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Where does Einsteiniana lead the zombie world into?

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Pentcho Valev - 26 Jul 2008 10:07 GMT
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-susskind26-2008jul26,0,797
8363.story

Leonard Susskind: "So the question is, What happens to the information
trapped in the black hole? Stephen said it was lost forever. Stephen
didn't just say it, he proved it. At least he convinced himself and
everybody else mathematically that it was true. It violates one of the
fundamental principles of physics, which says nothing is ever lost
completely. You may say, "How can you say information isn't lost? I
can erase information on my computer." But every time a bit of
information is erased, we know it doesn't disappear. It goes out into
the environment. It may be horribly scrambled and confused, but it
never really gets lost. It's just converted into a different
form.....One result is something called Black Hole Complementarity.
Let's say Alice falls into a black hole while Bob stays on the outside
and watches. Nothing drastic happens to her when she crosses the event
horizon [the point of no return around a black hole]. Of course she's
eventually going to get it. On the other hand, there is another
picture of the black hole, where every bit of information that you
throw onto the horizon of a black hole gets sort of stuck on the
horizon and builds up a soup of information bits. And this soup is
hot, about a 100 billion billion billion degrees. We have a dilemma.
One theory, based on general relativity, simply says Alice just floats
past the horizon. That would be Alice's view of things. But Bob's view
of things, if he believes in quantum mechanics, is that Alice falls
into this soup of hot bits and her molecules are ripped apart. So,
which one is correct? Alice can't both be killed at the horizon and
not killed at the horizon. The answer is they are both correct. These
two ideas are not in conflict because to be in conflict, there has to
be a contradiction. Well, nobody can see a contradiction for the
simple reason that nobody can send a message from the inside of a
black hole. Alice can't send a message saying, "Bob, I'm OK, don't
worry about me," because the message can't get out of the black hole.
Yet everything Bob sees is consistent with saying that Alice was
thermalized. We've had these things before in Einstein's thought
experiments. Einstein, in the special theory of relativity, proved
that different observers, in different states of motion, see different
realities."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jul/26/healthandwellbeing2
"American psyche. Everyone thinks that Einstein was so smart. Let's
examine this. What was his big contribution? Everyone knows that: the
theory of relativity. This theory states that, when moving near the
speed of light, everything is related. For example: say your uncle is
moving at the speed of light. Then he is also my uncle. Also, our
uncle, moving faster than the speed of light, becomes smaller and goes
slightly back in time, to the moment just before he accelerated past
the speed of light, at which time he goes back to his regular size.
This can be a good or a bad thing, depending on the original size of
one's uncle. The other theory Einstein developed was Heisenberg's
Uncertainty Principle, which stated that Einstein felt unsure about
Heisenberg. Heisenberg responded with his famous Einstein's Annoying
Theory, which stated that Heisenberg found Einstein hard to take. Some
believe their dispute originated when Einstein tricked Heisenberg into
travelling faster than the speed of light, thus decreasing
Heisenberg's mass - and Heisenberg was already quite small. After
Heisenberg came back from travelling at the speed of light, Einstein
could hold him in one hand. And often did, to Heisenberg's
consternation, causing Einstein to formulate his Heisenberg's
Consternated Theorum. But history proved Einstein wrong, since there
is no such word as "consternated". The idea that mass decreases as one
approaches the speed of light is compelling, especially for dieters.
It implies that one way to lose weight is to run, briefly, at the
speed of light. As stated above, the downside is one will also go back
in time. So you'll be lighter, but may find yourself in the 1400s,
when everyone was lighter, due to malnutrition, and no one will even
notice you've lost weight. Also, due to your modern clothes, you'll
probably be declared a witch and burned at the stake. On the bright
side, post-burning, you'll achieve your lowest body weight. Einstein
once explained relativity like this: "If you're sitting on a hot stove
for even a minute, it will seem like an eternity; but if you're
sitting on a hot stove with a pretty girl, your a.s will burst into
flames and not a girl in the world will seem pretty. Trust me, I've
tried it." Part of Einstein's mystique was his tendency to wander
around completely lost, hair sticking up, playing the violin.
Heisenberg tried this but was too small, well-organised and balding,
so ended up with neat hair, dragging his violin behind him, sure where
he was. And hence Einstein is remembered as the greater genius."

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
hwabnig@ .- --- -. dotat - 26 Jul 2008 15:36 GMT
>Where does Einsteiniana lead the zombie world into?

Shift key defect?

w.
Pentcho Valev - 28 Jul 2008 20:20 GMT
21st century science:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/07/28/warp-speed-engine.html
"It is possible to travel faster than light. You just wouldn't travel
faster than light. Seems strange, but by manipulating extra dimensions
with astronomical amounts of energy, two Baylor University physicists
have outlined how a faster-than-light engine, or warp drive, could be
created that would bend but not break the laws of physics. "We think
we can create an effective warp drive, based on general relatively and
string theory," said Gerald Cleaver, coauthor of the paper....The warp
engine is based on a design first proposed in1994 by Michael
Alcubierre. The Alcubierre drive, as it's known, involves expanding
the fabric of space behind a ship into a bubble and shrinking space-
time in front of the ship. The ship would rest in between the
expanding and shrinking space-time, essentially surfing down the side
of the bubble. The tricky part is that the ship wouldn't actually
move; space itself would move underneath the stationary spacecraft. A
beam of light next to the ship would still zoom away, same as it
always does, but a beam of light far from the ship would be left
behind. That means that the ship would arrive at its destination
faster than a beam of light traveling the same distance, but without
violating Einstein's relativity, which says that it would take an
infinite amount of energy to accelerate an object with mass to the
speed of light, since the ship itself isn't actually moving...." etc.

Einsteinians, what are you doing?

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
kduc - 28 Jul 2008 20:23 GMT
Pentcho Valev a écrit :
> 21st century science:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Pentcho Valev
> pvalev@yahoo.com

http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/valevfaq.htm

Signature

kd

Pentcho Valev - 29 Jul 2008 20:22 GMT
On Jul 28, 9:20 pm, Pentcho Valev <pva...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 21st century science:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Einsteinians, what are you doing?

http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/blackholes.asp
Lord Martin Rees, President of the Royal Society: "Good science
fiction should respect the fundamental constraints of physical law. In
that sprit, it is worth mentioning that an observer could, in
principle, observe the far future in what, subjectively, seemed quiet
a short time. According to Einstein, the speed of a clock depends on
where you are and how you're moving. If your subjective clock ran very
slowly compared to the cosmic clock, you could travel "fast forward"
into the future. This would happen if you were moving at a velocity
close to the speed of light. Furthermore, strong gravity would distort
time; clocks on a neutron star would run 20 or 30 percent slower. Near
a black hole, the distortions would be even greater. If you were to
fall into one, your future would be finite; you would be ripped apart
- spaghettified - by ever more violent gravitational forces. However,
a more prudent astronaut who managed to get into the closest possible
orbit around a rapidly spinning hole without falling into it would
also have interesting experiences, space-time is so distorted there
that his clock would run arbitrarily slow and he could, therefore, in
a subjectively short period, view an immensely long future timespan in
the external universe."

What are you doing, Einsteinians?

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 29 Jul 2008 21:00 GMT
> http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/blackholes.asp
[snip]

I do not undertand what is the point in the text you quote.
You refered to a string theory think => I mention that string theory
uses a group which is an extension of Lorentz and ask if you
implicitly means that Lorentz is the good one in flat space.

I think that my question can be answered by "yes" or "no".

Laurent
moky - 28 Jul 2008 21:00 GMT
"We think we can create an effective warp drive, based on general
relatively and string theory,"

Ow ...String theory is not Gallilean, but mainly conformal. The
conform group is an extension of the *Lorentz* group. Conformality is
(one of) the reasons for which string theory asks for extra-
dimensions.
So, even if that article was true, it confirms Lorentz in the flat
case.

So, can I interpret your reference as, implicitlly, your definitive
answer
"Yes, Lorentz is correct in the flat case."
?

Have a good night
Laurent
Spaceman - 28 Jul 2008 21:46 GMT
> 21st century science:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Einsteinians, what are you doing?

They are using multiple standards for time and distance.
They are also using "curved straight lines".
No wonder they can come up with all this crap.!
LOL

Signature

James M Driscoll Jr
Creator of the Clock Malfunction Theory
Spaceman

moky - 26 Jul 2008 16:14 GMT
Yep, but when one begins to ask you PRECISELY where is the problem,
you give up.
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/dcb5ccb45525e
0ac/3e8d684e9b8d7306?hl=fr
&
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/3f176de9c1bb8
1ab/298c07d03bfd85ca?show_docid=298c07d03bfd85ca
&
Pentcho Valev - 26 Jul 2008 17:01 GMT
> Yep, but when one begins to ask you PRECISELY where is the problem,
> you give up.
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/dcb5ccb45525e
0ac/3e8d684e9b8d7306?hl=fr
&
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/3f176de9c1bb8
1ab/298c07d03bfd85ca?show_docid=298c07d03bfd85ca
&

Usually I don't but in this case yes, I gave up. Both anti-relativists
and (clever) relativists agree that the speed of light is VARIABLE in
a gravitational field. So if you disagree you should first discuss the
problem with your masters, not with me.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 26 Jul 2008 18:57 GMT
> Usually I don't but in this case yes, I gave up. Both anti-relativists
> and (clever) relativists agree that the speed of light is VARIABLE in
> a gravitational field. So if you disagree you should first discuss the
> problem with your masters, not with me.

It is not the point.
* YOU spontaneously promised a "simple derivation" of Einstein-1911.
You did not even promised it to me. You gave up when I pointed that
your proof was not complete.

* Even in the non-gravitational case, you gave up when I asked you if
the Lorentz group is the good one. That point has nothing to do with
variation of light speed in a gravitational field.

Sorry, but when you makes a claim on a forum, you have to be able to
prove it on the forum, or give a clear reference.

Laurent
Pentcho Valev - 26 Jul 2008 19:20 GMT
> > Usually I don't but in this case yes, I gave up. Both anti-relativists
> > and (clever) relativists agree that the speed of light is VARIABLE in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Laurent

In physics proofs involve implicit common sense considerations that
clever people make without discussion. Your idea that the speed of
light remains constant in a gravitational field has the following
implication:

"the wavelength varies with position"

which is idiotic. No formal proof is possible and yet the implication
is idiotic. Clever Einsteinians know that and so your idea will find
no support even within Einsteiniana.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 26 Jul 2008 21:26 GMT
> > It is not the point.
> > * YOU spontaneously promised a "simple derivation" of Einstein-1911.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> which is idiotic. No formal proof is possible and yet the implication
> is idiotic.

I however gave a proof of anti-Einstien-1911. Where is the fault ?
By the way, it does not provides a proof of your statement.

Ow ... I understand. You feel free to not provide proofs of your
statements just because they result from "implicit common sense
considerations that clever people make without discussion" ?

I already said, and I re-say  : I am *not* good in general relativity.
This is why I prefer feel secure and look at equations.
If you are better than me (which is the case, since you feel free to
not only rely on equations), please take my level. This is the basics
of politeness on a discussion group : when someone is weaker than you,
you speak at his level.

>Your idea that the speed of
> light remains constant in a gravitational field has the following
> implication:

You, once again, forgot to answer : in the non-gravitational case, is
Lorentz the good group ?

Laurent
Pentcho Valev - 26 Jul 2008 21:59 GMT
> > > It is not the point.
> > > * YOU spontaneously promised a "simple derivation" of Einstein-1911.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> You, once again, forgot to answer : in the non-gravitational case, is
> Lorentz the good group ?

Again physical intuition is essential in this case. If your assumption
is that, in a gravitational field, an observer at rest relative to the
light source measures the speed of light to be c'=c(1+V/c^2), in
accordance with Einstein's 1911 equation, then you rigorously deduce
that, in the absence of a gravitational field, an ACCELERATED observer
will measure c'=c+v, where v is the speed of the light source (at the
moment of emission) relative to the observer (at the moment of
reception). Einsteinians without physical intuition immediately
declare: "Aha! The observer is accelerated and therefore Divine
Albert's Divine Special Relativity and more precisely Lorentz
transformations remain valid forever!" However Einsteinians WITH
physical intuition know that this is not exactly the case.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 26 Jul 2008 22:23 GMT
>If your assumption
> is that, in a gravitational field, an observer at rest relative to the
> light source measures the speed of light to be c'=c(1+V/c^2), in
> accordance with Einstein's 1911 equation,
[snip]

I have no assumptions of that kind. My assumptions are
* equivalence principle
* Lorentz between observers who are related by an uniform translation
motion. (or, more precisely, between observer who are both in free
fall ... I should check)

Formula c'=c(1+V/c^2) has to be deduced from these assumptions,
right ?.
Once again, I recall that you pretended to give a proof of that
formula ... so I do not understand why you, now, consider it as an
assumption ...

> then you rigorously deduce
> that, in the absence of a gravitational field, an ACCELERATED observer
> will measure c'=c+v, where v is the speed of the light source (at the
> moment of emission) relative to the observer (at the moment of
> reception).

>Einsteinians without physical intuition immediately
> declare: "Aha! The observer is accelerated and therefore Divine
> Albert's Divine Special Relativity and more precisely Lorentz
> transformations remain valid forever!" However Einsteinians WITH
> physical intuition know that this is not exactly the case.

You, once again, forgot to answer : in the non-gravitational case, is
Lorentz the good group ?

By the way : nobody sing "Divine Einstein". There are no cult of
him ... at least in none of the physics department I went. Everybody
knows that he was completely wrong at least about cosmological
constant and quantum mechanics. I think that you are confusing an
experimental result (Lorentz is the good group) with a sociological
phenomenon (Einstein is very good) that you amplifies to the absurd.

Have a good night
Laurent
Pentcho Valev - 26 Jul 2008 22:36 GMT
> >If your assumption
> > is that, in a gravitational field, an observer at rest relative to the
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> knows that he was completely wrong at least about cosmological
> constant and quantum mechanics.

That's good news. What do they think about Einstein's 1905 light
postulate:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
ON THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MOVING BODIES By A. Einstein, June 30, 1905
"....light is always propagated in empty space with a definite
velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting
body."

Why don't you ask all those who already know that "he was completely
wrong at least about cosmological constant and quantum mechanics"?

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 26 Jul 2008 23:20 GMT
>That's good news

Don't say me that it is a "news" : you perfectly knew that. Everybody
who read two lines of general relativity knows that Einstein declared
that the cosmological constant was the biggest error of hos live.
(incidently, saying that, he is again wrong because the cosmological
constant revealed, much later, to exists)

> Why don't you ask all those who already know that "he was completely
> wrong at least about cosmological constant and quantum mechanics"?

Because THEY did not wrote on 10 forums that
> (A) c' = c(1 + V/c^2)
> [snip]
>Equation A has a simple derivation.
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/3f176de9c1bb8
1ab/298c07d03bfd85ca?show_docid=298c07d03bfd85ca
&

YOU said that, thus YOU gives the derivation.

On the other hand,  YOU said that

>> 3. je t'ai cité une dizaine de faits expérimentaux qui plaident pour
>> Lorentz. Montre moi qu'ils sont faux ou mal interprétés; et commence
>> par clairement lister ceux que tu ne souhaites pas commenter parce que
>> tu ne les connais pas.
>Commenter des expériences que je ne connais pas? Pas mal. Je te
donne  la victoire.
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/dcb5ccb45525e
0ac/ace3f6ad6bca7a1f?hl=fr
&

Thus, YOU have to explain how you still claim that Gallilée is correct
in the non-gravitation case.

I do not have to ask someone else to bring justifications of what YOU
say on a forum, isn't ?

Have a good night
Laurent
Pentcho Valev - 27 Jul 2008 00:08 GMT
> >That's good news
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> YOU said that, thus YOU gives the derivation.

No this cannot go on forever. For the last time: the derivation gives
either Einstein 1911: variable speed of light and constant wavelength,
or anti-Einstein 1911: constant speed of light and variable
wavelength. Elsewhere I explained that anti-Einstein 1911 is
(physically) inconsistent with light bending (see chapter 22 in
Einstein's "Relativity") and, in addition, "wavelength varies with
position" is absurd per se. If that is not enough, again: victory is
yours, you will become a great boss in Einsteiniana and please don't
waste my time and energy anymore.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 27 Jul 2008 01:31 GMT
> No this cannot go on forever. For the last time: the derivation gives
> either Einstein 1911 variable speed of light and constant wavelength,
> or anti-Einstein 1911: constant speed of light and variable
> wavelength.

It is not even true : the derivation you gave produces infinitely many
solutions. The two you are speaking about are only two out of them.
You have to find a new principle in order to decide.
Out of the infinitely many solutions, there are a lot that are so
close to (anti)-Einstein-1911 that you cannot experimentally
distinguish. How to rule out them ?

>Elsewhere I explained that anti-Einstein 1911 is
> (physically) inconsistent with light bending

Just give me the link; I cannot read everything that an automatic
research gives me with the keyword "Pentcho Valev".

Once again, you forgot to answer for the non-gravitational case. Are
Lorentz's transformations correct in that case ?
You always "answer" on the gravitational issue while we were, in fact,
very close to a conclusion at least in the case without gravitation.

Good night
Laurent
Pentcho Valev - 27 Jul 2008 11:33 GMT
> > No this cannot go on forever. For the last time: the derivation gives
> > either Einstein 1911 variable speed of light and constant wavelength,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> You always "answer" on the gravitational issue while we were, in fact,
> very close to a conclusion at least in the case without gravitation.

In Einstein zombie world where Lorentz has replaced Galileo scientists
are paid for teaching how long trains can be trapped inside short
tunnels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY&mode=related&search=

Other scientists are paid for always reopening the doors of the barn
"pretty quickly" in order to avoid contradiction in their science:

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/barn_pole.html
"These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors
at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a
switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in
the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an
instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you
close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open
them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the
contracted pole shut up in your barn."

In the world where Lorentz has replaced Galileo the bug is both dead
and alive:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Relativ/bugrivet.html

but nobody cares because nothing can be idiotic in Einstein zombie
world by definition.

In the world where Lorentz has replaced Galileo time dilation is
reciprocal (either observer sees the other's clock running slow) but
when one observer is at rest and the other moves along some closed
path, both observers see the observer at rest's clock running FAST.
Divine Albert teaches his zombies that both reciprocal time dilation
and non-reciprocal time dilation gloriously follow from Lorentz
transformations:

http://www.bartleby.com/173/23.html

So I do not want to live in the world where Lorentz has replaced
Galileo but I suspect that you feel very comfortable in it don't you.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
moky - 27 Jul 2008 12:56 GMT
>Elsewhere I explained that anti-Einstein 1911 is
> (physically) inconsistent with light bending

Just say me where is "elsewhere", and/or show me a mystake in my
derivation of anti-Einstein-1911

About your Lorentz dissertation, do not forget the following:

>* les particules ont un spin (ce qui suggère SL(2,C) comme groupe de
> symétrie)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> * Le temps de vie plus long des particules dans les accélérateurs
> qu'au repos
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/3f176de9c1bb8
1ab/298c07d03bfd85ca?show_docid=298c07d03bfd85ca
&

What you say are only counter-intuitive features of Lorentz. What I
say are FACTS. Everybody would like to consider Gallilée, but nature
did not ask our opinion before to exist.
Show how  these FACTS are embed in the Gallilée group ... and do it in
such a way to remain coherent with yourself :

>Commenter des expériences que je ne connais pas? Pas mal. Je te donne
> la victoire.
http://groups.google.fr/group/fr.sci.physique/browse_thread/thread/dcb5ccb45525e
0ac/ace3f6ad6bca7a1f?hl=fr
&
 
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