The Planet Moon - The Altogether
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Painius - 23 Jun 2008 00:23 GMT To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will someday be officially reclassified a...
Full Fledged "Major Planet"
1) The size of the Moon relative to most natural satellites and, more importantly, the Moon's size relative to our planet Earth.
2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's center toward the surface, or only about 1,000 miles below Earth's surface.
3) All major planets always "fall" toward the Sun. Satellites sometimes fall toward the Sun and sometimes move away from the Sun. Our Moon *always* falls toward the Sun. The Moon's open orbit around Earth means it never goes fully and completely all the way around our planet!
4) The way the Moon "fits in" with the other solid planets. Earth's sister planet, Selene, fits in very well with these other major planets!
5) Natural satellites orbit their primary planets directly above the planet's equator. Major planets orbit the Sun on or near the ecliptic. Selene's orbit around the Sun (and the Earth) is off the ecliptic by only 5 degrees. Selene varies fully 18-23 degrees off the Earth's equatorial plane.
6) The Moon's orbit is far too distant from Earth to be either a true satellite or a captured one. ____________________________________
Now, here's one more little thing for you to consider. Here it is, just for you...
Isaac Asimov, who was one of the most gifted people to ever grace and space our minds, was the one who thought of all these reasons. Asimov truly believed that one day, perhaps several years from the time he wrote his essays on the Moon, the global astronomy community would finally realize that our Solar System has another distinct major planet. Isaac Asimov truly believed that the Earth and Moon together form a binary planet system.
Well, official reclassification didn't happen in his lifetime. Isn't it interesting how science will move so quickly to rename some things in light of new evidence (for example, like changing the "Andromeda Nebula" to the "Andromeda Galaxy") and then move very slowly, or not seem to move ever at all, even when the evidence *so strongly* suggests that renaming is needed?
Ah, but it would take more than just a renaming, wouldn't it? It would take a reclassification of the Moon from "satellite" to "major planet". Even some classical poetry might be rendered impotent. We have been viewing the Moon as going completely around the Earth for far too long, i suppose.
Imagine... even back when the last holdout finally gave in to heliocentrism--the belief the Sun is the center of the Universe, and that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead of the other way around--even that last holdout could say, "Well, at least we still have the Moon. If nothing else goes around the Earth, at least the Moon still does!" And yet, even this we find to be wrong due to a limited perspective. Our Moon doesn't completely orbit the Earth at all. It orbits the Sun in careful step with the Earth. Maybe it's all just too hard to swallow?
Anyway, if long after i'm dead and gone, ya'll do decide to stop calling a planet a satellite, then you may need a new name for the Moon. I mean... you *can't* keep calling it "the Moon", after all, because a moon is defined as a satellite. Its other name, the Roman "Luna", won't do either because, while it happens to be a pretty name for the goddess of the Moon, it is still too closely identified with the "Moon is just a satellite" idea. On top of this, "Luna" has all those negative associations such as "lunatic" and "lunacy" and those ever so controversial "lunar" landing missions. <g>
For me, of all the potential new names for the Moon, by far the most beautiful, seductive one is...
Selene
That's pronounced seh-LAY-nay, and is the ancient Greek name for the goddess of the Moon. This name does not wear the cloak of "satellite" so much as "Moon" and "Luna" do.
I think "Selene" sounds rare and beautiful!...
much like our mysterious partner in space!...
very much like our rare and beautiful sister!...
planet Selene
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
BradGuth - 23 Jun 2008 01:05 GMT > To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will > someday be officially reclassified a... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and, more importantly, the Moon's size relative to our planet > Earth. There's also its relatively good mass and relative orbital velocity that's far more tidal impressive than any other moon.
> 2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of > the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 6) The Moon's orbit is far too distant from Earth to be either > a true satellite or a captured one. I and a good orbital simulator do not agree with your 6).
> ____________________________________ > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > move very slowly, or not seem to move ever at all, even when > the evidence *so strongly* suggests that renaming is needed? Our DARPA works in very mysterious ways, almost exactly as though it's Old Testament regulated, or worse yet Zionist/Nazi moderated to death.
> Ah, but it would take more than just a renaming, wouldn't it? > It would take a reclassification of the Moon from "satellite" to > "major planet". Even some classical poetry might be rendered > impotent. We have been viewing the Moon as going completely > around the Earth for far too long, i suppose. Bet yourself and all others can't objectively prove it has been continually with us, other than since the very last ice-age this Earth w/Selene is ever going to see..
Can we do the math of 2e20 N/sec * 3.6e3 * 24 * 365 = ???????
Can you convert some of that tidal holding force into raw energy?
> Imagine... even back when the last holdout finally gave in to > heliocentrism--the belief the Sun is the center of the Universe, [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net You and most of anyone other will likely be dead and gone before the Zionist/Nazi DARPA is ever going to give an inch on this one. Too bad, because I too kinda like Selene as our binary planet that has thawed us out from that last ice-age this planet w/Selene is ever going to see.
Even if we could manage to relocate Selene to Earth L1, as such this interactive orbital improvement would still be capable of keeping the 3% solar isolated plus AGW boosted environment from ever seeing another ice-age, as well as we'd still have roughly half the current level of ocean tides to deal with (except only on a 24 hour cycle basis), not to mention having fewer earthquakes and less other geothermal fluctuations to deal with.
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Painius - 23 Jun 2008 02:03 GMT >> To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will >> someday be officially reclassified a... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > There's also its relatively good mass and relative orbital velocity > that's far more tidal impressive than any other moon. Excellent! Thank you, Brad, for this is yet another good reason to consider Selene a major planet. It's tidal effect upon the Earth far outweighs the tidal effects of any of the moons on their planets.
>> 2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of >> the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I and a good orbital simulator do not agree with your 6). Why not? Keep in mind that this was just a mental exercise by Asimov to show that true satellites would only fall at certain distances from their planets. There has never been independent substantiation of his idea that i know of.
However, i consider it to be the strongest reason of all to see the Moon as really a planet. So i'd be interested to know the details of why you don't agree.
>> ____________________________________ >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > continually with us, other than since the very last ice-age this Earth > w/Selene is ever going to see.. Okay, this says to me that you, like Bert, think the Moon was captured by Earth. And you seem to think that it was captured relatively recently.
To be captured in the "normal" sense, that is to think that an object the size of the Moon can approach the Earth from any random trajectory and then be caught by the Earth, wind up in a nearly circular orbit around the Earth, and very stabley, in step, orbit the Sun with Earth almost right on the ecliptic, is way too much for me to swallow.
However, i've been thinking about something Ralph Hertle said about the Earth and Moon originally going around the Sun in almost the same orbit, but very far apart. One or the other might be going a little faster, and sooner or later catch up. This type of "capture" i can go along with.
> Can we do the math of 2e20 N/sec * 3.6e3 * 24 * 365 = ??????? > > Can you convert some of that tidal holding force into raw energy? That's not my area. <g>
>> Imagine... even back when the last holdout finally gave in to >> heliocentrism--the belief the Sun is the center of the Universe, [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth Hold on... isn't L1 located on a line between the Earth and the Moon? So if the Moon were moved to L1, wouldn't it be closer to Earth and so cause higher levels of ocean tides, more earthquakes and other geothermal fluctuations?
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
BradGuth - 24 Jun 2008 17:28 GMT > >> To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will > >> someday be officially reclassified a... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > upon the Earth far outweighs the tidal effects of any of the > moons on their planets. Selene also represents roughly twice the tidal affect upon our 98.5% fluid Earth as does our sun.
> >> 2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of > >> the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > to see the Moon as really a planet. So i'd be interested > to know the details of why you don't agree. I first of all agree that Selene is more likely a captured planet than natural moon.
However, a natural moon can be of a somewhat closer orbit than 385,000 km, as well as further off depending upon the tidal radius of the mother planet. A great deal of planet mass and/or greater mutual density could allow for natural moons to exist at much grater distances, as well as closer but at greater orbital velocity, whereas a relatively low mass planet (such as Mars) is going to be limited to holding onto nearby moons (natural or captured).
> >> ____________________________________ > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Moon was captured by Earth. And you seem to think > that it was captured relatively recently. It may have been a NEO for quite some time, but only as having been fixed into orbiting us as of roughly 12,500 BP.
> To be captured in the "normal" sense, that is to think > that an object the size of the Moon can approach the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Earth almost right on the ecliptic, is way too much for > me to swallow. Then just put everything we think we know into a public owned supercomputer, and let it fly, so to speak.
There is a remote chance that both Earth and Selene came into this solar system as a package deal. After all, Sirius-B before becoming a white dwarf did lose its tidal grip on any number of planets and their moons.
> However, i've been thinking about something Ralph > Hertle said about the Earth and Moon originally going > around the Sun in almost the same orbit, but very far > apart. One or the other might be going a little faster, > and sooner or later catch up. This type of "capture" i > can go along with. Earth L1, L2, L3 and L4 are each good initial capture locations. Earth L2 or L1 are perhaps best suited.
> > Can we do the math of 2e20 N/sec * 3.6e3 * 24 * 365 = ??????? > > > Can you convert some of that tidal holding force into raw energy? > > That's not my area. <g> Global warming via Selene/moon is never any ones area of expertise.
> >> Imagine... even back when the last holdout finally gave in to > >> heliocentrism--the belief the Sun is the center of the Universe, [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > higher levels of ocean tides, more earthquakes > and other geothermal fluctuations? Earth L1 is always between Earth and Sol. Moving our moon out to being interactively managed within the Earth L1, as a managed halo orbit, would become extremely beneficial to life as we know it.
The Earth-Moon L1 or just moon L1 (ML1) is always situated between Earth and our moon, +/- x km, offering a near zero gravity zone that's roughly 85% from Earth or 15% away from the moon. Check out "Clarke Station".
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Saul Levy - 30 Jun 2008 07:47 GMT There is no evidence for any of this, BradBoi! lmfjao!
Saul Levy
>Selene also represents roughly twice the tidal affect upon our 98.5% >fluid Earth as does our sun. [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > >Global warming via Selene/moon is never any ones area of expertise.
>> > You and most of anyone other will likely be dead and gone before the >> > Zionist/Nazi DARPA is ever going to give an inch on this one. Too [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth Hagar - 23 Jun 2008 18:03 GMT > To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will > someday be officially reclassified a... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and, more importantly, the Moon's size relative to our planet > Earth. There are moons in the solar system which are larger than Mercury and Pluto, yet they will retain with the monicker "moons" ??
> 2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of > the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's > center toward the surface, or only about 1,000 miles below > Earth's surface. You said it yourself, the "barycenter" is irrelevant.
> 3) All major planets always "fall" toward the Sun. Satellites > sometimes fall toward the Sun and sometimes move away > from the Sun. Our Moon *always* falls toward the Sun. The > Moon's open orbit around Earth means it never goes fully and > completely all the way around our planet! All planet fall towards the Sun, agreed. Their orbital velocity creates the centrifugal counter balance to that tendency, thus maintaining a stable orbit. The Moon falls towards Earth, with a tiny impact from the Sun. During the first 15 day cycle from opposition to conjunction, the Sun's pull speed it up the Moon, whereas during the second monthly cycle from conjunction back to opposition, the Earth reins it back in again. This in all likelihood causes a slightly elliptical orbit, the apex of which is always pointed towards the Sun.
> 4) The way the Moon "fits in" with the other solid planets. > Earth's sister planet, Selene, fits in very well with these other > major planets! Yes, but all other planets orbit the Sun. Moons orbit planets. That single point alone will never give Selene planetary status acceptance.
> 5) Natural satellites orbit their primary planets directly > above the planet's equator. Major planets orbit the Sun on > or near the ecliptic. Selene's orbit around the Sun (and the > Earth) is off the ecliptic by only 5 degrees. Selene varies > fully 18-23 degrees off the Earth's equatorial plane. You keep bringing up "Selene's orbits around the Sun". Selene's orbit is around the Earth, period. The Earth carries it around the Sun and it's inclination has nothing to do with anything. So the Earth is 5 degrees off the ecliptic ... no problem. The Moon orbits the Earth around its ecliptic (equator), but the Earth's axis is also tilted by 23.5 degrees, so the Moon's relationship to the Solar ecliptic is 23.5 degrees plus 5 degrees during 6 months of the years and 23.5 degrees minus 5 degrees for the rest of the year.
> 6) The Moon's orbit is far too distant from Earth to be either > a true satellite or a captured one. Of all the scenarios regarding the Moon's origin, the impact one is still the most viable. A body the size of the Earth simply cannot "capture" an object the size of the Moon. The Sun might be able to, but not the Earth. It is also a fact that the Moon is receding from Earth about 2 inches per year. Calculate that backwards and you come up with a Roche Limit of approximately 22,000 miles, about 4.2B years ago, when the cataclysmic event is said to have happened.
Lastly, the barycenter should not matter, but Selene's only chance to be named a Planet would be as part of a Earth-Moon binary planetary system, but to qualify for that, the barycenter should be outside the circumference of the larger of the two. Well, it isn't.
Painius - 23 Jun 2008 20:13 GMT A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A B B O T
I just *love* the way you keep leaving me open, Hagar! It's almost as if you're buckin' for "straight man"...
**You Abbot -- Me Costello !** <g>
>> To get it all together here are the reasons why the Moon will >> someday be officially reclassified a... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > There are moons in the solar system which are larger than Mercury and > Pluto, yet they will retain with the monicker "moons" ?? Yes, due to their size relative to their primary planets! And due to their "closed" orbits around their primaries, and due to all the other attributes they share with all natural satellites and do NOT share with planet Selene.
>> 2) The "barycenter", also called "center of gravity" (CG) of >> the Earth-Moon system is about 3,000 miles out from Earth's >> center toward the surface, or only about 1,000 miles below >> Earth's surface. > > You said it yourself, the "barycenter" is irrelevant. Not quite... I said that you might be correct that the position of the barycenter (whether or not it lies within or without the larger body) is irrelevant. And as you may recall, i qualified this statement with the strong feeling that the fact that the Earth/Moon CG is so much closer to the surface of Earth, but that all the satellites have barycenters that are so much closer to their planets' centers, is HIGHLY relevant!
>> 3) All major planets always "fall" toward the Sun. Satellites >> sometimes fall toward the Sun and sometimes move away [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > This in all likelihood causes a slightly elliptical orbit, the apex of > which is always pointed towards the Sun. Sort of like if you are driving around in a huge circle, and your steering of the wheels is always to the left.
But if you're a satellite, you sometimes have to turn to the right. Selene is always "driven" to the left!
>> 4) The way the Moon "fits in" with the other solid planets. >> Earth's sister planet, Selene, fits in very well with these other >> major planets! > > Yes, but all other planets orbit the Sun. Moons orbit planets. That > single point alone will never give Selene planetary status acceptance. As previously shown, planet Selene and planet Earth both track around a common barycenter, however their complex movement around the Sun is such that Selene never completely orbits the Earth, and all of these points together WILL FORCE the IAU to accept that our Moon is a Full-Fledged Major Planet in its own right!... Officially!
Or Else get laughed off the podium! (It's just as silly to refer to Selene as a satellite as it was to call Pluto a major planet!)
>> 5) Natural satellites orbit their primary planets directly >> above the planet's equator. Major planets orbit the Sun on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > degrees during 6 months of the years and 23.5 degrees minus 5 degrees for > the rest of the year. There is so much wrong with the above paragraph, i hardly know where to begin! To begin with, Earth is NOT 5 degrees off the ecliptic, Hagar! The ecliptic plane is DEFINED by Earth's orbit around the Sun! So Earth is ZERO degrees off the ecliptic! It is planet Selene that is 5 degrees off the ecliptic! As for the rest of the inconsistency, i leave it to you.
>> 6) The Moon's orbit is far too distant from Earth to be either >> a true satellite or a captured one. > > Of all the scenarios regarding the Moon's origin, the impact one is still > the most viable. A body the size of the Earth simply cannot "capture" an > object the size of the Moon. The Sun might be able to, but not the Earth. Not long ago i agreed with this. However, i'm starting to like Ralph Hertle's idea that the Moon and Earth were orbiting the Sun in similar orbits, but the two planets or protoplanets were not close to each other. Just their *orbits* were very near each other. Then since one was going just a little faster than the other, that body slowly caught up to the other. After catching up, the two bodies smoothly integrated into a binary planet system.
> It is also a fact that the Moon is receding from Earth about 2 inches per > year. Calculate that backwards and you come up with a Roche Limit of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but to qualify for that, the barycenter should be outside the > circumference of the larger of the two. Well, it isn't. Ah, so you DO think the barycenter is relevant, so much relevant in fact that it's the one thing that makes all the difference.
Baloney.
Next thing you know, you'll be screaming how Jupiter must be a full-fledged star just because the Sun/Jupiter barycenter lies just outside the surface of the Sun.
Bullcheet!
You are hereby officially laughed off the podium, and you're in good company... the IAU.
And by the way... Who's on first? What's the guy's name on second? and so on, and so on. <g>
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
Hagar - 24 Jun 2008 03:08 GMT >A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A B B O T > > I just *love* the way you keep leaving me open, Hagar! It's > almost as if you're buckin' for "straight man"... > > **You Abbot -- Me Costello !** Not quite, I am the logical thinker, you are vehemently Moon planetoid obsessive. You will twist anything known to man to get your point across. Unfortunately, you fail at every juncture.
So, taking a chance on sounding repetitious (again), here are my points:
1) The Moon revolves around the Earth ... completely, every 30.5 days or so, but it goes all the way around. The inclination of its orbit is totally irrelevant. Nobody really gives a sh.t whether there are "loops" or not when viewed from the surface of the Sun, Venus, Betelgeuse or the Magellanic Cloud. It doesn't matter, ok. Viewed from the Earth, it goes round and round and ... you get the drift.
2) If the Moon is to be considered a Planet, then all other Moons in the Solar System, larger then the Moon, should be considered planets as well. Now don't bring up your "barycenter" sh.t again, because it does not matter one iota.
3) You are a smart dude, obviously, but you, for some unknown reason, got hung up on a proposition that just won't hold sway in the real world. The Earth capturing the Moon as it drifted by ... you can't be serious. It's like a Kenworth doing 80 mph on the freeway suddenly sucking in a Honda Civic and making it part of his "Convoy". Physically impossible.
4) I'm giving up on this argument. Even though I understand that it is a noble cause in your eyes and I also am sure that your heart is in the right place and I wish you all the success in your endeavor. The IAU says screw you, we just got through f.cking you out of Pluto as a planet. And there are many more where Pluto came from, once we have the means to see that far. You'll be a busy buckaroo sorting all that out.
5) I can guarantee one thing, though, the Moon will never become a planet. Looks like one, moves like one, has a once a month rotational period, but it's still a Moon.
Painius - 24 Jun 2008 11:09 GMT >> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A B B O T >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > obsessive. You will twist anything known to man to get your point across. > Unfortunately, you fail at every juncture. If you truly thought logically, then you wouldn't continue to deny the FACTS Asimov and i have listed. And it is you who keep dancing to Chubby Checker, not me!
> So, taking a chance on sounding repetitious (again), here are my points: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Magellanic Cloud. It doesn't matter, ok. Viewed from the Earth, it goes > round and round and ... you get the drift. Yeah, like... the Sun goes 'round the Earth when viewed from Earth. Makes all the sense in the world...
...to anyone with a sadly limited point of view.
> 2) If the Moon is to be considered a Planet, then all other Moons in the > Solar System, larger then the Moon, should be considered planets as well. > Now don't bring up your "barycenter" sh.t again, because it does not > matter one iota. Oh no, apparently the barycenter is *everything* to you, Hagar. You keep saying it's "not relevant", then you turn around and treat the barycenter as if it's all that matters.
So don't bring up YOUR inconsistent barycenter sh.t again!
> 3) You are a smart dude, obviously, but you, for some unknown reason, got > hung up on a proposition that just won't hold sway in the real world. The > Earth capturing the Moon as it drifted by ... you can't be serious. It's > like a Kenworth doing 80 mph on the freeway suddenly sucking in a Honda > Civic and making it part of his "Convoy". Physically impossible. You obviously have NO clue as to the suction power of a semi-tractor-trailer rig. You should look things up before making such sadly uninformed statements!
> 4) I'm giving up on this argument. Even though I understand that it is a > noble cause in your eyes and I also am sure that your heart is in the > right place and I wish you all the success in your endeavor. The IAU says > screw you, we just got through f.cking you out of Pluto as a planet. And > there are many more where Pluto came from, once we have the means to see > that far. You'll be a busy buckaroo sorting all that out. Thank you for giving up and giving me the last word, Hagie! And i'll say it again...
If Pluto had not been fortuitously (to say the least) found by Tombaugh, if Pluto had instead been discovered in the 90's along with the rest of the KBO's, i'd like to hear what you or anybody else would say if someone proposed to call Pluto a "major planet". Pluto's a comet wannabee like the rest of the objects in the Kuiper Belt.
And BTW, Pluto is STILL a planet... a "dwarf" planet.
Thank you for your well wishes, Hagar. I'm sure that success is right around the corner!
> 5) I can guarantee one thing, though, the Moon will never become a > planet. Looks like one, moves like one, has a once a month rotational > period, but it's still a Moon. No, it's still *the* Moon, and in name only. The Moon doesn't have to "become" a planet, Hagester, because it already *is* a planet. Selene, the Moon, is a bonyfide full-fledged major planet in its own right, so your silly "guarantee" is just a buncha corn flakes that you can eat for breakfast.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
oldcoot - 24 Jun 2008 16:32 GMT Not to belabor the point y'all, but it's been suggested that a simple resolution would be to simply call the moon the Pl'oon. :-)
Painius - 24 Jun 2008 18:03 GMT > Not to belabor the point y'all, but it's been suggested that a simple > resolution would be to simply call the moon the Pl'oon. :-) < big smile >
Oc! You're suggesting a compromise!
< big frown >
I **HATE** compromise!
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
oldcoot - 25 Jun 2008 13:35 GMT > > Not to belabor the point y'all, but it's been suggested that a simple > > resolution would be to simply call the moon the Pl'oon. :-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I **HATE** compromise! But you still gotta defer to different frames of referance. To the purely earthbound, it's a satellite, just "the moon" and nothing more. To the frame 'waaay out "north" or "south" of the solar system, it's *still* the captive satellite of a planet orbiting the sun. Whether its orbit is scallopy of 'loopy' is of no relevance to its status as a satellite.
In order to qualify as a planet, it would have to be in a solar orbit of its own, maybe with a captive 'moon' or two of its own. At least that's `my' F.O.R. :-)
BradGuth - 25 Jun 2008 14:51 GMT > > > Not to belabor the point y'all, but it's been suggested that a simple > > > resolution would be to simply call the moon the Pl'oon. :-) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that's `my' F.O.R. > :-) Then perhaps Earth is the satellite of Selene.
Why does a moon have to be the smaller or less massive item?
Binary stars, black holes and planets do exist, don't they?
What kind of intellectual fuckology game of Old Testament incest are you folks of DARPA playing today?
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
oldcoot - 25 Jun 2008 16:23 GMT >Binary stars, black holes and planets do >exist, don't they? Yeah, but are not such binaries of more or less equal mass? Is the moon's mass relative to the Earth's really sufficient to qualify it as a binary with the earth vis-a-vis a satellite? Somehow, mass-wise it just don't jibe.
Painius - 25 Jun 2008 17:30 GMT > Brad Guth writted... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > binary with the earth vis-a-vis a satellite? Somehow, mass-wise it just > don't jibe. Sure it does! and by your definition...
A planet ". . . would have to be in a solar orbit of its own, maybe with a captive 'moon' or two of its own. . . ."
How does this leave room for *any* binary planet system? Take Pluto and Charon as an example. Even though Pluto and Charon are no longer "major planet and moon", there were dozens of astronomers who, before the meltdown of Pluto's major planet status, considered the two to be a prime example of a binary planet system. And this even though Charon does not always "fall" toward the Sun, but instead sometimes moves toward the Sun and sometimes away from the Sun. But especially, neither Pluto nor its moon, Charon, are "in a Solar orbit of its own". No matter how one defines a double-planet system, even if both are exactly the same size and mass, neither would ever "be in a Solar orbit of its own", Bill.
Your definition is fine for single planets, but when you think about it, your definition above excludes Earth, for whether or not one accepts the Moon as a planet, Earth is definitely NOT in a Solar orbit of its own. Earth tracks around the Sun in well-tuned step with planet Selene!
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
oldcoot - 25 Jun 2008 17:46 GMT > > Brad Guth writted... > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > NOT in a Solar orbit of its own. Earth tracks around the > Sun in well-tuned step with planet Selene! ...But considering that the moon's mass is just a bit over 1% of Earth's mass, it hardly qualifies as a 'twin planet'. If mass ratio is any consideration, it is still a mere satellite of its primary (IMHO). But if one "wants" it to be a planet badly enough, there are enough arguments to "make" it one. Hey, still friends i hope. :-)
Painius - 26 Jun 2008 09:31 GMT > . . . > But if one "wants" it to be a planet badly enough, there are enough > arguments to "make" it one. Hey, still friends i hope. :-) That was never in question, Bill. If in the face of undeniable evidence that the Moon "demonstrates itself" as a full-fledged major planet in its own right, you feel that the minor differences far outweigh the major similarities, then maybe in the future you won't have as big a problem with people who so fervently deny the CBB model and flowing space!
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
oldcoot - 26 Jun 2008 16:03 GMT > If in the face of > undeniable evidence that the Moon "demonstrates > itself" as a full-fledged major planet in its own right, > you feel that the minor differences far outweigh the > major similarities... I wuz goin' by the colossal mass difference between the moon and its primary, something like .0123 to one. That's barely over *one percent* of Earth's mass, which IMHO would surely put it in the category of a captive satellite. Whereas if it were in a solar orbit all its own, then it *would* be a planet in the league with Mercury etc.
oldcoot - 26 Jun 2008 17:10 GMT Here's an interesting switcharoo regarding the Pl'oon --
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20080626/sc_space/bitsofancientearthhiddenonthemoon
Painius - 26 Jun 2008 19:50 GMT >> If in the face of >> undeniable evidence that the Moon "demonstrates [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > captive satellite. Whereas if it were in a solar orbit all its own, > then it *would* be a planet in the league with Mercury etc. ". . . colossal mass difference . . .", hmm.
Earth's mass is 81.3 times the mass of the Moon. So maybe you're right, Bill. It certainly *sounds* like a lot. But let's take a look at some *truly* colossal mass differences, shall we? The five satellites that would have any chance at all of whipping the Moon are the Galilean moons and Saturn's Titan. Here's how they compare with their primary planets...
Jupiter has ... 39,559 times the mass of Europa (.0025%) ... 21,256 times the mass of Io (.0047%) ... 17,646 times the mass of Callisto (.0057%) ... 12,811 times the mass of Ganymede (.0078%)
Saturn has .... 4,226 times the mass of Titan (.024%)
Uranus has ... 24,620 times the mass of Titania (.0041%)
Neptune has .. 4,786 times the mass of Triton (.021%)
Earth has ...... 81 times the mass of Selene (1.23%)
"81 times the mass" just doesn't seem "colossal" to me by comparison. I don't know where one ought to draw the line, but when this comparison is added to all the other reasons for seeing Selene as a planet instead of a satellite, it seems to me that Selene very certainly demonstrates itself to be exactly what it is...
a full-fledged major planet in its own right!
And i just thought of *another* reason in the Moon's favor. I'll post it as soon as i can get to it.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
oldcoot - 27 Jun 2008 01:54 GMT > ..it seems to me that Selene very > certainly demonstrates itself to be exactly what it is... > > a full-fledged major planet in its own right! ...If just twern't for its being in captive orbit around that big blue mamoo and the system's barycenter being inside the BBM. :-)
Painius - 27 Jun 2008 14:54 GMT >> ..it seems to me that Selene very >> certainly demonstrates itself to be exactly what it is... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ...If just twern't for its being in captive orbit around that big blue > mamoo and the system's barycenter being inside the BBM. :-) Oh! I see that i left out two of the *really* colossal mass differences...
Planet Mars is 60 million times the mass of its moon, Phobos, and fully 428 million times the mass of its other moon, Deimos. How about *those* for colossal mass differences !!! And Earth is a mere, tiny 81 times the mass of planet Selene, tch tch.
Frame of reference, oc! Earth is just as much a captive of Selene as the other way around. Neither one is able to escape the other. If you deny this, then you must also deny the tremendous tidal and rotation period effects that planet Selene has on Earth.
And how many times must it be said? Whether or not the barycenter is inside or outside Earth should not matter so much as the fact that its only 1/8 of Earth's diameter down inside Earth, and the fact that EVERY satellite shares a barycenter with its primary that is extremely close to the center of the primary!
If the barycenter being outside the Sun doesn't make Jupiter a star, then the barycenter being just inside the Earth's surface shouldn't deny Selene's being a planet. And **especially** in light of all the other reasons.
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
BradGuth - 30 Jun 2008 05:40 GMT > >> ..it seems to me that Selene very > >> certainly demonstrates itself to be exactly what it is... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net Rabbi oldcoot doesn't have such Old Testament options, especially if it involves the truth.
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Painius - 25 Jun 2008 17:43 GMT > Somehow, mass-wise it just don't jibe. Planet Selene has 25% the mass of Mercury and nearly 6 (SIX) times the mass of Pluto! There's no question that this one parameter, that of mass, is by no means conclusive all on its own. But you put this together with all the other reasons, present it as a package deal, and all it can do is help the argument that the Moon is a full- fledged major planet in its own right!
happy days and... starry starry nights!
 Signature Indelibly yours, Paine Ellsworth
P.S.: Thank YOU for reading!
P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net
BradGuth - 25 Jun 2008 18:03 GMT > > Somehow, mass-wise it just don't jibe. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > P.P.S.: http://painellsworth.net The DARPA mainstream status quo is opposed to anything that's outside of their cozy Old Testament status quo box.
Notice how each and most every one of our public owned supercomputers is taboo/nondisclosure rated, as though need-to-know and otherwise kept off-limits as to running such complex simulations that could easily demonstrate a few of these what-if notions of how certain planets and moons came to past (in 3D interactive animated eye-candy mode none the less).
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Saul Levy - 30 Jun 2008 20:08 GMT And if you had a supercomputer, BradBoi, what would you do with it? lmfjao!
You can't program them. You gonna learn how? I doubt it.
Microcomputers have been available since before 1977 (the Radio Shack TRS-80). Why didn't you learn how to program back then? It doesn't matter what computer you learn on, they are all basically the same.
Saul Levy
>The DARPA mainstream status quo is opposed to anything that's outside >of their cozy Old Testament status quo box. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BradGuth - 25 Jun 2008 17:51 GMT > >Binary stars, black holes and planets do > >exist, don't they? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > binary with the earth vis-a-vis a satellite? Somehow, mass-wise it just > don't jibe. Sirius-B used to be worth 6+ solar mass, while Sirius-A was likely worth just one solar mass (a total of 7+ solar mass). Nowadays, the two combined are worth only 3 solar mass, Sirius-B having lost their tidal radius grip on any number of planets and moons.
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Saul Levy - 30 Jun 2008 07:55 GMT What planets and moons, BradBoi? lmfjao!
There are NO KNOWN PLANETS OR MOONS around Sirius A/B.
Saul Levy
>> >Binary stars, black holes and planets do >> >exist, don't they? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BradGuth - 30 Jun 2008 05:37 GMT > >Binary stars, black holes and planets do > >exist, don't they? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > binary with the earth vis-a-vis a satellite? Somehow, mass-wise it just > don't jibe. How massive was Sirius-B prior to going into its red giant phase?
How massive was Sirius-A prior to Sirius-B going red giant?
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Saul Levy - 02 Jul 2008 21:20 GMT Only astronomers care about such things, BradBoi! lmfjao!
Why does this bother you so much?
How about a new period for the Sun's orbit around Sirius A/B? Maybe it's SHORTER now? I'd worry a lot if I was you about that possibility!
And about a new ICE AGE coming!
Saul Levy
>> >Binary stars, black holes and planets do >> >exist, don't they? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth Saul Levy - 30 Jun 2008 08:01 GMT Order of precedence, BradBoi! lmfjao!
Saul Levy
>Then perhaps Earth is the satellite of Selene. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
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