Help end wage-slavery
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Andrew Usher - 12 Jul 2008 09:59 GMT I propose the basic income, also known as the guaranteed minimum income or negative income tax, for modern civilised society. This entails that every person would receive a fixed payment from the government, which is enough to maintain oneself without working. I further maintain that this is only practical with a system of true national health care, as, for one, persons with significant medical expenses could not rely on the basic income otherwise.
How should it work?
I will refer only to the USA in the rest of this essay, though it applies to every comparable nation. The basic income would be paid out by the federal government to everyone, and would replace all current welfare and redistribution programs (federal, state, and local) with possibly a few minor exceptions. Similarly the universal health care that accompanies it would replace all current provisions for health care; as these combined form about half of all government spending, their obsolescence would free a considerable amount of money.
The benefit could be paid based on individuals or based on households. In my mind, only payment based on individuals would be acceptable. First, there is the rampant fraud likely to arise if done the other way; this already exists with current welfare programs, and would be much worse if applied to the entire population. Second (and related), the costs of managing the program would be much lower for an individual income as the means to count every person exactly once already exist. It may be objected that this provides an incentive for persons to live in fewer households, but this is no different from the situation now: in both cases, one financially benefits from living with other persons as the fixed costs do not scale with number of persons. Although I do not like that it is an issue of housing availability and not money per se.
Persons in prison or another involuntary institution should be excluded, but should begin to receive it again immediately upon their release.
The amount of the benefit
It is necessary to propose a monetary amount for the benefit. I say $1,500 per month, plus $200 for each dependent child. This benefit would for obvious reasons have to be limited to citizens, or perhaps citizens and legal permanent residents.
My benefit of $200 per child seems low. However, I realise that to avoid encouraging high fertility, the amount must be less than the minimum reasonable cost of raising a child. Also, as it may be assumed that persons relying on the basic income are not working, it is unnecessary to account for regular child care; likewise, as health care will be free I do not need to include that, either.
Another issue is that I do not vary the amount with place of residence, while everyone knows that some places have a significantly higher cost of living than others. I answer that the reason such places do have such a high cost of living is the high demand to live there, and that varying the basic income by place of residence will only drive that demand higher, thus further increasing the cost. The only way to partially equalise these differences is to encourage more housing developement in high-cost areas, bringing the price of housing down there.
The amount would of course be automatically indexed to the cost of living.
Paying for it
Concrete proposals for a basic income usually include a flat income tax (hence the term negative income tax - the benefit can be thought of as a flat tax minus the benefit amount). I concur. With a flat tax, it makes no difference if it is figured by individuals or married couples, so I will do it by individuals to match the benefit. My tax would have no exceptions, and go from 30% up to 70%, with most ordinary people in the 30% bracket and the very rich in the 70%. This would apply only to earned income (wages, salaries, and other compensation for work performed). Investment income would be capped at 30% to avoid disadvantaging investing, and punishing people for living on investment income.
Likewise, the corporate income tax, though it can not be made exactly flat, would be made far more so, at 30 or 40%, greatly increasing revenue; this is only restoring it to where it was in the 1950s.
Considering the amount of the benefit named above, the federal government's revenue would have to approximately double to pay it. The taxes above would go a long way toward that, and others could make up the difference. The most important figure is the proportion of total GDP; my benefit would be approximately 38% of current GDP, which is not out of bounds for goverment revenue.
The basic law of the basic income
The basic income would surely decrease the amount of work performed. Many people would choose to not work at all, or to work only part-time, rather than a conventional job. Hence we may be certain that the average income would fall. This should not be a large effect, as soon employers would adjust to the new conditions, but it will exist. If the average income falls, while the worst-off become better off, it can only be by decreasing the income of the rich. Indeed this will occur, by means of the taxes I propose, as well as the fact that businesses will have less to spend on salaries.
Automation
Though the essential argument does not depend on it, many thinkers have proposed that the basic income is essential to implement because of automation. This may be.
I have a different argument, though: that the possibility of automating many jobs will dramatically reduce the impact of the basic income of national production. As the effective cost of unskilled labor rises, the incentive to automate jobs that have not been automated increases. For example, I just observed, when making a doctor's appointment, that that could be entirely automated given what it now entails - of course, in this particular case, a national health-care system would allow it to be done easily.
The basic income also reduces the impact of further automation on the economy, as workers that lose their jobs face no risk of starving and can take ample time to train for a new career if desired. And as I know that most jobs can be largely automated, I would not be surprised if, say, 30-50 years after implementing a basic income less than 20% of adults were working a normal job, calculated as full-time equivalents.
Therefore, this plan allows us to choose, individually, whether to take productivity increases as more leisure or more money. This is another way in which the basic income increases freedom.
Is it a form of communism?
If we consider the goal of communism to provide everyone a decent living, then we can say the basic income has the same goal. But nonetheless, it does not have the deficiencies of Marxist government.
First, it does not give any more power to the government. To the contrary, government will have less power if anything.
Second, it does not try to abolish money. It is true that the world once ran without money, but the trend throughout history has been to put more and more on a money basis. It is today impossible to live even a short time without money in some form. The basic income accepts this.
Third, it has no ideological component beyond the basic idea. I'm sure everyone knows that governments having an ideological basis become tyrannical because of their need to suppress dissent. This includes, of course, all historical communist governments.
Its effect on crime and criminals
I do not know for certain what impact it will have upon crime. However, I surmise that crime will be reduced overall. As no one would feel the need to turn to crime for a living, it would become a less attractive option. This applies especially to men getting out of prison, who now often feel unable to get reasonable work again and therefore want to go back to the criminal world.
Some crimes, of course, are unrelated to money, but I can not believe there would be any substantial rise in their incidence. I am somewhat concerned that the law would create more 'idle hands', but know that reducing the overall level of crime would allow us to focus more on eliminating the criminal subcultures that remain.
An end to wage-slavery
But all this is surpassed, of course, by the most pointed reason for the basic income; namely, to reduce the disparity of power between employer and employee. No longer would the boss be able to rely on employees' willingness to do anything to avoid termination, for no one would have to fear his life reaching a crisis due to job loss. It is true that the rich would nonetheless have a significant reduction in income, but they tend to be treated better by their employers anyway, and also likely have savings sufficient to make temporary loss of work less traumatic (As well, many weathly couples have two incomes; I will not cite that as a primary reasons because I am focusing only on individuals in this paper.)
Ironically, this scourge, created by this existence of money, will be ended by money.
Andrew Usher
joe - 12 Jul 2008 12:41 GMT > I propose the basic income, also known as the guaranteed minimum > income or negative income tax, for modern civilised society. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > persons with significant medical expenses could not rely > on the basic income otherwise. ...
IMO this makes very much sense. I support the idea, and I think it will come. Some countries are already using a similar system. The classical retirement pension system in these countries has already collapsed because of the shifting age-structure (shift of the population age pyramid...)
Socialism is the unavoidable final state of the capitalist system, that's like elementary maths.
And many people, incl. me, are no more interessted in any dumb "career" sh.t, where you get used by the bosses and lose your individuality and personality, running like a slave of them. I personally want to do and live how I want, not how others, or how the society wants or dictates it.
In a modern civilised society the most basic needs of individuals should be guaranteed by the state, regulated by law; incl. education, housing, food and medicare. It should be the individuums own decision what he/she wants to do beyond this. Currently there is a dictate by the state and society for "going to work", applying for non-existent jobs etc... In future there will be even much more "non-existent" jobs, and they can't hide it any longer...
You should write a book about this all...
Andrew Usher - 12 Jul 2008 12:52 GMT How does this affect men's rights?
The essential difference between the opportunities afforded to the sexes at present is that women can normally rely on a man to support them, if need be, and thus need not work, and most men must.
Therefore, the basic income, alone, would be a great step forward for men. But there is more: with an income assured to all, the justification for alimony and child support disappears. It would be reasonable, then, to completely abolish them upon its implementation. But if not, at least to protect the basic income from any awards.
How does this affect youth rights?
A few weeks ago, I wrote an essay, which is here
http://www.youthrights.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14961
proposing that the age of majority be made 15, and outlining a plan to secure adult rights to young people (i.e. 15-20 years old). Since the basic income would be paid to all adults, that would necessarily entail that that be given to all those 15 and over (instead of 18 as at present).
Regardless of whether the age is 15, 18, 21, or otherwise, the plan would surely cause more young people choosing to leave home shortly after that age, simply because that would not require employment. It does not seem that having the age 15 is much worse, even if one considers this a bad thing.
Note that although many people in the youth rights movement say that there should be no age of majority, it is plainly ridiculous to not have a threshold age for the basic income, and paying it upon birth would (as discussed above) become a huge reward for having children, which can not be tolerated.
Andrew Usher
Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato - 12 Jul 2008 13:30 GMT Economists and rich people everywhere will criticize this and probably try to kill you.
Here's an interesting question. When we finally have enough robots and automation to do "all" of the work, what will people do with themselves ?
Ultimately, man must transition from being primarily a producer of tangible goods into a producer of intangible goods. Can that transformation take place without millions of people dieing in the process ?
I'm all for it.
galathaea - 12 Jul 2008 17:51 GMT On Jul 12, 7:30 am, Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato <huangxienc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Economists and rich people everywhere will criticize this and probably > try to kill you. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I'm all for it. vonnegut's "player piano" has a particularly interesting take on this
it's also one of the earlier references to what today might be described as industrial music though vertov's notes for the silent "man with a movie camera" also give play to some of the same ideas
but as the buddhists pointed out years ago every living being has a burden just for being alive and we haven't built the robots to automate this yet
until then suggestions like the op's would only halt the economy stop food supplies and cause mass starvation corrode the power grid (which requires constant maintenance) and push us back to primitivism
if this was cost effective today it would be done naturally since having infallible workers for 24-hour-a-day shifts is certainly desirable by rich industrialists but it requires significant investment and recurring costs and does not reduce manpower significantly due to maintenance
it's only effect would be to bankrupt the economy
collective goals to reduce the burden of living is noble but they must take an approach founded in the dynamics they attempt to alter
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar
Huang - 12 Jul 2008 19:00 GMT > On Jul 12, 7:30 am, Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar I applaud him for thinking about such things, but the world aint ready for it yet.
A completely artificial economy simply is not an economy. You need free market processes, it makes much more sense to tear down the barriers which block capitalism here in the US.
Question for the OP - - Have you ever even tried to start up a business ? If you are in the US, you will notice a couple things right away. #1, you wont get any help from anyone, especially if you are just starting out. You will have to comply with an endless list of zoning, licensing, permits, vetting, and an infinite list of other stupid things.
The people who succeed are those who can fly under the radar somehow, and THEN you need to find your customers and take care of them.
But the number of roadblocks which were put in place by the government makes it VERY difficult for someone who was born here to start a business. It is much easier if you come here from a different country because there are people here (in government) who will help you get up and running. The other alternative is to just move to Mexico, start up a business there, and sell all of your crap here in this country.
Local governments dont really care if you are creating jobs or not. Call them and tell them you want to open a business and create jobs. They will probably hang up on you. Dont believe me ? Make the phone call. They simply dont give a sh.t about anything beyond their own supersized paychecks. And yes, I speak from experience.
People in government will kick sand in your face because US citizenship has NO VALUE in their eyes. The only thing that they have any respect for is $$$$$$$$. Get it ? So either get your a.s out there and vote the motherf..kers out of office, or suck it up and waste your right to vote by being a sap. What you need to do is "cooperate" with your fellow citizens to use your power to vote collectively like a big flyswatter, and when you get an insect in a place of power you need to SWAT HIM LIKE A ROACH.
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 00:18 GMT > A completely artificial economy simply is not an economy. You need > free market processes, it makes much more sense to tear down the > barriers which block capitalism here in the US. I would be all in favor of removing such barriers, but I'm trying to focus one one point at a time.
What you complain of is a politcally difficult issue because most people aren't aware of it, and those that are may well have an interest in the current system.
Andrew Usher
prandr@webtv.net - 13 Jul 2008 21:58 GMT IF this is ASTRONOMY,make mine VANILLA.
BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT. JUNG
Androcles - 13 Jul 2008 23:11 GMT | IF this is ASTRONOMY,make mine VANILLA. | | BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT. | JUNG *plonk* And plonk your god too, you f.cking idiot.
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 00:11 GMT On Jul 12, 6:30 am, Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato <huangxienc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Economists and rich people everywhere will criticize this and probably > try to kill you. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > transformation take place without millions of people dieing in the > process ? As far as the psychological factors, I don't know. I'm sure we'll have to find a way.
My plan only ensures that the economy will not suffer a crisis due to this - that's the extent of my competence, I don't think anyone can really plan out how people should live.
Andrew Usher
jmfbahciv - 13 Jul 2008 13:34 GMT > On Jul 12, 6:30 am, Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato > <huangxienc...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > My plan only ensures that the economy will not suffer a crisis due > to this - Right. It will be completely destroyed.
>that's the extent of my competence, I don't think anyone > can really plan out how people should live. But your writeup has everybody becoming poor and loving it.
/BAH
> Andrew Usher Andrew Usher - 18 Jul 2008 20:05 GMT > > My plan only ensures that the economy will not suffer a crisis due > > to this - > > Right. It will be completely destroyed. And what would be the alternative?
> >that's the extent of my competence, I don't think anyone > > can really plan out how people should live. > > But your writeup has everybody becoming poor and loving it. What does 'poor' mean here? My plan would prevent anyone from being really poor.
Andrew Usher
prandr@webtv.net - 13 Jul 2008 21:55 GMT Astronomy ? Like H--l
BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT. JUNG
Viking - 14 Jul 2008 16:14 GMT >Economists and rich people everywhere will criticize this and probably >try to kill you. > >Here's an interesting question. When we finally have enough robots and >automation to do "all" of the work, what will people do with >themselves ? Starve. It's the people who OWN the robots that will prosper.
Uncle Al - 12 Jul 2008 16:54 GMT > I propose the basic income, also known as the guaranteed minimum > income > or negative income tax, for modern civilised society. This entails > that > every person would receive a fixed payment from the government, [snip high school fabulist crap]
If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot award people what it first has not stolen from them. What one man receives without effort is confiscated from another who labors.
1) Do not penalize the productive. 2) Do not reward the unproductive. 3) Bottom line: Do NOTHING - no social engineering. 4) All economic problems will solve themselves within 90 days. 5) The alternative is mathematically inevitable utter ruin,
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/comprom.htm
We are from the government. We are here to help ourselves to you. We have come for a piece of all mankind.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 00:14 GMT > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > We are from the government. We are here to help ourselves to you. We > have come for a piece of all mankind. This isn't an argument and I'm well out of high school. Your 'plan' is nothing.
Andrew Usher
Uncle Al - 13 Jul 2008 01:10 GMT > > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > This isn't an argument and I'm well out of high school. > Your 'plan' is nothing. That's right, nothing. No government interference except for the big things like national defense and currency - then, good and hard. The indigent will not starve less State-mandated charity. They will work or starve. That's a good choice. That is always the best choice throughout history. If you cannot afford medical care you die, or medical care recouples price and cost. Hey homie, don't get shot or stabbed in a gang turf war without a bankroll.
Entered Parris Island you could march out a Marine, be imprisoned with hard labor, or be carried out in a box. Most chose the hard way. Now the Crucible is scaled down for big-a.s Marines. The US deserves to die.
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 01:40 GMT > > > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > > > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > medical care recouples price and cost. Hey homie, don't get shot or > stabbed in a gang turf war without a bankroll. Uncle Al should be thanked for demonstrating what is only implicit in the arguments of most libertarians: namely, that libertarianism isn't really an ideology at all, it has no intellectual argument behind it, it is simply force in the service of the corporate slave-masters, lies to persuade the proles that they're really good for us. Hence it deserves zero credibility.
Why do libertarians think this way? It is because they fantasise they they are such special people that they would 'make it' in any social system, so no matter what help they needed to get where they are, they can rationalise that as irrelevant.
Andrew Usher
pnachtwey - 13 Jul 2008 03:00 GMT > > > > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > > > > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > the proles that they're really good for us. Hence it deserves > zero credibility. This is where you lose all credibility. You would be free to work for yourself, others or starve. You would enslave others to feed you or use a proxy government force other to feed you.
> Why do libertarians think this way? Because we are not ants.
Peter Nachtwey
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 03:15 GMT > > Uncle Al should be thanked for demonstrating what is only > > implicit in the arguments of most libertarians: namely, that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > yourself, others or starve. You would enslave others to feed you or > use a proxy government force other to feed you. This is so far off the mark I don't know how to answer it.
People like you (assuming you're honest) were not attracted to libertarianism by reason. No, you were attracted because it gave a simple solution to the fact that you haven't achieved as much as you would like: it's the government! Like all cults, libertarianism functions by giving the believer someone to hate.
And it is a general rule that you can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself in to.
> > Why do libertarians think this way? > > Because we are not ants. Wow, that's a pretty big non sequitur!
I see you snipped my actual explanation. No doubt: you can't admit its truth.
A better one-sentence explanation would be 'Because we are hypocrites.' - just like your HERO Ayn Rand who never did any honest work in her life!
Andrew Usher
pnachtwey - 13 Jul 2008 21:16 GMT If you don't want to be a wage slave you are free to get your own company. Leave us alone. Can't you see it is you that is trying to force your will on everyone else?
Peter Nachtwey
prandr@webtv.net - 13 Jul 2008 11:09 GMT Is this a GROUP on ASTRONOMY or POLITICS?
BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT. JUNG
Androcles - 13 Jul 2008 12:38 GMT | Is this a GROUP on ASTRONOMY or POLITICS? | | BIDDEN OR UNBIDDEN,GOD IS PRESENT. | JUNG Is this group about religion? You are unbidden. f.ck off.
Bill Penrose - 13 Jul 2008 23:12 GMT > Why do libertarians think this way? It is because they > fantasise they they are such special people that they > would 'make it' in any social system, The economics theory journal Mad Magazine once put it, "He never knew how many people it takes to make one self-made man."
Dangerous Bill
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 15 Jul 2008 10:05 GMT > > > > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > > > > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Andrew Usher I see Al viewpoints are those of an old line Progressive based on a Darwinian survival of the fittest concept. Libertarians will proposed one damaged by pollution sue the polluter, but of course the "conservatives" have cap damages and stacked the deck in the legal systems. This is all a dance. When a party is out of power it can propose its "ideal" solutions but once in power it has its set of less than ideal solutions. The far Left read the far Right and they both copy each other. And the middle parties are often rotten to the core and are beholden to those who brought to the big party.
All government steal whether they are Libertarian, Progressive, Representative, Democratic, or Autocratic. In a pinch they will draft the young and the able to offer on the alter of Mars. Does this prevent worse things? Sometimes but often not.
Benj - 13 Jul 2008 08:36 GMT > [snip high school fabulist crap] > > If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait > until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot > award people what it first has not stolen from them. What one man > receives without effort is confiscated from another who labors. Ah so. Only this is a very OLD idea. Nixon (remember that "personification of evil" of the uber left?) proposed to END ALL POVERTY for citizens of the united states. No, not a "great society" or "War against poverty" or "1000 points of light". it was the "negative" income tax. Above the official "poverty level" everybody pays taxes as usual, but once your income dropped below the poverty line, you'd get a tax "refund" rather than paying taxes to provide the money to boost you back to the poverty level. Sure there'd be some people who'd not work at all and live at the poverty level for free. It didn't need to be set real high. But it might keep them in beer, cigarettes, guns and ammo. But most wouldn't opt for that. And IF you wanted to live better, all you had to do was work harder and make more money! No millions of bureaucrats watching the poor and setting rules to keep them oppressed and making sure that if they earn an extra dime they lose everything! In fact, ALL those bureaucrats not needed at all! All of them FIRED! Not only would this have eliminated ALL poverty in America but also SAVED money too. Note that it was estimated if all the money spent on welfare and "helping' the "poor" (in those days) were instead simply GIVEN TO THEM, they'd each be getting $30,000 a year! Needless to say they weren't getting it.
So. There is is. A plan to cut costs for helping the poor. A plan to ACTUALLY eliminate ALL poverty in the country FOREVER! A plan that would greatly reduce the size of government by eliminating administration of programs for the "poor". [Their'd be no more poor, remember?] And would actually lower taxes while eliminating poverty. Here's the history test, kiddies: What happened to this plan? I'll give you ONE guess. That's right. EVERY POLITICIAN and BUREAUCRAT in Washington and beyond was dead set AGAINST this idea. Democrats, Republicans, independents, socialists, commies, EVERY ONE OF THEM opposed this idea. EVERYBODY with a voice in government wanted to keep poor people poor! Absolutely nobody wanted to give the poor a way out of poverty. Nobody wanted them anything but totally subservient and dependent upon government hand-outs. It's a wonder they didn't propose handing out blankets for the poor infected with small pox.
So that is what YOUR bunch of lying politicians in Washington are all about. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk. All they know is grab the money and grab the power. And a freely upward mobile underclass is definitely what they DO NOT want to see.
So much for the "negative tax" as a solution to anything.
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 13:28 GMT <snip good presentation>
Yeah, that's basically what the basic income does - completely ends poverty. And we need it especially for all the bureaucrats thrown out of work by it!
Andrew Usher
jmfbahciv - 13 Jul 2008 13:55 GMT > <snip good presentation> > > Yeah, that's basically what the basic income does - completely > ends poverty. And we need it especially for all the bureaucrats > thrown out of work by it! You need to work two years on a farm that has not been mechanized.
/BAH
rdubose@pdq.net - 13 Jul 2008 03:12 GMT > I propose the basic income, also known as the guaranteed minimum > income [quoted text clipped - 243 lines] > > Andrew Usher China, India, and much of the developing world would be thrilled if the US adopted your scheme. The future would be handed to them on a plate. How do you think a system like you propose could ever produce anything competetive in terms of price and quality with one where everyone is, in effect, a trust-fund kid?
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 03:35 GMT On Jul 12, 8:12 pm, "rdub...@pdq.net" <rdub...@pdq.net> wrote:
> China, India, and much of the developing world would be thrilled if > the US adopted your scheme. The future would be handed to them on a > plate. How do you think a system like you propose could ever produce > anything competetive in terms of price and quality with one where > everyone is, in effect, a trust-fund kid? Well, this is an intelligent criticism, so I'm bound to give an intelligent answer.
You're concerned about our manufacturing capability. The fact is that much of that has already been moved to China, India, etc. , and that will continue on our current course. Much of that remaining here has been extensively automated, and now requires many fewer hands, and thus increasing the cost of labor will not affect it nearly so much; that trend will also continue. So I don't think the effect on our manufacturing industries will be too troubling.
Perhaps you are referring to intangible products instead, like computer software, to take the most obvious example. These products of the mind have also been affected by offshoring, but even ignoring that, I do not think this much more serious. People will still work in such industries; the cost of American labor there is already fairly high and so would not increase by much in proportion; also, increased labor costs have always driven increases in the productivity of labor, so that the total cost of labor goes up more slowly than wages.
Remember, the basic income is just barely adequate, and even if we had more resources, I would keep it at that level, so as not to reduce the incentive to engage in productive work too much.
You also mention that 'everyone is a trust-fund kid' under my scheme. I suppose you can say that, but it's purely an emotional reaction to believe that that's a bad thing. We now do have the resources to provide everyone that level of wealth - actually, we have for about 40 years.
Andrew Usher
Jeff▲Relf - 23 Jul 2008 02:04 GMT Andrew Usher is a victim of his environs, South Dakota. “ 47 states showed lower teen birth rates than five years before, but South Dakota was not one of them. ” -- June 2008, community.feministing.com/2008/06/south-dakota-fails-to-keep-pac.html
Near as I can tell, this has left him with some serious mental issues.
tadchem - 13 Jul 2008 12:52 GMT The only way to "end wage slavery" is to end wages.
That means bringing back REAL slavery.
Consider how well governments have done running things like a health care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on.
Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to "Live Free of Die".
Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an autocracy.
Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in an *Emergency Room*?
Tom Davidson Richmond, VA
Andrew Usher - 13 Jul 2008 13:26 GMT > Consider how well governments have done running things like a health > care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and > the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on. Well, the basic income is too simple to run incompetently, so that's not a concern. It's true that it would be accompanied by universal health care, but the experience of other countries that have it shows that it's not that bad. Mostly your assertions are just rhetoric.
> Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back > and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting > the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people > just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to > "Live Free of Die". Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining' has nothing to do with it.
> Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an > autocracy. And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this transformation?
> Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil > servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no > vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing > nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in > an *Emergency Room*? Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies; private health care has no incentive to, especially in the form in which we implement it. A truly private health system would involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone proposing that.
Andrew Usher
rdubose@pdq.net - 13 Jul 2008 15:42 GMT > > Consider how well governments have done running things like a health > > care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Andrew Usher I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny" would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack and never do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in socially responsible ways. Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their a.ses. I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a dash for it or not. So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the morning or a bong-hit of weed?
Avenger - 14 Jul 2008 08:09 GMT On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Andrew Usher I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny" would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack
They're doing it now. A good 10% of the US lives this way. You want to make it 90%?
and never do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in socially responsible ways.
The population back then was mostly homogenous and literate. Craftsmen and workers were well paid and lived decently for the time.
Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their a.ses.
Well, it's even higher among the unsucessful. At least the children of the sucessful had a good model and probably got some education pounded into their heads. The lower orders are completely lost with only rare exceptions.
I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a dash for it or not. So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the morning or a bong-hit of weed?
From what I've seen it's more like a sedative.
Fred Kasner - 14 Jul 2008 23:28 GMT > On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > From what I've seen it's more like a sedative. You are totally wrong about the claim that in the late 18th century craftsmen and workers were well paid and live decently for the time. The thing that kept the population from pressuring the Indians and grabbing more land on the frontier was that most people did not have much if any financial resources. Land was the great attraction since if you could successfully farm well chosen land you could manage to live off the land and generate enough income to purchase those small essentials that any household needed and each generation could increase in material wealth generated by very hard labor and shortened life spans. The women were worked to death. Only those who managed to marry a rich man could count on a reasonable life span. Those who married poor were sure to perish from overwork. And when those who had no land entered the factories they were doomed. The budding capitalists who built factories were without any hearts at all. They worked women and young people until they dropped. Any attempt a labor activism led to immediate firing. It was a tough life. FK
Avenger - 15 Jul 2008 21:19 GMT >> On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > more land on the frontier was that most people did not have much if any > financial resources. Land was the great attraction Land was given to people like the Penns etc and protected by the British military which is what those tiny taxes were paying for.It was very hard to get people to live in the colonies without some incentives and there was a shortage of labour.
since if you could
> successfully farm well What makes you think it was all about farming? NY the largest city was more about trading.
chosen land you could manage to live off the land
> and generate enough income to purchase those small essentials that any > household needed and each generation could increase in material wealth > generated by very hard labor and shortened life spans. The women were > worked to death. Only those who managed to marry a rich man could count on > a reasonable life span. Nonsense. Even the slaves in the south in the US had a relatively easy life compared to the rest of the world.
Those who married poor were sure to perish
> from overwork. And when those who had no land entered the factories they > were doomed. What factories existed in 1780 in the US? In fact, that was one of the reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England.
The budding capitalists who built factories were without
> any hearts at all. They worked women and young people until they dropped. > Any attempt a labor activism led to immediate firing. It was a tough life. Go back to school, brainwashed fool.
> FK rdubose@pdq.net - 15 Jul 2008 23:52 GMT > >> <rdub...@pdq.net> wrote in message > >>news:d6a8102f-6cc7-416e-83bb-6d15775869b8@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > > - Show quoted text - THe "difficulties" between the colonists and the Mother Country really had nothing to do with taxes or economics. That was just a cover story that was convenient to both sides. The real question was, "Will the American land mass be under local, unified political control or not?" Despite an abundance of good will towards their American cousins, the British ruling class was finally not willing to let them take control of the whole continent no matter how friendly the Americans might be towards GB. IOWs, divide to conquer was a fixed idea in London which could not be given up in those days. The underlying problem for London was that the elites in America had such stratospheric notions of their own destiny, no rope or bridle could ever be kept on them for long. And the bulk of the Scots-Irish colonial underclass were not going to be pro-British now were they?
jmfbahciv - 16 Jul 2008 14:17 GMT <snip>
> What factories existed in 1780 in the US? You really do need to learn how things were.
>In fact, that was one of the > reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture > their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England. Which were?
<snip>
/BAH
Huang - 16 Jul 2008 14:36 GMT > <snip> > > > What factories existed in 1780 in the US? > > You really do need to learn how things were. Heh. That was the best time manufacturers ever enjoyed.
Agriculture, Textiles, Coatings, Lumber, Iron, Bronze, Coal, and of course Human Trafficing (Slavery) which still exists today.
> >In fact, that was one of the > > reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture > > their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England. Wrong. The problem was taxation without representation. A problem which is even worse today than it was back then.
And if you think that you are represented by your government, just call them on the phone sometime and you'll find out how sincerely they care about your problems. Think "Hurricane Katrina", or maybe Waco.
I feel very RIPPED OFF by my so-called government because I have PAID $ $$$$$ hard earned TAX MONEY for them to defend the constitution, and all I get is a government that SPIES ON ME, they legalize their own crimes as if such a thing were possible, domestic SPYING, exporting TORTURE, and refusing to enforce existing laws such as Immigration laws. The whole thing adds up to a very bleak picture of a bunch of desperate men in expensive suits who are NOT really Americans who are simply pulling the strings, but in reality they all belong in JAIL.
The last thing that they want, the thing that they fear is pure Democracy. They fear living in a society where people actually vote on issues and self govern themselves by referrendum. They fear it because they would lose their precious power which clearly they have abused, and continue to abuse without shame.
We need to have referrendums on EVERYTHING. No politician should EVER make a decision on ANYTHING. Everything should be decided by referrendum !!!!!!!
jmfbahciv - 16 Jul 2008 15:12 GMT >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Agriculture, > Textiles, I worked in one of those New England Mills. The floors were so soaked with lanolin, they were slippery. Fire drills were no joking matter. I had a pair of shoes with wooden heels; if I walked too fast, I would slip and slide.
/BAH
Huang - 17 Jul 2008 02:29 GMT > >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > /BAH One of the first big industries in the colonies was making pitch coatings for ships and whatever else they put it on. One hell of a coating material, it was a big business.
There are some old blast furnaces which have fallen into ruin in the eastern states. I saw a photo of one, really quite amazing. Quite interesting how they did things back then.
Jeff▲Relf - 23 Jul 2008 03:06 GMT As you indirectly suggested, a “ sedative ” is exactly what Andrew Usher wants / needs.
Likely, he's a victim of his environs, South Dakota. “ 47 states showed lower teen birth rates than five years before, but South Dakota was not one of them. ” -- June 2008, community.feministing.com/2008/06/south-dakota-fails-to-keep-pac.html
Near as I can tell, this has left him with some serious mental issues. The U.S. already has a safty net, and it's producing a lot of kids.
Andrew Usher - 18 Jul 2008 20:12 GMT On Jul 13, 8:42 am, "rdub...@pdq.net" <rdub...@pdq.net> wrote:
> Why is it that there is so much downward mobility in America? I'll answer this separately; I assume 'downward mobility' has its normal meaning of people not attaining the same class as their parents. First, if there were no downward mobility there would be no upward mobility either - this could be simply a matter of luck.
Second, there is downward mobility in every society. There is a fundamental demographic reason for this: the rich always have a birth rate above replacement. This has been true is just about every society, and is still true in ours, if one confines oneself to the truly rich.
Third, even if you think that wealth should be passed by inheritance, we have estate tax, and many wealthy people do not pass on all their accumulated wealth. All these are factors other than the one you're thinking of.
Andrew Usher
Jeff▲Relf - 22 Jul 2008 06:40 GMT I know a guy who gets almost 900 USD per month ( for disablity ), but his drug habit ( crack, heroin ) has him “ flying a sign ” that reads: “ Homeless vet ”.
He is a veteran, but not homeless .. his rent is 375 per month.
Already, jobless mothers have it good .. I see it first-hand. They get free daycare, free college for themselves, checks ( cash ) in the mail,
bad-a.s apartments for a tiny fraction of those checks, free medical, free food ( lots of free food, WIC, food stamps, etc. ) free bus fair .. the list goes on and on.
The “ sperm donors ” get the bill in the form of a nation-wide network of computers implementing automatic liens .. liens that Never Ever expire ..
liens that no judge can touch. Interest and penalties of about 12 A.P.R. accrues on this debt. ( penalties vary by state )
How many planets do we have ? two ? no, just one, and these babies are burning it up like a log in the fire.
Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. and even that could kill you toot sweet. Same goes for humanity as a whole.
Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 16:30 GMT > I know a guy who gets almost 900 USD per month ( for disablity ), > but his drug habit ( crack, heroin ) has him “ flying a sign ” [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > free medical, free food ( lots of free food, WIC, food stamps, etc. ) > free bus fair .. the list goes on and on. I admit I'm not an expert on it, but I don't doubt that single mothers now receive fairly good benefits. Actually my proposal is intended to economically benefit men more than women.
> The “ sperm donors ” get the bill in the form of > a nation-wide network of computers implementing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Interest and penalties of about 12 A.P.R. accrues on this debt. > ( penalties vary by state ) If you're talking about mandatory child support, my proposal would allow us to eliminate it, or at least seriously reduce it.
> How many planets do we have ? two ? no, just one, > and these babies are burning it up like a log in the fire. What?
Andrew Usher
Jeff▲Relf - 22 Jul 2008 17:34 GMT As I said: “ Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. and even that could kill you toot sweet. Same goes for humanity as a whole. ”. You don't understand that ?
More “ babies ” spells more consumption, and, just as drinking too much ruins your health, overpopulation is ruining the health of the planet.
As you guessed, I was taking about child suport when I said: “ The ‘ sperm donors ’ get the bill in the form of a nation-wide network of computers implementing automatic liens .. liens that Never Ever expire .. ”. Society is over-feeding the babies and shanking the sperm donors.
Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 17:47 GMT (changing the subject line back)
> As I said: > “ Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and, just as drinking too much ruins your health, > overpopulation is ruining the health of the planet. Yes, but you hardly expressed that. Your quote above appears to be meaningless.
Andrew Usher
Jeff▲Relf - 22 Jul 2008 18:36 GMT I'm sorry you feel the following is “ meaningless ”: “ Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. and even that could kill you toot sweet. Same goes for humanity as a whole. ”.
It means that, generally, living faster means dying sooner. This is true for you, me, and humanity as a whole.
Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 18:58 GMT > I'm sorry you feel the following is “ meaningless ”: > “ Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It means that, generally, living faster means dying sooner. > This is true for you, me, and humanity as a whole. You're an idiot. And stop changing the subject line; that's NOT what it's for.
Andrew Usher
Jeff▲Relf - 22 Jul 2008 19:42 GMT I'm talking to you, Andrew Usher, you're in my “ References: ” field. Threads drift, the title should reflect that.
“ Except for houseflies, animal species tested with CR [ Caloric restriction ] so far, including primates, rats, mice, spiders, Drosophila, C. elegans and rotifers, have shown lifespan extension. CR is the only known dietary measure capable of extending maximum lifespan, as opposed to average lifespan. ”. -- WikiPedia
As I said: “ Anything short of hibernation will shorten your life .. and even that could kill you toot sweet. Same goes for humanity as a whole. ”.
Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 19:51 GMT > I'm talking to you, Andrew Usher, you're in my “ References: ” field. > Threads drift, the title should reflect that. Jeff▲Relf - 22 Jul 2008 22:46 GMT Each post is unique, a message from me to you. Threads can branch off anywhere, at anytime.
Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 22:50 GMT > Each post is unique, a message from me to you. > Threads can branch off anywhere, at anytime. Avenger - 14 Jul 2008 07:58 GMT >> Consider how well governments have done running things like a health >> care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining' > has nothing to do with it. There will always be the Alphas, Betas and Gammas in every society regardless of whether it is a capitalistic or communist one. You think the 2% in the communist party in Russia lived like the rest of the people? The top people had the best residences in Moscow and country estates or dachas outside in the surburbs or in Sochi. They shopped at special stores or bought what they wanted on trips outside of Russia.
>> Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an >> autocracy. > > And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this > transformation? Every place where it's been tried. You had the elite and the proles not too different than in the novel 1984.
>> Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil >> servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no >> vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing >> nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in >> an *Emergency Room*? Let's remember that this was a psychiatric hospital and personal sees people rolling on the floor all the time. Yes, they should be more diligent but in 99% of the cases it's just one of the mental patients acting up.
> Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies; > private health care has no incentive to, They certainly do; it's called a lawsuit. The government is immune in many cases or there are strict rules and procedures you need to follow to sue the gov't and there are usually limits on the judgements and punitive danages (if any allowed at all)
especially in the form
> in which we implement it. A truly private health system would > involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone > proposing that. You see this all the time in places like the UK where there is socialised medicine. If you want the good doctors at your convenience you either pay up front or show that you have private insurance to pay the bill.
> Andrew Usher Andrew Usher - 22 Jul 2008 21:46 GMT I have not mentioned that another concomitant of the basic income, not absolutely necessary but desirable, would be the abolition of the minimum wage. The reason, evidently, is that the advantages of having the minimum wage are obviated by the basic income, while the disadvantages are not.
That is, the basic income secures to all a more-than-minimum sustenance, and therefore abolishes the 'iron law of wages'. Since it would then be possible for a worker to work for arbitrarily low wages and still maintain himself, the government minimum wage would not be needed to effect that, as it is now (theoretically, at least). Rather, the minimum could be set by the free market as the price workers place on their time, below which they would lose by taking work.
The economic efficiency of allowing workers to be hired for less than the current minimum wage is evident, I think. The jobs for which workers are most likely to be found at such low wages are those for which the conditions are such that employees would enjoy the work to a significant extent. Now, there is nothing in between workers taking nothing (volunteering) and workers taking the minimum wage; under a system with a basic income opening up that range would surely be helpful. It might be said that it would discourage automation - but so what? It would discourage automation only where it is economically inefficient, and anyway, jobs that can be automated tend to be not very enjoyable and hence unlikely to be so affected.
Andrew Usher
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