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Nothingness. ? !!!

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socratus - 17 Aug 2008 08:03 GMT
Nothingness. ? !!!
============ ========= =..

Nothingness of Space Could Illuminate the Theory of Everything .
============ ========.
Could the vacuum contain dark energy, gravity particles,
and frictionless gears?
by Tim Folger
published online July 18, 2008

When the next revolution rocks physics,
chances are it will be about nothing—the vacuum, that endless
infinite void.

http://discovermaga zine.com/ topics/space

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/18-nothingness-of-space-theory-of-everything

#
" The problem of the exact description of vacuum, in my opinion,
is the basic problem now before physics. Really, if you can’t
correctly
describe the vacuum, how it is possible to expect a correct
description
of something more complex? "

 / Paul Dirac ./
#
"Now we know that the vacuum can have all sorts of wonderful effects
over an enormous range of scales, from the microscopic to the cosmic,"

/ Peter Milonni.
from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico./
============ ==.

What is the first law of Universe ?
=========.
The Physics is first of all Vacuum.
Vacuum is :T=0K.
It is the empty space between milliards of billions Galaxies.
* * *
Once upon a time, 20 billions of years ago, all matter
(all elementary particles and all quarks and
their girlfriends- antiparticles and antiquarks,
all kinds of waves: electromagnetic, gravitational,
muons gluons field .. etc.) was assembled in a single point.

It is interesting to think about what had surrounded the single
point. The answer is : EMPTINESS- NOTHING.!!!
Ok!
But why does everyone speak about EMPTINESS- NOTHING in
common phrases rather than in specific, concrete terms?
I wonder why nobody has written down this EMPTINESS- NOTHING in
the form of a physical formula ? You see, every schoolboy knows that
is possible to express the EMPTINESS- NOTHING condition
by the formula T=0K.
* * *
Once there was a Big Bang.
But in what space had the Big Bang taken place
and in what space was the matter of the Big Bang distributed?
Not in T=0K?
It is clear, that there is only EMPTINESS, NOTHING, in T=0K.
Now consider that the Universe, as an absolute frame of reference is
in a condition of T = 2,7K (rests relic radiation of the Big
Bang ). But, the relic radiation is extended and in the future will
change and decrease. What temperature can this radiation reach?
Not T=0K?
Hence, if we go into the past or into the present or into the future,
we can not escape from EMPTINESS- NOTHING T=0K.
Therefore it is necessary to begin to think from T=0K.
============ =======.
About the theory of the Big Bang is written
the thick (very thick) books.
But anywhere do not write about the reason of the Big Bang.
Anybody does not know it.
I know.
Action, when the God opens his palm,
have named the "Big Bang".
And action, when the God compresses his palm,
have named " a single point".
============ ========= ======.

Now it is consider that Newton / Einstein’s laws
of gravitation are the first laws of Universe.
============
1.
Newton was a clever man therefore when he discovered his
" law of gravitation" he quickly understood that
soon or later the all matter in the Universe had to gather
in the " singular point".
And because this effect does not happen in the Nature,
Newton , being very religious man , thought that only God’s
power did not give the matter to gather in a " singular point".
2.
And then atheistic time came. They decided :
As God does not exist, so the all matter in Universe
must gather in a " singular point".
============ ====
I don’t agree that Newton / Einstein’s laws
of gravitation are the first laws of Universe.
Why?
1.
Take simple atom: proton and electron,( small distances).
Nobody interests in gravitation interaction between
proton and electron . There is not any theory about
gravitation interaction between proton and electron .
Everybody interests only in electrical ( nuclear)
interaction between them.
It means that Newton / Einstein’s laws of gravitation
are local and limited.
This law in the small ( nuclear) distance does not work.
2.
Take Universe ( cosmic distances).
There is not theory about gravitation interaction between
galaxy A. and galaxy Z. We don’t need it.
Why? For example.
Let’s imagine of all apple- trees on our Earth
as a galaxy, and apples as stars.
Nobody will interest in the interaction between
an apple- tree in New York ( galaxy A.) and
an apple- tree (cherry-tree) in Varanasi (galaxy Z.).
It means that Newton / Einstein’s laws of gravitation
are local and limited.
This law in the big cosmic distance does not work.
3.
Detected material mass of the matter in the Universe is so small
(the average density of all substance in the Universe is
approximately p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that it is not able to isolate all
cosmic space in sphere. It mean that Universe (Vacuum) is infinite.
=========
Conclusion: Newton / Einstein’s laws of gravitation cannot be
" The first law of Universe."
============ ====
What is the second law of Universe ?
To answer of this question we must ask:
" What geometrical and physical parameters
have the particles in Vacuum T=0K? "
1.
Thermodynamics point.
Let us take some area of Vacuum and mark it with letter R.
The number of particles in this area of Vacuum
we will to mark with letter N.
When every particle of this area has gravity/ mass of rest: R/N= k.
============ =======
2.
Quantum (SRT) point.
Classic physics asserts, that in a Vacuum Ò=0Ê cease any motion
of particles, and the energy of Vacuum is equal zero.
The quantum physics asserts, that in a Vacuum Ò=0Ê there are
motion of particles, and the energy of Vacuum is not zero.
Let us take some energy area of Vacuum and mark it with letter E.
The mass of this energy area of Vacuum we will to mark with letter M.
When every particle of this area has energy/mass of rest: E/M= c^2,
( E=Mc^2, M=Ec^2.)
============ ========= ==
3.
Geometry and Physics.
The Modern Physics was started from two points:
thermodynamics and light.
1.
By studying the effect of thermodynamics, physicists came to the
opinion that the physical parameters like volume, temperature and
density (of particles mass) are enough to discover the laws of
thermodynamics, and they didn’t need to know something
concrete about single particle. But then, soon or later, all mass of
this
particles will stop it’s moving and the thermal/ radiation death
will come. Is it possible? No, it isn’t , some particles will radiate
and then QT evolved from this idea. Now the situation radically
change.
From studying mass of particles in thermodynamics Planck and
Einstein
began to study one individual particle (quantum of energy). It
seams that
it was logical to think about geometrical form of this particle,
but this
did not happen. And still now physicists do not think about concrete
particles, they are concerned about the " mathematical point".
2.
When physicists studied the behavior of light, they came to the
conclusion that light ( light quanta) can sometime be a particle as a
" mathematical point" and sometime a wave as a " mathematical
wave". From behavior of light the SRT was born and here the particle
is also " mathematical point". It is hard to understand, why nobody
think about geometrical form of light quanta if it is real particle.
3.
For many years, physicists used Euclidian (static and firm )
geometry for solving physical problems, and they thought there was
only one geometry.
But Lobachevsky and Bolyai had another opinion.
They thought that to use only Euclidian geometry was not enough to
explain all the effects in the Universe. Why, because our Universe
is not static and firm. The physical processes in Universe change
all the time so the Euclidian geometry also has to change. This lead
Lobachevsky and Bolyai to discover Non-Euclidian geometry which is
not static but elastic.
4.
Between the XIX and XX century, many physicists such Abraham,
Poincare, Lorentz and Einstein came to the conclusion that the
particle (electron) does not have constant mass, energy and length.
This means that an electron is not a firm particle. The electron is
an elastic particle and therefore his geometrical form can change.
All physicists know about this fact and took this fact in their
calculations. But which conclusion can be done from this fact? They
have no answer. Nobody interested about the borders of this changes.
5.
In 1915 Einstein said the mass and speed (moving mass) can change the
geometry of space. (GRT). It means the physics without geometry is a
limited part of science. It means the physics without geometry is
not complete (whole) part of science.
6.
The situation we see today is similar to the years between 1900 and
1928 when QT was created. Nothing changes.
Mathematicians use Non- Euclidian geometry and they do not know
the power of these changes from Euclidian to Non-Euclidian geometry.
They do not interested how these changes came.
And physicists use forces (energy, impulse, ...etc) without know
anything about geometrical changes of particles. They do not think
about this. For them the particle is only represented by
a " mathematical point".
After all, they say the situation in QT is crazy, the Nature is
paradoxical. I know why they say this, because one hand "physical
doesn,t know that the other hand "geometrical" does.
7.
Can we understand our " paradoxical" world?
The answer is clear. In the Natural world, physics and geometry
are one unit part in the evolutionary process, and this fact must be
reflected in any future theory of the evolution of matter (as a mass
and as an individual particle).
------------ --------- --.
The Natural world is not a " mathematical point".
Even the smallest object must have a geometrical form.
And on my opinion, only when we begin to think about light quanta as
a particle with a geometrical form we come from image to reality.
------------ -------.
P.S.
Italy. Railway station.
It was more then two hours till the departure of the train.
I went to the café and ordered a cup of coffee. Soon two men
and a very beautiful, slim woman took place opposite me.
They ordered something to drink and one of the man opened a
case of violin and took out a bow. He began to explain something
about a bow , carefully and gently touching it. Then another man
took this bow and also enthusiastically continued this conversation.
For half an hour the bow was passed from one hands to another
following with enthusiastic discussion.
And the beautiful woman looked at bow, at both these men without
saying a word. For half an hour I watched this group with admiration
and excitement. What a class! What a cultural level! What a beauty!
=======================..
And now let's imagine the bow pressed into a "mathematical point"
and  the musicians speak seriously about a  " mathematical point "
which must produce a sound from a violin. Everybody will say I
describe an idiotic situation. Well, I agree.
But why don’t anybody say it to physicists when they observe the
elementary particle as a " mathematical point " , without paying
attention to its geometrical form.
==========..
P.S.
When Feynman said " I think I can safely say that nobody understands
quantum mechanics. " it was only because nobody took into
consideration
the geometrical form of particle.
================.

In 1787, French physicist Jack Charles found out that at
a decrease of gas temperature to 1 degree, its volume decreases
on 1/273 : " Charles' law ". And  when the  temperature reaches
-273 degrees  the volume disappears.
This law was confirmed by others of physicists:
Gay-Lussac ( 1802), W. Nernst ( 1910), A. Einstein ( 1925)
All these laws (as consequence from the Third Law of
Thermodynamics ) tell, when the temperature goes closer to
zero T=0K, then the particles lose more their volume.
The volume of these particles aspires to infinity.
Unless can it be? No.
It prohibits with the "Law of conservation and transformation
energy". Its mean, when volume of the particles disappear they
become indefinitely flat circles - phantoms.
So, they can only change  its geometrical form and its kinetic
energy and become  “flat particles” with potential energy.
These flat particles must have geometrical form of a circle
C/D= pi = 3,14…..So, it is mistaken to think about elementary
Particle  as about a "mathematical point".
What does "indefinitely flat circles means?
It means, that we cannot reach Absolute Vacuum T=0K
and we cannot reach density of the particle in the rest .
============ ========= .
4.
Mathematical point.
In mathematics, such condition of the particle in Vacuum
is characterized with the imaginary quantity : i^2=-1.
============ ========= ========= .
The quantum physics approves, that `virtual particles`
exist in Vacuum
Astrophysics approves, that "latent mass", "invisible particles",
'missing mass', 'dark matter' exist in Vacuum.
Everything was created from them.
But nobody knows that it is.
They say, that 90% or more of the matter in the Universe is unseen.
They are right.
============ ========= .
We have now whole bouquet of formulas to begin
to paint the picture of creating the Existence.

C/D=pi , E=Mc^2, R/N=k , h = 0 , i^2 = -1 .
============ ========= ========= =====.
Does not anybody see how beautiful
this bouquet of formulas?
============ .
Israel Ssdovnik./ Socratus.
http://www.socratus .com
http://www.wbabin. net
===============..
oldcoot - 20 Aug 2008 14:25 GMT
It's surprizing nobody's commented on this post by Mr. Socrates
wherein he linked to this Discover magazine article -

> http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/18-nothingness-of-space-theory-o...

..Wherein this interesting statement is made -

"Empty space wasn’t always so mystifying. Until the 1920s physicists
viewed the vacuum much as the rest of us still do: as a featureless
nothingness, a true void. That all changed with the birth of quantum
mechanics. According to that theory, the space around a particle is
filled with countless “virtual” particles rapidly bursting into and
out of existence like an invisible fireworks display."

OK, let's take the first part of the statement, "Empty space wasn’t
always so mystifying. Until the 1920s physicists viewed the vacuum
much as the rest of us still do: as a featureless nothingness, a true
void."

First off, the writer's got this bass-ackward. Up until the 1920s the
reality of the spatial medium, the "aether", was widely accepted in
science. Witness Einstein's famous University of Leyden lecture of May
5, 1920. Then in the mid-1920s he made the seemingly innocent and
innocuous little statement, "Remember gentlemen, we have not proven
the aether does not exist, we have only proven we do not need it (for
mathematical purposes)".. meaning that space can be treated
mathematically _as if_ it were a void, not that it *is* a void. But
the mainstream pounced on it, spun it, and trumpeted that the Primacy
of Math now supplanted the old superstition. A new age of
enlightenment was born. The "aether" was dead. And the Void-Space
Paradigm was born. And Einstein, for reasons known only to himself,
went along with the 'No Medium' doctrine to the end of his days.

And then the second part of the statement, "That all changed with the
birth of quantum mechanics. According to that theory, the space around
a particle is filled with countless “virtual” particles rapidly
bursting into and out of existence like an invisible fireworks
display."

No, quantum mechanics took the stage *subservient* to the new 'No
Medium' doctrine, and functioned as a wholly owned subsidiary of it
(and has to this day). It's had to invent and ad hoc an awful lot of
stuff. "Virtual particles bursting into and out of existance" still
begs the question "into and out of 'What'?" Same with 'quantum foam'.
A foam of 'What'? And string theory. Strings of 'What'? To answer the
simple question of 'What?' remains the one Ultimate Taboo, the "Thou
shall not go there" commandment.

And to think that this was hatched out of whole cloth as an edict of
pure fiat barely 85 years ago.

> " The problem of the exact description of vacuum, in my opinion,
>  is the basic problem now before physics. Really, if you can’t
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>  / Peter Milonni.
> from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico./
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 20 Aug 2008 15:16 GMT
oc  Empty is a bad word to describe macro space(space between the stars)
It just has hydrogen gas very thinned out.  Micro space between
electrons and nucleus has even more space but never completely empty.
You want to find a very busy and more congested space you have to go
inside a Planck length. Here is Planck energy. Here isPlanck mass.  Here
all is close and makes these submicroscopic particles act like they are
in a frenzy. Here is the heart of the universe. Here is where waves and
particles get together by quantum gravity.        Here is where the
other three forces will be created.  Here is where relativity can not
work. No smooth space here No macro spacetime that fits. Its in Planck
time.  Could be I am talking about being inside a singularity.  Big bang
might have started by space tearing??          Best I stop here before I
start thinking outside the box.  I think I know what Schrodinger cat
went through when in the box.   Go figure   Nothing can not be used in
any part of our thinking of the universe. Mother nature even hates the
vacuum,and that is why it is filled to the top with all the tiny stuff
Bert
socratus - 21 Aug 2008 06:36 GMT
> oc  Empty is a bad word to describe macro space(space between the stars)
> It just has hydrogen gas very thinned out.  Micro space between
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> vacuum,and that is why it is filled to the top with all the tiny stuff
> Bert

When the next revolution rocks physics,
chances are it will be about nothing—the vacuum, that endless
infinite
void.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/18-nothingness-of-space-theory-o...
===================.
When the next revolution rocks physics,
chances are it will be about nothing—the vacuum,
that endless infinite void.
Why?

When Einstein worked on GRT, he asked astronomers:
“ What is the average mass of matter in the Universe?”
The result was lamentable. The quantity of mass was
insignificantly small.
The detected material mass of the
matter in the Universe is so small  (the average density
of all substance in the Universe is approximately
p=10^-30 g/sm^3) that the gravitation law doesn't work.
It was impossible to keep gravitation law  with such
insignificantly  little mass and so, the Universe
must be “open”, endless. But what to do with the infinite
space, Einstein didn’t know. Therefore he took (from the
heaven)  “ the cosmological constant” in order to “close”
the Universe. The taken mass was enough for creating the
condition of gravitation. Without “ the cosmological constant”
the  Universe is endless.
Astronomers and astrophysicists know about this fact and
therefore (to save the gravitation law) invented new matter
a "dark matter", a new energy a “dark energy” and another
abstract objects. “The Dark Matter is another official dogma
of our  astronomy.”/ V.H.Vergon /
This “ invention” is only a result of our
mentality , which says: ” If in a theory you meet infinity it
means the theory is  nonsense”. It is very hard  to take that
the  Universe is infinite. It is no easy matter to give up
a lifetime of habit .
The Universe / Vacuum  as a whole is endless.
================================
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 21 Aug 2008 14:09 GMT
Socratus  Einstein knew the space between the stars was he most dynamic
part of the universe  I only added my thoughts to his  bert
oldcoot - 21 Aug 2008 14:21 GMT
> When the next revolution rocks physics,
> chances are it will be about nothing—the vacuum, that endless
> infinite void.

Yeah. The "Pneuma" of our age.

> When Einstein worked on GRT, he asked astronomers:
> “ What is the average mass of matter in the Universe?”
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> must be “open”, endless. But what to do with the infinite
>  space, Einstein didn’t know.

In this model, the centerpiece 'Engine' or Primal Particle has 'waaay
more than sufficient mass to gravitationally close the universe, and
account for the problem of "missing mass" -
http://community-2.webtv.net/oldcoot/ContinuousBigBang/

> Therefore he (Einstein) took (from the
>  heaven)  “ the cosmological constant” in order to “close”
>  the Universe. The taken mass was enough for creating the
>  condition of gravitation. Without “ the cosmological constant”
>  the  Universe is endless.

He later recanted the CC or 'steady state' idea as his "biggest
blunder". But in the model illustrated above, the Steady State idea is
validated and affirmed, but in a much bigger way than he envisioned.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 26 Aug 2008 13:30 GMT
oc  Nothing has no place in our universe. Nothing means non existing,and
here we are.      The universe could not rise up out of nothing.    bert
oldcoot - 27 Aug 2008 03:29 GMT
> Nothing has no place in our universe. Nothing means non existing,and
> here we are.      The universe could not rise up out of nothing.  

Not according to the biggest mukky muks out there. During an
interview, Dr. Michio Kaku, parodying Genesis 1, had this to say:

"...And because of the quantum principle, there were fluctuations,
fluctuations in nothing. This means that bubbles began to form in
nothing, and these bubbles began to expand rapidly..."

So Something arose magically out of 'Nothing' and here we is. These
guys with the big brains can rattle this stuff off with a straight
face and without the slightest hint of embarrassment. Simply amazing.
                   "Bubbles in Nothing" harkens to that oft-cited
parable of Mr.Fish deep in the ocean who sees a gas bubble that's come
out of solution. He deems the bubble as 'being' and the much-more-
substantial ocean in which it's embedded as 'not-being' or Nothing.
Painius - 27 Aug 2008 08:30 GMT
>> Nothing has no place in our universe. Nothing means non existing,and
>> here we are. The universe could not rise up out of nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> out of solution. He deems the bubble as 'being' and the much-more-
> substantial ocean in which it's embedded as 'not-being' or Nothing.

BUT, BUT, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP)
ALLOWS for these bubbles, these fluctuations in the
"CONTINUUM" ("nothing") to happen!!!!  Therefore,
this quite "possibly" was how the Big Bang took place.

Of course, first we have to DENY that anything like this
could have happened BEFORE the Big Bang, simply due
to the fact that THERE *WAS NO* "BEFORE"!  "Before"
indicates "TIME", and "time" was not created UNTIL the
Big Bang!

On a side bar, did anybody catch that great film called
"Catch 22"?  <g>

happy days and...
  starry starry nights!

Signature

Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.:  Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.:  http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

Jeff▲Relf - 27 Aug 2008 11:59 GMT
Just because  Our  horizon extends back 13.7 giga years ago,
covering a sphere 90 giga light years wide, with us at the center ..
it most definitely does  Not  objectively define the begining of time.
BradGuth - 27 Aug 2008 12:51 GMT
> >> Nothing has no place in our universe. Nothing means non existing,and
> >> here we are. The universe could not rise up out of nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> On a side bar, did anybody catch that great film called
> "Catch 22"?  <g>

I'd say our latest BB cycle is worth upwards of 1e12 years of
expansion.

By some reasonably peer accepted science has our universe diameter at
100 ~ 150 billion light years, and at 0.1'c' of getting such cosmic
stuff to that kind of physical event horizon is going to take some
time, of at least 500 billion years, if not more than 750 billion
years.

Is it even technically possible to move physical matter/gas at
0.1'c' (30,000 km/s)?

Of other than gamma photons, what's the fastest recorded physical
expansion velocity of a supernova?

Can a black hole implosion outperform a supernova or neutron star
implosion that'll turn a cosmic night into day?

it seems the absolute maximum physical rate or potential velocity of a
BB expansion is going to be limited as to 0.5'c', of which places our
universe event horizon at the age of 100 to 150 billion years.

 ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Painius - 27 Aug 2008 19:26 GMT
>> >> Nothing has no place in our universe. Nothing means non existing,and
>> >> here we are. The universe could not rise up out of nothing.
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
>  ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

Oh come now, Brad.  Any cosmologist worth his salt
would tell you that you are failing to take "relativistic"
effects into consideration.  Too bad if you don't know
what that means, because every reference site i've
seen thus far is way over a layman's head.  Nobody
seems to be able to explain it in terms i can relate to.

And of course, unlike Sagan, Asimov and a few others
who would take their best shot at explaining it, those
who respond in today's cosmology just tell me i'm a
bit too ignorant to understand. Which says more about
them than it does about me!

Try to find a cosmologist today who is just as good at
giving plausible explanations as s/he is at cosmology.
Damn hard to find these days, damn hard.

And it gets real funny when you start asking the "hard"
questions, like why we should blindly accept that "c" is
merely a constant of Nature, and not actually the result
of space being comprised of a dense energy medium?
The good ol' boys of cosmology just vanish somewhere
out into the dark Cosmos!  Void Space Paradigm kicks
in, i suppose.  ('If you don't think of space as "nothing",
then you must be one ignorant idiot, and unworthy of
my effort and time.')  *Their* teleparadigmatic loss.

(teleparadigmatic?)  <g>

happy days and...
  starry starry nights!

Signature

Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.:  Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.:  http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

oldcoot - 28 Aug 2008 16:39 GMT
On Aug 27, 11:26 am, "Painius" <starswirlern...@maol.com> writted:

> And it gets real funny when you start asking the "hard"
> questions, like why we should blindly accept that "c" is
> merely a constant of Nature, and not actually the result
> of space being comprised of an energy-dense medium?

It's utterly amazing. The fact of a fixed propagation speed
independant of the velocity of the emitter is direct, incontrovertable
evidence and proof of a carrier medium. It's patently obvious and self-
evident er, at least should be to anybody with two working brain
cells. But yet, otherwise-normal, intelligent people with a full suite
of working brain cells recite unquestioningly the 'space-is-Nothing'
absurdity.

> The good ol' boys of cosmology just vanish somewhere
> out into the dark Cosmos!  Void Space Paradigm kicks
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> (teleparadigmatic?)  <g>

But then you've got the 'true Savants' of cosmology who say "But we're
not saying space is 'nothing'. It's comprized of geometry and '4-D
fields'." Or, "It's 'quantum foam' and/or 'strings'." Or, "it's 'space-
time' and/or 'quintessence'."  The whole strategy is to hew
unwaveringly to the 'No medium' mandate while conceding the fact that
space is most profoundly 'Something'. By whatever strategy, it comes
out as space being the proverbial 'Something that is yet Nothing'.

The 'Nothing' is able to carry unlimited amplitudes of EM radiation at
a fixed velocity. And it crushes massive stars down to a singularity
while handily powering quasars on a sustained basis. That's quite a
herculean 'Nothing'.  :-)
Saul Levy - 27 Aug 2008 23:34 GMT
Why didn't you add something about Sirius in there, BradBoi?  lmfjao!

It's YOU who isn't discussing Sirius.

After all, Sirius and the Sun have no connection.  Nothingness?

Saul Levy

>I'd say our latest BB cycle is worth upwards of 1e12 years of
>expansion.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>  ~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
oldcoot - 27 Aug 2008 13:13 GMT
> BUT, BUT, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP)
> ALLOWS for these bubbles, these fluctuations in the
> "CONTINUUM" ("nothing")  -

Oughta just call it the "Uncertainty Principle" and leave out the
Heisenberg part. Ol' Werner never intended it for such grossly out-of-
context, catch-all kludgery.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Aug 2008 14:00 GMT
oc Right you are  Heisenberg used uncertainty for micro QM realm. He
told us that there are features of the universe like the position and
velocity of a particle can not be known with complete precision. This
becomes more true when distance and time scales get smaller and smaller.
Taken this thinking into Planck time it is bringing out a picture that
this microscopic realm is a roiling frenzy with  violent areas of
quantum fluctuations. What was fluctuating was Particles and fields
jumping between all possible values.  I read most of this,and agree with
it.  go figure  bert
Painius - 28 Aug 2008 16:39 GMT
>> BUT, BUT, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP)
>> ALLOWS for these bubbles, these fluctuations in the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Heisenberg part. Ol' Werner never intended it for such grossly out-of-
> context, catch-all kludgery.

I agree, oc, but when chiding a cosmologist who has
recently dubbed me "stupid" or some other such POS
adjective, for me to return with "UP is God!" just does
not have the same impact as "HUP is God!"  <g>

Einstein takes the heat for all misuse of relativity, so
Heisenberg also for all misuse of the UP. 'Tis only fair,
non?

happy days and...
  starry starry nights!

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oldcoot - 28 Aug 2008 20:37 GMT
> ...when chiding a cosmologist who has
> recently dubbed me "stupid" or some other such POS
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Heisenberg also for all misuse of the UP. 'Tis only fair,
> non?

Yowser. And ditto the thoroughly out-of-context photonic theory as
explaining all EM propagation through the 'Nothing'.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Aug 2008 13:46 GMT
Painius  There was a time before the big bang. We call this spacetime
Planck Time   It was just as real as Planck time is NOW   bert
Painius - 28 Aug 2008 16:49 GMT
> Painius  There was a time before the big bang. We call this spacetime
> Planck Time   It was just as real as Planck time is NOW   bert

Uh-uh, Bert.  By theoretical definition, time did not
begin until the advent of the Big Bang.  And Planck
time is simply the time it takes a beam of light to
travel a Planck length.

The significance of Planck time to the BB is that there
is speculation that one Planck time after the Big Bang,
the universe displayed properties equal to some of the
other Planck units.  (Some think that gravity must have
separated first due to its homogeneity to the others.
Some others think that the strong nuclear force is the
most likely candidate due to its strength.)

One Planck time is believed to be just the smallest
measurable unit of time.

happy days and...
  starry starry nights!

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Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.:  Thank *YOU* for reading!

P.P.S.:  http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com

G=EMC^2 Glazier - 28 Aug 2008 20:31 GMT
Painius  The BB came from inside out. Before the BB all that created all
there is was locked in the fabric of micro Planck spacetime. End of
story   Bert
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Aug 2008 13:41 GMT
oc  That is the reason to have an open mind and not to let imperial
thinkers take you down a dark alley.  If you can think nothing than you
end up with hocus pocus   bert
 
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