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Space Forum / Astronomy / August 2004Zero Point Energy Debate II
In a message dated 8/29/2004 1:24:31 PM Central Daylight Time, sarfatti@pacbell.net writes: Hal's Type II model is Rube Goldberg. He takes a short-wavelength cutoff at h/mc which is adhoc. Hal: "Not so. Read Weisskopf. Read Bethe. Read Callen and Welton. Compton frequency is taken to be the cutoff for electron interaction with the vacuum fluctuations." Jack: Of course I have read Weisskopf & Bethe papers on the Lamb shift with the high frequency virtual photon cutoff at h/2mc. I fail to see how choosing that particular cutoff helps your case with EVOS? You seem to be saying, correct me if I am wrong, that the POSITIVE virtual photon ZPF energy density is u(virtual photon) ~ hc(h/mc)^-4 ~ 10^-27 10^10 (10-11)-4 ~ (10^-17)(10^44) ~ 10^27 ergs/cc Yes? No? You next say that the POSITIVE virtual photon pressure is P(virtual photon) ~ (1/3)u(virtual photon) That's a very BIG PRESSURE of course apart from the fact that w = -1 not +1/3 for all virtual quanta of all species. You have ZERO VACUUM COHERENCE here in the sense that I mean it. OK, a typical EVO has an electron shell of radius a ~ 10^-5 - 10^-6 cm says Ken Shoulders. Now you and I both agree that N^1/2(h/mc) ~ a Let's take a ~ 10^-5 cm, h/mc ~ 10^-11 cm Therefore N ~ 10^12 electrons close-packed to make a thin spherical shell 100 nanometers across that is 10^-4 nanometers thick. Right? Yes? No? Are we on the same page here? The electrostatic self energy is U(self-energy) ~ +(Ne)^2/a ~ N^2(1/137)hc/a ~ (10^24)(10^-2)(10^-27)(10^10)(10^5) ~ (10^39)(10-29) ~ 10^10 ergs ~ 1 kilojoule. Now what virtual photon modes are allowed outside the spherical shell, and what modes inside the shell are allowed according to you? The radial outward electrostatic force F is therefore 10^10 ergs/10^-5 cm ~ 10^15 dynes Your EXTRAORDINARY claim is that dP(virtual photon) cancels this radial outward force of ONE THOUSAND TRILLION DYNES! If the only virtual photon modes allowed inside the N-electron shell have wavelengths less than a = 10^-5 cm, then the additional modes outside the shell giving the excess pressure dP(virtual photon) integrate out to energy density ~ hc/a^4 ~ (10-6)^4hc(h/mc)^-4 ~ (10^-24)(10^27) ergs/cc ~ 10^3 ergs per cc. Because the inside of the N-electron shell has all the virtual photon ZPF modes the outside has except for the INFRARED long wave ones than cannot fit inside the shell. This is very small Hal. Where does your cutoff at h/mc even enter into the dP = P(Outside) - P(Inside) > 0 computation? Please explain this mystery. Suppose we make your false assumption that w = +1/3 so that dP ~ 10^3 ergs per cc directed radially inward from the extra OUTSIDE INFRARED LONG WAVE modes. The inward virtual photon radial force is then ~ 10^3(10^-11)^2 ~ 10^-18 dynes that opposes the electrostatic outward radial force of 10^15 dynes. Therefore, Hal your prediction is TOO WEAK BY 33 POWERS OF TEN! As I said, the Casimir force is irrelevant to this problem! OK, if I have done the numbers above WRONG, show us all how to do it right according to your idea! Hal: "This is not cosmology, Jack. This is not general relativity. This is quantum physics." Jack: You are being polemical and hand-waving with transparent sophistry not addressing yourself to the real problem here. You have confused the limits of the large scale FRW metric with the Einstein field equations themselves that hold at all scales - down to at least 10^-33 cm unless G gets large at small scales. Hal: "The math is there. The references are there. Until you're up to speed on the relevant quantum calculations there is nothing more I can help you with with regard to understanding my posting at http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0408114" Jack: Tell that to Cliff Will, Matt Visser and Bill Unruh! ;-) a replaced by u, o replaced by i, knocks out about 80% of the words Sarfatti is a vowel bigot, perfers a and o over the others. (What else to do with this stuff? I know. Ignore it) In u messuge duted 8/29/2004 1:24:31 PM Centrul Duylight Time, surfutti@pucbell.net writes: Hul's Type II midel is Rube Gildberg. He tukes u shirt-wuvelength cutiff ut h/mc which is udhic. Hul: "Nit si. Reud Weisskipf. Reud Bethe. Reud Cullen und Weltin. Cimptin frequency is tuken ti be the cutiff fir electrin inteructiin with the vucuum fluctuutiins." Juck: If ciurse I huve reud Weisskipf & Bethe pupers in the Lumb shift with the high frequency virtuul phitin cutiff ut h/2mc. I fuil ti see hiw chiising thut purticulur cutiff helps yiur cuse with EVIS? Yiu seem ti be suying, cirrect me if I um wring, thut the PISITIVE virtuul phitin ZPF energy density is u(virtuul phitin) ~ hc(h/mc)^-4 ~ 10^-27 10^10 (10-11)-4 ~ (10^-17)(10^44) ~ 10^27 ergs/cc Yes? Ni? Yiu next suy thut the PISITIVE virtuul phitin pressure is P(virtuul phitin) ~ (1/3)u(virtuul phitin) Thut's u very BIG PRESSURE if ciurse upurt frim the fuct thut w = -1 nit +1/3 fir ull virtuul quuntu if ull species. Yiu huve ZERI VUCUUM CIHERENCE here in the sense thut I meun it. IK, u typicul EVI hus un electrin shell if rudius u ~ 10^-5 - 10^-6 cm suys Ken Shiulders. Niw yiu und I bith ugree thut N^1/2(h/mc) ~ u Let's tuke u ~ 10^-5 cm, h/mc ~ 10^-11 cm Therefire N ~ 10^12 electrins clise-pucked ti muke u thin sphericul shell 100 nunimeters ucriss thut is 10^-4 nunimeters thick. Right? Yes? Ni? Ure we in the sume puge here? The electristutic self energy is U(self-energy) ~ +(Ne)^2/u ~ N^2(1/137)hc/u ~ (10^24)(10^-2)(10^-27)(10^10)(10^5) ~ (10^39)(10-29) ~ 10^10 ergs ~ 1 kilijiule. Niw whut virtuul phitin mides ure ulliwed iutside the sphericul shell, und whut mides inside the shell ure ulliwed uccirding ti yiu? The rudiul iutwurd electristutic firce F is therefire 10^10 ergs/10^-5 cm ~ 10^15 dynes Yiur EXTRUIRDINURY cluim is thut dP(virtuul phitin) cuncels this rudiul iutwurd firce if INE THIUSUND TRILLIIN DYNES! If the inly virtuul phitin mides ulliwed inside the N-electrin shell huve wuvelengths less thun u = 10^-5 cm, then the udditiinul mides iutside the shell giving the excess pressure dP(virtuul phitin) integrute iut ti energy density ~ hc/u^4 ~ (10-6)^4hc(h/mc)^-4 ~ (10^-24)(10^27) ergs/cc ~ 10^3 ergs per cc. Becuuse the inside if the N-electrin shell hus ull the virtuul phitin ZPF mides the iutside hus except fir the INFRURED ling wuve ines thun cunnit fit inside the shell. This is very smull Hul. Where dies yiur cutiff ut h/mc even enter inti the dP = P(Iutside) - P(Inside) > 0 cimpututiin? Pleuse expluin this mystery. Suppise we muke yiur fulse ussumptiin thut w = +1/3 si thut dP ~ 10^3 ergs per cc directed rudiully inwurd frim the extru IUTSIDE INFRURED LING WUVE mides. The inwurd virtuul phitin rudiul firce is then ~ 10^3(10^-11)^2 ~ 10^-18 dynes thut ippises the electristutic iutwurd rudiul firce if 10^15 dynes. Therefire, Hul yiur predictiin is TII WEUK BY 33 PIWERS IF TEN! Us I suid, the Cusimir firce is irrelevunt ti this priblem! IK, if I huve dine the numbers ubive WRING, shiw us ull hiw ti di it right uccirding ti yiur ideu! Hul: "This is nit cismiligy, Juck. This is nit generul relutivity. This is quuntum physics." Juck: Yiu ure being pilemicul und hund-wuving with trunspurent siphistry nit uddressing yiurself ti the reul priblem here. Yiu huve cinfused the limits if the lurge scule FRW metric with the Einstein field equutiins themselves thut hild ut ull scules - diwn ti ut leust 10^-33 cm unless G gets lurge ut smull scules. Hul: "The muth is there. The references ure there. Until yiu're up ti speed in the relevunt quuntum culculutiins there is nithing mire I cun help yiu with with regurd ti understunding my pisting ut http://urxiv.irg/ubs/physics/0408114" Juck: Tell thut ti Cliff Will, Mutt Visser und Bill Unruh! ;-) > a replaced by u, o replaced by i, knocks out about 80% of the words > Sarfatti is a vowel bigot, perfers a and o over the others. > (What else to do with this stuff? I know. Ignore it) Sarfatti tutti frutti is a well-known crank. |
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