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Re: Pres Bush  Left His Unit to Avoid a Drug Test!   A Repub 'Whitewater'

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Steve McLeod - 22 Sep 2004 04:40 GMT
On 2004-09-21 bthorn64@cox.net (Brian) said:

> > Burkett, yes, but CBS and the DNC? CBS is guilty of believing a
> > forgery and taking the word of a nutcase, but I see no conspiracy.
> > Looks more like the work of a lone nut! (Sorry, I couldn't refuse).
>
> Agreed.
>
> Although I find the fact that CBS served as an intermediary between
> Mr. Burkett and the Kerry Campaign (via Mr. Lockhart) a little
> disturbing, my main concern is that CBS was so partisan that they
> fell for Mr. Burkett's (a known anti-Bush activist of dubious
> credibility) fraud so easily, publicly insisted he was an
> "unimpeachable source" when he is anythung but, and then for 10
> days remained defiant in the face of the growing skepticism of even
> their own advisors.
>
> If anything, the ability of the Left to credibly complain about the
> partisan reporting of FOX News is dead.

Well, DUHHH!  Welcome to the world, son.  Where you been for
the past 40-plus years?

> And I think that is a bad thing for this country, even though the
> party I support came out ahead this time. I'm no fan of FOX News.
> I'd prefer impartial news reporting, but I believe now that will
> never, ever, happen.

You think you've EVER gotten 'impartial' news from the networks?

The mainstream 'alphabet' TV networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) have been
on the left since at least the early 1960s.

Actually, it goes back much farther than that: to Edward R. Murrow
and his 'reports' from Europe during World War II, in which he
'spun' perceptions of the war with tear-jerking tales of mutilated
mamas and dead babies (a technique that, with a few refinements, is
still used today).

And, of course, leftist PBS and CNN 'news' has always been a joke
right from Day One.

If you want 'impartial' 'news,' you'll have to look elsewhere.
You're never gonna get it from the mainstream U.S. outlets.
And European 'news' is even worse.

- Steve
Ool - 22 Sep 2004 13:14 GMT
> The mainstream 'alphabet' TV networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) have been
> on the left since at least the early 1960s.

Yeah.  Remember how they clobbered poor Reagan for the Arms-for-Hos-
tage scandal from day one?  And their extensive coverage of the Iran-
Contra-affair--oh my!  Or the arms deals with Saddam in the Eight-
ies--they wouldn't give us a break in our living rooms reporting
about it for hours and hours and hours...

And then one day a Democrat president gets a bl.wj.b in the Oval Of-
fice and they hardly even mention that.  It was buried somewhere in
the back pages of the newspapers.  Hardly anyone even knows what I'm
talking about today!

Left, left, left!  They're almost communists, so left are they!  Left
*behind* is what they will be!

> Actually, it goes back much farther than that: to Edward R. Murrow
> and his 'reports' from Europe during World War II, in which he
> 'spun' perceptions of the war with tear-jerking tales of mutilated
> mamas and dead babies (a technique that, with a few refinements, is
> still used today).

> And, of course, leftist PBS and CNN 'news' has always been a joke
> right from Day One.

Yeah, remember how they tried to ridicule the Iraq War, claiming Iraq
had nothing to do with 9/11, and how they openly questioned the idea
of Saddam/al-Qaeda links and of WMDs or whether plans for securing and
rebuilding the place were sound?

But remember how they broke the Abu Ghraib story right away, when it
was nothing but a rumor that there might be pictures somewhere?  How
they kept warming up the Enron scandal again and again and again?  And
how they wouldn't take their eyes off the ailing economy and environ-
ment?

From day one they were spitting, just *spitting* down Bush Jr.'s neck
and at his war plans!  Never gave him a break!  Damn liberal media!
Traitors everywhere!

> If you want 'impartial' 'news,' you'll have to look elsewhere.
> You're never gonna get it from the mainstream U.S. outlets.
> And European 'news' is even worse.

I agree with you so much, but could you be a little more positive?  I
mean, don't just tell us who we should *not* listen to--tell us who
we should go to for the news instead!  Rush?  Stern?  Aljazeera?  Hal-
iburton shareholder reports?  Bottom of coffee cups?  Who??

Where should we get our information from?

Signature

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('__`>       screams for help and focus on the bigger picture.” <'__`)
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Art - 22 Sep 2004 16:02 GMT
> > The mainstream 'alphabet' TV networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) have been
> > on the left since at least the early 1960s.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ies--they wouldn't give us a break in our living rooms reporting
> about it for hours and hours and hours...

****

Water Cronkite in an interview with Grand Times in 1996:

Q: Journalism is presented as being objective, but some feel it's just
veiled in a cloak of impartiality, and really has a hidden agenda. Do
you think we're better off receiving news that's openly subjective so we
can at least evaluate its credibility?

CRONKITE: No! No, I don't believe that at all. We certainly have
subjective columns and editorials. And what we have lost in most
newspapers today, and in broadcasting and television, is the editor's
column. The editor and publisher, in the old days, had a column which
expressed his or her opinion of affairs. But now we've got the OpEd
pages, which are serving the same function and in many ways better,
because they express a variety of opinions. That's all for the good.

For the news columns themselves, they certainly should be objective and
not subjective. Ten or 15 years ago there was much talk of the new
journalism. The philosophy was that since nobody could be 100 percent
objective, no one should even try to be objective. And we should all be
subjective and tell how stories appear to us, how they affect us
personally. That's a bunch of balderdash, and it faded out pretty
quickly because it was obviously ridiculous. We must be given the facts
so we can make our own judgments, and these facts should not be colored
by people's personal opinions.

http://www.grandtimes.com/cronkite.html

****

Water Cronkite, from CBS News broadcast, February 27, 1968:

"Tonight, back in more familiar surroundings in New York, we'd like to
sum up our findings in Vietnam, an analysis that must be speculative,
personal, subjective.  Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive
against the cities?  I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a
knockout, but neither did we. The referees of history may make it a
draw. Another standoff may be coming in the big battles expected south
of the Demilitarized Zone. Khesanh could well fall, with a terrible loss
in American lives, prestige and morale, and this is a tragedy of our
stubbornness there; but the bastion no longer is a key to the rest of
the northern regions, and it is doubtful that the American forces can be
defeated across the breadth of the DMZ with any substantial loss of
ground. Another standoff. On the political front, past performance gives
no confidence that the Vietnamese government can cope with its problems,
now compounded by the attack on the cities. It may not fall, it may hold
on, but it probably won't show the dynamic qualities demanded of this
young nation. Another standoff.

"We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American
leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the
silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that
Hanoi's winter-spring offensive has been forced by the Communist
realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and
that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve
their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their
position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have
had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not
the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever
that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This
summer's almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take
negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to
escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the
North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one
hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops
to the battle.  And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the
brink of cosmic disaster.

"To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face
of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To
suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable
pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only
realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that
military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we
must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big
gasp before negotiations.  But it is increasingly clear to this reporter
that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as
victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to
defend democracy, and did the best they could.

"This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."

Good Night, indeed, Walter. For about 12,000 American boys who would
still have to die in a war they'd already won.

"Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities?
I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did
we. The referees of history may make it a draw."

The referees of history DO NOT make it a draw. At all. Except, perhaps,
in the fact that Walter's opinion and The New York Times' and The
Washington Post's concurrent editorials MADE IT A DRAW. Subtract their
'opinions' from the equation, and General Giap tells us /now/ that North
Vietnam would have been forced to sue for peace. His army was shattered
and the Viet Cong insurgents were nearly non-existent. They'd shot their
wad and lost.

Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions and
'objective' journalism. Two years later, Vice President Sipro Agnew
announced an executive order that forced TV 'journalists' to indicate
when they were giving commentary rather than 'objective' news reports.
To keep their FCC licenses, TV News producers had to make the word
"commentary" appear somewhere on the screen.

Note to future politicians: Don't EVER tell 'journalists' what they can
or cannot do. In a matter of months they had dug up the Maryland dirt on
Agnew and forced him into early retirement. In two years they had
Nixon's political hide nailed to tree, which they've spit on ever since.

****

All this talk-talk about "The Liberal Press" is no more meaningful or
realistic as was Goebbels' talk-talk about "The Jewish Press."

Journalists don't need *COMMENTARY* rolling across the bottom of the
screen. The answer is much more simple than that, but involves a little
brain sweat--too much to ask of a silver spoon fed public:

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php

---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Eric Chomko - 22 Sep 2004 21:13 GMT
: > > The mainstream 'alphabet' TV networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) have been
: > > on the left since at least the early 1960s.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: > ies--they wouldn't give us a break in our living rooms reporting
: > about it for hours and hours and hours...

: ****

: Water Cronkite in an interview with Grand Times in 1996:

: Q: Journalism is presented as being objective, but some feel it's just
: veiled in a cloak of impartiality, and really has a hidden agenda. Do
: you think we're better off receiving news that's openly subjective so we
: can at least evaluate its credibility?

: CRONKITE: No! No, I don't believe that at all. We certainly have
: subjective columns and editorials. And what we have lost in most
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: pages, which are serving the same function and in many ways better,
: because they express a variety of opinions. That's all for the good.

: For the news columns themselves, they certainly should be objective and
: not subjective. Ten or 15 years ago there was much talk of the new
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: so we can make our own judgments, and these facts should not be colored
: by people's personal opinions.

: http://www.grandtimes.com/cronkite.html

: ****

: Water Cronkite, from CBS News broadcast, February 27, 1968:

: "Tonight, back in more familiar surroundings in New York, we'd like to
: sum up our findings in Vietnam, an analysis that must be speculative,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: on, but it probably won't show the dynamic qualities demanded of this
: young nation. Another standoff.

: "We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American
: leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
: to the battle.  And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the
: brink of cosmic disaster.

: "To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face
: of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to
: defend democracy, and did the best they could.

: "This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."

: Good Night, indeed, Walter. For about 12,000 American boys who would
: still have to die in a war they'd already won.

Are you talking about the Tet of January 1968 where we were attacked at
the US embassy in Saigon and we held on and didn't lose the embassy? Gee,
did it ever occur to you that saving your house in your city is not the
same as winning the war?

Are you blaming Cronkite for those 12,000 deaths or LBJ and Nixon?

: "Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities?
: I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did
: we. The referees of history may make it a draw."

: The referees of history DO NOT make it a draw. At all. Except, perhaps,
: in the fact that Walter's opinion and The New York Times' and The
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: and the Viet Cong insurgents were nearly non-existent. They'd shot their
: wad and lost.

Explain. My understanding is that Saigon didn't fall but that South
Vietnam had been overrun. Explain how THAT is the same as us getting into
North Vietnam and knocking on Hanoi's door rather than the other way
around. NV in SV at Saigon = Tet. How is that a victory other than
successfully defending the US embassy which we did.

: Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions and
: 'objective' journalism. Two years later, Vice President Sipro Agnew
: announced an executive order that forced TV 'journalists' to indicate
: when they were giving commentary rather than 'objective' news reports.
: To keep their FCC licenses, TV News producers had to make the word
: "commentary" appear somewhere on the screen.

How did Spiro find time to do that while accepting all those kickbacks for
being bought as the vice president? He resigned in disgrace well before
Nixon remember? Yeah, the Republicans weren't liberal-bashing,
media-bashing and were quite partisan after THAT adminstration ran its
course. The GOP is due for another "heeling" exercise regarding
corruption.

: Note to future politicians: Don't EVER tell 'journalists' what they can
: or cannot do. In a matter of months they had dug up the Maryland dirt on
: Agnew and forced him into early retirement. In two years they had
: Nixon's political hide nailed to tree, which they've spit on ever since.

Dug up dirt on him or found out about him? You imply that the media
entrapped an innocent man.

I see you're beneath the idea of statesmenship and resort to gross
bipartisanism.

: ****

: All this talk-talk about "The Liberal Press" is no more meaningful or
: realistic as was Goebbels' talk-talk about "The Jewish Press."

: Journalists don't need *COMMENTARY* rolling across the bottom of the
: screen. The answer is much more simple than that, but involves a little
: brain sweat--too much to ask of a silver spoon fed public:

: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php

: ---
: Art

: "No; I have not been charged with that.
: In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
:       ---Lee Oswald
:           (1963)

Interesting that you choose to quote Oswald. Rather believes he was guilty
you know.

Eric
Art - 22 Sep 2004 22:07 GMT
[snip because Stuart can't get access to his DSL]

> : "This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> did it ever occur to you that saving your house in your city is not the
> same as winning the war?

Gee, are you talking about some Cronkite Fantasy or just your own
misconceptions of the Tet Offensive?

> Are you blaming Cronkite for those 12,000 deaths or LBJ and Nixon?

I blame the North Vietnamese for their deaths. I blame the fact that the
war would drag on for years on Cronkite, his ilk, and an American public
too obsessed with three-car garages and two chickens in the pot to care.
sh.t and Shinola's all the same to them--unless you write "commentary"
above the talking head's head.

Heh. And NOW we have Fox News. We report--you decide.

That way The Peepul never have to learn what a logical fallacy is.

> : "Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities?
> : I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> around. NV in SV at Saigon = Tet. How is that a victory other than
> successfully defending the US embassy which we did.

What the fuk does Hanoi's door have to do with anything? Vo Nguyen
Giap had committed his whole army in an effort to take possession of ALL
the provinces in South Vietnam. They were so sure they could succeed
that they also, unwisely, committed all of their terrorist clients
(insurgents) in the south, The Viet Cong. The offensive was an utter
failure and was over in a matter of weeks. The only notable hold out was
in Hue, not Saigon, and even that was won back in rapid order.

It cost alot of American and ARVN lives. But it cost the North more.
Much, much more in fact; and they could hardly afford them from a
military standpoint.

Giap's army was completely shattered without attaining even one of its
objectives. The Viet Cong were reduced to 10% effectiveness for most of
the rest of the war. Giap, himself, wrote that the North was preparing
to sue for peace. Finally.

That is, until they found out how it was playing in the American press.

Sun T'su calls this: Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. I call
it slinging bullshit to the hayseeds. Either way, it worked. Mao came to
the rescue and sent 320,000 soldiers to Hanoi to masquerade as NVA until
they could mount another offensive across the DMZ which ALSO ended in
complete failure. As did the next. And the next.

But Walter had encouraged them to not give up. THEY report this. We
decided we'd lost. Go figure.

> : Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions and
> : 'objective' journalism. Two years later, Vice President Sipro Agnew
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Dug up dirt on him or found out about him? You imply that the media
> entrapped an innocent man.

No I didn't. I implied that the press went after him because he pissed
them off. Which they DID.

Nothing new in that. We went through 3 Speakers of the House in about as
many weeks during the Clinton Impeachment fiasco. It's everyday stuff.

> I see you're beneath the idea of statesmenship and resort to gross
> bipartisanism.

Better than bipartisan polar disorder. That's where they give each other
icy stares as they sit on the 9/11 Commission together.

> : ****
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Interesting that you choose to quote Oswald. Rather believes he was guilty
> you know.

Who the fuk cares what Dan Rather thinks? He doesn't even know what the
frequency is, Kenneth.

/I/ think Oswald /admits/ he's guilty with that quote. That's the point.

---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Eric Chomko - 23 Sep 2004 02:26 GMT
: [snip because Stuart can't get access to his DSL]
: > =

: > : "This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."
: > =

: > : Good Night, indeed, Walter. For about 12,000 American boys who would
: > : still have to die in a war they'd already won.
: > =

: > Are you talking about the Tet of January 1968 where we were attacked at=

: > the US embassy in Saigon and we held on and didn't lose the embassy? Ge=
: e,
: > did it ever occur to you that saving your house in your city is not the=

: > same as winning the war?

: Gee, are you talking about some Cronkite Fantasy or just your own
: misconceptions of the Tet Offensive?

You tell me what happened.

: > =

: > Are you blaming Cronkite for those 12,000 deaths or LBJ and Nixon?

: I blame the North Vietnamese for their deaths. I blame the fact that the
: war would drag on for years on Cronkite, his ilk, and an American public
: too obsessed with three-car garages and two chickens in the pot to care.
: sh.t and Shinola's all the same to them--unless you write "commentary"
: above the talking head's head.

: Heh. And NOW we have Fox News. We report--you decide.

Ah boy, a REAL network...

: That way The Peepul never have to learn what a logical fallacy is.
: > =

: > : "Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities?
: > : I'm not sure. The Vietcong did not win by a knockout, but neither did=

: > : we. The referees of history may make it a draw."
: > =

: > : The referees of history DO NOT make it a draw. At all. Except, perhap=
: s,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
: > : wad and lost.
: > =

: > Explain. My understanding is that Saigon didn't fall but that South
: > Vietnam had been overrun. Explain how THAT is the same as us getting in=
: to
: > North Vietnam and knocking on Hanoi's door rather than the other way
: > around. NV in SV at Saigon =3D Tet. How is that a victory other than
: > successfully defending the US embassy which we did.

: What the fuk does Hanoi's door have to do with anything? Vo Nguyen
: Giap=A0had committed his whole army in an effort to take possession of AL=
: L

Tet was fought in the south not the north. It's simple.

: the provinces in South Vietnam. They were so sure they could succeed
: that they also, unwisely, committed all of their terrorist clients
: (insurgents) in the south, The Viet Cong. The offensive was an utter
: failure and was over in a matter of weeks. The only notable hold out was
: in Hue, not Saigon, and even that was won back in rapid order.

A failure to the point that we could rally and then attack the north above
the DMZ and seize Hanoi? Explain why that wasn't the next step.

: It cost alot of American and ARVN lives. But it cost the North more.
: Much, much more in fact; and they could hardly afford them from a
: military standpoint.

Why didn't we launch a counter-offensive if you felt that the NV were
weakened?

: Giap's army was completely shattered without attaining even one of its
: objectives. The Viet Cong were reduced to 10% effectiveness for most of
: the rest of the war. Giap, himself, wrote that the North was preparing
: to sue for peace. Finally.

No, an attack on the US emabassy in the south despite heavy casualties WAS
effective. Your 35+ year revison doesn't indicate a US victory.

: That is, until they found out how it was playing in the American press.

Yeah, blame the press for the Tet "loss". Sounds like the press could ONLY
do the same in Iraq.

: Sun T'su calls this: Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. I call
: it slinging bullshit to the hayseeds. Either way, it worked. Mao came to
: the rescue and sent 320,000 soldiers to Hanoi to masquerade as NVA until
: they could mount another offensive across the DMZ which ALSO ended in
: complete failure. As did the next. And the next.

Cripes man, I missed the part where we wore then down and won.

: But Walter had encouraged them to not give up. THEY report this. We
: decided we'd lost. Go figure.

Man, to claim that we fought a war against a foe that beat the French
and was lost by us due to media misinterpretation is ludicrous and a gross
revisonist point of view. "We had the damn Vietnamese, but the US liberal
media cost us the victory". Are you nuts?!

: > : Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions a=
: nd
: > : 'objective' journalism. Two years later, Vice President Sipro Agnew
: > : announced an executive order that forced TV 'journalists' to indicate=

: > : when they were giving commentary rather than 'objective' news reports=
: =2E
: > : To keep their FCC licenses, TV News producers had to make the word
: > : "commentary" appear somewhere on the screen.
: > =

: > How did Spiro find time to do that while accepting all those kickbacks =
: for
: > being bought as the vice president? He resigned in disgrace well before=

: > Nixon remember? Yeah, the Republicans weren't liberal-bashing,
: > media-bashing and were quite partisan after THAT adminstration ran its
: > course. The GOP is due for another "heeling" exercise regarding
: > corruption.
: > =

: > : Note to future politicians: Don't EVER tell 'journalists' what they c=
: an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: ce.
: > =

: > Dug up dirt on him or found out about him? You imply that the media
: > entrapped an innocent man.

: No I didn't. I implied that the press went after him because he pissed
: them off. Which they DID.

And they found plenty of which was already there. No need to fabricate a
thing. Agnew was corrupt as they day is long...

: Nothing new in that. We went through 3 Speakers of the House in about as
: many weeks during the Clinton Impeachment fiasco. It's everyday stuff.
: > =

Yes, but those speakers were as guilty as Clinton regarding adultry.

: > I see you're beneath the idea of statesmenship and resort to gross
: > bipartisanism.

: Better than bipartisan polar disorder. That's where they give each other
: icy stares as they sit on the 9/11 Commission together.

Of which Bush wanted no part of but which we the people deserved.

: > =

: > : ****
: > =

: > : All this talk-talk about "The Liberal Press" is no more meaningful or=

: > : realistic as was Goebbels' talk-talk about "The Jewish Press."
: > =

: > : Journalists don't need *COMMENTARY* rolling across the bottom of the
: > : screen. The answer is much more simple than that, but involves a litt=
: le
: > : brain sweat--too much to ask of a silver spoon fed public:
: > =

: > : http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php
: > =

: > : ---
: > : Art
: > =

: > : "No; I have not been charged with that.
: > : In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
: > :       ---Lee Oswald
: > :           (1963)
: > =

: > Interesting that you choose to quote Oswald. Rather believes he was gui=
: lty
: > you know.
: > =

: Who the fuk cares what Dan Rather thinks? He doesn't even know what the
: frequency is, Kenneth.

Kenneth?

: /I/ think Oswald /admits/ he's guilty with that quote. That's the point.

LHO was told by the dreaded media what his alleged crime was. It was THEN
that he made your quote.

So do you believe LHO was the lone killer of JFK a la the Warren Report?

Eric

: ---
: Art

: "No; I have not been charged with that. =

: In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
:       ---Lee Oswald
:           (1963)
Art McNutt - 23 Sep 2004 04:17 GMT
> : [snip because Stuart can't get access to his DSL]
> : > =
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> You tell me what happened.

Vo Nguyen Giap thought he'd repeat Dien Bien Phu on the Americans. He got his a.s

stomped. The American Military proved to be not ANYTHING like the French
Foreign Legion.

When he retired, it turns out that Dien Bien Phu was the only victory he
could claim to his credit. Ergo: he is usually thought of as a great
military strategist. "Greatest Military Mind of the 20th Century" is
what I believe George Magazine called him. Though, in George's defense,
it must be noted that it never claimed to be a military publication.

Just as Walter never claimed to have any military training or expertise.
You were just supposed to /assume/ it.

> : > =
>
> : > Are you blaming Cronkite for those 12,000 deaths or LBJ and Nixon?

[snip]

> : What the fuk does Hanoi's door have to do with anything? Vo Nguyen
> : Giap=A0had committed his whole army in an effort to take possession of AL=
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> A failure to the point that we could rally and then attack the north above
> the DMZ and seize Hanoi? Explain why that wasn't the next step.

Because only YOU ever thought of it. We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
North Vietnam or it's army. We were attempting to keep it from invading
and enslaving the South.

> : It cost alot of American and ARVN lives. But it cost the North more.
> : Much, much more in fact; and they could hardly afford them from a
> : military standpoint.
>
> Why didn't we launch a counter-offensive if you felt that the NV were
> weakened?

They didn't need to be weakened for the United States to invade North
Vietnam. The US could have seized the entire country any time it wished.
Though, to do so, it would also have had to face the entire PLA (Chinese
Army). The C.C.C.P., however, would probably have let us have it. They
would have grabbed Mongolia when Mao's back was turned.

However, it was the stated aim of the United States to defend South
Vietnam from North Vietnam. Just as Operation: Desert Storm's ONLY
objective was to oust Iraqi forces from the Kuwait.

To have turned around and invaded Hanoi OR Baghdad would have been
completely beyond the pale for exactly the same reasons.

> : Giap's army was completely shattered without attaining even one of its
> : objectives. The Viet Cong were reduced to 10% effectiveness for most of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No, an attack on the US emabassy in the south despite heavy casualties WAS
> effective. Your 35+ year revison doesn't indicate a US victory.

Only 19 Viet Cong reached the compound. None reached the Embassy alive.
A utter and complete failure--except in the tunnelvison of nightly news.
At least they actually TOOK Hue, but only briefly. While they held it,
btw, they executed something like 5,000 Hueans. This was the NVA's
version of Hearts and Minds.

> : That is, until they found out how it was playing in the American press.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> revisonist point of view. "We had the damn Vietnamese, but the US liberal
> media cost us the victory". Are you nuts?!

That's MC Nutt to you, buster.

Retired North Vietnamese General Bui Tin, in an interview with the Wall
Street Journal was asked about the results of Tet:

"Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me
that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned
political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run
for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were,
in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out
by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our
presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas.
If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969,
they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970
as it was."

   ---Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995.

> : > : Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions a=
> : nd
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Yes, but those speakers were as guilty as Clinton regarding adultry.

The Gops had a gal wired in the staff lunchroom--a few months before the
Dems intercepted a Ginghrich cell phone conversation.

They don't say it's hardball for nothin'.

> : > I see you're beneath the idea of statesmenship and resort to gross
> : > bipartisanism.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Of which Bush wanted no part of but which we the people deserved.

Oh puuuulease.

> : > =
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Kenneth?

You don't know the story behind Rather's brain damage, then?

Google "What's the frequency, Kenneth?"--I'm sure the story is out there
somewhere.

> : /I/ think Oswald /admits/ he's guilty with that quote. That's the point.
>
> LHO was told by the dreaded media what his alleged crime was. It was THEN
> that he made your quote.
>
> So do you believe LHO was the lone killer of JFK a la the Warren Report?

It is my reasoned opinion, yes. I suppose you're gonna bring up Guy
Bannister and Naval Intelligence now.

BTW, Gen. Bui Tin was ALSO asked about the effect of journalists and the
Anti-War movement on the North's War Effort and how it affected Hanoi's
eventual (default) victory:

"It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was
completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our
leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow
the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people
like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers
gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield
reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese
dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American
actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us."

Don't think for a moment that US Military strategists haven't figured
out how to use the Jackals to their own benefit. They have:

"JOINT OPERATION TARGETS INSURGENTS IN BAGHDAD

American Forces Press Service

"WASHINGTON, Sept. 22, 2004 -- U.S. soldiers of Task Force Baghdad, in
conjunction with Iraqi intervention forces, are conducting security
operations in eastern Baghdad targeting pockets of insurgents and
terrorists, a Multinational Force Iraq news release said.

"Besides ground troops patrolling the troubled eastern neighborhoods,
this joint operation has included limited precision fire from air
strikes over the past two days to engage insurgent crew-served weapon teams.

"The intent is to provide security for the people of Thawra so we can
get back to the business of reconstruction," 1st Cavalry Division
Commanding General Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli said.

"In other areas of Baghdad, Iraqi National Guard troops and Task Force
Baghdad soldiers conducted raids on suspected insurgent weapons caches
on Sept. 21.

"In an eight-hour timeframe, these raids netted six 155 mm artillery
shells and the packing material for an additional 11 shells. Eleven
suspected terrorists were also detained in the raids.

"Chiarelli recently commented on the violence in Baghdad and the efforts
the Multinational Forces are making to improve the security situation.

"If I can have peace ... today, I have enough money to do all the major
work in Baghdad," Chiarelli said. "We can do so much ... to turn around
the deplorable conditions in many portions of the city."

"While improvements are being made to Baghdad's infrastructure, Iraqi
security forces are working alongside 1st Cavalry Division soldiers to
ensure stability is maintained in dangerous areas of the city, such as
the Thawra section. Chiarelli said he believes the Iraqi security forces
are continually improving and getting stronger, but he stressed that the
residents of Baghdad could play a part in improving the security situation.

"Every tip they give us, every time they identify for us an (improvised
explosive device), a mortar or a (vehicle-borne improvised explosive
device), or a vehicle that they suspect, they make the security in
Baghdad just a little bit better," Chiarelli said.

"Recent violence in Thawra, Haifa Street, and in other areas of Baghdad
has caused concern about whether the 1st Cavalry Division can continue
to focus on providing assistance for civil military projects.

"As the security situation improves, projects to improve the city's
infrastructure, including water, sewer, trash and electricity services,
can continue unhindered, Chiarelli said. A project for a new sewer
system in the southern area of Thawra will begin this week."

http://www.dod.mil/news/Sep2004/n09222004_2004092206.html

---
Art
Dennis M. Hammes - 23 Sep 2004 18:38 GMT
...

> > A failure to the point that we could rally and then attack the north above
> > the DMZ and seize Hanoi? Explain why that wasn't the next step.
>
> Because only YOU ever thought of it.

Not, actually.  Westmoreland, like MacArthur in like case, was
removed from command for thinking of it more than once, and
Johnson's authorisation to Bomb Hanoi raised so much media stink he
refused to run for re-election in the belief it would cost his Party
the office (his replacement wasn't "good enough" in the campaign
sense to get it, anyway; one doesn't "groom a replacement" for a
President in his first term).
 The media are extremely fearful that if a military can remove a
Fearless Leader duly Anointed by a Licensed Propa..., ah, News Media
Conglomerate, in /Hanoi/, for being a half-trained mutt who doesn't
know where the property lines are, the resulting knighthood are
likely to believe they can remove a half-trained mutt duly Anointed
by a Licensed Pro..., ah, News Media Conglomerate, from /Washington/
for not knowing where the property lines are.

> We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
> North Vietnam or it's army. We were attempting to keep it from invading
> and enslaving the South.

The Pyongyang Syndrome, aka "The DFC is largely a matter of
map-reading."

For those who arrived late, this referred to the fact that an F-86E
scrambled from Seoul in response to a MiG 17 incursion could close
on, but could not often catch, the MiG until it slowed to land ten
miles on the other side of the Yalu River.
 For the really-late, that's ten miles inside China.
 In the 'Nam, the award hung less often from the chests of pilots
than from five miles of Cambodian airspace.
 For those still in bed, if you got the sucker on the other side of
the map squiggle, It Never Happened.
 "Pass Interference, Offense, Illegal Quarterback On Field, Penalty
Declined; Replace Quarterback, Replace Ball, Repeat First Down."

...

Signature

-------(m+
 ~/:o)_|
The most essential gift for a good writer is
a built-in, shock-proof, sh.t detector.  -- Hemingway
http://scrawlmark.org

Eric Chomko - 24 Sep 2004 15:57 GMT
: ...
: > >
: > > A failure to the point that we could rally and then attack the north above
: > > the DMZ and seize Hanoi? Explain why that wasn't the next step.
: >
: > Because only YOU ever thought of it.

: Not, actually.  Westmoreland, like MacArthur in like case, was
: removed from command for thinking of it more than once, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: sense to get it, anyway; one doesn't "groom a replacement" for a
: President in his first term).

Pleas provide a cite that LBJ intended to bomb Hanoi. I believe that the
was what Goldwater stated.

Also, Westmoreland painted a too rosy picture of us winning in Vietnam
which differed from what McNamara had learned. I believe that that
assessment is what caused Westmoreland to get canned.

MacArthur was canned by Truman because Truman felt that MacArthur had sort
of lost touch with reality. Making Truman wait for over an hour didn't
help the situation. Merle Miller's book "Plain Speaking", a biography
about Truman, explains the MacArthur firing in detail.

I wish you would do some " plain speaking" below!

Eric

:   The media are extremely fearful that if a military can remove a
: Fearless Leader duly Anointed by a Licensed Propa..., ah, News Media
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: by a Licensed Pro..., ah, News Media Conglomerate, from /Washington/
: for not knowing where the property lines are.

: > We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
: > North Vietnam or it's army. We were attempting to keep it from invading
: > and enslaving the South.

: The Pyongyang Syndrome, aka "The DFC is largely a matter of
: map-reading."

: For those who arrived late, this referred to the fact that an F-86E
: scrambled from Seoul in response to a MiG 17 incursion could close
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
: >
: ...
Art - 24 Sep 2004 18:00 GMT
> : ...
> : > >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Pleas provide a cite that LBJ intended to bomb Hanoi. I believe that the
> was what Goldwater stated.

Rolling Thunder rolled right to Hanoi's doorstep in 1968; and the only
logical next step was bombing Hanoi City, itself. CINCPAC, the Joint
Chiefs, Moscow, Beijing, Hanoi and The American public all knew this.

Dennis obviously means Johnson's authorization for greatly intensified
bombing of northern industrial targets; i.e., the heart of the
DRV--Hanoi, if you will.

Johnson stopped short, under the council of McNamara, of bombing Hanoi
City. He ended Rolling Thunder in October. McNamara is, in many senses,
an entire textbook demonstrating plainly to everyone (but himself) what
NOT to do in crisis.

The /actual/ bombing of Hanoi City was left to Linebacker I and II under
Nixon, and succeeded where Rolling Thunder had failed--Hanoi came to the
bargaining table under Linebacker I; they came BACK to the bargaining
table READY TO SERIOUSLY NEGOTIATE under Linebacker II.

> Also, Westmoreland painted a too rosy picture of us winning in Vietnam
> which differed from what McNamara had learned. I believe that that
> assessment is what caused Westmoreland to get canned.

The Rand analysis was what McNamara had 'learned.' Yet it was fuking
McNamara's war, for cryin' out loud. He convinced Johnson to write a
blank check to Saigon. He convinced Johnson to lie to the American
Public about it. He convinced Johnson to tell the American public he
wouldn't raise the troop level there. Johnson was soon after forced to
raise the level of American troops there so that Westmoreland could do
the job he'd been ordered to do under McNamara's restraints. McNamara
told Johnson they must keep the Chinese involvment a secret. He's the
one who convinced Johnson that they couldn't risk bombing Hanoi or
Haiphong harbor for fear of pissing off the Soviets or Chinese. McNamara
was the one who convinced himself, and Johnson, that the bombing
campaign just simply wouldn't work.

Yes, getting rid of Westmoreland was just one more of McNamara's mistakes.

> MacArthur was canned by Truman because Truman felt that MacArthur had sort
> of lost touch with reality. Making Truman wait for over an hour didn't
> help the situation. Merle Miller's book "Plain Speaking", a biography
> about Truman, explains the MacArthur firing in detail.

MacArthur had lost touch with reality by understanding much better than
Truman and his advisors just what was really at stake in Korea. Hence,
we're STILL patrolling the DMZ in 2004.

> I wish you would do some " plain speaking" below!

/Everyone/ says that when they first begin to read Dennis's posts. Later
on they realize that he is.

> Eric
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> :   "Pass Interference, Offense, Illegal Quarterback On Field, Penalty
> : Declined; Replace Quarterback, Replace Ball, Repeat First Down."

---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Eric Chomko - 24 Sep 2004 18:40 GMT
: > : ...
: > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
: > Pleas provide a cite that LBJ intended to bomb Hanoi. I believe that the
: > was what Goldwater stated.

: Rolling Thunder rolled right to Hanoi's doorstep in 1968; and the only
: logical next step was bombing Hanoi City, itself. CINCPAC, the Joint
: Chiefs, Moscow, Beijing, Hanoi and The American public all knew this.

Cite?

: Dennis obviously means Johnson's authorization for greatly intensified
: bombing of northern industrial targets; i.e., the heart of the
: DRV--Hanoi, if you will.

: Johnson stopped short, under the council of McNamara, of bombing Hanoi
: City. He ended Rolling Thunder in October. McNamara is, in many senses,
: an entire textbook demonstrating plainly to everyone (but himself) what
: NOT to do in crisis.

: The /actual/ bombing of Hanoi City was left to Linebacker I and II under
: Nixon, and succeeded where Rolling Thunder had failed--Hanoi came to the
: bargaining table under Linebacker I; they came BACK to the bargaining
: table READY TO SERIOUSLY NEGOTIATE under Linebacker II.

So they were ready to surrender? What stopped that from happening?

: > Also, Westmoreland painted a too rosy picture of us winning in Vietnam
: > which differed from what McNamara had learned. I believe that that
: > assessment is what caused Westmoreland to get canned.

: The Rand analysis was what McNamara had 'learned.' Yet it was fuking
: McNamara's war, for cryin' out loud. He convinced Johnson to write a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
: was the one who convinced himself, and Johnson, that the bombing
: campaign just simply wouldn't work.

So McNamara engineered the Gulf of Tonkin conflict to get us into an overt
operation in Vietnam?

: Yes, getting rid of Westmoreland was just one more of McNamara's mistakes.

Yeah, then McNamara resigns.

I simply think your analysis is bullshit! It doesn't fit with the facts.

First off, Laird and other Sec. of Defs under Nixon had plenty of time to
fix the screwups that you claim were left behind my McNamara. Nothing was
fixed by the time we pulled the troops out in 73. Our ditch effort to win
covertly ended in 75 with the final evacuation. Your spin doesn't change
either of those facts.

Second, your claim of the Linebacker missions as success didn't lead to a
NV surrender as is your want. Again, you state something that doesn't fit
with the facts. You and many others can't seem to handle that we didn't
meet our objective in Vietnam. Spin yourself silly with terms like
"stalemate" and the like, but when you start trying to convince yourself
that we actually won, then you're simply full of crap. In your case it
goes deeper. Pressed, you'll agree we failed, but then you'll spin that it
was actually a Democratic Party loss (i.e. LBJ and McNamara's war) and
that the Republicans "won" their part of the war. Somewhere in your
Nixonian-like mind you're convinced that had the Democrat part of the
war been anything but a total failure, then we would have won the war.
Again, this is total crap!

: > MacArthur was canned by Truman because Truman felt that MacArthur had sort
: > of lost touch with reality. Making Truman wait for over an hour didn't
: > help the situation. Merle Miller's book "Plain Speaking", a biography
: > about Truman, explains the MacArthur firing in detail.

: MacArthur had lost touch with reality by understanding much better than
: Truman and his advisors just what was really at stake in Korea. Hence,
: we're STILL patrolling the DMZ in 2004.

I think you imply a better situation in Korea had McArthur stayed on. No
proof of that.

: > I wish you would do some " plain speaking" below!

: /Everyone/ says that when they first begin to read Dennis's posts. Later
: on they realize that he is.

Whatever...

Eric

: > Eric
: >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
: > :   "Pass Interference, Offense, Illegal Quarterback On Field, Penalty
: > : Declined; Replace Quarterback, Replace Ball, Repeat First Down."

: ---
: Art

: "No; I have not been charged with that.
: In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
:       ---Lee Oswald
:           (1963)
Art - 24 Sep 2004 20:06 GMT
[snip]

> : Rolling Thunder rolled right to Hanoi's doorstep in 1968; and the only
> : logical next step was bombing Hanoi City, itself. CINCPAC, the Joint
> : Chiefs, Moscow, Beijing, Hanoi and The American public all knew this.
>
> Cite?

Where do /you/ think 'graduated pressure' leads? HmmmmmMMMMMMM?

> : Dennis obviously means Johnson's authorization for greatly intensified
> : bombing of northern industrial targets; i.e., the heart of the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> So they were ready to surrender? What stopped that from happening?

You really need to brush up for this conversation to lead anywhere. No
where in any stated aims or goals AT ANY TIME was Washington demanding
Hanoi's surrender. We weren't at war with the DRV, we merely wanted them
to stop pursuing their military takeover of South Vietnam.

Which they agreed to, finally, in January of 1973.

> : > Also, Westmoreland painted a too rosy picture of us winning in Vietnam
> : > which differed from what McNamara had learned. I believe that that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> So McNamara engineered the Gulf of Tonkin conflict to get us into an overt
> operation in Vietnam?

http://www.whitehousetapes.org/archive/RG01_wh_recordings/S05_lbj/telephone/conv
ersations/1964/lbj_wh6408_03_4639_mcnamara.mp3


> : Yes, getting rid of Westmoreland was just one more of McNamara's mistakes.
>
> Yeah, then McNamara resigns.
>
> I simply think your analysis is bullshit! It doesn't fit with the facts.

Facts? So why don't you RTFB, then?

> First off, Laird and other Sec. of Defs under Nixon had plenty of time to
> fix the screwups that you claim were left behind my McNamara. Nothing was
> fixed by the time we pulled the troops out in 73. Our ditch effort to win
> covertly ended in 75 with the final evacuation. Your spin doesn't change
> either of those facts.

Oh please. I just ate. My stomach can't handle this anymore.

---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Mr Stu Pididiot - 25 Sep 2004 05:31 GMT
> : > : ...
> : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> : an entire textbook demonstrating plainly to everyone (but himself) what
> : NOT to do in crisis.

Why overanalyze things? We got into a war of attrition
with an enemy that wanted it more. So, of course, we
lost it. The war of attrition was a result of our deciding
early on to contain, not conquer. This lack of determination
has to be chalked up to the underlying fear of the cold war
and it's nightmare scenarios.

> : The /actual/ bombing of Hanoi City was left to Linebacker I and II under
> : Nixon, and succeeded where Rolling Thunder had failed--Hanoi came to the
[quoted text clipped - 105 lines]
> :       ---Lee Oswald
> :           (1963)
Dennis M. Hammes - 26 Sep 2004 03:40 GMT
> > : > : ...
> > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> has to be chalked up to the underlying fear of the cold war
> and it's nightmare scenarios.

Why overanalyse things?  We didn't get into a war at all.
 We got into a Police Action at the invitation of the country who
was running it.
 It was a vague parallel to another Police Action we got into in a
country that's /not/ running it.

The /war/ was with China, and our primary ally was Russia.
 Russia helped China and the NVA against us to prove to them that
they couldn't kick our a.ses even /with/ Russian help.
 This revisionism did not fully emerge until the collapse of the
SovUnion in 1989, though it was well known to many analysts and
reported routinely by defectors throughout the Cold War.
 The filthiest, bloodiest, and most hateful wars are sectarian
wars, and Russia and China were having one over Marx/Leninism vs.
Maoism.
 Russia could not have invaded Europe under any circumstances; the
Chinese would have rolled up their a.ses.
 Nor could they attack China, as we would have taken back Eastern
Europe, costing the Soviet all the industrial plant they had stolen
after WWII, thus costing them the war with China.
 It was necessary for our friends the Soviets to keep China from
attacking the U.S. directly by showing them how well the U.S. shot
down MiGs over Korea and Viet Nam.
 It was necessary to keep China from enlisting indigenous aid by
showing them that the indigenes, issued AK-47s, only fired them at
cameramen and the Great Face In The Sky, which caused the indigenes
carrying M-16s to drop them on the ground for the surplus market
("The Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes").
Signature

-------(m+
 ~/:o)_|
The most essential gift for a good writer is
a built-in, shock-proof, sh.t detector.  -- Hemingway
http://scrawlmark.org

Eric Chomko - 27 Sep 2004 17:15 GMT
: > > : > : ...
: > > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
:   We got into a Police Action at the invitation of the country who
: was running it.

Invation? So was the Domino Theory THAT invitation? I thougt the DT came
from some right-wing think tank and not the govt of SV? Please elaborate.

:   It was a vague parallel to another Police Action we got into in a
: country that's /not/ running it.

Iraq, now? Or Iran in 1953?

: The /war/ was with China, and our primary ally was Russia.

Yeah, those Ruskies really helped out in Vietnam.

I understand the success of the Cold War by not having the USSR and China
unite against us. But I don't see Vietnam as the key. Perhaps you know
better?

:   Russia helped China and the NVA against us to prove to them that
: they couldn't kick our a.ses even /with/ Russian help.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: wars, and Russia and China were having one over Marx/Leninism vs.
: Maoism.

Better them fighting each other rather than one or both fighting us.

:   Russia could not have invaded Europe under any circumstances; the
: Chinese would have rolled up their a.ses.

Why would China care to save Europe from Russia? Do you make this sh.t up
as you go along or do you have any actual research?

:   Nor could they attack China, as we would have taken back Eastern
: Europe, costing the Soviet all the industrial plant they had stolen
: after WWII, thus costing them the war with China.
:   It was necessary for our friends the Soviets to keep China from
: attacking the U.S. directly by showing them how well the U.S. shot
: down MiGs over Korea and Viet Nam.

Seems like a huge price to pay (58K lost US soldiers) to make that point!

:   It was necessary to keep China from enlisting indigenous aid by
: showing them that the indigenes, issued AK-47s, only fired them at
: cameramen and the Great Face In The Sky, which caused the indigenes
: carrying M-16s to drop them on the ground for the surplus market
: ("The Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes").

I think you need to sell some of your guns and get butter as I think the
lack of food has befuddled your brain.

Eric
Eric Chomko - 27 Sep 2004 17:02 GMT
: > : > : ...
: > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
: > : an entire textbook demonstrating plainly to everyone (but himself) what
: > : NOT to do in crisis.

: Why overanalyze things? We got into a war of attrition
: with an enemy that wanted it more. So, of course, we
: lost it. The war of attrition was a result of our deciding
: early on to contain, not conquer. This lack of determination
: has to be chalked up to the underlying fear of the cold war
: and it's nightmare scenarios.

Well put. So, why fight a war that has inherent limitations based upon the
scenarios you cite? My guess if for pure economic reasons. After WWII the
aspect of national defense became a standing industry, and one that needs
to be fed. Vietnam and now Iraq feed the national security monster, err,
industry.

Eric
Art - 27 Sep 2004 18:41 GMT
> : Why overanalyze things? We got into a war of attrition
> : with an enemy that wanted it more. So, of course, we
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to be fed. Vietnam and now Iraq feed the national security monster, err,
> industry.

Ike warned about it, then Kennedy got killed 'cause he bucked it.

The Military-Industrial Complex.

Jung described this complex as analencephalitis. It's where a healthy
mistrust of government and its motives becomes unreasoned paranoia. The
root causes of this complex are thought to stem from the limitless
demands some sufferers place upon their government. They become paranoid
as they realize everyone /else/ is placing unreasonable demands on this
government too, and they tend to think that individuals and
organizations with more clout are getting theirs while the sufferer is
being left out in the cold.

Hence, everything bad that happens is a direct result of the other guy
getting his. Even bad things the Government could not reasonably be
assumed to have caused. Everything good that happens is only a result of
the government giving the sufferer what he demands. Which is never quite
good /enough/.

One who is in the throws of this affliction is commonly called a "helot."

Kennedy was interested in Vietnam because he sensed the Soviets and the
PRC were ALSO interested in Vietnam, and willing to invest a
considerable amount of Political Stock to possess it. He backed away
because the UN created South couldn't keep their own sh.t organized.
Johnson, Kennedy's understudy who hadn't prepared for the part, jumped
in with both feet ONLY because he thought the Soviets and the Chinese
were interested in it.

That McNamara and LBJ were too eager to jump into the Golf of Tomkin is
a matter of historical record. The same may well be true of Cheney and
Dubya as they jumped into Iraq. War profiteers made a handsome profit in
both instances, and they had been advocating similar actions for years,
in both cases. This too is a matter of historical record.

Still, it is rather difficult to draw the conclusion /any/ American
President had his personal advantage in mind when he gave the orders to
spill American blood. Johnson, in his candid private conversations,
repeatedly relates his fear of having to face all those mommas if he
couldn't prove that his actions were both necessary and right for the
good of the country.

History has shown again and again that no President has ever undertaken
such actions without, what most of us would consider, sufficient
gravity. Even when Mick Jagger ordered an attack on Kosovo, most were
unwilling to conclude that it wasn't the right thing to do, at the right
time and for the right reasons.

Only helots are glib enough and cynical enough to assume that Dupont
started the Civil War, or that McDonnell Douglas got us into Vietnam or
that Halliburton got us into Iraq. War profiteers have always been
there, licking their lips like Helots, but they don't run this country...yet.

If you believe they do, I suggest that it is long since past the time
when it's important to get out the vote. It's time, rather, for the Revolution.

---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Dennis M. Hammes - 28 Sep 2004 16:28 GMT
> : > : > : ...
> : > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Well put. So, why fight a war that has inherent limitations based upon the
> scenarios you cite? My guess if for pure economic reasons. After WWII

WHAAAAT?
 Never heard of Nobel or Krupp?
 The Eli Whitney template?
 The trade tomahawk?
 The Pappenheimer?
 /Das Rheingeld/?  ("-geld," sic.)
 The Rings of Power?
 Don't know why the Trojan war was fought?
 Or why Jason took the Golden Fleece a generation earlier?
 Or why Rome supplanted Greece?
 Or why the Goths supplanted Rome?  (/Das Rheingeld/.)
 To fire 25,000 arrows at Agincourt, you have to /have/ 25,000
arrows (I'm figuring 5000 men at five arrows per man, both low.)

> the
> aspect of national defense became a standing industry, and one that needs
> to be fed. Vietnam and now Iraq feed the national security monster, err,
> industry.
>
> Eric

Anybody who pules this much about somebody else's cooking obviously
hasn't even found the Holy Grail.
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Eric Chomko - 28 Sep 2004 19:54 GMT
: > : > : > : ...
: > : > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
: > Well put. So, why fight a war that has inherent limitations based upon the
: > scenarios you cite? My guess if for pure economic reasons. After WWII

: WHAAAAT?
:   Never heard of Nobel or Krupp?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
:   To fire 25,000 arrows at Agincourt, you have to /have/ 25,000
: arrows (I'm figuring 5000 men at five arrows per man, both low.)

All of which changes in the face of nukes. Your romantic aspect of war
went up in a mushroom cloud (actually two) in Japan in 1945. Hate the
French all you want, but since they have the bomb, do you think any one is
going to mess with them?

: > the
: > aspect of national defense became a standing industry, and one that needs
: > to be fed. Vietnam and now Iraq feed the national security monster, err,
: > industry.

: Anybody who pules this much about somebody else's cooking obviously
: hasn't even found the Holy Grail.

Yeah, and you should get out more...

Eric
Dennis M. Hammes - 26 Sep 2004 03:20 GMT
> : > : ...
> : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Cite?

Ah, another follower of Pope Peter, who insists that /I/ am to
verify the accuracy of his "information" for him.
 Little boy, if somebody has to tell you you know something, you
don't.
 So I'll just "cite" the daily news from 1962-1972 and a four-year
hitch.
 Under McNamara, a bitch almost as two-faced as Kerry.
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Eric Chomko - 27 Sep 2004 17:05 GMT
: > : > : ...
: > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
: >
: > Cite?

: Ah, another follower of Pope Peter, who insists that /I/ am to
: verify the accuracy of his "information" for him.
:   Little boy, if somebody has to tell you you know something, you
: don't.

Translation: You don't have a citation. And save the "little boy" crap for
someone that actually is scared of your bullying.

:   So I'll just "cite" the daily news from 1962-1972 and a four-year
: hitch.

$ years in Vietnam?

:   Under McNamara, a bitch almost as two-faced as Kerry.

I think if they had "R" after their names, you'd find a way to forgive
them. ;)

Eric
Dennis M. Hammes - 28 Sep 2004 16:34 GMT
> : > : > : ...
> : > : > : > >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Translation: You don't have a citation. And save the "little boy" crap for
> someone that actually is scared of your bullying.

Like you?
 If somebody has to tell you who told him /he/ knows something, he
doesn't.
 Of course, no circle-suck in the history of mankind can afford to
have that known.
 It's why I pointed it out.

> :   So I'll just "cite" the daily news from 1962-1972 and a four-year
> : hitch.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Eric

Your Potemkin Village Syndrome is drijbbling down your chin again.
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Eric Chomko - 23 Sep 2004 19:07 GMT
: > : [snip because Stuart can't get access to his DSL]
: > : > =
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
: >
: > You tell me what happened.

: Vo Nguyen Giap thought he'd repeat Dien Bien Phu on the Americans. He got his a.s

: stomped. The American Military proved to be not ANYTHING like the French
: Foreign Legion.

: When he retired, it turns out that Dien Bien Phu was the only victory he
: could claim to his credit. Ergo: he is usually thought of as a great
: military strategist. "Greatest Military Mind of the 20th Century" is
: what I believe George Magazine called him. Though, in George's defense,
: it must be noted that it never claimed to be a military publication.

: Just as Walter never claimed to have any military training or expertise.
: You were just supposed to /assume/ it.

: > : > =
: >
: > : > Are you blaming Cronkite for those 12,000 deaths or LBJ and Nixon?

: [snip]

: > : What the fuk does Hanoi's door have to do with anything? Vo Nguyen
: > : Giap=A0had committed his whole army in an effort to take possession of AL=
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: > A failure to the point that we could rally and then attack the north above
: > the DMZ and seize Hanoi? Explain why that wasn't the next step.

: Because only YOU ever thought of it. We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
: North Vietnam or it's army. We were attempting to keep it from invading
: and enslaving the South.

Total defensive posture was suppose to win the war? RIGHT THERE, you said
that the war was unwinnable! Were we supposed to just stay until the NV
got tired and stop sending troops? Have them go out of their way to come
the very last time with white flags instead of arms? You "we really
didn't lose in Vietnam" types are a sad joke...

: > : It cost alot of American and ARVN lives. But it cost the North more.
: > : Much, much more in fact; and they could hardly afford them from a
: > : military standpoint.
: >
: > Why didn't we launch a counter-offensive if you felt that the NV were
: > weakened?

: They didn't need to be weakened for the United States to invade North
: Vietnam. The US could have seized the entire country any time it wished.

Why didn't we do so? We could have nuked Hanoi, too.

: Though, to do so, it would also have had to face the entire PLA (Chinese
: Army). The C.C.C.P., however, would probably have let us have it. They
: would have grabbed Mongolia when Mao's back was turned.

What would we have had? By "owning" Vietnam would that have stopped the
so-called "Domino Theory"? I bet you believe that the Domino Theory proved
correct, right? Phillipines, New Zealand, and Australia are all communist
countries along with all of Indochina.

: However, it was the stated aim of the United States to defend South
: Vietnam from North Vietnam. Just as Operation: Desert Storm's ONLY
: objective was to oust Iraqi forces from the Kuwait.

But at several times in Desert Storm we took the offensive when we needed
to.

: To have turned around and invaded Hanoi OR Baghdad would have been
: completely beyond the pale for exactly the same reasons.

Yet, we did EXACTLY that with Baghdad with Bush II. Iraq was on ice, so to
speak, until son came to finish his father's work. From THAT point of
view (valid), your analogy regarding Vietnam and Iraq falls by the
wayside.

: > : Giap's army was completely shattered without attaining even one of its
: > : objectives. The Viet Cong were reduced to 10% effectiveness for most of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: > No, an attack on the US emabassy in the south despite heavy casualties WAS
: > effective. Your 35+ year revison doesn't indicate a US victory.

: Only 19 Viet Cong reached the compound. None reached the Embassy alive.
: A utter and complete failure--except in the tunnelvison of nightly news.
: At least they actually TOOK Hue, but only briefly. While they held it,
: btw, they executed something like 5,000 Hueans. This was the NVA's
: version of Hearts and Minds.

The shocker of Tet as the element of surprise and how quickly the NV got
to Saigon. Do you have an "FDR-knew-about-Pearl-Harbor-before-it-happened"
equivalent for Tet? It would sure fit your brand of spin.

: > : That is, until they found out how it was playing in the American press.
: >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
: > revisonist point of view. "We had the damn Vietnamese, but the US liberal
: > media cost us the victory". Are you nuts?!

: That's MC Nutt to you, buster.

Yes, whatever...

: Retired North Vietnamese General Bui Tin, in an interview with the Wall
: Street Journal was asked about the results of Tet:

: "Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me
: that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970
: as it was."

:     ---Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995.

Sounds a lot like Superbowl winner's coach talking about how great the
other team played, etc.

: > : > : Walter, in 1968, made no distinction between his malformed opinions a=
: > : nd
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
: >
: > Yes, but those speakers were as guilty as Clinton regarding adultry.

: The Gops had a gal wired in the staff lunchroom--a few months before the
: Dems intercepted a Ginghrich cell phone conversation.

: They don't say it's hardball for nothin'.

I thought the Larry Flynt $1 million offer scared up several bimbos that
ratted on their former GOP partners?

: > : > I see you're beneath the idea of statesmenship and resort to gross
: > : > bipartisanism.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: >
: > Of which Bush wanted no part of but which we the people deserved.

: Oh puuuulease.

Bush never wanted an independent commission looking into 9/11. Then when
it was eminent he said it was a good idea. Talk about flip-flop...

: > : > =
: >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
: >
: > Kenneth?

: You don't know the story behind Rather's brain damage, then?

: Google "What's the frequency, Kenneth?"--I'm sure the story is out there
: somewhere.

Okay...

: > : /I/ think Oswald /admits/ he's guilty with that quote. That's the point.
: >
: > LHO was told by the dreaded media what his alleged crime was. It was THEN
: > that he made your quote.
: >
: > So do you believe LHO was the lone killer of JFK a la the Warren Report?

: It is my reasoned opinion, yes. I suppose you're gonna bring up Guy
: Bannister and Naval Intelligence now.

No, Cuban exiles and Hoover to cover it up.

: BTW, Gen. Bui Tin was ALSO asked about the effect of journalists and the
: Anti-War movement on the North's War Effort and how it affected Hanoi's
: eventual (default) victory:

: "It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was
: completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American
: actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us."

Yep, we should all just sit still and lie for our government when we have
to. THAT is what's right!

: Don't think for a moment that US Military strategists haven't figured
: out how to use the Jackals to their own benefit. They have:

: "JOINT OPERATION TARGETS INSURGENTS IN BAGHDAD

: American Forces Press Service

: "WASHINGTON, Sept. 22, 2004 -- U.S. soldiers of Task Force Baghdad, in
: conjunction with Iraqi intervention forces, are conducting security
: operations in eastern Baghdad targeting pockets of insurgents and
: terrorists, a Multinational Force Iraq news release said.

: "Besides ground troops patrolling the troubled eastern neighborhoods,
: this joint operation has included limited precision fire from air
: strikes over the past two days to engage insurgent crew-served weapon teams.

: "The intent is to provide security for the people of Thawra so we can
: get back to the business of reconstruction," 1st Cavalry Division
: Commanding General Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli said.

: "In other areas of Baghdad, Iraqi National Guard troops and Task Force
: Baghdad soldiers conducted raids on suspected insurgent weapons caches
: on Sept. 21.

: "In an eight-hour timeframe, these raids netted six 155 mm artillery
: shells and the packing material for an additional 11 shells. Eleven
: suspected terrorists were also detained in the raids.

: "Chiarelli recently commented on the violence in Baghdad and the efforts
: the Multinational Forces are making to improve the security situation.

: "If I can have peace ... today, I have enough money to do all the major
: work in Baghdad," Chiarelli said. "We can do so much ... to turn around
: the deplorable conditions in many portions of the city."

: "While improvements are being made to Baghdad's infrastructure, Iraqi
: security forces are working alongside 1st Cavalry Division soldiers to
: ensure stability is maintained in dangerous areas of the city, such as
: the Thawra section. Chiarelli said he believes the Iraqi security forces
: are continually improving and getting stronger, but he stressed that the
: residents of Baghdad could play a part in improving the security situation.

: "Every tip they give us, every time they identify for us an (improvised
: explosive device), a mortar or a (vehicle-borne improvised explosive
: device), or a vehicle that they suspect, they make the security in
: Baghdad just a little bit better," Chiarelli said.

: "Recent violence in Thawra, Haifa Street, and in other areas of Baghdad
: has caused concern about whether the 1st Cavalry Division can continue
: to focus on providing assistance for civil military projects.

: "As the security situation improves, projects to improve the city's
: infrastructure, including water, sewer, trash and electricity services,
: can continue unhindered, Chiarelli said. A project for a new sewer
: system in the southern area of Thawra will begin this week."

: http://www.dod.mil/news/Sep2004/n09222004_2004092206.html

: ---
: Art

Find a way to make war unprofitable and you'll end having them. Until then
we'll be talking about "freedom and democracy" while others take it all to
the bank.

You should read "Addicted to War", by Joel Andreas.

Eric
Art - 24 Sep 2004 18:35 GMT
[snip]
> : Because only YOU ever thought of it. We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
> : North Vietnam or it's army. We were attempting to keep it from invading
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the very last time with white flags instead of arms? You "we really
> didn't lose in Vietnam" types are a sad joke...

Arguing what I wrote is hardly going to advance the discussion, only
because you seem to not understand the facts of the case: We could only
fruitfully argue my characterization once you're more familiar with the
historical events.

A defensive posture is what America assumed because it would OTHERWISE
be guilty of what the whole world and half her own citizens accuse her
of daily. America, for good or ill, refuses to violate the trust no one
has invested in her. This may or may not include you.

I never said or implied the war was unwinnable. I never said that a
completely defensive strategy in Vietnam would make it anything but
difficult and/or costly to win. Despite what you've been told by people
with warped agendas and a need to justify their lack of faith which
bordered, at the time, on treason, America achieved every one of its
objectives in Vietnam; Despite Walter Cronkite, The Washington Post, and
the Kiddies who took over their Dean's Offices all across these fruited plains.

http://www.gruntonline.com/TheWar/peace_accord1.htm

Hanoi swore to not enlist the help of the PRC or the CCCP in its design
to forcibly annex the South. It swore to never again sponsor terrorist
insurgents in the South. It swore it would not invade the South with
it's shitty slave army ever again, nor would it violate international
law by circumventing the 17th Parallel or utilize the roadways it'd
built in neighboring countries for that very purpose. Hanoi swore to
return all US and ARVN prisoners of war.

27 January, 1973 the war ended, and America won.

"But, America LOST Vietnam!" you say.

"No we didn't." I say.

"Then how come they changed the name of Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City?
Isn't it a communist country today--even though we fought to prevent
that? Art, you're just not making very much sense here."

Because, before spring had come in 1973, Hanoi realized there wasn't a
change in hell that elections in the South would EVER bring a
reunification of the two Vietnams under communist rule. They prepared to
renew their aim of forcibly annexing the south. Despite their oaths.

It used the cease fire and lack of American bombing to rebuild its forces.

By Spring 1973, Watergate had already forced Nixon to fire 4 top
staffers. By Summer, Congress passed the Case-Church legislation which,
remarkably, made it illegal for The Commander in Chief to ever again
deploy US armed forces in Vietnam, its airspace or its territorial
waters. Congress refused to further fund operations in Indochina. In
August, the Senate passed The War Powers Act. In other words, Congress
had made it impossible for the US to enforce the Paris Peace Accords, no
matter what North Vietnam might do in the future.

Hanoi took these developments to heart, but confined itself to probing
actions into the South--now free of retaliatory bombing from US B-52's.
Despite political developments it was observing in the US, Hanoi was
unwilling to overtly violate the Peace Accords while Nixon remained in office.

This obstacle was removed for them in summer 1974.

By late in the year they had taken Quan Tri. They held tight and awaited
US and world reaction for three months. When they were sure they could
do so with impunity, the NVA launched a full scale invasion, this time
NOT under the guidance of their 'military genius' General Giap. This
time WITHOUT American interference. And, of course, the UN was still
asleep.

It succeeded.

America's hard won objectives in Vietnam were /thrown away/--not lost.

"History is nothing but a fable agreed upon."
  ---Bonaparte

Consider yourself agreed upon.
---
Art

"No; I have not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet."
     ---Lee Oswald
         (1963)
Dennis M. Hammes - 26 Sep 2004 03:54 GMT
> [snip]
> > : Because only YOU ever thought of it. We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> fruitfully argue my characterization once you're more familiar with the
> historical events.

The first of which is that we did not /lose/, we were withdrawn by
politicians who wanted to spend the money on bachelor's decrees for
Democrat's babies.
 Which they did.
 Democrats with cameras fillumed the last company on the roof of
the Embassy being surrounded by five divisions of NVA, the only
ratio they were ever really comfortable with.  So that it looked
like a debacle after edit, but even there we didn't lose anybody to
speak of and not even /that "battle"/.  Which wasn't a battle.  It
was an armed taxi service severing diplomatic relations as ordered.
 The Marines have done about as good a job in every other case we
were invited to leave the Embassy in like manner.
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Eric Chomko - 27 Sep 2004 17:31 GMT
: > [snip]
: > > : Because only YOU ever thought of it. We weren't ATTEMPTING to destroy
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: > fruitfully argue my characterization once you're more familiar with the
: > historical events.

: The first of which is that we did not /lose/, we were withdrawn by
: politicians who wanted to spend the money on bachelor's decrees for
: Democrat's babies.

Republicans don't go to college? Maybe YOU'RE not officer material?

:   Which they did.
:   Democrats with cameras fillumed the last company on the roof of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: speak of and not even /that "battle"/.  Which wasn't a battle.  It
: was an armed taxi service severing diplomatic relations as ordered.

The '75 evacuation?

:   The Marines have done about as good a job in every other case we
: were invited to leave the Embassy in like manner.

Invited to leave? Yeah, that's what it was...

Eric
Dennis M. Hammes - 26 Sep 2004 03:47 GMT
...

> Total defensive posture was suppose to win the war? RIGHT THERE, you said
> that the war was unwinnable! Were we supposed to just stay until the NV
> got tired and stop sending troops? Have them go out of their way to come
> the very last time with white flags instead of arms? You "we really
> didn't lose in Vietnam" types are a sad joke...

What "war"?  Viet Nam was a /Police Action/ by invitation of the
host country.
 And a police are a /totally/ defensive posture.
 What part of this do you still not understand after 40 years?

...

P.S.:  The U.S. presence in Germany and Japan were definitively
police presenses and definitively defensive.
 But /we/ directed that presence; in the 'Nam, South Viet Nam
directed it.
 Ida said that two out of three isn't bad, but the fact is that two
out of two isn't bad.
 Iraq is looking pretty good to everybody but a few puling
Democrats with TV cameras.
 Because /we're/ running that one.
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Eric Chomko - 27 Sep 2004 17:27 GMT
: ...
: >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: > the very last time with white flags instead of arms? You "we really
: > didn't lose in Vietnam" types are a sad joke...

: What "war"?  Viet Nam was a /Police Action/ by invitation of the
: host country.

Yeah, you keep saying that. Domino Theory. Perhaps you should look it up.
Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Again, you should look it up.

:   And a police are a /totally/ defensive posture.

Tell that to the people in Chicago in 1968!! Or in Mississippi in the
early 60s...

:   What part of this do you still not understand after 40 years?

Phil Ochs did have a song, "We're the Cops of the World". Surely, you
being a product of the era, know who Phil Ochs is, right? Oh, and Ochs'
song is 40 years old.

: ...

: P.S.:  The U.S. presence in Germany and Japan were definitively
: police presenses and definitively defensive.

Those two nukes in Japan were a "defensive" move?!? I used to think that
you might be a little confused. No, you are A LOT confused!!!

Bombing Dresden and Munich were defensive, huh? I've seen that "defensive"
pile of rubble outside of Munich, have you?

I'm an army brat that live in Germany in the 60s and 70s. Who the hell do
you think you're trying to bullshit?! My dad served 30 years.

Dennis, you might be the dumbest SOB to ever post on USENET.

:   But /we/ directed that presence; in the 'Nam, South Viet Nam
: directed it.
:   Ida said that two out of three isn't bad, but the fact is that two
: out of two isn't bad.
:   Iraq is looking pretty good to everybody but a few puling
: Democrats with TV cameras.

Man, hearing that we are doing well in Iraq from you, with your track
reocrd for acccuarcy in war history, is a frightening thought indeed. You
seem to get everything a.s backwards. Hopefully on this latter revalation,
you get it right.

:   Because /we're/ running that one.

Eric
Dennis M. Hammes - 28 Sep 2004 16:58 GMT
> : ...
> : >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Tell that to the people in Chicago in 1968!!

I told Gary and Cleveland.
 Funniest thing about the whole scenario was that the little brown
monkey friends were burning and looting /their own/ ghettos.

> Or in Mississippi in the
> early 60s...

"Fust we won deh Rat teh sit at deh lunch countah, an' nen we foun'
we coon't pay fo' deh MEE-ul.  We needs mo' /Rats/."  -- The Very
Reverend Jesse Jackson
 JEE-zuss tol' him teh say dat...

> :   What part of this do you still not understand after 40 years?
>
> Phil Ochs did have a song, "We're the Cops of the World". Surely, you
> being a product of the era, know who Phil Ochs is, right? Oh, and Ochs'
> song is 40 years old.

Actually, I'm not.  I'm the product of parents who prospered in the
Depression and on both sides of it.

> : ...
>
> : P.S.:  The U.S. presence in Germany and Japan were definitively
> : police presenses and definitively defensive.
>
> Those two nukes in Japan were a "defensive" move?!?

Just how prick-sucking illiterate are you, anyway?
 (This is a Test.  We repeat, this is only a Test.  It cannot be
passed by little brown monkeys claiming to be Friends.)

> I used to think that
> you might be a little confused. No, you are A LOT confused!!!

By your trying to appear human via words on a Turing screen?
 Naaah.
 You're a monkey.

> Bombing Dresden and Munich were defensive, huh? I've seen that "defensive"
> pile of rubble outside of Munich, have you?

Yes, actually.  Lived in such a pile in Augsburg (fifty klicks up
the road) for nine months.
 It wasn't "defensive."
 And you flunk the Test twice in a row over the same word.
 Not only a monkey, but a /stupid/ monkey.
 (The flunk-word isn't "defensive," either, stupid monkey.)

> I'm an army brat that live in Germany in the 60s and 70s. Who the hell do
> you think you're trying to bullshit?! My dad served 30 years.

And you served none.  Just another brat.
 Only a monkey would insist he put on his Daddy's Powowers with his
Daddy's Clothes.
 Especially when he does it to assert that his gibber disparages
his Daddy's Powowers.
 The Clothes aren't wearing any Emperor, monkey.

> Dennis, you might be the dumbest SOB to ever post on USENET.

/For/ posting on UseNet, perhaps.
 But unlike you and your little monkey friends, I pay for my own
research.

> :   But /we/ directed that presence; in the 'Nam, South Viet Nam
> : directed it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> seem to get everything a.s backwards. Hopefully on this latter revalation,
> you get it right.

For Behold, in those days, I, John, saw another Angel...
 Which one are you?  Famine or Pestilence?
 Or have you just put a bucket on a stick so that you can tell
everybody you ride a pail horse?
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 ~/:o)_|
The most essential gift for a good writer is
a built-in, shock-proof, sh.t detector.  -- Hemingway
http://scrawlmark.org

Eric Chomko - 28 Sep 2004 20:03 GMT
: > : ...
: > : >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
: >
: > Tell that to the people in Chicago in 1968!!

: I told Gary and Cleveland.
:   Funniest thing about the whole scenario was that the little brown
: monkey friends were burning and looting /their own/ ghettos.

Naw, Dennis isn't a racist...

: > Or in Mississippi in the
: > early 60s...

: "Fust we won deh Rat teh sit at deh lunch countah, an' nen we foun'
: we coon't pay fo' deh MEE-ul.  We needs mo' /Rats/."  -- The Very
: Reverend Jesse Jackson
:   JEE-zuss tol' him teh say dat...

I bet you hate the Lt. Govenor of Maryland, too...

: > :   What part of this do you still not understand after 40 years?
: >
: > Phil Ochs did have a song, "We're the Cops of the World". Surely, you
: > being a product of the era, know who Phil Ochs is, right? Oh, and Ochs'
: > song is 40 years old.

: Actually, I'm not.  I'm the product of parents who prospered in the
: Depression and on both sides of it.

Too bad it doesn't show in your posts.

: > : ...
: >
: > : P.S.:  The U.S. presence in Germany and Japan were definitively
: > : police presenses and definitively defensive.
: >
: > Those two nukes in Japan were a "defensive" move?!?

: Just how prick-sucking illiterate are you, anyway?
:   (This is a Test.  We repeat, this is only a Test.  It cannot be
: passed by little brown monkeys claiming to be Friends.)

When wrong, you go racist. I get it.

: > I used to think that
: > you might be a little confused. No, you are A LOT confused!!!

: By your trying to appear human via words on a Turing screen?
:   Naaah.
:   You're a monk