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Space Forum / Astronomy / December 2008A new perspective on the asteroid belt
You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see lots and lots of rocks... What if then you were to look at the Solar System from a vantage point way up above? Would you see that the Sun also had a ring? Would this perhaps be a way for finding our way back to the Sun from deep space? Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our way back home, you know. > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our > way back home, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:InnerSolarSystem-en.png hth happy days and... starry starry nights!  SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "We are all here for a spell; get all the good laughs you can." > Will Rogers P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net >> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:InnerSolarSystem-en.png Thanks. What an artist's rendition. Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. >>> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >>> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks. What an artist's rendition. > Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. You're Welcome, Mark! happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "We are all here for a spell; get all the good laughs you can." > Will Rogers P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Another sign of your FAILED EDUCATION, Mark! Saul Levy >>> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >>> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Thanks. What an artist's rendition. >Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. Go stick your nose in a chicken coop and inhale what you smell like. > BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>Thanks. What an artist's rendition. >>Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. I used to live near a chicken coop, Mark! lmfjao! The smell depended on which way the wind blowed! BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Just like the way YOU BLOW, you uneducated MORON! Go f.ck the WarPiggy! You both have much in common! Saul Levy >Go stick your nose in a chicken coop and inhale what you smell like. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>Thanks. What an artist's rendition. >>>Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. >>> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >>> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks. What an artist's rendition. > Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. No Mark, the Scientists tell the artists what they see through their telescopes and the artists then depict it with very minor artistic license. >>>> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >>>> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > telescopes and the artists then depict it with very minor artistic > license. It's called poetic license, and looking at today's art and fiction, the poets have a lot of it. And the artists can use their own telescopes. BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Never trust an artist with a telescope, Mark! Saul Levy >It's called poetic license, and looking at today's art and fiction, the >poets have a lot of it. > >And the artists can use their own telescopes. Too bad that Mark wants a LOT of artistic license, Hagar! lmfjao! Remember that he knows so much more than anyone else does due to his RIDICULOUSLY FLAWED EDUCATION! Saul Levy >> Thanks. What an artist's rendition. >> Artists may know some things that the physicists do not. > >No Mark, the Scientists tell the artists what they see through their >telescopes and the artists then depict it with very minor artistic license. > > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > hth Except that 99.9999% of that stuff is going to be essentially invisible to all but the most advanced technology, and even the best of the human eye that's added via KECK optics is gong to miss 99.9%. Even our passive sun isn't going to exactly stand out. Most of what's out there is not bright and shiny, but instead often nearly carbon lampblack (aka dark minerals and black diamonds) and otherwise not moving fast enough to create noticeable reactions. ~ BG >> > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > ~ BG A fine idea that makes me wonder, and this is the first time i've given this any thought... Do the rings of Saturn reflect sunlight directly? or do they shine so brilliantly because they reflect the reflected light of nearby Saturn? (If i had to guess, i'd guess that they mostly reflect the reflected light of Saturn.) happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." > Will Rogers P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net > >> > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > >> > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > (If i had to guess, i'd guess that they mostly reflect > the reflected light of Saturn.) That's kind of my thought, though perhaps 1/3 via saturnshine and 2/3 via sunshine (possibly 0.1% via other starshine). However, of stuff further out isn't so icy reflective. More like a sooty ice, in some cases nearly lampblack. Saturn is kinda like as deep dark chocolate brown dwarf, emitting mostly deep IR. If Saturn and Jupiter could be combined, we'd have the makings of a nifty brown dwarf, in that whatever surviving moons (though still damn cold) could be lived upon. Sirius C is likely a brownish-red dwarf, with a few Earth and Venus sized moons. ~ BG We've told you that Jupiter isn't a brown dwarf, BradBoi! lmfjao! So Saturn is even less likely. Combining the two won't do it either. Sirius C isn't even confirmed yet. There is NO EVIDENCE for any planets or moons around it. Your continued STUPIDITY is well shown by such nonsense! Saul Levy >Saturn is kinda like as deep dark chocolate brown dwarf, emitting >mostly deep IR. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ~ BG <snip> > Do the rings of Saturn reflect sunlight directly? or > do they shine so brilliantly because they reflect the > reflected light of nearby Saturn? > > (If i had to guess, i'd guess that they mostly reflect > the reflected light of Saturn.) Guess again. Saturn's Bond albedo is about 0.34, so only one-third of the sunlight that reaches it is reflected -- in all directions, let alone directly at the rings. Look at any photo* in which you can see a sector of the rings that's behind Saturn's terminator but not in the planet's shadow. If reflected light from the planet were a major source of the rings' illumination, such regions would appear dimmer than those on the dayside, being lit only by sunlight. In fact all sunlit portions of a given ring appear about equally bright, implying that the planet's contribution is fairly small. Moreover, some Cassini imagery shows parts of the planet's nightside being quite noticeably lit by 'ringshine'. * Like <http://tinyurl.com/blindingSaturn>, for example. <http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/image-details.cfm?imageID=2 509> SignatureOdysseus > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the sunlight that reaches it is reflected -- in all directions, let > alone directly at the rings. Did you consider that maybe the certain gaseous state of Saturn may in fact focus its reflection of sunlight, onto the rings, much as a magnifying glass does? Saturn could be a house of mirrors. Oh, the mirror ball I asked Paine about? It isn't. Another example of your LACK of an EDUCATION, Mark! lmfjao! Saul Levy >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Saturn could be a house of mirrors. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > * Like <http://tinyurl.com/blindingSaturn>, for example. > http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/image-details.cfm?imageID=2509 You're right, of course, i see it now. Thank you, Odysseus, that's a timeless and timeless view! Awesome beyond words! happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." > Will Rogers P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net What is Saturn, a mirror ball, Paine? lmfjao! Saul Levy >A fine idea that makes me wonder, and this is the >first time i've given this any thought... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(If i had to guess, i'd guess that they mostly reflect >the reflected light of Saturn.) >> > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > nearly carbon lampblack (aka dark minerals and black diamonds) and > otherwise not moving fast enough to create noticeable reactions. Maybe light does strange things at extreme distances. Example, Saturn's rings, just rubble, the most beautiful things in the Solar System from a ways off. Another example: the Nebulae, nothing but gas close up, very bright and beautiful from far away. Can't see the asteroids that brightly from Earth? Remember that neither can you see Saturn's rings edge on. Actually you can, Mark, if you have a big enough telescope! lmfjao! Saul Levy >Can't see the asteroids that brightly from Earth? >Remember that neither can you see Saturn's rings edge on. How about with CUSTOM-FILTERED OPTICS, you DINGBAT BradBoi? lmfjao! Saul Levy >Except that 99.9999% of that stuff is going to be essentially >invisible to all but the most advanced technology, and even the best [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ~ BG In article <3b2d6d47-5d10-48cc-90a1-5f63e0597bd6@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, > > > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > > > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of the human eye that's added via KECK optics is gong to miss 99.9%. > Even our passive sun isn't going to exactly stand out. Except for all the light and heat it puts out. > Most of what's out there is not bright and shiny, Except our "passive" sun. > but instead often > nearly carbon lampblack (aka dark minerals and black diamonds) and > otherwise not moving fast enough to create noticeable reactions. Maybe you can tell us how you know this? SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts. You forgot the faster than light drive, Mark! lmfjao! You do have one, don't you? BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Saul Levy >You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our >way back home, you know. I have one, it is you that don't. > You forgot the faster than light drive, Mark! lmfjao! > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our >>way back home, you know. Slightly delusional, Mark? lmfjao! I sure don't have one because THEY DON'T EXIST! Have you had your SANITY checked recently? You'd FAIL! Saul Levy >I have one, it is you that don't. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Saul Levy > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our > way back home, you know. Deploy one grain of salt (roughly 1e18 sodium+chlorine atoms) every AU, as that'll get us back home. Speaking of asteroid stuff. Just wondering, where's little old Sedna these days? Why can't there be a probe sent to Sedna? ~ BG >> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Deploy one grain of salt (roughly 1e18 sodium+chlorine atoms) every > AU, as that'll get us back home. Only problem I can see with that, is that upon deployment, the grain of salt will follow us to wherever it is we are going. > Speaking of asteroid stuff. Just wondering, where's little old Sedna > these days? Sedna the planetoid? I'm sure its still up there, at least it was last time I heard. > Why can't there be a probe sent to Sedna? No reason why not. > >> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > >> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Only problem I can see with that, is that upon deployment, the grain of salt > will follow us to wherever it is we are going. As an ion beam or somehow within the thrust exhaust should exit at roughly the same velocity as forward momentum. In that way each grain of salt and/or the 1e18 atoms thereof sort of stays put. How large of a cloud if we're talking 10 atoms/cm3? (? 1e17 cm3 ?) 1e17 cm3 is not such a half bad trail marker for a grain of salt. ~ BG > > Speaking of asteroid stuff. Just wondering, where's little old Sedna > > these days? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No reason why not. >> >> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> >> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > roughly the same velocity as forward momentum. In that way each grain > of salt and/or the 1e18 atoms thereof sort of stays put. But you don't need forward thrust in deep space unless you wish to change your degree of acceleration. It would cause massive amount of burning of fuel to stop, place a beacon, then get all accelerated up again. Too much to make it possible to get where you are going, in fact. > How large of a cloud if we're talking 10 atoms/cm3? (? 1e17 cm3 ?) > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> No reason why not. > >> "BradGuth" <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > amount of burning of fuel to stop, place a beacon, then get all accelerated > up again. Too much to make it possible to get where you are going, in fact. So, ion thrust for 0.1 second in order to deploy that grain of salt at each AU, that'll turn into a noticeable sodium cloud of 100 km3. ~ BG >> >> "BradGuth" <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > So, ion thrust for 0.1 second in order to deploy that grain of salt at > each AU, that'll turn into a noticeable sodium cloud of 100 km3. Too much crushing g force, if you expect to get where you are going in half decent time. Now if you have a space mission specifically designed to deploy the salt bouys...you may indeed have something there. > You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see > lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Would you see that the Sun also had a ring? No. The asteroid thingy is called a belt and not a ring for a reason. It turns out that Jupiter disturbs the orbits too much for a ring to form. It's just a bunch of rocks in various orbits in that area. > Would this perhaps be a way for finding our way back to the Sun > from deep space? No. > Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our > way back home, you know. That's true, but as has been pointed out, there are plenty of ways to do that even if you can't find the sun. SignatureTimberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts. >> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > turns out that Jupiter disturbs the orbits too much for a ring to form. > It's just a bunch of rocks in various orbits in that area. That is what the aliens of fictional moons whose orbital plane coincides with that of Saturn's rings would say... >> Would this perhaps be a way for finding our way back to the Sun >> from deep space? > > No. Oh, have some creative imagination, will you? Let's paint outer space with inventive intuitiveness. >> Let me know: all we need to conquer space is a way to find our >> way back home, you know. > > That's true, but as has been pointed out, there are plenty of ways to do > that even if you can't find the sun. Sure, sure, let computers do it for you. The way today's computers crash sometimes... ...do you really want to become Lost In Space over them? >>> You know how when you look at Saturn's rings close up, you see >>> lots and lots of rocks... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > The way today's computers crash sometimes... > ...do you really want to become Lost In Space over them? Reminds me of Apollo 11, the first Selenar mission to walk the surface of planet Selene. The computer whacked out during the landing sequence, and Neil Armstrong had to land the Eagle on the Moon all by himself. All of the many hours of training had made him ready for "Plan B". And an added little cause for stress was that the Eagle was almost out of fuel. Without the computer, Neil didn't know if he had enough fuel to land safely. Only the coolness of courage and the habits he learned during training kept his hands and mind steadily on the task of landing. Pilots fly by the "seat of the pants" sometimes, Mark. There's always a "Plan B". happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." > Will Rogers P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net Plenty have bought the farm, Paine! lmfjao! Training only goes so far. It's very easy to get into DEEP sh.t! Saul Levy >Reminds me of Apollo 11, the first Selenar mission >to walk the surface of planet Selene. The computer [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Pilots fly by the "seat of the pants" sometimes, Mark. >There's always a "Plan B". >> Reminds me of Apollo 11, the first Selenar mission >> to walk the surface of planet Selene. The computer [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Saul Levy Yes, and a good many of these came from test pilot ranks like astronauts. This is a fact that needs to be embraced by NASA and the public alike. Flying, to include space travel, can be a risky business. Not one single astronaut ever left the ground without first knowing the risks. They were and are willing to risk buying the farm to further our knowledge and our chances of survival. They were and are willing to put their lives on the line to explore other worlds. Planning for safety can only go so far. It should *never* slow things down too much, as it has done to the US space program. happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "Many a man's reputation would not know his character if they met on the street." > Elbert Hubbard P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net > >> Reminds me of Apollo 11, the first Selenar mission > >> to walk the surface of planet Selene. The computer [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > *never* slow things down too much, as it has done > to the US space program. The astronaut pay is good and the perks and benefits are even better. The risk is actually minimal once you remove the criminal aspects of those in charge of most everything. ~ BG True, Paine! Let's send BradBoi and WartPiggy into space! SPACE THEM! lmfjao! Think NASA would accept them? Saul Levy >>> Reminds me of Apollo 11, the first Selenar mission >>> to walk the surface of planet Selene. The computer [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >*never* slow things down too much, as it has done >to the US space program. I *do* hope that was a rhetorical question, Saul! <g> > True, Paine! > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>*never* slow things down too much, as it has done >>to the US space program. happy days and... starry starry nights! SignatureIndelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth P.S.: "Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck." > George Carlin P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com http://painellsworth.net Nothing rhetorical about spacing BradBoi or WartPiggy! lmfjao! Saul Levy >I *do* hope that was a rhetorical question, Saul! <g> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Saul Levy |
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