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Earth will manage to get hotter

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BradGuth - 16 May 2007 03:31 GMT
In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".

I honestly believe that our Earth is nearing an important crossroad of
affordably sustaining life as we know it.  I'm thinking we either
accept our fate and go with the flow as we adapt the best we can, or
die trying.  Since we can't all become rich and powerful, it's your
personal choice of continually doing absolutely nothing or doing
something constructive, even if it's merely thinking in a positive and
thus constructive minset sort of way.  However, the very worse you can
possibly do is to favor the ongoing denaial of global warming, because
that kind of naysay mindset is only going to further expedite the
existing bad situation, that's clearly more than bad enough as it is.

Using that icy orb of Sedna, as for becoming situated within Earth's
L1, for obtaining a barely sufficient spot of solar shade (especially
once it's thick layer of surface ice is gone), is perhaps at best a
1000+ year plan, and at the present ongoing demise of our environment
and of it's badly failing magnetosphere, even if the relocation of
Sedna were technically and otherwise affordably doable, I believe we
do not have that thousand plus year option.

Doing nothing but cleaning up our terrestrial act is also not an
option unless a great deal of fusion energy or perhaps going deep for
that of extracting geothermal energy becomes the norm of giving us an
affordably clean 100 teraWatts to work with (on a global end-user
scale, $.01/kwhr is affordable, whereas $.10/kwhr is not going to be
affordable to the lower 90% of humanity).  If all the "Ice Sheets
Melt", we're in a whole lot deeper GW trouble than merely having to
swim and otherwise eat jellyfish because, of what's coming around the
next corner is anything but all that survivable, unless the evolution
of our DNA becomes rad-hard, or we've become as rich and powerful as
GW Bush, Dick Cheney and Exxon.

I honestly believe this argument on behalf of blocking out a
sufficient portion of our sun is all about sustaining and/or improving
the quality of life as we know it.  If that focus or motive on behalf
of salvaging whatever's left of our badly failing environment takes on
the Guth lose cannon form of accomplishing my LSE-CM/ISS, or that of
my VL2 POOF City as part of the ultimate game plan, while our moon is
gradually getting relocated to Earth's L1, then so be it.

As to the perfectly valid argument(s) or honest topic jest of
artificially blocking out a little more than sufficient portion of our
sun, as such this substantial plan of action is all about sustaining
and/or improving the quality of all life.

Not exactly sure how I'd gotten that first round of those numbers off
by so much, but once again, according to another fresh run of my PC/
CAD program with the following items;

Our sun at given a fairly robust 700,000,000 m radius
Earth along w/50 km atmosphere at 6,428,000 m radius
That salty old moon at the usual 1,738,000 m radius
Earth's L1 placement of the moon at 1,537,600,000 m

A given surface location could perceive a 5.92% reduction, however
incorporating the whole realm of mother Earth is not nearly so
impressive, whereas the actual global worth of that solar isolation
factor, if to be including our badly polluted atmosphere, should
become much less than of that spot amount, perhaps worth as little as
1.645% or -22.5 w/m2) as having been derived by our moon parked at
Earth's L1, as well as having accomplished a whole lot less of those
pesky tidal issues, and of those remaining tides should otherwise
become very consistent.  The best tidal estimate that I can accomplish
thus far, is coming up with the moderated new and improved sun + (moon
at Earth L1) as becoming worth 50.4% of our existing lunar tide.

A 50% reduction in tidal action is perhaps a little less important to
ocean and other terrestrial life than we've been giving it credit.
Most tidal accommodated life can manage to adapt, some of which
getting by along with a little of our best intelligent design, as
transitional habitat help wherever necessary.

This moon relocation process of getting that mascon situated out to
Earth's L1 (roughly 4X further away than it's current orbital trek
that has been doing us more harm than good) is going to take a century
or more, and therefore I'm not some evil messenger from hell that's
imposing an overnight change upon whatever terrestrial life that we
know of, that has attached its life endurance to our existing lunar
cycle and ocean tidal issues.

There will be some unfortunate extinctions of life which simply can
not adapt, though hopefully humanity will not become one of those.
However, at the very same time, other existing species that are
currently finding it downright difficult or nearly impossible to
survive as is, as such will likely bloom or otherwise better populate
under the greatly improved conditions of their having less terrestrial
trauma to deal with.

A measured reduction in global warming (in good part due to the solar
isolation afforded by the moon itself), along with having accomplished
much less gravity/tidal trauma taking place (inside and out), is what
should by rights benefit most all known species of life on Earth
(hopefully just short of bringing on another ice age).

What we honestly need most for this daunting task of relocating our
moon to Earth's L1, is having that spendy supercomputer running all of
its parallel CPUs off the charts, doing exactly whatever's necessary
for figuring out what's doable, and otherwise telling us whatever else
needs to be avoided at all cost.  If you should happen to have such
supercomputer access, and wouldn't terribly mind running off a few of
these weird ideas, as such I'd like to see a few of those what-if
results in 3D animation.
-
Brad Guth
Eric Gisse - 16 May 2007 03:37 GMT
> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".

You don't have to be nostra-f.cking-damus to figure that one out.

[...]
BradGuth - 16 May 2007 03:52 GMT
> > In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>
> You don't have to be nostra-f.cking-damus to figure that one out.
>
> [...]

Perhaps how true, but you most certainly do have to be correct as to
the primary cause of our GW fiasco.

Much like yourself and most others, your "nostra-f.cking-damus" hasn't
an honest clue.
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 16 May 2007 17:11 GMT
>> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>
> You don't have to be nostra-f.cking-damus to figure that one out.
>
> [...]

If you want real idiocy, follow Painius' and OldCoot defend their push
(Le Sage) gravity theory....

Signature

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poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).

Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.

John "C" - 16 May 2007 17:40 GMT
> >> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> If you want real idiocy, follow Art Deco and myself as we post "crap".

We will watch and laugh, Duckie-Wuckie.

HJ
Eric Gisse - 16 May 2007 21:28 GMT
On May 16, 9:11 am, Phineas T Puddleduck
<phineaspuddled...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> >> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you want real idiocy, follow Painius' and OldCoot defend their push
> (Le Sage) gravity theory....

10 bucks says their gravity "theory" is a k/r^2 force law.

> --
> COOSN-174-07-82116: Official Science Team mascot and alt.astronomy's favourite
>  poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).
>
> Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
>  singularity.
Phineas T Puddleduck - 16 May 2007 21:45 GMT
> On May 16, 9:11 am, Phineas T Puddleduck
> <phineaspuddled...@googlemail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 10 bucks says their gravity "theory" is a k/r^2 force law.

If I said Lindner and Shifman (?) would you laugh....

Apparently gravity and the SNF are the same thing as fluid space flows
into the centre of masses of particles and disappears to reappear at
the edge of the universe.....

Signature

COOSN-174-07-82116: Official Science Team mascot and alt.astronomy's favourite
poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).

Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.

Art Deco - 19 May 2007 16:50 GMT
>> On May 16, 9:11 am, Phineas T Puddleduck
>> <phineaspuddled...@googlemail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>into the centre of masses of particles and disappears to reappear at
>the edge of the universe.....

Not only does the magic fluid know when and when not to push matter
around, it also is the guts of all atomic and subatomic particles, and
can rearrange itself to cause electric and magnetic fields.

Signature

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"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
 -- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Of doing Venus in person would obviously incorporate a composite
rigid airship, along with it's internal cache of frozen pizza and
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 -- Brad Guth, bigoted racist

"You really are one of the litsiest people I know, Mr. Deco."
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BradGuth - 16 May 2007 19:01 GMT
The future of *what if* is actually right here and now, as mostly
happening below our two left feet and otherwise in front of our
dumbfounded eyes.

Using our moon as the ultimate shade of our salvation, over sufficient
time and without the human footprint of soot and many other nasty/
toxic contributions, -22.5 w/m2 should by rights bring on one of those
ice ages.  However, along with our human soot and thereby of our
continued global dimming (by perhaps yet another percentage point)
that's worth 6.85 w/m2, plus tossing in the added 100 teraWatts of
artificially produced energy should further offset the onset of cold
by another .1956 w/m2, making our new and improved future along with
our (6.85 + 0.1956) = 7.0456 w/m2 as based upon our nifty contribution
of having expanded our oceans, plus much other atmospheric soot and
having introduced those 100 teraWatts into creating a the improved
global thermal budget end result of accomplishing -15.454 w/m2, which
should be just a few watts/m2 short of bringing on that full-blown ice
age.

In other words, with that moon parked at Earth's L1 we'd have
ourselves shade to burn (sort of speak), along with no future shortage
of those winter Olympic locations, as well as we'd have much fewer of
those lethal storms, fewer and less extensive forest fires, and lots
of those badly GW traumatised polar bares and other polar realm
dependent species that should very much thank us.

Of course once again, this perfectly deductive analogy of "what if" is
yet another ideal computer simulation of 3D worthy animation, that
which any supercomputer worth its parallel CPU salt can give us most
all of those matter of fact answers, of whatever these "what ifs" have
to contribute to our future of somehow getting us by as is w/o
relocating our moon, or that of the new and improved results as
artificially created by way of having relocated that moon of ours out
to Earth's L1.

Naturally, those future moon expedition missions for obtaining the
likes of He3 and many other raw elements will end up taking us four
times as long for the to/from commute, but that's a small price to pay
for the salvation of Earth, wouldn't you say!

BTW;  a mostly robotic established moon observatory, or simply
utilized as the secondary S-band signal reflector, or whatever radar
image receiving aperture, on behalf of an Earth based or even the
moon-->L1-->Earth radar imaging alternative, should by rights get
rather impressive, as we'd have the total solar isolation of the
moon's L1 that's facing Earth to accommodate my LSE-CM/ISS w/tether
dipole element reaching to within 2r of Earth (a bit closer if you'd
dare), as well as having the combined (Earth+moon) L2 for
accomplishing a whole lot better solar related science.  Again, all of
that being within the existing supercomputer expertise of telling us
exactly those sorts of "what if" matter of hard facts.
-
Brad Guth
BradGuth - 17 May 2007 17:45 GMT
> The future of *what if* is actually right here and now, as mostly
> happening below our two left feet and otherwise in front of our
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> exactly those sorts of "what if" matter of hard facts.
> -BradGuth

Relocating our moon from its existing orbit, out to being parked
within the orbit of Earth's L1 is an all around win-win for everything
and everyone on Earth, although at least half the moon is going to
become a little worse off (sorry about that).

At accomplishing this tidal moderation, of what should become worth
slightly more than half of our existing tidal forced situation, as
such is going to extensively moderate the amount of this orbiting
mascon energy that's unavoidably converting into various forms of
terrestrial friction, and thus into creating heat, not to mention the
little reduction in reflected and secondary IR/FIR that's derived from
our moon that will obviously no longer exist.

The amount of shade or solar isolation created by way of having our
moon at Earth's L1 is of course the primary benefit, whereas of my
best swag thus far suggesting that it'll essentially cause a global
insolation reduction of -22.5 watts/m2.  According to many other forms
and expertise of global warming research, that's offering us a
compensation worth of better than three times the amount estimated as
the surplus or excess of energy that's being supposedly responsible
for having created our environment's recent past, existing and
continually warming situation, that's not looking good if you happen
to be made of ice or otherwise manage to survive because of snow and
ice.
-
Brad Guth
The Ghost In The Machine - 20 May 2007 01:32 GMT
In sci.physics, BradGuth
<bradguth@gmail.com>
wrote
on 17 May 2007 09:45:56 -0700
<1179420356.081772.200630@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>:

[snip for brevity]

> Relocating our moon from its existing orbit, out to being parked
> within the orbit of Earth's L1 is an all around win-win for everything
> and everyone on Earth, although at least half the moon is going to
> become a little worse off (sorry about that).

It would be, if you can explain how we could -- somehow --
get two pieces of space rock -- I'm not sure how big they/d
have to be, but it depends on the thrust -- to impact the
Moon at precisely the right points to change its orbit
from its current affair to the L1 Lagrange point.

For the record, the moon is 7.35 * 10^22 kg and is
currently orbiting at a speed of about 1 km/s, so we're
talking quite a momentum shift here.  Best I can do is a
few decades, with the incoming rocks hurtling in at about
72 km/s.  (30 km/s Earth velocity, 42 km/s velocity of
the rock as it comes in a retrograde orbit from very far out.)

I'll admit to wondering whether we'd have any detrius
kicked up and fall on Earth or not.  At best, we'd have
two additional moons.  At worst, we'd have a hell of a
pair of collisions with Earth as the spent rocks bounce
off the Moon then hurtle directly towards our muddy marble.

And then there's the fine tuning; if the Moon isn't placed
at exactly the Lagrange point, how are we going to move it?

[rest snipped]

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Hagar - 16 May 2007 23:03 GMT
> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".

> snip <

Astronomers just discovered that Mars and even remote Neptune are warming
at about the same rate as god ole mother Earth.

That would indicate that the whole GW hullabaloo is a bunch of voodoo
science, reminiscent of the predicted doomsday Y2K fiasco, which also never
materialized.

We're going through a cycle and that's all there is to it.  A little heat
wave is an inconvenience, but the subsequent ice age (and that is also part
of the cycle, once the oceanic conveyor belt comes to a sloshing halt)  is
what those enviro-whacko-dippos should be worried about.
No amount of hand wringing or Al Gore inspired billion dollar spending
sprees will have any effect on the natural fluctuations of the grander
scheme of the Universe.

The following space is reserved for the banal comments of the Dynamic
DecoDuck Duo.  Knock yourselves out, pheathered phuckers.
John "C" - 17 May 2007 00:10 GMT
> > In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The following space is reserved for the banal comments of the Dynamic
> DecoDuck Duo.  Knock yourselves out, pheathered phuckers.

Oh they will, rest assured.

HJ
T Wake - 17 May 2007 00:40 GMT
>> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>
>> snip <
>
> Astronomers just discovered that Mars and even remote Neptune are warming
> at about the same rate as god ole mother Earth.

Do you have a citation? When you say "just" when was this?
Hagar - 17 May 2007 02:23 GMT
>>> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Do you have a citation? When you say "just" when was this?

Will that do ??
http://newsbusters.org/node/12762
T Wake - 17 May 2007 12:27 GMT
>>>> In spite of ourselves, "Earth is going to get itself even hotter".
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Will that do ??
> http://newsbusters.org/node/12762

Actually no, that is a (ahem) news release. It contains nothing but
assertions. It is far from unbiased and the comments indicate the nature of
the site.

Following it's links, however, I found
"Hammel, H. B., and G. W. Lockwood, 2007. Suggestive correlations between
the brightness of Neptune, solar variability, and Earth's temperature,
Geophysical Research Letters, 34, L08203, doi:10.1029/2006GL028764."

Now, as I am sure you are interested in good science, then the abstract of
from this (Which can be found at:
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL028764.shtml) might be of more
interest than jingoistic diatribes:

Long-term photometric measurements of Neptune show variations of brightness
over half a century. Seasonal change in Neptune's atmosphere may partially
explain a general rise in the long-term light curve, but cannot explain its
detailed variations. This leads us to consider the possibility of
solar-driven changes, i.e., changes incurred by innate solar variability
perhaps coupled with changing seasonal insolation. Although correlations
between Neptune's brightness and Earth's temperature anomaly-and between
Neptune and two models of solar variability-are visually compelling, at this
time they are not statistically significant due to the limited degrees of
freedom of the various time series. Nevertheless, the striking similarity of
the temporal patterns of variation should not be ignored simply because of
low formal statistical significance. If changing brightnesses and
temperatures of two different planets are correlated, then some planetary
climate changes may be due to variations in the solar system environment.

Sadly, I don't have access to the full report and I am not going to pay
$9.99 to argue the toss if you couldn't be bothered to find the real article
in the first place.
Paul F. Dietz - 17 May 2007 14:01 GMT
> ["..."] Nevertheless, the striking similarity of
> the temporal patterns of variation should not be ignored simply because of
> low formal statistical significance.  [..."]

In other words, 'the mathematics says we can't draw this
conclusion, but we will anyway'.

Changes in the solar constant can be ruled out as a cause
of the recently observed warming, btw.

    Paul
T Wake - 17 May 2007 17:41 GMT
>> ["..."] Nevertheless, the striking similarity of the temporal patterns of
>> variation should not be ignored simply because of low formal statistical
>> significance.  [..."]
>
> In other words, 'the mathematics says we can't draw this
> conclusion, but we will anyway'.

Yes :-)

> Changes in the solar constant can be ruled out as a cause
> of the recently observed warming, btw.
kT - 17 May 2007 17:43 GMT
>>> ["..."] Nevertheless, the striking similarity of the temporal patterns of
>>> variation should not be ignored simply because of low formal statistical
>>> significance.  [..."]

>> In other words, 'the mathematics says we can't draw this
>> conclusion, but we will anyway'.
>
> Yes :-)

Hey look, it's an honest kook!

>> Changes in the solar constant can be ruled out as a cause
>> of the recently observed warming, btw.

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T Wake - 17 May 2007 18:14 GMT
>>>> ["..."] Nevertheless, the striking similarity of the temporal patterns
>>>> of variation should not be ignored simply because of low formal
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Hey look, it's an honest kook!

Thank you.
BradGuth - 17 May 2007 05:51 GMT
Isn't denial such a wonderful faith-based thing.  I think such denial
and otherwise evidence exclusion was also a little pesky problem of
Hitler's, as well as being one of the problems with our resident LLPOF
warlord(GW Bush).
-
Brad Guth
Paul F. Dietz - 17 May 2007 13:59 GMT
> Astronomers just discovered that Mars and even remote Neptune are warming
> at about the same rate as god ole mother Earth.

Why do you idiots keep repeating canards like this?  It's been thoroughly
debunked.

    Paul
Hagar - 17 May 2007 16:08 GMT
>> Astronomers just discovered that Mars and even remote Neptune are warming
>> at about the same rate as god ole mother Earth.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Paul

Because other idiots, claiming scientific evidence, are posting it all over
the news, idiot.
T Wake - 17 May 2007 17:43 GMT
>>> Astronomers just discovered that Mars and even remote Neptune are
>>> warming at about the same rate as god ole mother Earth.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Because other idiots, claiming scientific evidence, are posting it all
> over the news, idiot.

The site you linked to was hardly what could be called a "news" site and it
is interesting that most of the commenters there (and you) seem to have
picked up on one aspect of the study while nicely ignoring the rest.

Ironic really, isn't it...  You may want to look over
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/ as well. The science is
reasonably easy for most people to get a handle on.
Paul F. Dietz - 17 May 2007 23:42 GMT
> Because other idiots, claiming scientific evidence, are posting it all over
> the news, idiot.

I really hope you show more sense running your own life than you
do with this subject.  You're a very gullible and stupid person.

Paul

PS: Ok, I lied about the 'really hope' part.
BradGuth - 18 May 2007 01:21 GMT
Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)

Relocating our moon from its existing orbit, that's simply cruising a
little too close for our confort zone, out to being parked within the
orbit of Earth's L1, is an all around win-win for everything and
everyone on Earth, although at least half the moon is going to become
a little worse off (sorry about that, it can't be helped).

This is not an overnight or even a decade worthy consideration, but
more than likely a century worth of applied physics on behalf of
migrating 7.35e22 kg away from it's existing orbit.  Trust me, it's
going to be so much easier said than done.

Accomplishing this environmental salvaging task on behalf of achieving
tidal moderation, of what should become worth slightly more than half
of our existing tidal forced situation, as such is going to
extensively moderate the amount of this orbiting mascon energy that's
unavoidably converted into various forms of terrestrial friction, and
thus into creating internal and surface heat, and that's not to
mention our accomplishing the little further reduction in reflected
and secondary IR/FIR energy that's currently derived from our
physically dark moon, will obviously no longer exist once that moon is
situated at Earth's L1.

The amount of shade or solar isolation created by way of having our
moon at Earth's L1 is of course the primary goal and direct benefit,
whereas of my best swag thus far is suggesting that it'll essentially
cause a global insolation reduction of -22.5 watts/m2.  According to
many others and the expertise of their global warming research, that
-22.5 w/m2 is capable of offering us a thermal offest of global
warming compensation worth better than three times the amount
estimated as in surplus or excess of energy that's supposedly
responsible for having created our environment's recent past, existing
and continually warming situation, and that's not looking good if you
happen to be made of ice or otherwise manage to survive best because
of snow and ice.
-
Brad Guth
Rich - 18 May 2007 01:49 GMT
> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)

Errr, is not L1 unstable?

And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
would seem that the moon at that distance would provide very little
shade, if any.

I like the Fututurama approach better, and it's much more doable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgE_mkR2oac&mode=related&search=

[...]

Rich

> -
> Brad Guth
Paul F. Dietz - 18 May 2007 05:11 GMT
> And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
> at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
> would seem that the moon at that distance would provide very little
> shade, if any.

L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
probably involving light pressure.

You don't need a full shadow to reduce insolation at the Earth;
a shade that appears smaller than the sun's disk, as seen from
Earth, would still reduce insolation at Earth.  What you'd want
is the shade placed so that for every illuminated spot on Earth,
the shade was fully in front of the sun as seen from that spot.

    Paul
Pat Flannery - 18 May 2007 06:22 GMT
> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
> probably involving light pressure.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is the shade placed so that for every illuminated spot on Earth,
> the shade was fully in front of the sun as seen from that spot.

I still like the billion mylar balloons at high altitude concept; it's
very simple, they can be turned out at almost nothing per balloon, and
sunrises and sunsets are going to look very wild indeed with the whole
sky full of glittering points of light.
Could you bounce microwaves off of these things for telecommunications
or OTH radar?

Pat
BradGuth - 18 May 2007 07:43 GMT
> > L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
> > probably involving light pressure.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Pat

The new and improved L1 is actually very stable.

You folks really don't get the big picture, or even the medium
picture.  You are looking at everything as though through a straw, and
at best that's a pretty damn narrow FOV.

I say;  we run those full blown supercomputer simulations, then we
speak.

BTW;  How many dozen of those spendy supercomputers do we own these
days?
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 18 May 2007 15:16 GMT
> I say;  we run those full blown supercomputer simulations, then we
> speak.
>
> BTW;  How many dozen of those spendy supercomputers do we own these
> days?

Still too scared to download AstroGrav - the simulator which does
EVERYTHING you want?
Signature

COOSN-174-07-82116: Official Science Team mascot and alt.astronomy's favourite
poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).

Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.

Art Deco - 19 May 2007 16:52 GMT
>> I say;  we run those full blown supercomputer simulations, then we
>> speak.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Still too scared to download AstroGrav - the simulator which does
>EVERYTHING you want?

But because it doesn't say "for supercomputers" on the web page, it
therefore cannot do anything he needs.

Signature

Supreme Leader of the Brainwashed Followers of Art Deco

"Causation of gravity is missing frame field always attempting
renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
 -- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Of doing Venus in person would obviously incorporate a composite
rigid airship, along with it's internal cache of frozen pizza and
ice cold beer."
 -- Brad Guth, bigoted racist

"You really are one of the litsiest people I know, Mr. Deco."
 --Kali, quoted endlessly by David Tholen as evidence of "something"

Rich - 18 May 2007 15:47 GMT
>>> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
>>> probably involving light pressure.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> The new and improved L1 is actually very stable.

The new and improved L1?

> You folks really don't get the big picture, or even the medium
> picture.

How about the small picture? Like the screen on my old digital
camera?

> You are looking at everything as though through a straw, and
> at best that's a pretty damn narrow FOV.

Is that something like a POV?

If so, what's a narrow POV? Is that a POV where you see only one
thing? Like moving the moon to save the world perhaps?

> I say;  we run those full blown supercomputer simulations, then we
> speak.

What is it we'll be simulating?

> BTW;  How many dozen of those spendy supercomputers do we own these
> days?

We? I don't own even one. This computer is an Athlon X2 4200+, and
it suits my needs for video work.

Cheers

Rich

> -
> Brad Guth
Rich - 18 May 2007 14:56 GMT
>> And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
>> at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
> probably involving light pressure.

That's a lot of light pressure.

> You don't need a full shadow to reduce insolation at the Earth;
> a shade that appears smaller than the sun's disk, as seen from
> Earth, would still reduce insolation at Earth.  What you'd want
> is the shade placed so that for every illuminated spot on Earth,
> the shade was fully in front of the sun as seen from that spot.

I don't see how the moon at earth L1 could provide what "you'd want".

Nor am I positive that this would be a good idea, even if it were
possible. The law of unintended consequences is in play, and you
don't always get what you expect, or want.

Cheers

Rich

>     Paul
Paul F. Dietz - 18 May 2007 15:12 GMT
>> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
>> probably involving light pressure.
>
> That's a lot of light pressure.

Sure.  But a solar shade necessarily experiences a lot of light pressure.

> I don't see how the moon at earth L1 could provide what "you'd want".

The moon, no.  You'd want a much much lighter object, and more area.

    Paul
Rich - 18 May 2007 16:03 GMT
>>> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
>>> probably involving light pressure.
>>
>> That's a lot of light pressure.
>
> Sure.  But a solar shade necessarily experiences a lot of light pressure.

OK, I had thought you were referring to the moon, not solar shades. My mistake.

>> I don't see how the moon at earth L1 could provide what "you'd want".
>
> The moon, no.  You'd want a much much lighter object, and more area.

I'm not sure it makes much difference to the earth whether the shade
reflects the light or absorbs it. But I guess it'll get hot enough
even if it's reflective.

Cheers

Rich

>     Paul
Paul F. Dietz - 19 May 2007 04:43 GMT
> I'm not sure it makes much difference to the earth whether the shade
> reflects the light or absorbs it. But I guess it'll get hot enough
> even if it's reflective.

A really optimized system would just slightly scatter the light.
This can be done with much less mass than a mirror, at least
in principle.  At some point the mass of the shade becomes so
small that it becomes difficult to hold in position against
'gusts' in the solar wind (which can very greatly in speed
depending on solar activity).

    Paul
Starlord - 19 May 2007 05:03 GMT
In 3 billion years it would not matter as by that time the sun will start
going red and wipe out the first two planets and the earth will start drying
out and by 4 billion years it'll be hot and bone dry with ZERO life on it.
In the mean time you want to put up a shade and maybe distroy all plant life
on earth. Stupid.

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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu - 19 May 2007 10:09 GMT
In article <7fadnZjOp9T179PbnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@dls.net>, "Paul F. Dietz" <dietz@dls.net> writes:
>Rich wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>'gusts' in the solar wind (which can very greatly in speed
>depending on solar activity

To begin with, how you're going to hold such system against just plain
light pressure.  Note that such system will have no rigidity to speak
of?

Mati Meron                      | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu         |  chances are he is doing just the same"
Eric Gisse - 19 May 2007 10:44 GMT
On May 19, 2:09 am, mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
> In article <7fadnZjOp9T179PbnZ2dnUVZ_oPin...@dls.net>, "Paul F. Dietz" <d...@dls.net> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> light pressure.  Note that such system will have no rigidity to speak
> of?

sh.t, as long as we are in the land of the absurd why not just place
something in -close- orbit around the Sun?

> Mati Meron                      | "When you argue with a fool,
> m...@cars.uchicago.edu         |  chances are he is doing just the same"
The Ghost In The Machine - 23 May 2007 06:53 GMT
In sci.physics, Eric Gisse
<jowr.pi@gmail.com>
wrote
on 19 May 2007 02:44:36 -0700
<1179567876.680825.194920@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>:
> On May 19, 2:09 am, mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>> In article <7fadnZjOp9T179PbnZ2dnUVZ_oPin...@dls.net>, "Paul F. Dietz" <d...@dls.net> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> sh.t, as long as we are in the land of the absurd why not just place
> something in -close- orbit around the Sun?

We could just ask the Ringworld Engineers.

Of course we'd have to find such a system first.

:-)

>> Mati Meron                      | "When you argue with a fool,
>> m...@cars.uchicago.edu         |  chances are he is doing just the same"

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mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu - 19 May 2007 11:25 GMT
In article <1179567876.680825.194920@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Eric Gisse <jowr.pi@gmail.com> writes:
>On May 19, 2:09 am, mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
>> In article <7fadnZjOp9T179PbnZ2dnUVZ_oPin...@dls.net>, "Paul F. Dietz" <d...@dls.net> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>sh.t, as long as we are in the land of the absurd why not just place
>something in -close- orbit around the Sun?

Go ahead.  The question still remains.  How do you place something
that can remove a sensible amount (say, few percent) nof the Earth
bound solar radiation, using a reasonable mass and being reasonably
stable against radiation pressure.

Mati Meron                      | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu         |  chances are he is doing just the same"
mchouza7529-group@yahoo.com.ar - 19 May 2007 15:14 GMT
On 19 mayo, 06:09, mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote:
> In article <7fadnZjOp9T179PbnZ2dnUVZ_oPin...@dls.net>, "Paul F. Dietz" <d...@dls.net> writes:
> >A really optimized system would just slightly scatter the light.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> light pressure.  Note that such system will have no rigidity to speak
> of?

Saving Paul some typing:

On 9 mar, 10:56, "Paul F. Dietz" <d...@dls.net> wrote:
> Eric Swanson wrote:
> > Of course, there's more to it than just getting the material to L1 or
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> may be a more serious issue for the very low-mass shade, since it can
> vary on short timescales.

See also
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1859907
Paul F. Dietz - 22 May 2007 02:56 GMT
> To begin with, how you're going to hold such system against just plain
> light pressure.  Note that such system will have no rigidity to speak
> of?

Why is rigidity needed, or even helpful, for the problem you posed?

To answer you question: light pressure on the object will vary
in inverse square fashion with the distance from the sun, so you
can think of it as multiplying the gravitation acceleration due
to the sun by a constant < 1.  This will shift the position of
the (unstable) equilibrium point sunward.  Angel analyzes this
in his paper.

    Paul
BradGuth - 21 May 2007 11:17 GMT
> >>> L1 is unstable, so keep shades there would require active stabilization,
> >>> probably involving light pressure.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

As long as our nearby mascon of a moon is kicking mother Earth's butt
from the inside out, this 98.5% fluid Earth will manage to get hotter.

The laws of physics don't lie, but most faith-based folks will do
whatever it takes, and then some.
-
Brad Guth
BradGuth - 21 May 2007 02:28 GMT
> >> And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
> >> at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> possible. The law of unintended consequences is in play, and you
> don't always get what you expect, or want.

That's where the spendy supercomputer and of its fully interactive 3D
orbital simulator tells us exactly what to expext.

3X-L2 (moon L2X3) Tethered Tug = solar isolation of -22.5 w/m2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
A basalt tethered mass (easily made from and otherwise extracted
entirely from the moon) of accommodating 1e12 kg placed at 194,100 km
from the backside of the moon, or essentially 578,500 km from Earth,
that's moving along at 1539.556 km/s = 4.097e15 N (4.178e14 kg or
9.211e14 lbs) just to start with.

Perhaps the honest notions of our utilizing a tethered tug of merely
4.097e15 N, as such only has its off-world meaning to those of us with
actual remorse, and for otherwise having given an honest tinkers damn
worth of our compassion towards salvaging the badly damaged
environment of Earth, that's only going to get itself hotter as time
and that nearby mascon of a moon accomplishes its unavoidable
GW(global warming) thing.

Of course, this greater than monumental effort of relocating our moon
isn't going to transpire overnight, or even within the next few years,
as it'll demand a good decade of creating those substantial basalt
fiber tethers and of mostly robotics subsequently relocating 1e12 kg
of that moon out towards the 3X worth of or moon's L2 (roughly 194,100
km away from the backside).  As the moon gets with the agenda of
moving out, either additional mass is further contributed or otherwise
allowed to drift away from that CM(counter mass), thereby giving us a
fully interactive method of control over every km step of the way
towards Earth's L1.

The moon's L1 of accommodating the LSE-CM/ISS (w/tether dipole
element) will become part of the moon's parking brake, interactively
deployed upon approaching the relative gravity nullification or quiet
zone of Earth's L1.  This LSE-CM/ISS too will have been a major
robotic task, taking up most of the century in order to accomplish.

BTW  this is also going to be seriously spendy.
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 21 May 2007 02:32 GMT
> BTW  this is also going to be seriously spendy.

No the word you're looking for is "absurd".

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Art Deco - 21 May 2007 16:02 GMT
>> BTW  this is also going to be seriously spendy.
>
>No the word you're looking for is "absurd".

As long as someone else pays for the "ice cold beer and frozen pizza",
Vern doesn't care.

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renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
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 -- Brad Guth, bigoted racist

"You really are one of the litsiest people I know, Mr. Deco."
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BradGuth - 18 May 2007 07:29 GMT
> > Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>
> Errr, is not L1 unstable?

Our moon's L1 is merely interactive.  Our Moon's L1 (as is) can be
efficiently established and maintained for a given science platform.

Earth's L1 is a whole lot more stable, and thus a bit less interactive
than is our moon's L1.

The (Earth+moon) L1-->Sol should become more stable than our existing
Earth L1 with that darn salty old moon causing all sorts of those
pesky orbital gravity fluctuations.

> And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
> at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
> would seem that the moon at that distance would provide very little
> shade, if any.

It'll provide more shade than you think (roughly 3 fold as much as
necessary to offset GW), though it's not actually as much shade as
many (including myself) had previously been suggesting.  My best swag
of today is suggesting a whole Earth solar influx drop of -22.5 w/m2,
although my 2D CAD and subsequent math is based upon flat disk areas
and not of spheres.

Certainly you have the way better 3D CAD and all of the right 3D
simulation math and graphical examples that'll nail this one down to
the +/- mw/m2

> I like the Fututurama approach better, and it's much more doable.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgE_mkR2oac&mode=related&search=

Like most others that summarily suck and blow, you obviously think
this is funny, don't you.  You think the demise of Earth's environment
is just what your faith-based mindset ordered, whereas yourself plus
others of your silly kind think that's only too funny that so many
have died, of many others are soon enough going to die, or at least
wish they were dead before the next big GW related fiasco hits.
-
Brad Guth
Rich - 18 May 2007 15:29 GMT
>>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>> Errr, is not L1 unstable?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Earth's L1 is a whole lot more stable, and thus a bit less interactive
> than is our moon's L1.

More stable? Is this the same as stable? Does it not still take fuel to
keep research spacecraft at earth L1 (or orbiting it)?

> The (Earth+moon) L1-->Sol should become more stable than our existing
> Earth L1 with that darn salty old moon causing all sorts of those
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> necessary to offset GW), though it's not actually as much shade as
> many (including myself) had previously been suggesting.

If this is true then it would cause global cooling, would it not?

> My best swag
> of today is suggesting a whole Earth solar influx drop of -22.5 w/m2,
> although my 2D CAD and subsequent math is based upon flat disk areas
> and not of spheres.

So it would indeed cool the globe. By how much?

And what effect would this have on plant and animal life?

> Certainly you have the way better 3D CAD and all of the right 3D
> simulation math and graphical examples that'll nail this one down to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Like most others that summarily suck and blow, you obviously think
> this is funny, don't you.

I think Futurama is funny. Don't you?

> You think the demise of Earth's environment
> is just what your faith-based mindset ordered, whereas yourself plus
> others of your silly kind think that's only too funny that so many
> have died,

How many have died? And of what? I don't understand your point.

> of many others are soon enough going to die,

How many are going to die?

Actually I kinda thought we were all gonna die. But what do I know,
eh?

> or at least
> wish they were dead before the next big GW related fiasco hits.

"[Y]our silly kind"? Just what species are you? Have you ever used the
name Trelain?

And the "next big GW related fiasco"? What was the last one?

And I really think that this is more in the realm of a thought experiment,
as it ain't something we can currently do. We can barely lift a few tons
into LEO today.

Or do you have some method for moving the moon? Please, elucidate.

Cheers

Rich

> -
> Brad Guth
Rand Simberg - 18 May 2007 15:42 GMT
On Fri, 18 May 2007 07:29:55 -0700, in a place far, far away, Rich
<someone@someplace.not> made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

>>>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>>> Errr, is not L1 unstable?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>More stable? Is this the same as stable? Does it not still take fuel to
>keep research spacecraft at earth L1 (or orbiting it)?

Guth is nuts.  Please don't encourage him by responding to him.
BradGuth - 19 May 2007 16:31 GMT
> >>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
> >> Errr, is not L1 unstable?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> More stable? Is this the same as stable? Does it not still take fuel to
> keep research spacecraft at earth L1 (or orbiting it)?

Are you saying our moon hasn't sufficient energy to spare?

Can you explain as to how much energy per tonne and per year it takes
for keeing a good Earth L1 science platform like ACE up and running?

> > The (Earth+moon) L1-->Sol should become more stable than our existing
> > Earth L1 with that darn salty old moon causing all sorts of those
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> If this is true then it would cause global cooling, would it not?

That is true, but we humans have proven that we know how to seriously
pollute our environment with our nifty soot, CO2 and loads of toxic
elements to boot, so there's not to worry about too much global
cooling.

> > My best swag
> > of today is suggesting a whole Earth solar influx drop of -22.5 w/m2,
> > although my 2D CAD and subsequent math is based upon flat disk areas
> > and not of spheres.
>
> So it would indeed cool the globe. By how much?

I just stipulated, that by day it's worth -22.5 w/m2 (you silly folks
do know what a watt of energy is, don't you?)

> And what effect would this have on plant and animal life?

As I'd said, it's mostly good news, not that each and every known
species of life is going to appreciate getting a touch cooler (aka
back to normal).

> > Certainly you have the way better 3D CAD and all of the right 3D
> > simulation math and graphical examples that'll nail this one down to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I think Futurama is funny. Don't you?

Yes I do.  But the onging demise of our environment is not terribly
funny.

> > You think the demise of Earth's environment
> > is just what your faith-based mindset ordered, whereas yourself plus
> > others of your silly kind think that's only too funny that so many
> > have died,
>
> How many have died? And of what? I don't understand your point.

And your kind never will understand.

> > of many others are soon enough going to die,
>
> How many are going to die?

Hundreds of millions, which obviously is rather funny within your
mindset.

> Actually I kinda thought we were all gonna die. But what do I know,
> eh?

That's way too simple, taking the easy way out isn't playing fair.

> > or at least
> > wish they were dead before the next big GW related fiasco hits.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And the "next big GW related fiasco"? What was the last one?

The last ice age this planet will ever see was the big one that's
still thawing out to the very last km3 worth of ice, and for good
measure younaysay folks of denial can add a few spare degrees C on top
of that.

There's another atheist news group of denial that needs your all-
knowing naysay support.  I think it's called hell.naysay.denial.bigot,
or something like that.

> And I really think that this is more in the realm of a thought experiment,
> as it ain't something we can currently do. We can barely lift a few tons
> into LEO today.
>
> Or do you have some method for moving the moon? Please, elucidate.

Yes I do happen to have at least one good method of moving that big
old salty moon of ours.  Unfortunately, it has to do with the regular
laws of physics that your hocus-pocus conditional physics simply isn't
going to appreciate one damn bit.
-
Brad Guth
Art Deco - 19 May 2007 18:44 GMT
>> >>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>> >> Errr, is not L1 unstable?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Can you explain as to how much energy per tonne and per year it takes
>for keeing a good Earth L1 science platform like ACE up and running?

How do you convert solar radiation into reaction thrust, Vern?

Signature

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renormalization back to base memory of equalized uniform momentum."
 -- nightbat the saucerhead-in-chief

"Of doing Venus in person would obviously incorporate a composite
rigid airship, along with it's internal cache of frozen pizza and
ice cold beer."
 -- Brad Guth, bigoted racist

"You really are one of the litsiest people I know, Mr. Deco."
 --Kali, quoted endlessly by David Tholen as evidence of "something"

Rich - 20 May 2007 02:54 GMT
>>>>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>>>> Errr, is not L1 unstable?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Are you saying our moon hasn't sufficient energy to spare?

Does it? What kind of energy?

> Can you explain as to how much energy per tonne and per year it takes
> for keeing a good Earth L1 science platform like ACE up and running?

Actually, as I understand it, they don't actually sit at L1, takes more
fuel and the sun is inline with communications. They use two different
orbits around L1, which reduces the fuel requirements quite a bit
and solves the communication issues. I think SOHO is at L1 also.

>>> The (Earth+moon) L1-->Sol should become more stable than our existing
>>> Earth L1 with that darn salty old moon causing all sorts of those
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> elements to boot, so there's not to worry about too much global
> cooling.

But you do worry about global warming?

Seems to me that the effects of significant global cooling will be as
detrimental to human life on earth (and any animal life in a narrow
ecological niche like the Galapagos Islands) as any large warming,
just different.

>>> My best swag
>>> of today is suggesting a whole Earth solar influx drop of -22.5 w/m2,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I just stipulated, that by day it's worth -22.5 w/m2 (you silly folks
> do know what a watt of energy is, don't you?)

Watt are you talking about??  :^/

And more power to ya.

>> And what effect would this have on plant and animal life?
>
> As I'd said, it's mostly good news, not that each and every known
> species of life is going to appreciate getting a touch cooler (aka
> back to normal).

22.5 Watts is more than the AGW component, the often touted CO2
figure is about 2.5 W/m^2, give or take.

>>> Certainly you have the way better 3D CAD and all of the right 3D
>>> simulation math and graphical examples that'll nail this one down to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Yes I do.  But the onging demise of our environment is not terribly
> funny.

The problem is population. China's air is so dirty from accounts at
Scientific American that it alone kills 70,000/year. Nonetheless,
climate is not now and never was fixed and immutable.

>>> You think the demise of Earth's environment
>>> is just what your faith-based mindset ordered, whereas yourself plus
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And your kind never will understand.

My kind? Is it my eye color? My mouthwash? Watt?

How many have died? And of what? I still don't understand your point.

>>> of many others are soon enough going to die,
>> How many are going to die?
>
> Hundreds of millions, which obviously is rather funny within your
> mindset.

Hundreds of millions will die of watt?

10 point penalty for excessive vagueness. Repeat the down.

>> Actually I kinda thought we were all gonna die. But what do I know,
>> eh?
>
> That's way too simple, taking the easy way out isn't playing fair.

Eh? Are you immortal?

>>> or at least
>>> wish they were dead before the next big GW related fiasco hits.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> measure younaysay folks of denial can add a few spare degrees C on top
> of that.

I deny it! Watt must you think of me?

So things were warming anyway. Curious that, eh?

> There's another atheist news group of denial that needs your all-
> knowing naysay support.

I thought I was just asking you a few simple questions. And what do
I get in place of answers but simple ad hominem. And not even clever
ad hominem.

> I think it's called hell.naysay.denial.bigot, or something like that.

Do you post there often?

>> And I really think that this is more in the realm of a thought experiment,
>> as it ain't something we can currently do. We can barely lift a few tons
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> laws of physics that your hocus-pocus conditional physics simply isn't
> going to appreciate one damn bit.

Damn me.

Can you clue me in perchance?

Cheers,

Rich

> -
> Brad Guth
BradGuth - 20 May 2007 17:11 GMT
> > Yes I do happen to have at least one good method of moving that big
> > old salty moon of ours.  Unfortunately, it has to do with the regular
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Can you clue me in perchance?

For a time, I'd thought you were one of the all-knowing good guys.

Do you folks even believe in the regular laws of physics?

If not, than anything I or anyone else has to offer is not going to
fly.

Relocating our moon to Earth's L2 isn't hocus-pocus or otherwise
requiring of smoke and mirrors, although a few mirrors might play an
important part in the game plan of our establishing the moon's
tethered 2X or 3X L2 passive tug.

Of course, that's a great deal of applied force that you naysay folks
wouldn't know anything about.
-
Brad Guth
Rich - 20 May 2007 18:27 GMT
>>> Yes I do happen to have at least one good method of moving that big
>>> old salty moon of ours.  Unfortunately, it has to do with the regular
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> For a time, I'd thought you were one of the all-knowing good guys.

Me? A good guy? I don't work there. But thanx for the vote of confidence.

> Do you folks even believe in the regular laws of physics?

For the irregular laws of physics use ex-lax, no sh.t.

> If not, than anything I or anyone else has to offer is not going to
> fly.

I don't think that whether they fly or not is dependent on myself in
any way.

> Relocating our moon to Earth's L2 isn't hocus-pocus or otherwise
> requiring of smoke and mirrors, although a few mirrors might play an
> important part in the game plan of our establishing the moon's
> tethered 2X or 3X L2 passive tug.

A tethered passive tug? Eir ya pulling my leg laddie?

> Of course, that's a great deal of applied force that you naysay folks
> wouldn't know anything about.

Nay I say. I still don't know anything about it. Maybe it's for the best.

Cheers,

Rich

> -
> Brad Guth
BradGuth - 20 May 2007 20:16 GMT
> >>> Yes I do happen to have at least one good method of moving that big
> >>> old salty moon of ours.  Unfortunately, it has to do with the regular
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Are all such Usenet rusemasters (aka naysayers) such wussyass
dumbfounded fools, and otherwise infomercial spewing sorts of
intellectual bigots like yourself?

If you silly brown-nosed clowns (aka MI/NSA spooks and moles) keep
pretending that you don't understand the basic physics of a tug, then
what's the point?

Are you actually saying that you folks have no honest idea what a 2X
worth of our moon's L2 is worth?

Do you even care enough as to pretend that to know of where the moon's
L2 is?

Where's are those supercomputer derived 3D simulations, that which
proves out far more than we're supposed to know about?

Is your brown-nosed borg collective in charge of your private parts?
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 20 May 2007 20:34 GMT
> Are all such Usenet rusemasters (aka naysayers) such wussyass
> dumbfounded fools, and otherwise infomercial spewing sorts of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Where's are those supercomputer derived 3D simulations, that which
> proves out far more than we're supposed to know about?

Celestia
Astrograv

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Starlord - 21 May 2007 17:12 GMT
Watch the old reruns of SPACE 1999 and see how the moon could be moved. :}

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>>>> Yes I do happen to have at least one good method of moving that big
>>>> old salty moon of ours.  Unfortunately, it has to do with the regular
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> -
>> Brad Guth
BradGuth - 21 May 2007 19:18 GMT
On May 21, 9:12 am, "Starlord" <starl...@sidewalkastronomy.info>
wrote:
> Watch the old reruns of SPACE 1999 and see how the moon could be moved. :}
>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's but one unfortunate method that's worth another look-see.  Once
again, the fully interactive 3D simulator should prove quite
necessary.

Too bad we Americans don't seem to own a sufficient supercomputer.
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 21 May 2007 19:23 GMT
> That's but one unfortunate method that's worth another look-see.  Once
> again, the fully interactive 3D simulator should prove quite
> necessary.
>
> Too bad we Americans don't seem to own a sufficient supercomputer.

Brad you're a liar. I've already pointed you to 3d simulation software you can
run and download yourself. You're just too cowardly to download them

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John "C" - 21 May 2007 19:25 GMT
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddleduck@gmail.com> wrote in message

> You're just too cowardly to download them

Project much, "Coward The Duck"?

HJ
The Ghost In The Machine - 20 May 2007 20:40 GMT
In sci.physics, Rich
<someone@someplace.not>
wrote
on Thu, 17 May 2007 17:49:17 -0700
<FbGdnQTe_a6RZdHbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@comcast.com>:
>> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> [...]

Heh...but where do we get the ice from? :-)  (Or is that answered later
on?)

> Rich
>
>> -
>> Brad Guth

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BradGuth - 20 May 2007 21:41 GMT
> In sci.physics, Rich
> <some...@someplace.not>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> > Errr, is not L1 unstable?

Earth's L1 is NOT unstable, and as such it's not going away any time
soon.

> > And L1 is about 4x the current lunar distance. Given that an eclipse
> > at the current distance sweeps a narrow path across the earth it
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Heh...but where do we get the ice from? :-)  (Or is that answered later
> on?)

Not to worry, as we could get loads of red ice from little old Sedna,
though most likely it'll be salty ice, plus loaded with lots of nifty
cosmic DNA at that.
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 20 May 2007 21:48 GMT
> > >> Moon ---> Earth L1 (easier said and done, but we should do it anyway)
> >
> > > Errr, is not L1 unstable?
>
> Earth's L1 is NOT unstable, and as such it's not going away any time
> soon.

http://www.physics.montana.edu/faculty/cornish/lagrange.html

To quote

"Of the five Lagrange points, three are unstable and two are stable. The
*unstable* *Lagrange* *points* - labelled *L1*, *L2* and *L3* - lie along the
line connecting the two large masses. The stable Lagrange points - labelled L4
and L5 - form the apex of two equilateral triangles that have the large masses
at their vertices. "

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BradGuth - 20 May 2007 22:06 GMT
> In article <1179693665.737848.236...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and L5 - form the apex of two equilateral triangles that have the large masses
> at their vertices. "

Then why are all the other Earth L1 science platforms still doing
perfectly fine and dandy?

You folks never did bother to specify as how much station-keeping
energy per tonne it takes per year, for sustaining that halo orbit of
Earth's L1.

BTW;  the moon and of its easily established tethered elements of
various interactive CM(counter mass) offers teraWatts of such energy,
or of equal force to spare.  How would you silly naysay folks care to
utilize it?
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 20 May 2007 22:10 GMT
> Then why are all the other Earth L1 science platforms still doing
> perfectly fine and dandy?

Unstable = needs to be self-balancing

> You folks never did bother to specify as how much station-keeping
> energy per tonne it takes per year, for sustaining that halo orbit of
> Earth's L1.

Then look it up.

> BTW;  the moon and of its easily established tethered elements of
> various interactive CM(counter mass) offers teraWatts of such energy,
> or of equal force to spare.  How would you silly naysay folks care to
> utilize it?

Shut up Brad.

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BradGuth - 21 May 2007 00:01 GMT
> In article <1179695178.435650.299...@y18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > Then why are all the other Earth L1 science platforms still doing
> > perfectly fine and dandy?
>
> Unstable = needs to be self-balancing

Sadly NO, it doesn't require a "self-balancing" act.  However, Earth's
L1 should become more "self-balancing' once having 7.35e22 kg worth of
mass parked within that zone.

> > You folks never did bother to specify as how much station-keeping
> > energy per tonne it takes per year, for sustaining that halo orbit of
> > Earth's L1.
>
> Then look it up.

Having another bad jewboy damage-control day of evidence exclusion, or
of insufficient topic/author banishment, are we?  So much so that you
silly brown-nosed clowns can't even impress us village idiots with all
of your supposed expertise.

> > BTW;  the moon and of its easily established tethered element(s) of
> > various interactive CM(counter mass) offers teraWatts of such energy,
> > or of equal force to spare.  How would you silly naysay folks care to
> > utilize it?
>
> Shut up Brad.

3X (moon L2) Tethered Tug
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
A basalt tethered mass (easily extracted entirely from the moon) of
1e12 kg placed at 578,500 km, that's moving along at 1539.556 km/s =
4.097e15 N (4.178e14 kg or 9.211e14 lbs)

Phineas T Puddleduck, since I'm not a private part sucking rusemaster
of a certified rocket scientist, or that of such a hocus-pocus status
quo brown-nosed clown like yourselves, much less of any all-knowing
Jewish naysay infomercial spewing bigot, therefore 4.097e15 N worth of
continuous force doesn't actually mean anything to such a warm and
fuzzy truth bashing and evidence excluding fuckologest like yourself.

Perhaps the honest notions of utilizing a tethered tug of merely
4.097e15 N, as such only has its off-world meaning to those of us with
actual remorse, and for otherwise having given an honest tinkers damn
worth of our compassion towards salvaging the badly damaged
environment of Earth, that's only going to get itself hotter as time
and that nearby mascon of a moon accomplishes its GW thing.
-
Brad Guth
Phineas T Puddleduck - 21 May 2007 00:05 GMT
> > In article <1179695178.435650.299...@y18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> L1 should become more "self-balancing' once having 7.35e22 kg worth of
> mass parked within that zone.

Read up what unstable means, loon.

> > > You folks never did bother to specify as how much station-keeping
> > > energy per tonne it takes per year, for sustaining that halo orbit of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> silly brown-nosed clowns can't even impress us village idiots with all
> of your supposed expertise.

No - laughing at you pretending to be a scientist when you cannot even do
simple calculations....

> > > BTW;  the moon and of its easily established tethered element(s) of
> > > various interactive CM(counter mass) offers teraWatts of such energy,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> continuous force doesn't actually mean anything to such a warm and
> fuzzy truth bashing and evidence excluding fuckologest like yourself.

It tells me you're mad. And the Sirians want the lawnmower back....

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poster (from a survey taken of the saucerhead high command).

Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
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BradGuth - 20 May 2007 22:12 GMT
BTW  3X of our moon's L2 = 194,100 km

Do the math.
-
Brad Guth
Androcles - 20 May 2007 21:52 GMT
: In sci.physics, Rich
: <someone@someplace.not>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
: Heh...but where do we get the ice from? :-)  (Or is that answered later
: on?)

The fridge. Don't you know anything?
THE FRIDGE! ONCE AND FOR ALL!

L1 is not stable.
http://faculty.ifmo.ru/butikov/Projects/Collection1.html
Rich - 21 May 2007 01:31 GMT
> In sci.physics, Rich
> <someone@someplace.not>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Heh...but where do we get the ice from? :-)  (Or is that answered later
> on?)

I vaguely remember that they sent the planet express ship to Pluto or
someplace and hacked off a big chunk of ice. Of course, in this episode
all the ice was gone. They solved the problem by having all the alcohol
fueled robots fart in one direction (and igniting it, making a rocket
engine) which pushed the earth father from the sun (ob Dave Berry: I'm
not making this up).

Say, would this work with the moon?

Wait, we need bender for this.

Cheers,

Rich

>> Rich
>>
>>> -
>>> Brad Guth
BradGuth - 19 May 2007 16:45 GMT
If all the "Ice Sheets Melt", no one will actually care, the rich will
get richer and Earth will become less populated.  That's an atheist
faith-based sort of holy grail win-win for their old gipper.

Since Venus, Sirius, our moon's L1, the moving of our moon to Earth's
L1, the regular laws of physics and of the best available science is
still so taboo/nondisclosure and/or topic off-limits, whereas I
thought I'd share a little something other that's warm and fuzzy from
the honest beer keg wisdom of "G=EMC^2 Glazier".

What if NASA and Eclipse / What if Milky Way Core Eclipse
On May 15, 3:49 pm, herbertglaz...@webtv.net (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
> That's the biggest eclipse,and we have to look along its plane than we
> are blocked by its massive very bright hub(core)   We can't see that
> there is a star on the other side that has a blue marble planet. They
> can't see us, nor will there be a time we can send radio waves across
> this Black