important fundamental basics of physics and science.
It’s almost as though all we’ve ever accomplished was getting a number robotic hardware items onto that physically dark as coal surface, and at that is seems little of it functioned or survived according to plan. Now we have our spendy and belated LRO mission that’s offering only limited results of our moon that has suddenly become entirely inert, colorless and otherwise harmless to boot. What the hell gives, and where’s all of the LCROSS data?
http://news.softpedia.com/news/LCROSS-Burns-Half-of-Fuel-Avoids-Disaster-120105.shtml http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/rss_feed_collection_archive_1.html
LCROSS with insufficient fuel, their exact crater targeting could be a little off, could even miss entirely. Say again, why we even bother to pay these guys.
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
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