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Plausible inerts composition

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chornedsnorkack@hushmail.com - 30 Sep 2006 10:23 GMT
The gases like carbon dioxide, oxygen and methane are chemically active
and vary with biology and geology of the planet.

Does anyone know the ratio of molecular nitrogen to argon and neon on
Earth, Venus, Mars, Titan, Triton and Pluto?

I understand that no extrasolar terrestrial planet atmosphere has ever
been discovered. What could be plausible inerts compositions on an
alien planet? Could one have large quantities of argon compared to
nitrogen? Or what about neon?
Mike Williams - 30 Sep 2006 12:09 GMT
Wasn't it  who wrote:

>I understand that no extrasolar terrestrial planet atmosphere has ever
>been discovered.

The first extrasolar planet atmosphere detection was in 2001.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_atmosphere_01
1127-1.html

http://tinyurl.com/5bfog

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Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

Denni - 30 Sep 2006 12:51 GMT
> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_atmosphere_01
> 1127-1.html

That link didn't work. Try:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/extrasolar_atmosphere_01

There are formidable challenges ahead when it comes to determining the
composition of atmospheres around extrasolar planets.
Brian Davis - 30 Sep 2006 12:51 GMT
> What could be plausible inerts compositions on an
> alien planet? Could one have large quantities of argon
> compared to nitrogen? Or what about neon?

Well, to zeroth-order you could start with the cosmic abundances of
these things as a guide. For every 100 atoms of silicon (the way these
things are usually quoted), you have...
340 atoms of neon
310 atoms of nitrogen
10.1 atoms of argon
and 270,000 atoms of helium
I toss in that last to show just how *bad* an approximation this can
be. First, some of these gases willescape (so it will depend on the
size of the planet,and the temperatre). Second, and more difficult to
estimate, is how they get incorporated into the planet in the first
place. If it's not a gas giant (accreting gas directly from the
nebula), then you are only going to get an "atmosphere" from outgassing
the the accreted materials... and what gets accreted depends on both
the temperature at which you're doing this at, as well as the chemistry
(which can be tough to get a handle on). Neon & argon are going to be
hard to build up, because they don't form solids (elementally or as
compounds) at reasonable temperatures. So as to likely mixes, no, I
can't think of any.

As to possible, well, if you figure out a way to dump a
solar-composition atmosphere on a planet, and allow the H/He to escape,
it would seem you could certainly have an atmosphere that was around
half neon.

As an aside, I once heard somebody propose SF6 as a "safe" option (for
a very very VERY dense atmosphere)... if you can manage to get an
atmosphere dominated by almost nothing other than sulfur and florine
(good luck with that, abundance of 0.08 atoms for every 100 of
silicon).

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Brian Davis

chornedsnorkack@hushmail.com - 30 Sep 2006 13:27 GMT
Brian Davis kirjutas:

> > What could be plausible inerts compositions on an
> > alien planet? Could one have large quantities of argon
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> it would seem you could certainly have an atmosphere that was around
> half neon.

What is the atmospheric composition of Moon now? And what about
Mercury?

> As an aside, I once heard somebody propose SF6 as a "safe" option (for
> a very very VERY dense atmosphere)... if you can manage to get an
> atmosphere dominated by almost nothing other than sulfur and florine
> (good luck with that, abundance of 0.08 atoms for every 100 of
> silicon).

The problem with fluorides is that they are chemically unfavourable in
long term in presence of water, rocks and UV.

CF4 is biologically inert, but if you have it in upper atmosphere, you
are going to have CF4 + hnu <> CF3 + F . And if you have simultaneously
other things, like CO2 subject to CO2 + hnu <> CO + O and/or H2O + hnu
<> OH + H, you will get the net result of CF4 + 2H2O > CO2 + 4HF.
Reaction that goes preferrably forward - and worse, HF does not like
staying around in atmosphere as much as H2O does, because on ground:
CaCO3 + 2HF > CaF2 + H2O + CO2.

The net result being CF4 + 2CaCO3 > 2CaF2 + 3 CO2. What fluorine you
have tends to wind up in stable, insoluble metal fluorides. SF6 would
break down in the same general manner.

Whereas there is no way to break down neon or argon. The only way to
get rid of them is escape...
Brian Davis - 30 Sep 2006 20:59 GMT
> The problem with fluorides is that they are chemically unfavourable in
> long term in presence of water, rocks and UV.

Oh, agreed. there are a *bunch* of problems with fluorides, not the
least of which is the reactivity... if you can even get enough of them
in one place to begin with. I wonder if you could cold-trap SF6?

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Brian Davis

Earl - 30 Sep 2006 21:16 GMT
>> The problem with fluorides is that they are chemically
>> unfavourable in long term in presence of water, rocks and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> get enough of them in one place to begin with. I wonder if
> you could cold-trap SF6?

Do not be so sure of the safety of SF6

IIRC (from about 30 years ago) the sulfur florides are mostly
safe. But let a lightning bolt or electric discharge happen and
you get interesting chemistry.

You start to form various polymers and the sulfur/fluorine
analog of the alkanes.

A couple of which (I think S2F10 is one) have a toxicity
approaching cyanide.

(Just like teflon can yield highly poisonous decomposition
products)
 
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