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Space Forum / Amateur Astronomy / July 2009Will this end the hoaxters??
Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? At being able to see features only 3 meters wide I should think NASA should do this. They did it with the face on Mars, now they should do it for Apollo. If not for that, at least for posterity. I suppose though that people will say "Ohhh nooo why should they at all??" That's the othger side of the coin...those people are a bad as the hoaxter types. Me? I wanna see the Apollo hardware from above just for the halibut ! ! http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/lroc_20090702_a.html > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/lroc_20090702_a.html I don't see why NASA should bother with "bullshit about the moon landing hoax". The kooks will just find something else to be kooky about, e.g. does anybody think that folks who are worried about the world coming to an end in 2012 will be cured in 2013? Dennis In news:NA73m.34457$PH1.15812@edtnps82 "Michael Toms" <toms@nospam.net> wrote: > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing > hoax? Of course not. Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes.  SignatureBert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com > > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing > > hoax? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com Well, except that the so-called "Moon landing" films WERE a hoax. Far from being shot "on the Moon", those films were actually faked on a secret NASA sound stage somwehere near the South Pole of Enceladus. Don't believe me? Prove it for yourself. Freeze frame #129382, and you can clearly see where some NASA "big brain" was asleep at the switch, and forgot to edit out the rings of Saturn. And in frames #294924-7, you can see, unmistakably, three cryovolcanoes erupting, just inside the right edge of the frame. "Moon landings" indeed! PFfffftt! NASA was just trying to "cover up" the fact that they had already explored the outer reaches of the solar system, and were currently spending the gazillion dollars a year of YOUR money we gave them for "space exploration" on Cuban cigars and rides at Disney World What? Oh, I suppose you *also* believe that Disney World wasn't built until 1971. Don't you people ever GET IT? That's WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE!!! Haiku Jones p.s: those six dark spots in the left-center of frames #294355-67? Fossil Enceladusian trilobite carapaces. A fool could see that. > Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes. True. But the point isn't so much to cure and shut up the hoax claimants, it's just so that they won't have the power to confuse a big chunk of the unsophisticated. There will always be people who will believe any nutty idea, but they're few in number; the people who can be fooled when a nutty idea sounds plausible enough are far more numerous. John Savard > >> Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > John Savard > I'm not sure I agree with this, if for no other reason than, if someone declares that an image was faked, that the evidence was tainted, then how is the layperson to trust the evidence? On a deeper level, this is the central question of epistemology, "How do you know that what you know is the truth? How to you verify the evidence?" Cross-checking and coordination of facts is one of the methods to try and ferret out the truth, but it takes time and detective work, which most people don't want to, or are incapable (in my humble opinion) of doing. Of course, what the conspiracy people fail to notice, is that if they claim that the evidence was tainted, then ANY evidence they present is also open to the same charge. If you open up that can-of-worms, you defeat any chance of finding the Truth. --- Dave >> >>> Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >also open to the same charge. If you open up that can-of-worms, you >defeat any chance of finding the Truth. There's a fairly reliable way around the epistimelogical difficulty: Occam's razor. It doesn't always work--nature is nothing if not an exercise in exceptions--but short of carrying out all your own original research, it works better than anything else. Which is to say, people needn't do all that much detective work. They simply have to know how to think rationally--which most do quite well on an individual basis. Get 'em in groups, however, and all bets are off. -- Dave Occam's Chainsaw > >>> Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Dave > Occam's Chainsaw s.a.a is the absolute proof (if any were needed) that we all inhabit the Matrix. There is no other reasonable explanation for the way intelligent and educated people repeatedly respond to immoral fools. I have little or no confidence that the world situation has not become a preprogrammed virtual reality game for my personal entertainment and irritation. If what I presently experience is not lunacy then how does one explain anything at all? North Korea? Somali pirates? Farm subsidies and food dumping? Michael Jackson? Microsoft's global monopoly? Afghanistan? Plastic breast implants for topless models? The religious right? George Bush's two terms in office? The Catholic Church. MacDonald's? Obesity? Iran? The celebrity culture? Global Warming? Global recession? The UN? WTF is going on? How can this possibly be reality? >> There's a fairly reliable way around the epistimelogical difficulty: >> Occam's razor. It doesn't always work--nature is nothing if not an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >the Matrix. There is no other reasonable explanation for the way >intelligent and educated people repeatedly respond to immoral fools. Immoral? Immortal, maybe... >I >have little or no confidence that the world situation has not become a >preprogrammed virtual reality game for my personal entertainment and >irritation. If what you say is true, then why are you doing this to yourself? >If what I presently experience is not lunacy then how does >one explain anything at all? North Korea? Somali pirates? Farm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Warming? Global recession? The UN? WTF is going on? How can this >possibly be reality? You're not monolithic, right? I mean, you have many internal desires, some of which no doubt conflict with each other for control of your actions, yes? That's normal. Multiply all those diverse internal goals by six billion. That's one reaon reality is far more complex than a model of reality. -- Dave David Nakamoto <david.nakamoto@verizon.net> wrote in news:2Es3m.633$P5.214 @nwrddc02.gnilink.net: > On a deeper level, this is the central question of epistemology, "How do > you know that what you know is the truth? How to you verify the > evidence?" Cross-checking and coordination of facts is one of the > methods to try and ferret out the truth, but it takes time and detective > work, which most people don't want to, or are incapable (in my humble > opinion) of doing. Education. Specifically, education regarding rational thinking. People are not taught HOW to think. Using logic and reason does not come naturally to most people. But with such an anti-science stance by many groups, it's gonna be hard to teach folks these "(not so) common sense" skills. We could very well be on the verge of a new Dark Ages. Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? > David Nakamoto <david.nakam...@verizon.net> wrote in news:2Es3m.633$P5.214 > @nwrddc02.gnilink.net: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > We could very well be on the verge of a new Dark Ages. I got news for you,with a little bit of effort and the sheer resilience of Western civilisation,we may just manage to escape a nightmare which all of you are a part of. Not a single one of you can state with certainty that the Earth is round and rotating in any meaningful way,it is some sort of mass indoctrination that I cannot fathom for what group of people can manage to inverted the references for daily and orbital motion to arrive at a conclusion which may look right but isn't. I have read with horror how the 'sidereal time' people operated in the most repulsive way,uncaring people with no goodness and at one time it took a king to put your kind in its place - http://books.google.com/books?id=8roAAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=memoirs+tra it&ei=vW5PSvqUA4qsywTZ-aTmAg How,for goodness sake,can so many people act in unison to destroy a basic astronomical fact which has a definite reasoning behind it and unmeasureable good consequences ?.Is there not one person here who has the basic goodness to know that a race who can't tell how long it takes the Earth to turn once with all the technical and historical data is in deep,deep trouble ?. > Brian > --http://www.skywise711.com- Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism > Seismic FAQ:http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html > Quake "predictions":http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html > Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? On Jul 4, 2:05 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> asked: Is there not one person here who has > the basic goodness to know that a race who can't tell how long it > takes the Earth to turn once with all the technical and historical > data is in deep,deep trouble ?. No, not one person. It looks more and more like you are the smartest person in the world, and the only one who can possibly see things the way they really are... NOT. Frames, frames, frames... if you can't understand them, you are sunk... so... you are sunk. However, I know several 5th graders who could show you... > On Jul 4, 2:05 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> asked: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > However, I know several 5th graders who could show you... There is nothing remotely close to the scale of this tragedy where not a single person can state clearly that the Earth turns once in 24 hours and the reasoning behind it. http://books.google.com/books?id=8roAAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=memoirs+tra it&ei=vW5PSvqUA4qsywTZ-aTmAg The description by Harrison of how clocks work with the daily cycle as the Earth rotates to noon from page 91 onwards is so simple,even omitting the Equation of Time correction,that to see my fellow human beings do everything in their power to obscure what is basically the most basic fact linking shape and rotation far exceeds the cruel treatment of Harrison himself and extends the cruelty to the entire discipline of astronomy. What can any race of people possibly gain from distorting the reasoning which links an astronomer such as Huygens to the inventor that is Harrison through the references that link daily rotation to the Sun - "Draw a Meridian line upon a floor and then hang two plummets, each by a small thred or wire, directly over the said Meridian, at the distance of some 2. feet or more one from the other, as the smalness of the thred will admit. When the middle of the Sun (the Eye being placed so, as to bring both the threds into one line) appears to be in the same line exactly ( you are then immediately to set the Watch, not precisely to the hour of 12. but by so much less, as is the Aequation of the day by the Table." http://www.xs4all.nl/~adcs/Huygens/06/kort-E.html This nightmare of indifference must surely represent some type of situation which our race has not seen before insofar as were a man to propose that the Earth is flat by looking out his window,nobody would pay attention to his views on important matters.You,as 'sidereal time' proponents do much the same thing with not a hope of matching the distances in the table with time and geographical separation - http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/education/curricula/giscc/units/u014/tables/table02.html John Harrison had the authority of the King behind him and still these astrologers persisted in trying to wreck the achievement of this man and his industry which amounts to an 18th century one man version of NASA.Today there is no authority in existence,none ! > What can any race of people possibly gain from distorting the > reasoning which links an astronomer such as Huygens to the inventor [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > precisely to the hour of 12. but by so much less, as is the Aequation > of the day by the Table." I agree that the day is 24 hours long on average. But there is no external reference for the Earth turning in a uniform manner with a period of 24 hours. The Sun is the reference for the unequal natural noon cycle only. What we gain from considering the uniform motion that does have a reference as the Earth's rotation is an ability to understand where the Equation of Time comes from. John Savard > There is nothing remotely close to the scale of this tragedy where not > a single person can state clearly that the Earth turns once in 24 [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > and his industry which amounts to an 18th century one man version of > NASA.Today there is no authority in existence,none ! I think it's finally official, Feckwit has clearly gone around the bend. I don't see that there is any hope for him whatsoever. R.I.P. Feckwit \Paul A Zark off, Kelleher. You're but a troll. I honestly have trouble accepting that even you believe the crap you spew. You are astronomically obtuse. Brian Signaturehttp://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? Brian... We are already there:( > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/lroc_20090702_a.html Unfortunately, the "moon-landing-hoax" is what James Randi, in a most felicitous turn of phrase, has termed "an unsinkable duck". Haiku Jones >Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > >At being able to see features only 3 meters wide I should think NASA should >do this. >They did it with the face on Mars, now they should do it for Apollo. In case you didn't notice, the whole face on Mars issue is still being presented as an alien artifact. High resolution images did nothing to change things, and they won't change anything with the Moon hoax crowd, either. You can't convince a paranoid to stop being so simply by presenting rational evidence. You need drugs to do that. _________________________________________________ Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com > >Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Chris L Peterson > Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com I can't remember a single dull moment in the journey to discover the history of clocks,planetary dynamics and geometry yet the conclusion that the Earth will rotate 69.17 miles every 4 minutes at the Equator and turn through a full 24 901.5 mile circumference in 24 hours contains so much more history than a person can absorb in a lifetime - http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/longitude/page04.shtml Your old commie indoctrination just does not have that frontier spirit about it and how many good kids are robbed of the pleasure of becoming familiar with the human struggle to create the timekeeping systems and conventions we use today.John Harrison was basically a one man version of NASA yet look what each and every one of you do every time you try to obscure the principles which link the 24 hour clock to the raw astronomical cycles , planetary dynamics and terrestrial geography .Nobody pays attention to the moon-hoaxers yet when it comes to the invention of accurate clocks in respect to planetary geography and dynamics,you yourselves are worse. You can believe what you wish,that is what freedom is all about,I too am free to believe the Earth turns once in 24 hours and 15 degrees per hour yet I am alone in that view for many years in this forum and that is the most disconcerting thing > You can believe what you wish,that is what freedom is all about,I too > am free to believe the Earth turns once in 24 hours and 15 degrees per > hour yet I am alone in that view for many years in this forum and > that is the most disconcerting thing We have already gone over this, you are not alone with that view, with respect to the sun we all agree with you, we all believe the same thing, so get off your high horse and knock off the disparaging remarks. Time to move on to a different frame of reference, where things really get exciting. \Paul A >> You can believe what you wish,that is what freedom is all about,I too >> am free to believe the Earth turns once in 24 hours and 15 degrees per [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > \Paul A He cannot get off his high horse. He is obsessed with his position. It will take pharmaceutical intervention to reverse course. I doubt he/she will allow that. EPD > >> You can believe what you wish,that is what freedom is all about,I too > >> am free to believe the Earth turns once in 24 hours and 15 degrees per [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Here is a hypothetical scenario - a guy comes to a forum which has an interest in astronomy and announces a simple fact that humanity is great for landing people on the moon and is rebuffed and called insane.So this guy goes into the history of avionics,from balloons to planes to rockets, to promote the fact that men did land on the moon but is rejected again by questioning the reasoning for going to the moon.The guy then explains the social and p[olitical issues behind the venture and technological achievements that emerged from the race to put men on the moon but is rebuffed again with the observation that even the most powerful telescopes show no indication that men were on the moon.The guy comes does this for over 6 years and shows all the possibilities of space adventure arising from the event that occured 40 years ago and this is still rejected.In short,behind the simple fact that people were on the moon is a vast history of achievements from many different areas that make it possible. I come here and announce that the Earth turns once in 24 hours at an Equatorial rate of 69.17 miles every 4 minutes and an entire circumference in 24 hours but this is rejected.I explain the history of horology and mapmaking based on 1 degree of geographical separation for each 4 minutes based on rotational characteristics and it is still rejected.The difference between geostatic and the astronomy of planetary dynamics makes no difference as people refuse to acknowledge the simple 24 hour/360 degree fact,the entire history of timekeeping from the creation of the 24 hour day to the calendar system based on references for daily and orbital motions,the practical issues of calendar reform and the creation of timezones,the danger of using timekeeping averages to model planetary dynamics just as modern try to using computers to model global climate through the eyes of pollution. So much behind that simple fact that the Earth rotates once in 24 hours and in 6 years I have yet to see a single individual look at the same history of astronomy as I do an affirm it,whether it is frightening or heartbreaking to see our race descend to a level where this simple fact is rejected for a poorly thought out alternative 'sidereal time' value is a tragedy that few could genuinely absorb in the scope of its influence. Being on the wrong side of the argument you use words like repetition and obsession whereas it often surfaces as dedication and tenacity on the right side of this thing,the very fact that after 6 years ,even allowing for my own failings,there is still not another person in all the thousands that visit here that can acknowledge a basic fact for the independent rotation of the Earth demonstrates just how deep and wide this problem actually is. > Being on the wrong side of the argument you use words like repetition > and obsession whereas it often surfaces as dedication and tenacity on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - If none out of thousands has accepted your viewpoints has it ever crossed you mind that: a) you are explaining yourself very badly or b) you are wrong and the thousands that disagree with you are correct or c) posting the same material hundreds of time when a single peer reviewed article would suffice creates the impression that you are obsessed On Jul 3, 10:59 am, "Martin Nicholson (NMR)" <martin_piers_nichol...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Being on the wrong side of the argument you use words like repetition > > and obsession whereas it often surfaces as dedication and tenacity on [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > reviewed article would suffice creates the impression that you are > obsessed No.the history of astronomy,invention ,investigation and exploration is behind that simple fact for daily rotation - http://lewis-clark.org/content/content-article.asp?ArticleID=1268 It takes dedication and that human spirit to bring back to life something that was almost destroyed over a silly error that happened in the late 17th century.If the Americans and English want to deny their own history for the sake of the same astrologers who tried to diminish the efforts of Harrison in creating the watch that keeps a constant pace over long periods of time then so be it,the fact that the Earth turns through 24 901 miles every 24 hours will still exist no matter what peer review is in existence to deny it. The catastrophic use of an astrological framework and timekeeping averages to dictate planetary dynamics is a cautionary lessons insofar as people now try to model global climate with computers while having the most primitive understanding of basic astronomical principles based on planetary dynamics. On Jul 3, 10:59 am, "Martin Nicholson (NMR)" <martin_piers_nichol...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Being on the wrong side of the argument you use words like repetition > > and obsession whereas it often surfaces as dedication and tenacity on [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > reviewed article would suffice creates the impression that you are > obsessed It is the magnificence of it all ,the appeal of the goodness of people to see what a simple fact such as the 24 hours it takes the planet to turn once shines with human achievement. Even the flaw of Flamsteed which inverted the references for daily and orbital motions has its own dignity to it or the geometric distortions of Newton,only in the eartly 20th century does a dull ennui set in with the inability to deal with the matter effectively from the point which link between clocks and planetary dynamics through 24 hours and geographical separation of 4 minutes for each degree of geographical separation. You are caught up in the cogs of a late 17th century mistake which has no history behind it and would teach kids all the concepts which spread out from that mistake.Humanity,at its core,is good,courageous,hopeful, adventurous and all those positives which all the color-me-grey ideologies have never been able to contain - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5t7hbjUCQ So,I am thrilled with my era and its technological achievements which can now restore the damage that was done,a pulse of energy that runs through humanity and astronomically encapsulated at different points,one of which is that it takes the Earth to turn once in 24 hours. >> You can believe what you wish,that is what freedom is all about,I too >> am free to believe the Earth turns once in 24 hours and 15 degrees per >> hour yet I am alone in that view for many years in this forum and >> that is the most disconcerting thing You're right: there's no law against being wrong. But it /is/ rather poor form to repeat the same error ad nauseam. -- Dave > yet look what each and every one of you do every > time you try to obscure the principles which link the 24 hour clock to > the raw astronomical cycles , planetary dynamics and terrestrial > geography http://www.quadibloc.com/science/eot.htm I'm not trying to obscure the principles which link natural noon, with the Equation of Time, to uniform clock time. I am trying to make them plain; the alternate set of principles you are trying to present, being badly flawed, can't be explained clearly - and you don't even try. If people did listen to you, the connection between the natural noon cycle and the 24-hour clock would become obscure indeed. John Savard It will probably quiet a few of them down..thinning the ranks. But probably just as soon as one issue gets solved enough some other sad soul will invent another conspiracy.... >It will probably quiet a few of them down..thinning the ranks. But >probably just as soon as one issue gets solved enough some other sad >soul will invent another conspiracy.... Well, the sort of casual "conspiracy of the month" folks might drift off to something else. But each of these wacky beliefs has a core group of disciples, and nothing will change their views. Of course, sometimes they aren't so wacky at all. Hoagland and his crew are making a lot of money from books and websites promoting the whole face on Mars conspiracy. He's probably too smart to actually believe this stuff- he's just a modern P. T. Barnum, dependent on suckers for his income. _________________________________________________ Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com >> It will probably quiet a few of them down..thinning the ranks. But >> probably just as soon as one issue gets solved enough some other sad [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > conspiracy. He's probably too smart to actually believe this stuff- he's > just a modern P. T. Barnum, dependent on suckers for his income. Oh, I'm sure of it. Reminds me of a clip I saw on a TV news show some years back from a "World Renown" ufologist. He explained about these three lights that flew in perfect formation in the sky as they did zig-zag maneuvers. He was going on and on while the clip played on a monitor as he talked. Then at one point the news switched to the clip full screen and not a shot of the monitor. Then you could see it. The station broadcast the clip with the black level set correctly to FCC/NTSC standards. There was the wings and fuselage of the airplane. What the clip was, was a hand held shot through a telephoto lens that was severely underexposed. Busted. But the news people, bless them and their ratings, just went on like he was gospel. >Oh, I'm sure of it. Reminds me of a clip I saw on a TV news show some years >back from a "World Renown" ufologist. He explained about these three lights [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >was severely underexposed. Busted. But the news people, bless them and their >ratings, just went on like he was gospel. Yep. People want to believe, unto desperation. ...which explains a lot of things. -- Dave Exactly:) Couple of years ago I was listening to something about ufo's and some person said its "all about the money". Just like the scam artists that you see on cable at 3 or 4 or 5 am with their "get rich quick" schemes.... They get rich while poor souls pay x number of dollars for their tape & cd "how to" programs. > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/lroc_20090... The only thing that will get rid of them is to let Darwinism do its job and stop the welfare state from saving the mentally defective. > Will LROC put to rest the years long bullshit about the moon landing hoax? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > If you remember, the improved images of the Mesa that was The Face On Mars did NOT stop, hinder, or slow down the conspiracy people; they insisted the improved image was itself a hoax. Since these people will never go away, our best strategy is to ignore them until they get in our face, then hit them across the back of the head with a 2x4 as hard as possible. These people are the price we pay for the 1st amendment, but it doesn't mean we have to either listen to them or tolerate them if they do get in our face. --- Right wing, gun toting, socialist, peace-loving Dave 3 metre wide pixels? What is the remnants of the LEM going to be? Two or three pixels, a slightly lighter shade of gray? If the existence of laser reflectors on the moon doesn't convince them, I doubt three pixels will. >3 metre wide pixels? > >What is the remnants of the LEM going to be? Two or three pixels, a slightly >lighter shade of gray? The results that are returned could be a good deal better than you might expect. If the orbiter takes multiple images crossing the landing areas, or images on different orbits, they can be combined via the drizzle algorithm to yield an image with greater resolution than the camera itself provides. Add in the effects of reflections and shadows, and it is entirely possible that we'll have enough detail to recognize what we are seeing as something other than just a few gray pixels. It would be fun to see that. _________________________________________________ Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com >>3 metre wide pixels? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > are seeing as something other than just a few gray pixels. It would be > fun to see that. YES..fun to see that !! > On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 23:46:45 +1000, "Peter Webb" > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Chris L Peterson > Cloudbait Observatoryhttp://www.cloudbait.com Here is something that is fun for your pupils if they ever get past your indoctrination - http://dl.screenaustralia.gov.au/module/1318/ Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. > Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. There's nothing in the clip to contradict that it does. Furthermore, countless astronomers prove it every night. SignatureCurtis Croulet Temecula, California On Jul 3, 10:13 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@**NO**SPAM**verizon.net> wrote: > > Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Curtis Croulet > Temecula, California There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here but a value for rotation other than the rotation of the Earth through 24 901.5 miles in 24 hours or 69.17 miles per degree of rotation is the astronomical equivalent of denying that men landed on the lunar surface 40 years ago.It being the 4th of July and the frontier spirit of Americans,here is another delightful expression of something you cannot enjoy - http://lewis-clark.org/content/content-article.asp?ArticleID=1268 From U2 to H4,from Captain Cook to Lewis and Clark and all the incredible human creative,innovative and investigative spirit helped along by the great motions of the Earth that make existence possible,even for people who do their best to ignore it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5t7hbjUCQ > There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here...etc. ad > nauseum You do realize, don't you, that the clip cuts off mid-way through a presentation about Harrison's clocks? You're the only living person who agrees with your alternate reality. There's a tragedy here. A few years ago, contributors to this newsgroup discussed telescopes, eyepieces, the possibility of seeing faint nebulae and galaxies, astro-imaging equipment and techniques, etc. Now it's mostly dominated by fruitcakes. This is what Usenet has come to. Other groups I formerly enjoyed have been taken over by egomaniacs and flame wars. Fortunately, I see knowledgeable, rational people like Mr. Peterson in other online forums -- just not these Usenet groups. SignatureCurtis Croulet Temecula, California >> There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here...etc. ad >> nauseum [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There's a tragedy here. The tragedy here is replying to that idiot and especially in an OP that has nothing to do with this. > The tragedy here is replying to that idiot and especially in an OP that > has nothing to do with this. True. For me there's a certain wicked fun in replying to him, though. "Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in!" ("they" = Mr. Oriel). SignatureCurtis Croulet Temecula, California On Jul 4, 4:53 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@**NO**SPAM**verizon.net> wrote: > There's a tragedy here. A few years ago, contributors to this newsgroup > discussed telescopes, eyepieces, the possibility of seeing faint nebulae and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Curtis Croulet > Temecula, California I believe that s.a.a started going downhill when discussion here centred heavily around obscenely expensive optics and equipment. The feeling of exclusion where the majority were not able to afford a box full of kilobuck eyepieces or large aperture Apos was almost palpable. Serious amateur astronomy has now returned to its late 18th-19th century roots. Only the professional classes (and lawyers) can now afford the necessary equipment. The rest of us are just big kids playing with our Chinese (slave labour) made toys. Add together the "entry level" kit of a Paramount or big AP, a Ritchey-Chretién or 16"+ Schmidt Cass and some serious imaging equipment and you have excluded a lot of people. Even the solar instruments become ridiculously expensive as apertures increase to useful levels of resolution. Perhaps they should just take the amateur out of s.a._? s.a.a is on the decline otherwise these trolls would not enjoy the exposure they do presently. Is a "parrot" really any better than a troll? >I believe that s.a.a started going downhill when discussion here >centred heavily around obscenely expensive optics and equipment. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >century roots. Only the professional classes (and lawyers) can now >afford the necessary equipment. Equipment oriented astronomy: fine telescopes, cameras, etc, has never been cheaper. Astronomy is one of the least expensive hobbies I know of. Most people I know who are doing it are spending far less than other people I know with much more common hobbies. _________________________________________________ Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com On Jul 4, 3:53 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@**NO**SPAM**verizon.net> wrote: > > There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here...etc. ad > > nauseum [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You're the only living person who agrees with your alternate reality. Which happens to be that the Equatorial Earth rotates at 69.17 miles every 4 minutes and full Equatorial circumference of 24901.5 miles in 24 hours or alternatively 4 minutes for each degree of geographical separation and 24 hours for a full 360 degrees of rotation and that video clip is just one of those excellent new tools to get inside the core astronomical architecture that makes it possible. http://dl.screenaustralia.gov.au/module/1318/ All these little snippets of information mount from behind the 'sidereral time vs solar time' hoax and exist on level where the exploration,creative and innovative spirit of humanity is found yet in all the years here in a forum where people really do think themselves as 'astronomers',they remain stuck in a late 17th century graveyard based on simple mistake by one person. > There's a tragedy here. A few years ago, contributors to this newsgroup > discussed telescopes, eyepieces, the possibility of seeing faint nebulae and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Curtis Croulet > Temecula, California The magnification exercise actually is a facet of astronomy and a valuable one but astronomy is not a studio apartment where some have a more expensive apartment than others,astronomy is a sprawling arena with rich and stormy areas which appeal to men of adventure,whether it is putting people in space or dealing with the energetic reasoning that stretches back to remote antiquity.Eyepieces,lens caps ,what carpet to put on the floor and other things like that would probably excite the hell out of you but you could just as easily be discussing microscopes if that is the case. There are always going to be a certain amount of people who feel an extreme discomfort outside this tree house astronomy when encountering the works of the great astronomers or even putting contemporary data and images in context and I can tell you that even though none of you mind linking your idea of 'astronomer' to the names of Copernicus and Kepler or even Flamsteed/Newton,you do not actually know or like what they have to say. The little video clip is an excellent one and more and more are surfacing as time goes on in this rich area of timekeeping astronomy and where it links in with planetary dynamics.SAA will never go back to being a flag of convenience for empirical dullness and people who can't even manage to express the most basic of all planetary facts and the reasoning behind it for such is the greatness of life in always finding a way through stagnation and mediocrity. The common history of clocks,daily rotation and the 24 hours/360 degree correlation is before everyone,not as a fingerpointing exercise,but as a testament to the spirit of humanity and its goodness.Such is independence. > Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. I don't believe that the day is 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds long. So if you're trying to determine longitude by using the position of the Sun, you had better do it in terms of a 24 hour day. But with corrections for the Equation of Time. Use a star, and you don't need to bother with that. So that must reflect the Earth's real underlying motion. John Savard >> Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Use a star, and you don't need to bother with that. So that must >reflect the Earth's real underlying motion. Maybe he figures nobody ever did celestial navigation at night. -- Dave > Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. It's not a matter of "belief", Gerald. The Earth is measured to rotate exactly 360° in one sidereal day. See: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealDay.html > > Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'. > > It's not a matter of "belief", Gerald. The Earth is measured to > rotate exactly 360° in one sidereal day. > > See:http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealDay.html . It being Independence day,who is free to say that the Equatorial Earth will turn today 69.17 miles for every 4 minutes making an entire 24901.5 mile rotation in 24 hours where 1 degree of geographical separation represents 4 minutes of clock time.It is those delightful histories that pop up that are making the difference some detailed like the Huygen's treatise and others more informal such the reasons behind the creation of timezones for mail and train schedules - http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/longitude/page03.shtml Sidereal time,like timezones,is a wonderful convenience based on the timekeeping 24 hour architecture in tandem with its 365/366 day calendar extension however it is a terrible mistake to believe it contains information on the Earth's shape and rotational characteristics which belongs to the core 24 hour/360 degree architecture.Setting aside the complexities which create the 24 hour average and then the use of this average to act as a 'constant' for daily rotation,it all rests on restoring the proper references for daily and orbital motions in terms of the 24 hour average and the 365/366 calendar system out of the raw planetary dynamics which create the daily and annual cycles. I will restate this one more time - if you believe in a value other than 24 hours for rotation of the Earth as a simple fact with a vast technical and historical reasoning in support,it is the astronomical equivalent to denying that men landed on the lunar surface for that always brings out a repulsive reaction that somebody could diminish a human achievement.A small group of people cannot maintain a 'sidereal time vs solar time' hoax as the history of clocks ,longitude,human adventure and the work of the great astronomers sprouts up through imaging and these little gems of history which show how humans adapt to the flexibility which the 24 hour/360 degree architecture allows - http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/longitude/page03.shtml The choice is not mine to turn this around from a tragedy into a triumph,the stream of history which shows the cruelty directed towards a Harrison or a Wegener,the slowness in adopting things like Calendar reform or correcting the Piltdown man hoax belongs to that same dark gloom which you and everyone here,at least presently, casts on the common history based on the simple fact for daily rotation.Nobody is a failure should they make a small or a large contribution to the common history of human achievement in this matter for independence is not always about physical bravery and courage. |
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